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AZ, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2016 1:57:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: satirpha1]
[#1]
Safeguy What are your thoughts on glass plate re-lockers systems they seem like a good way to defend against drill attacks using a flexible camera vr plate steel. I have used high quality Irwin Colbolt uni-bit which cuts though thick steel like butter with low cost flexible cameras seems like a good idea. Looks to me like this is not a feature offered except by TL-30 UL safe level is there any RSC safe which has a glass activated relocker?
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Posted: 7/15/2016 11:40:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By satirpha1:
Safeguy What are your thoughts on glass plate re-lockers systems they seem like a good way to defend against drill attacks using a flexible camera vr plate steel. I have used high quality Irwin Cobalt uni-bit which cuts though thick steel like butter with low cost flexible cameras seems like a good idea. Looks to me like this is not a feature offered except by TL-30 UL safe level is there any RSC safe which has a glass activated relocker? Glass has it's place, but my opinion is that it's not an adequate stand-alone barrier for a primary lock. There are some VERY easy ways to defeat glass plates (that I won't reveal here). Glass should be augmented by a good hard plate in safes that may face skilled attackers. The biggest thing I have against glass plates is the potential for them to break under normal use conditions. There are countless cases where a good door slam or transportation has caused them to fracture and result in a lockout. In fact, most Glass plate equipped safes have a means to neutralize the Glass triggered Relock Devices until the safe is installed. Note to the wise, when you have a safe installed with glass plates, make sure the installer enables the Relockers by removing the safety device(s). They are useless unless they are manually enabled. My guess is that a very large population of the glass equipped safes in service are still disabled. Unless you used a professional safe installer that knows these things, it's quite likely this installation setup step was not done.
Making a good glass plate is a science that many safe makers don't understand. It takes a lot of destructive testing to get this right, and it's not just a simple piece of glass. Very specific glass types and tempering processes need to be employed to make it correctly, and I will tell you most of them are wrong. Manufacturers like glass because it's cheap, not because it's better than a good composite high security hard plate that will shatter and eat up your Cobalt bits all day long. Even on simple RSC Gunsafes, making a good hard plate is a black art, and imports are considerably inferior in quality. We had one hell of a time trying to get our import safe vendors to meet our specifications, and we actually ended up sending US made plates to our safe vendors in China because they never made the grade. Most gunsafe importers are blind to the issues because they rarely face professional grade drilling tools. We chose not to educate the Chinese too much, and just add the cost of making a domestic part and sending to them to weld into our safes. I doubt ANY other US Safe Company does this.... On our TL-30 safes, the Glass Plate is only employed to protect the Auxiliary Keylock, and it is not used under the primary lock. This was a very conventional approach in high security safes for decades, but there has been a shift to use glass on primary locks with a few offshore manufacturers. I question that wisdom, but it's not uncommon for offshore safe companies to lack the understanding of how safes live in demanding commercial conditions. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2016 9:14:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: satirpha1]
[#3]
Thanks for your detailed response on glass plate re-lockers, and yes I understand hard plate will defeat drill bits I guess I was thinking glass would be a cheaper way then hard plate when it comes to RSC safes where tool resistance steel plate cost is too high. I have narrowed down to AMSEC RFX582820 or Brown safe HD-Series Model 7256 which is larger then the AMSEC and little cheaper but only TL-15 where the RFX582820 is TL-30 x 6. I'm also looking at Graffunder haven't done much research they seem to also build a good safe. I will be getting a professional dealer to install it no way Ill be able to move one of these safes around anyway.
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USA
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Posted: 7/25/2016 3:03:43 AM EDT
[#4]
TSG,
Thank you for this amazing thread! This thread has taught me a lot about what constitutes a REAL safe, what to look for, and how to protect my valuables. I've decided the BF2116 would work best for me, but I have 2 fire related questions I'd like to figure out before purchasing: 1) In case of fire, the documents need a water-tight container that can tolerate 350 degrees. Do you (or other forum members) have any suggestions for a watertight 8.5x11 container within the BF2116 dimensions (21x16.5x14.5)? Most containers/ziploc bags I looked at are either too big to fit in the BF2116 or too small for flat letter sized documents. 50cal ammo cans at first glance seemed perfect, but the interior measurements are just under 8x11. 2) I would like to secure hard copy electronic backups (ie, discs of family photos, hard drives, etc) in the BF safe. I understand there's no guarantees with another company's add-ons, but I couldn't find an AMSEC media fire safe option. I found 2 companies that make data safe inserts designed to reside inside a UL 350 fire safe (Phoenix MediaCare Inserts and ChubbSafes Media Insert), but they would not easily fit inside the BF2116 dimensions. I looked at the FireKing Stand Alone Media Vault Safe as it would fit vertically in the BF2116, but seems like a lot of wasted insulation space as it is designed as standalone media safe. Do you have a suggestion that would work for media storage inside the BF2116? I have a crazy idea: Can I store a flash drive in a vacuum insulated thermos like my Hydroflask (inside the UL 350 fire safe)? Lots of online testimonials and videos about people testing them with boiling hot water in freezing weather. If a ziploc bag can protect a document at 350 degrees, would the insulated thermos lid and seal survive and protect the sealed flash drive below 125? Sounds like a cool experiment for [someone else's] home oven! KS |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2016 7:18:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DUNWOODYMAN]
[#5]
Safeguy--
I am buying a Amvault 1814 and it should be here soon. I have a couple questions about mounting it down. I think it's too heavy to put upstairs so I am going to locate it on a concrete slab. I can not find much information about the hole used for securing the safe. I am looking at using the type of bolt below, as it seems to be about the strongest available. Speaking of strong, Assuming this safe is properly secured to a cured concrete slab, how hard would it be to remove? Is one hole enough?What is the size of the hole in this model Amvault? Recommended Depth? Bolt Size? Better type bolt? Sorry for all the questions but I can not find anything on this Amvault's bolt down system. HILTI HSL-3M12/5 HEAVY DUTY ANCHORS 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/28/2016 10:59:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Manduck]
[#6]
Safeguy,
I recently purchased an Amvault CFX 703620. I am really enjoying it but I do have a question about moisture/humidity. I purchased an 18" GoldenRod which I installed on the bottom towards the front of the door. As this is Texas, the land of heat and humidity, I also purchased one of the large Eva-Dry rechargeable dehumidifier units that I keep on the bottom shelf in the safe. It is this dehumidifier that has me worried. About every 3 weeks when I check it the indicator beads they show "wet" and I have to recharge the unit. I bought this purely as a piece of mind back up, figuring the GoldenRod would handle all humidity issues. Am I being a scaredy cat here? Is 3 weeks about normal for a dehumidifier to need to be recharged with a safe this size? None of my guns are showing any signs of rust. Thanks for your help. Andy |
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Posted: 7/28/2016 9:00:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kesersoze:
TSG, Thank you for this amazing thread! This thread has taught me a lot about what constitutes a REAL safe, what to look for, and how to protect my valuables. I've decided the BF2116 would work best for me, but I have 2 fire related questions I'd like to figure out before purchasing: 1) In case of fire, the documents need a water-tight container that can tolerate 350 degrees. Do you (or other forum members) have any suggestions for a watertight 8.5x11 container within the BF2116 dimensions (21x16.5x14.5)? Most containers/ziploc bags I looked at are either too big to fit in the BF2116 or too small for flat letter sized documents. 50cal ammo cans at first glance seemed perfect, but the interior measurements are just under 8x11. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kesersoze:
TSG, Thank you for this amazing thread! This thread has taught me a lot about what constitutes a REAL safe, what to look for, and how to protect my valuables. I've decided the BF2116 would work best for me, but I have 2 fire related questions I'd like to figure out before purchasing: 1) In case of fire, the documents need a water-tight container that can tolerate 350 degrees. Do you (or other forum members) have any suggestions for a watertight 8.5x11 container within the BF2116 dimensions (21x16.5x14.5)? Most containers/ziploc bags I looked at are either too big to fit in the BF2116 or too small for flat letter sized documents. 50cal ammo cans at first glance seemed perfect, but the interior measurements are just under 8x11. Snapware 2) I would like to secure hard copy electronic backups (ie, discs of family photos, hard drives, etc) in the BF safe. I understand there's no guarantees with another company's add-ons, but I couldn't find an AMSEC media fire safe option. I found 2 companies that make data safe inserts designed to reside inside a UL 350 fire safe (Phoenix MediaCare Inserts and ChubbSafes Media Insert), but they would not easily fit inside the BF2116 dimensions. I looked at the FireKing Stand Alone Media Vault Safe as it would fit vertically in the BF2116, but seems like a lot of wasted insulation space as it is designed as standalone media safe. Do you have a suggestion that would work for media storage inside the BF2116? I have a crazy idea: Can I store a flash drive in a vacuum insulated thermos like my Hydroflask (inside the UL 350 fire safe)? Lots of online testimonials and videos about people testing them with boiling hot water in freezing weather. If a ziploc bag can protect a document at 350 degrees, would the insulated thermos lid and seal survive and protect the sealed flash drive below 125? Sounds like a cool experiment for [someone else's] home oven!
KS The truth is, a fire rated document box will not perform the same inside a safe as it does in the flames of a fire. Most fire rated products rely on the rising temperatures to reach reaction temperatures (250-350ºF) tht at activates the sealing system. So, if you're looking at document containers of this nature, make sure it is an air-tight, pressure latching top with silicone seals. That should do very well inside a UL Listed Fire Safe to store magnetic and digital media. |
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Posted: 7/28/2016 9:06:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DUNWOODYMAN:
Safeguy-- I am buying a Amvault 1814 and it should be here soon. I have a couple questions about mounting it down. I think it's too heavy to put upstairs so I am going to locate it on a concrete slab. I can not find much information about the hole used for securing the safe. I am looking at using the type of bolt below, as it seems to be about the strongest available. Speaking of strong, Assuming this safe is properly secured to a cured concrete slab, how hard would it be to remove? Is one hole enough?What is the size of the hole in this model Amvault? Recommended Depth? Bolt Size? Better type bolt? Sorry for all the questions but I can not find anything on this Amvault's bolt down system. I can verify the bolt size, but I think it's 1/2" diameter, and the bolt length will depend on the anchor type. We tested several anchor bolt types, and the type you show are very good. I think the lifting force to break it free was around 9,000 lbs force. I will say this, I have never heard of an AMVault getting pried up when properly anchored. The skin of the safe gives way to concentrated high forces like a pry-bar (that's a good thing). Tearing little notches in the bottom edge of a safe like this gets you nowhere from an attack perspective... |
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Posted: 7/28/2016 9:27:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Manduck:
Safeguy, I recently purchased an Amvault CFX 703620. I am really enjoying it but I do have a question about moisture/humidity. I purchased an 18" GoldenRod which I installed on the bottom towards the front of the door. As this is Texas, the land of heat and humidity, I also purchased one of the large Eva-Dry rechargeable dehumidifier units that I keep on the bottom shelf in the safe. It is this dehumidifier that has me worried. About every 3 weeks when I check it the indicator beads they show "wet" and I have to recharge the unit. I bought this purely as a piece of mind back up, figuring the GoldenRod would handle all humidity issues. Am I being a scaredy cat here? Is 3 weeks about normal for a dehumidifier to need to be recharged with a safe this size? None of my guns are showing any signs of rust. Thanks for your help. Andy Well, you have two different systems working against each other, in a way. The idea of the GoldenRod is to elevate the temperature inside the safe slightly to prevent condensation. It doesn't really dehumidify the air, it simply raises the dew point so condensation won't happen. The EvaDry removes moisture from the air with a Desiccant with forced airflow, lowering the relative humidity. In this case, there is an environment that is not air-tight. Nature takes it's course, and low humidity is abnormal in an environment of high humidity. The result is an atmospheric differential or "pressure" to sustain an equilibrium. So, as you remove the water in the air inside of a safe that is not air-tight, the differential promotes a circulation of the air in and out of the safe. So, the EvaDry never catches up. You are effectively dehumidifying the room, the house, the world. A Desiccant type of moisture control system only works well when you have very good soft-closure sealing around the door. Although we have not studied this carefully, the physics dictate that the GoldenRod probably promotes this circulation. As heat rises in the safe, a low pressure to high pressure gradient is developed, hence drawing in cold air at the bottom while exhausting warm air at the top. This would put even more strain on a desiccant drying device. It is my opinion, based on testing, observations, and thermodynamic principles, that the two systems should not be combined. The GoldenRod should do an adequate job alone, working to just prevent condensation. But, if you want to use an EvaDry type of device, then you should take measures to seal the door closure. Regular automotive door seal material, preferably a soft silicone compound, would stabilize the interior humidity after the safe is closed for a short period, and prevent the influx of fresh humid air... a Desiccant inside a sealed safe should last for months without recharging. There, make sense? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 7/28/2016 11:02:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DUNWOODYMAN]
[#10]
Quote HistoryI can verify the bolt size, but I think it's 1/2" diameter, and the bolt length will depend on the anchor type.
We tested several anchor bolt types, and the type you show are very good. I think the lifting force to break it free was around 9,000 lbs force. . Thanks for the response! I plan on using Hilti Anchors unless you know of a stronger one. Knowing that we are working with only one hole, I want the strongest I can get. It's all a little confusing so if you were buying an Anchor for a one hole 1814 off Hilti's site, what would you personally purchase?I think your input will help a lot of people weed through all different types. So, I have placed two Hilti URL's below. One leads to the type Anchors that I am looking at. The other is written for someone like yourself. I don't have the information needed to pick the correct one for installation. I would need to know how much safe material is above the floor, bolt hole size etc..This information will allow an engineer to pick the correct bolt out of the series for attaching the safe to a normal house slab. It may be that these are too large for a 4 in house slab and in that case please direct me to another on the site if possible. I know that your testing was done with PROPERLY attached bolts but it's really difficult to know what's best. BTW. The time and effort you take in answering our questions is truly awesome. You may not be speaking "officially" for AMSEC in these threads, but the honesty and intelligence shown in your replies, proves that I have chosen the right safe company. Good Job! HSL-3-B SERIES HILTI SPEC SHEET FOR INSTALL |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/29/2016 10:43:57 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Well, you have two different systems working against each other, in a way. The idea of the GoldenRod is to elevate the temperature inside the safe slightly to prevent condensation. It doesn't really dehumidify the air, it simply raises the dew point so condensation won't happen. The EvaDry removes moisture from the air with a Desiccant with forced airflow, lowering the relative humidity. In this case, there is an environment that is not air-tight. Nature takes it's course, and low humidity is abnormal in an environment of high humidity. The result is an atmospheric differential or "pressure" to sustain an equilibrium. So, as you remove the water in the air inside of a safe that is not air-tight, the differential promotes a circulation of the air in and out of the safe. So, the EvaDry never catches up. You are effectively dehumidifying the room, the house, the world. A Desiccant type of moisture control system only works well when you have very good soft-closure sealing around the door. Although we have not studied this carefully, the physics dictate that the GoldenRod probably promotes this circulation. As heat rises in the safe, a low pressure to high pressure gradient is developed, hence drawing in cold air at the bottom while exhausting warm air at the top. This would put even more strain on a desiccant drying device. It is my opinion, based on testing, observations, and thermodynamic principles, that the two systems should not be combined. The GoldenRod should do an adequate job alone, working to just prevent condensation. But, if you want to use an EvaDry type of device, then you should take measures to seal the door closure. Regular automotive door seal material, preferably a soft silicone compound, would stabilize the interior humidity after the safe is closed for a short period, and prevent the influx of fresh humid air... a Desiccant inside a sealed safe should last for months without recharging. There, make sense? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By Manduck:
Safeguy, I recently purchased an Amvault CFX 703620. I am really enjoying it but I do have a question about moisture/humidity. I purchased an 18" GoldenRod which I installed on the bottom towards the front of the door. As this is Texas, the land of heat and humidity, I also purchased one of the large Eva-Dry rechargeable dehumidifier units that I keep on the bottom shelf in the safe. It is this dehumidifier that has me worried. About every 3 weeks when I check it the indicator beads they show "wet" and I have to recharge the unit. I bought this purely as a piece of mind back up, figuring the GoldenRod would handle all humidity issues. Am I being a scaredy cat here? Is 3 weeks about normal for a dehumidifier to need to be recharged with a safe this size? None of my guns are showing any signs of rust. Thanks for your help. Andy Well, you have two different systems working against each other, in a way. The idea of the GoldenRod is to elevate the temperature inside the safe slightly to prevent condensation. It doesn't really dehumidify the air, it simply raises the dew point so condensation won't happen. The EvaDry removes moisture from the air with a Desiccant with forced airflow, lowering the relative humidity. In this case, there is an environment that is not air-tight. Nature takes it's course, and low humidity is abnormal in an environment of high humidity. The result is an atmospheric differential or "pressure" to sustain an equilibrium. So, as you remove the water in the air inside of a safe that is not air-tight, the differential promotes a circulation of the air in and out of the safe. So, the EvaDry never catches up. You are effectively dehumidifying the room, the house, the world. A Desiccant type of moisture control system only works well when you have very good soft-closure sealing around the door. Although we have not studied this carefully, the physics dictate that the GoldenRod probably promotes this circulation. As heat rises in the safe, a low pressure to high pressure gradient is developed, hence drawing in cold air at the bottom while exhausting warm air at the top. This would put even more strain on a desiccant drying device. It is my opinion, based on testing, observations, and thermodynamic principles, that the two systems should not be combined. The GoldenRod should do an adequate job alone, working to just prevent condensation. But, if you want to use an EvaDry type of device, then you should take measures to seal the door closure. Regular automotive door seal material, preferably a soft silicone compound, would stabilize the interior humidity after the safe is closed for a short period, and prevent the influx of fresh humid air... a Desiccant inside a sealed safe should last for months without recharging. There, make sense? TSG, Once again you come to the rescue. What you said makes perfect sense now that I take a step back and really think things through. This is my first safe and in my attempt to make things as "perfect" as possible I didn't really think about the underlying issues. I will yank the EvaDry and go with the just the GoldenRod. Thanks again for taking your time to help us plebeians out. It is really appreciated. 
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/2/2016 4:54:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Posted some of my other question in my own thread but thought I would try here you for more help. Bought a BF6032 recently on several people recommendations and frankly some of your postings here in my research. Really excited for my safe upgrade. I got the local safe/locksmith guru setup to deliver Friday. My main question is that I really want him tto switch dial lock out for digital for convenience. What questions should I ask when taking to him about this and what are my options? This guy isn local for many years and comes recommend but I have never used him. Do I need to have him stick to locks only sold through Amsec? S&G seems to get mentioned a lot but I don't know a lot about safes or locks and I want a quality lock and work done correctly. Thanks.
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Posted: 8/3/2016 9:19:12 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKDoc:
Posted some of my other question in my own thread but thought I would try here you for more help. Bought a BF6032 recently on several people recommendations and frankly some of your postings here in my research. Really excited for my safe upgrade. I got the local safe/locksmith guru setup to deliver Friday. My main question is that I really want him tto switch dial lock out for digital for convenience. What questions should I ask when taking to him about this and what are my options? This guy isn local for many years and comes recommend but I have never used him. Do I need to have him stick to locks only sold through Amsec? S&G seems to get mentioned a lot but I don't know a lot about safes or locks and I want a quality lock and work done correctly. Thanks. There are a lot of options out there. Many look nice, many have issues, some are good, others are great. Listen to your safe tech, and whatever he recommends, make sure he stands behind it long term. If you get a lemon, it should be understood that he will make it right, whatever the remedy might be. I'm not here to sell any product, but I will give my opinion based on facts and experience. When it comes to e-locks, our service statistics show the ESL10XL has the lowest failure rate of all the digital locks we install, by a large margin. My advice is to work with your service tech, and weigh your options. Google is your friend, and when he says you want Brand X, read about it. The good and the bad will be evident, and your choice will be less traumatic. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/3/2016 1:27:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Thank you. Appreciate your input. Another question. Safe will be in an attached garage room that is climate controlled 65-70 degrees 60-65 humidity. Floor is bare concrete. Do you generally recommend safe be elevated above concrete floor on platform or rubber barrier between floor and safe to protect from moisture and temp swings? Will have golden rod and some rechargeable dessicators packs.
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Posted: 8/4/2016 5:22:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKDoc:
Thank you. Appreciate your input. Another question. Safe will be in an attached garage room that is climate controlled 65-70 degrees 60-65 humidity. Floor is bare concrete. Do you generally recommend safe be elevated above concrete floor on platform or rubber barrier between floor and safe to protect from moisture and temp swings? Will have golden rod and some rechargeable dessicators packs. While it's not really necessary to elevate a safe, it is always a good idea if there is a risk that water might get under the safe. Even though a safe bottom is painted, that paint gets scratched off in places by transport and installation, and if that water is left trapped under the safe, it will start to rust. Many people like to use Hockey Pucks as pads, placed under the anchor holes so that the anchoring drills thru the Pucks to keep them in place and protect the anchors from attack. The Pucks are made from a very durable plastic, a good elevation and will last forever. |
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Posted: 8/6/2016 1:07:43 PM EDT
[#16]
What is your opinion of the Cannon S40 safe ?
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Posted: 8/8/2016 2:49:15 PM EDT
[#17]
My father in law has a 25 or 30 gun AMSEC (not sure of the model) with the ESL5 digital lock. He just finished reading "30 Seconds After" and he is trying to find out if that lock would survive an EMP. Anyone know off the top of their head? I suggested he upgrade to a hybrid digital and mechanical that I saw on the AMSEC website.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 8/11/2016 2:04:42 AM EDT
[#18]
TSG, I hope alls well out in Cali! On another thread we were discussing some new(to a lot of us anyway)information about a scary new hack that just came out of Defcon last week. It has to do with a side channel hack that was shown to defeat some of the most popular E-Locks out there. Frank was kind enough to chime in and confirm the hack and shared that it's been known in professional circles for awhile now. He even told us that it's no longer just a hack, but in fact, it is now a tool that can be used to unlock electronic locks in a snap. That's a little scary for some of us and I am sure you already know what I am talking about. How does your line of E-Locks protect from this hack, if they even do?
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Posted: 8/11/2016 10:15:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DUNWOODYMAN:
TSG, I hope alls well out in Cali! On another thread we were discussing some new(to a lot of us anyway)information about a scary new hack that just came out of Defcon last week. It has to do with a side channel hack that was shown to defeat some of the most popular E-Locks out there. Frank was kind enough to chime in and confirm the hack and shared that it's been known in professional circles for awhile now. He even told us that it's no longer just a hack, but in fact, it is now a tool that can be used to unlock electronic locks in a snap. That's a little scary for some of us and I am sure you already know what I am talking about. How does your line of E-Locks protect from this hack, if they even do? If you check the website of the guys making the Taylor Tech tool, you will notice the ESL family of locks are NOT included in the list of brands that are vulnerable to the hack technique employed (they call it "lost code recovery"). They only list ESL models in the diagnostic and testing group, which do not provide a bypass. I anticipated this hack method in the original design plans for the KPL2000 way back in the early 90's, so we have counter-measures that prevent the approach they employ from working. I won't provide details on how the technique actually works, but it is alarming to note that all those other lock brands did not figure out what we did and copy it long ago. Remember, AMSEC brought the first e-lock to the safe market long before any of those other brands. We did extensive research, planned for every conceivable hack approach, and designed circuitry and firmware to prevent those methods, even ones that seemed unrealistic at the time. Some thought I was hyper-paranoid, but that work has finally paid off after more that two decades. Those protection scenarios have been employed in every subsequent generation of e-lock we have developed. The others... well they were all developing under extreme pressure in catch-up mode, copying and not thinking about all the twisted ways that someone might try to defeat these devices. There are other e-lock hacks that you have not heard about, but rest assured the ESL family of locks have proven to be the gold standard when it comes to electronic and mechanical attacks. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 8/11/2016 11:10:13 AM EDT
[#20]
Wonderful Information! Thanks!
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GA, USA
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Posted: 8/12/2016 12:43:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DUNWOODYMAN]
[#21]
TSG...I had asked you about choosing one of the Hilti Anchors above and was hoping you could point me in the right direction. I have an Amvault 1814 in route and I am unclear as to which size/style will work..One of your engineers sent me a drawing but it did not include the measurements of the bolt down hole. (Both diameter and depth) It's going into a slab and there are different kinds.. Is there one you know of that works awesome..Model number? It does not have to be Hilti I guess..There are some many types within brands and I have no issue paying top dollar for primo quality..
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Posted: 8/12/2016 9:41:15 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
If you check the website of the guys making the Taylor Tech tool, you will notice the ESL family of locks are NOT included in the list of brands that are vulnerable to the hack technique employed (they call it "lost code recovery"). They only list ESL models in the diagnostic and testing group, which do not provide a bypass. I anticipated this hack method in the original design plans for the KPL2000 way back in the early 90's, so we have counter-measures that prevent the approach they employ from working. I won't provide details on how the technique actually works, but it is alarming to note that all those other lock brands did not figure out what we did and copy it long ago. Remember, AMSEC brought the first e-lock to the safe market long before any of those other brands. We did extensive research, planned for every conceivable hack approach, and designed circuitry and firmware to prevent those methods, even ones that seemed unrealistic at the time. Some thought I was hyper-paranoid, but that work has finally paid off after more that two decades. Those protection scenarios have been employed in every subsequent generation of e-lock we have developed. The others... well they were all developing under extreme pressure in catch-up mode, copying and not thinking about all the twisted ways that someone might try to defeat these devices. There are other e-lock hacks that you have not heard about, but rest assured the ESL family of locks have proven to be the gold standard when it comes to electronic and mechanical attacks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By DUNWOODYMAN:
TSG, I hope alls well out in Cali! On another thread we were discussing some new(to a lot of us anyway)information about a scary new hack that just came out of Defcon last week. It has to do with a side channel hack that was shown to defeat some of the most popular E-Locks out there. Frank was kind enough to chime in and confirm the hack and shared that it's been known in professional circles for awhile now. He even told us that it's no longer just a hack, but in fact, it is now a tool that can be used to unlock electronic locks in a snap. That's a little scary for some of us and I am sure you already know what I am talking about. How does your line of E-Locks protect from this hack, if they even do? If you check the website of the guys making the Taylor Tech tool, you will notice the ESL family of locks are NOT included in the list of brands that are vulnerable to the hack technique employed (they call it "lost code recovery"). They only list ESL models in the diagnostic and testing group, which do not provide a bypass. I anticipated this hack method in the original design plans for the KPL2000 way back in the early 90's, so we have counter-measures that prevent the approach they employ from working. I won't provide details on how the technique actually works, but it is alarming to note that all those other lock brands did not figure out what we did and copy it long ago. Remember, AMSEC brought the first e-lock to the safe market long before any of those other brands. We did extensive research, planned for every conceivable hack approach, and designed circuitry and firmware to prevent those methods, even ones that seemed unrealistic at the time. Some thought I was hyper-paranoid, but that work has finally paid off after more that two decades. Those protection scenarios have been employed in every subsequent generation of e-lock we have developed. The others... well they were all developing under extreme pressure in catch-up mode, copying and not thinking about all the twisted ways that someone might try to defeat these devices. There are other e-lock hacks that you have not heard about, but rest assured the ESL family of locks have proven to be the gold standard when it comes to electronic and mechanical attacks. I was looking at the Amsec website, and I can't find any listing for the locks themselves. If someone with another brand of RSC wanted to upgrade to one of the ESL models, would it be a simple swap that a homeowner could do? Are the locks even available alone? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 8/12/2016 1:24:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Volstag.... I can answer that one, yes, you can buy the ESL 10 XL on the open market. It has a standard footprint that is easily exchangeable with whatever current LOCK you have on your RSC. A homeowner can do this very simply ..
Oh by the way, I noticed on AMSEC's website that their lock section is down. It's been that way for over a week for some reason and I forgot to mention it to the safe guy... |
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Posted: 8/12/2016 7:56:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DUNWOODYMAN:
Volstag.... I can answer that one, yes, you can buy the ESL 10 XL on the open market. It has a standard footprint that is easily exchangeable with whatever current LOCK you have on your RSC. A homeowner can do this very simply .. Oh by the way, I noticed on AMSEC's website that their lock section is down. It's been that way for over a week for some reason and I forgot to mention it to the safe guy... Thank you! |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 8/14/2016 4:56:46 PM EDT
[#25]
TSG, I have a amsec model 603021 that came with a dial lock. I would like to change it over to a touchpad lock. How hard is it for the homeowner to do and we're can I purchase a amsec keypad lock?
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/14/2016 5:12:11 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fro1911Nut:
TSG, I have a amsec model 603021 that came with a dial lock. I would like to change it over to a touchpad lock. How hard is it for the homeowner to do and we're can I purchase a amsec keypad lock? Until TSG replies you can check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zFTRnV0pYw |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2016 3:28:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
If you check the website of the guys making the Taylor Tech tool, you will notice the ESL family of locks are NOT included in the list of brands that are vulnerable to the hack technique employed (they call it "lost code recovery"). They only list ESL models in the diagnostic and testing group, which do not provide a bypass. I anticipated this hack method in the original design plans for the KPL2000 way back in the early 90's, so we have counter-measures that prevent the approach they employ from working. I won't provide details on how the technique actually works, but it is alarming to note that all those other lock brands did not figure out what we did and copy it long ago. Remember, AMSEC brought the first e-lock to the safe market long before any of those other brands. We did extensive research, planned for every conceivable hack approach, and designed circuitry and firmware to prevent those methods, even ones that seemed unrealistic at the time. Some thought I was hyper-paranoid, but that work has finally paid off after more that two decades. Those protection scenarios have been employed in every subsequent generation of e-lock we have developed. The others... well they were all developing under extreme pressure in catch-up mode, copying and not thinking about all the twisted ways that someone might try to defeat these devices. There are other e-lock hacks that you have not heard about, but rest assured the ESL family of locks have proven to be the gold standard when it comes to electronic and mechanical attacks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By DUNWOODYMAN:
TSG, I hope alls well out in Cali! On another thread we were discussing some new(to a lot of us anyway)information about a scary new hack that just came out of Defcon last week. It has to do with a side channel hack that was shown to defeat some of the most popular E-Locks out there. Frank was kind enough to chime in and confirm the hack and shared that it's been known in professional circles for awhile now. He even told us that it's no longer just a hack, but in fact, it is now a tool that can be used to unlock electronic locks in a snap. That's a little scary for some of us and I am sure you already know what I am talking about. How does your line of E-Locks protect from this hack, if they even do? If you check the website of the guys making the Taylor Tech tool, you will notice the ESL family of locks are NOT included in the list of brands that are vulnerable to the hack technique employed (they call it "lost code recovery"). They only list ESL models in the diagnostic and testing group, which do not provide a bypass. I anticipated this hack method in the original design plans for the KPL2000 way back in the early 90's, so we have counter-measures that prevent the approach they employ from working. I won't provide details on how the technique actually works, but it is alarming to note that all those other lock brands did not figure out what we did and copy it long ago. Remember, AMSEC brought the first e-lock to the safe market long before any of those other brands. We did extensive research, planned for every conceivable hack approach, and designed circuitry and firmware to prevent those methods, even ones that seemed unrealistic at the time. Some thought I was hyper-paranoid, but that work has finally paid off after more that two decades. Those protection scenarios have been employed in every subsequent generation of e-lock we have developed. The others... well they were all developing under extreme pressure in catch-up mode, copying and not thinking about all the twisted ways that someone might try to defeat these devices. There are other e-lock hacks that you have not heard about, but rest assured the ESL family of locks have proven to be the gold standard when it comes to electronic and mechanical attacks. IMO... This is a huge piece of info. Thanks for sharing! |
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Posted: 8/15/2016 5:24:16 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fro1911Nut:
TSG, I have a amsec model 603021 that came with a dial lock. I would like to change it over to a touchpad lock. How hard is it for the homeowner to do and we're can I purchase a amsec keypad lock? Just Google "where to buy an ESL10XL" and you'll find plenty of places that will sell the kit. As NinjaZX6R showed us, the install is not terribly hard to do. But, do consider the idea that if something goes wrong, you are pretty much screwed. If you have a reputable Locksmith or Safe Tech do the work, you have someone to back up the install and the product. Food for thought.... |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2016 7:59:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Just Google "where to buy an ESL10XL" and you'll find plenty of places that will sell the kit. As NinjaZX6R showed us, the install is not terribly hard to do. But, do consider the idea that if something goes wrong, you are pretty much screwed. If you have a reputable Locksmith or Safe Tech do the work, you have someone to back up the install and the product. Food for thought.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By Fro1911Nut:
TSG, I have a amsec model 603021 that came with a dial lock. I would like to change it over to a touchpad lock. How hard is it for the homeowner to do and we're can I purchase a amsec keypad lock? Just Google "where to buy an ESL10XL" and you'll find plenty of places that will sell the kit. As NinjaZX6R showed us, the install is not terribly hard to do. But, do consider the idea that if something goes wrong, you are pretty much screwed. If you have a reputable Locksmith or Safe Tech do the work, you have someone to back up the install and the product. Food for thought.... Thank you! |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2016 9:33:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Just Google "where to buy an ESL10XL" and you'll find plenty of places that will sell the kit. As NinjaZX6R showed us, the install is not terribly hard to do. But, do consider the idea that if something goes wrong, you are pretty much screwed. If you have a reputable Locksmith or Safe Tech do the work, you have someone to back up the install and the product. Food for thought.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By Fro1911Nut:
TSG, I have a amsec model 603021 that came with a dial lock. I would like to change it over to a touchpad lock. How hard is it for the homeowner to do and we're can I purchase a amsec keypad lock? Just Google "where to buy an ESL10XL" and you'll find plenty of places that will sell the kit. As NinjaZX6R showed us, the install is not terribly hard to do. But, do consider the idea that if something goes wrong, you are pretty much screwed. If you have a reputable Locksmith or Safe Tech do the work, you have someone to back up the install and the product. Food for thought.... As I was watching the video I was thinking, 'hey, I can do that on my Dad's safe' (where some of my guns are kept), right up to the point where he talks about not screwing up reinstalling the re-locker because if you do and it fires it's, write the check time. I'll just call the local locksmith that's an Amsec dealer to get a quote for parts/install. I'm researching getting my own safe and it looks like Amsec for me, I just wish they made one with similar dimensions to the newer wider but more shallow depth safes. |
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Posted: 8/17/2016 3:21:32 PM EDT
[#31]
Couple questions and thanks toTheSafeGuy for this great thread! I'm looking to increasing the fire rating on my Amsec BF series. I see
what I think is a palusol type 100 seal on the frame and door to block smoke & heat. Considering the gap between the door and frame. Would putting the below gasketing before the palusol help or hinder? I'm afraid it would hinder since it wouldn't allow the heat to transfer to the palusol enough to allow it to expand.. Curious on what your thoughts are on this? 17 ft. SiliconSeal Adhesive-Backed Fire/Smoke Gasketing in black finish Second question seems in my lay opinion a no brainer and something I've already done years ago. I'm thinking of adding more and seeking validation before expending more effort. Would putting layers of Gypsum Board around the outside of the safe decrease the heat transferred to the safe significantly as the house burns down around it? Especially the top of the safe since heat rises and the roof will come down on it as the house burns. Gold Bond® XP® Fire-Shield® Gypsum Board "The gypsum core will not support combustion or transmit temperatures greatly in excess of 212°F (100°C) until completely calcined, a slow process. " |
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Posted: 8/18/2016 12:47:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackOps_1:
Couple questions and thanks toTheSafeGuy for this great thread! I'm looking to increasing the fire rating on my Amsec BF series. I see what I think is a palusol type 100 seal on the frame and door to block smoke & heat. Considering the gap between the door and frame. Would putting the below gasketing before the palusol help or hinder? I'm afraid it would hinder since it wouldn't allow the heat to transfer to the palusol enough to allow it to expand.. Curious on what your thoughts are on this? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BlackOps_1:
Couple questions and thanks toTheSafeGuy for this great thread! I'm looking to increasing the fire rating on my Amsec BF series. I see what I think is a palusol type 100 seal on the frame and door to block smoke & heat. Considering the gap between the door and frame. Would putting the below gasketing before the palusol help or hinder? I'm afraid it would hinder since it wouldn't allow the heat to transfer to the palusol enough to allow it to expand.. Curious on what your thoughts are on this? The BF Safe already has a "smoke seal" that acts as a low-range fire barrier. It is behind the Palusol seal already, so that the intumescent seal is exposed and allowed react before the soft seal fails. I pioneered this design concept with the original BF security safe line back in the mid-90's. The soft seal is Silicone foam, which has a temperature tolerance well above the reaction temperature of the intumescent seals. I should have patented this two-stage design at the time, as it was a new concept back then, too bad. Second question seems in my lay opinion a no brainer and something I've already done years ago. I'm thinking of adding more and seeking validation before expending more effort. Would putting layers of Gypsum Board around the outside of the safe decrease the heat transferred to the safe significantly as the house burns down around it? Especially the top of the safe since heat rises and the roof will come down on it as the house burns. You would think that anything you do to delay the exposure will improve performance. However, without extensive testing, there is a potential for additional insulation surrounding a safe to actually work against you. If your encasement prevents the proper door seal reactions, it could conceivably allow super-heated gasses to enter the safe. There is a lot going on in a fire that isn't obvious. The key concern is that there is never a perfect door seal... we know that and don't even try to make it perfect. To manage that reality, the steam that is generated inside the safe drives a continuous exit of gasses from the inside of the safe out thru any seal breaches. This prevents the influx of super-heated gasses from entering. If the body is not exposed to enough heat to start calcination (out-gassing steam), then you don't have a steam barrier. It's a complex timing issue. This gets pretty technical, and I don't want to educate competitors. Fire safe design is not something you can Google and go get your rating. It takes years of trial and error to develop a sound technical understanding of the thermodynamic systems in play, evolve safe construction techniques, get the right fill design and employ a good seal geometry. We hold this hard found intellectual property close. So, I guess what I am saying is that your enclosure may or may not help. I can't be sure it will be much better, and there is the potential for that additional insulation to actually diminish the fire resistance from the perspective of contents damage. My gut says it's probably better, but my experience says that you may get a surprise and find it inhibited the proper response. The devil is in the details... |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:36:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Maybe I missed it in an earlier post but is there a translation for the model numbers? I.E. BF724OHD
Also, the retailer here in Austin, TX (cothrons.com) only offers three lines. HS, BF, FV. Not really sure the big differences between them. I'm looking for a residential gun safe, not really concerned about size but the door frame it has to go through is 31" wide by 80" high, concrete floor for bolting down, would like 24 rifle model if able to fit through the door and this will be my first safe but would like to buy one and be done. Live in a home so it won't be moving after install. Thanks in advance. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 6:48:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By obongo1977:
Maybe I missed it in an earlier post but is there a translation for the model numbers? I.E. BF724OHD Also, the retailer here in Austin, TX (cothrons.com) only offers three lines. HS, BF, FV. Not really sure the big differences between them. I'm looking for a residential gun safe, not really concerned about size but the door frame it has to go through is 31" wide by 80" high, concrete floor for bolting down, would like 24 rifle model if able to fit through the door and this will be my first safe but would like to buy one and be done. Live in a home so it won't be moving after install. Thanks in advance. BF means Burglary-Fire, 7240 is the external H x W dimensions in inches, and HD means a heavy duty 4 gauge liner. We actually trademarked the BF name when we came up with that in the late 90's, as it was a unique achievement to have a combination burglary rated and fire rated product at the time. The differences between HS, BF, and FV are pretty dramatic. Download the gunsafe catalog from the amsecusa website to see a comparison table. In the catalog, all of the safe outside dimensions are given, so you can see the pass-thru door opening necessary. Keep in mind safes can be moved sideways, and most all models will fit thru the 31 x 80 opening. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 10:39:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Awesome! Thanks
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MD, USA
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Posted: 8/25/2016 10:52:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Dear TheSafeGuy:
I too want to begin by thanking you for all the *time and effort* that you have put in here over a number of years. I will start by paying you, my highest compliment—you not only “know your stuff,” but you also know how to “teach your stuff” to others! You saved me from purchasing a safe from The-Brand-That-Must-Not-Be-Named (TBTMNBN). I was skeptical when I first found this thread. Of course, I was seeking confirmation that TBTMNBN was the best choice out there…because I had decided to buy one. And yet when I almost ordered one a month ago, I hesitated. As I will explain, fire protection is more important to me than burglary protection and, one thing continued to haunt me. How was it that TBTMNBN had discovered something that no other company had learned of *and that no one else emulated?* I am a biologist, not an engineer, but I know that in competitive fields it does not take long for people to copy a good idea. The pieces all fell into place when I found the graphs of furnace testing that you posted. TBTMNBN heated up just like you had predicted. And I remembered that concrete curing is very exothermic, so it made sense that the calcination decay process you described would be highly endothermic. And there it is. A nice inflection point for the BF safe profile around 200 degrees!! Isn’t it marvelous how actual data can answer questions and trump opinions? I have a few questions with which I hope that you can help me—but I wanted my introduction here to be an unabashed song to your praises! Three cheers for TheSafeGuy!!! Nanjing-Too |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:07:11 PM EDT
[#37]
post for saving
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WV, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2016 5:54:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6SpeedBowtie]
[#38]
I echo the sentiments of appreciation for all of the fantastic information in this thread. It has taught me SO very much about safes.
I started my search by looking visiting a local Winchester safe dealer and left rather interested in the Legacy series. I then dove into my research (as I usually do; my wife likes to mock how I do extensive research into nearly every purchase). I then took a look at the Browning Safe Medallion series safe and left enamored with the interior bits. Attending a local gun show, I checked out Liberty and Fort Knox, then took a trip to the AmSec dealer closest to my office and saw a BF6024 With no local safes to physically touch, I called to learn more about Summit and Brown Safes. I have a hard time dropping 5 large+ on something I can't experience before spending the money -- I just can't see spending that much money blind. The fit and finish on the AmSec is outstanding. So much of what I could find to be key seemed to apply to AmSec's BF. I have what I'd call a realistic budget, but there are limits, LOL! With that said, I've decided to pull the trigger on a BF7240! When I called in the order to my local dealer, he called AmSec to check inventory. AmSec sales suggested that if I go for a dial lock, the 6630 is the better choice. I am leaning in this direction right now (I know the EXL10XL is a very dependable lock, but I just innately trust the mechanical a bit more than the electronics). Is the 6630 an upgrade worth the spend?? does it offer improved reliability? Thanks again for all of the great information. This thread will be my go-to reference source for anyone looking to buy a safe! Cheers! |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 6:21:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 6SpeedBowtie:
AmSec sales suggested that if I go for a dial lock, the 6630 is the better choice. I am leaning in this direction right now (I know the EXL10XL is a very dependable lock, but I just innately trust the mechanical a bit more than the electronics). Is the 6630 an upgrade worth the spend?? does it offer improved reliability? As mechanical combo locks go, that S&G 6630 is the best lock in the Group 2M class. The standard mechanical lock is a Lock1One, aka Big Red. The 6630 is a refined assembly that sports machined brass parts, as opposed to die cast zinc and stamped parts in the lower quality products. Reliability differential between the Big Red and S&G is very small, with the S&G 6630 owning the best lock award by a small margin. Not knowing the price difference, I would opt for the S&G if we are talking about a small bump. |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2016 9:44:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Thank you TSG!! As always, supported by technical logic that contributes to enhanced knowledge.
Cheers! |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2016 10:21:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Dear TSG,
I am trying to solve a problem similar to “kesersoze”. I have some precious papers that I would like to keep safe (and preferably dry.) I am losing my safe deposit box at the end of September. I have had no luck finding a replacement. I was told by one bank chain that they are “getting out of the safe deposit box business.” I have a daughter born in China and I was storing her adoption papers in that safe deposit box. So suddenly my leisurely search for a fireproof gun safe has acquired a new sense of urgency. All of these adopted Chinese girls are, by definition, “abandoned.” My daughter was found in a cardboard box outside the gates of a middle school in Guangdong province in Southern China. The only origin story that she will ever know is in that stack of papers. Fortunately, that my new mission led me to find this TSG thread and saved me from the purchase of a TBTMNBN safe. I am now looking at a BF6636 (or BF6030) and plan to put the most precious stack of papers inside of a FireKing Waterproof SureSeal SS104 chest that has a UL 1 hour fire rating (http://amzn.to/2bJ7nps). This 56-pound beast must be stored flat for the fire rating to be valid (the lid must weigh 20 pounds, or more, and that weight is focused on a silicon seal.) I hope that Amsec will build me an interior in the BF6636 with 20” open on one half with the remainder of the space set up for long guns (I have only four). This would allow me to put the SS104 flat on the floor of the BF6636. I will probably buy a FireKing MediaVault to set on top of the SS104 (http://amzn.to/2bRB2Pl) to store hard drives in. |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2016 10:24:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Dear TSG (continued),
My question for you is, within the BF series, is there a difference in longevity of the fire resistance between the small and the large safes with the advantage going to the smaller? Assuming the that the DryLight thickness is the same in each safe, it seems that small safes have more material protecting each cubic foot of space. Using square feet of wall space as a proxy for the amount of DryLight in each safe, the BF6024 has 3.4 square feet of wall protecting each cubic foot of space while the big BF7250 has only 2.03 ft^2/ ft^3. Should I try to buy the smallest practical safe to get the best (longest lasting) protection? What about height? Do tall safes provide a larger “cool zone” at the bottom than small safes? |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2016 11:01:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Dear TSG community,
I know that there are others here are interested storing papers, photographs, USB drives, hard disk drives, etc. inside their BF model safe while protecting them from the steam as well as the fire. My purchase of the monstrous 56-pound FireKing Waterproof SureSeal SS104 chest that has a UL 1 hour fire rating (http://amzn.to/2bJ7nps) is to support my effort in that direction. To my surprise  , when I opened the chest I found a desiccant pack and a paper pamphlet. It was not a surprise to find a desiccant pack, they are in everything. The surprise was that the pamphlet felt…damp . I tossed a digital hygrometer inside the chest, closed it up, and went to bed. This morning the hygrometer read 86% humidity! Wondering if I broke it when I threw it into the chest, I removed it and set it on the kitchen counter. In 20 minutes it read 47%.
I now suspected that the desiccant pack was not functioning. I set the oven to 250 degrees and then weighed the pack—it was approximately 128 grams. Adjusting the oven to a final temperature of 245 degrees (the Tyvek bag holding the silica gel begins to degrade above 250), I baked the pack for 2.5 hours and let it cool with the oven. The pack now weighed 98 grams—a loss of 30 grams of water that had been adsorbed to the silica gel. This is 31% of the weight of the silica gel—close to the theoretical maximum that it can adsorb. I then put the pack, the pamphlet, and the digital hygrometer back in the chest. Three hours later it is reading 22% relative humidity! 
This pack had probably been laying around in the factory in hot, humid, Shenzen and was already saturated at the time it was put into the chest. Don’t depend on the desiccant packs that come in these units until you have had a chance to bake them dry. (I labelled the pack “98 grams.” From now on I can just toss it on the kitchen scale to see how much water it has adsorbed in order to decide when I should bake it again to recharge it.) |
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Posted: 9/3/2016 3:10:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nanjing-Too:
Dear TSG (continued), My question for you is, within the BF series, is there a difference in longevity of the fire resistance between the small and the large safes with the advantage going to the smaller? Assuming the that the DryLight thickness is the same in each safe, it seems that small safes have more material protecting each cubic foot of space. Using square feet of wall space as a proxy for the amount of DryLight in each safe, the BF6024 has 3.4 square feet of wall protecting each cubic foot of space while the big BF7250 has only 2.03 ft^2/ ft^3. Should I try to buy the smallest practical safe to get the best (longest lasting) protection? What about height? Do tall safes provide a larger “cool zone” at the bottom than small safes? So, your asking a lot of technical questions that require technical answers. I have to be a little less than thorough in my answers, as to protect the hard-earned knowledge of firesafe technology. However, there is a scaling component to the volume/area of the safe body. We have test data that tells us there is a shallow non-linear increase in performance as the safe gets smaller. I can't be too specific, but suffice it to say that it's not enough to be terribly concerned with when the volumetric comparison is not more than 2:1. By no coincidence, this factor aligns with the rules of UL72, where a listing is limited to 50% of the cubic capacity of the tested model. Seems UL came to the same conclusions after decades of testing. There is also a significant gradient from floor to ceiling in the safe. The "published" sensor location data-point for testing is 7 inches from the ceiling in the center of the safe volume. We equipped all test subjects with several more TCs to learn. I will say that in the BF safe, when the internal temperature at that 7"-center hit 350ºF (126 minutes), the temperatures at mid and low probe locations were over 60º lower. I'll leave it at that. Any more detail will tell too much about some of the interesting things that happen in a safe fire that help us to design a superior product. While an air-tight fire box will probably keep documents safe when placed inside of a firesafe, it's not the intended application for that box either. So, it's not completely obvious how that inner box will react. It was designed to be exposed to fire, not steam. There may be adverse reactions we don't understand. My gut says it's okay as long as there is a positive locking seal mechanism. But, if the door/lid of that unit is not locked in place with a pressure-latching system, I would be concerned with the steam penetration. No matter how you protect the contents from heat, you should always take extra precautions to protect from moisture. Zip lock bags, Tupperware containers, document lamination, sealed canisters... do something extra with precious items that are vulnerable to moisture damage. Don't rely on desiccants, they can get saturated and actually cause more troubles than they solve. |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 9/3/2016 4:32:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Dear TSG,
Thank you sir! I well understand the need to benefit from hard won research findings. You have given me what I need. I will stop obsessing over the relative protection offered by the BF6636 v. BF6030 and will go with the largest of the two that I can fit in my space. I understand too that putting the FireKing SureSeal in the bottom of a BF series safe is flying into the unknown. My large handful of documents belong in a real safe deposit box in a real bank vault--but that is not an option now. If I had another $4K to throw at the problem I would buy a small UL rated 3-hour data safe to key the documents safe and dry--but that it not an option now either. My gut told me that the SS104 would do better on the floor of a BF6636 than on the floor of an engulfed master closet. Your gut led you in the same direction and your gut has way more experience than mine in these matters. I understand that there is no way to know for sure how it would perform without doing the experiment. I also like your multiple levels of protection idea--Ziplock inside Tupperware, inside an SS104. Maybe AmSec could pursue this as a business opportunity. FireKing charges $400 for their MediaVault 1000 with a UL 1-hour Class 125 rating (http://amzn.to/2bRB2Pl). And neither of these FireKing products is going to fit easily into a BF 6636--I will have to request a customized interior from AmSec. If you could engineer Class 125 inserts for your BF line, I think that you could charge a premium for them. And we would get a solution at far less than what I would have to spend for a data rated second safe. Thank you so much for your advice and insight! Nanjing-Too |
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Posted: 9/3/2016 11:38:46 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nanjing-Too:
Dear TSG, I am trying to solve a problem similar to “kesersoze”. I have some precious papers that I would like to keep safe (and preferably dry.) I am losing my safe deposit box at the end of September. I have had no luck finding a replacement. I was told by one bank chain that they are “getting out of the safe deposit box business.” I have a daughter born in China and I was storing her adoption papers in that safe deposit box. So suddenly my leisurely search for a fireproof gun safe has acquired a new sense of urgency. All of these adopted Chinese girls are, by definition, “abandoned.” My daughter was found in a cardboard box outside the gates of a middle school in Guangdong province in Southern China. The only origin story that she will ever know is in that stack of papers. You are much better off safeguarding your documents at home with the extra precautions you are taking. A very good friend had his safe deposit box broken into, along with many other victims, and his adopted daughter's irreplaceable documents from China were destroyed or lost during the commission of the burglary. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/nyregion/queens-bank-heist-leaves-dozens-of-deposit-boxes-on-roof.html?_r=0 |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 9/9/2016 11:49:10 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMPEBRFAN:
You are much better off safeguarding your documents at home with the extra precautions you are taking. A very good friend had his safe deposit box broken into, along with many other victims, and his adopted daughter's irreplaceable documents from China were destroyed or lost during the commission of the burglary. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/nyregion/queens-bank-heist-leaves-dozens-of-deposit-boxes-on-roof.html?_r=0 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMPEBRFAN:
Originally Posted By Nanjing-Too:
Dear TSG, I am trying to solve a problem similar to “kesersoze”. I have some precious papers that I would like to keep safe (and preferably dry.) I am losing my safe deposit box at the end of September. I have had no luck finding a replacement. I was told by one bank chain that they are “getting out of the safe deposit box business.” I have a daughter born in China and I was storing her adoption papers in that safe deposit box. So suddenly my leisurely search for a fireproof gun safe has acquired a new sense of urgency. All of these adopted Chinese girls are, by definition, “abandoned.” My daughter was found in a cardboard box outside the gates of a middle school in Guangdong province in Southern China. The only origin story that she will ever know is in that stack of papers. You are much better off safeguarding your documents at home with the extra precautions you are taking. A very good friend had his safe deposit box broken into, along with many other victims, and his adopted daughter's irreplaceable documents from China were destroyed or lost during the commission of the burglary. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/nyregion/queens-bank-heist-leaves-dozens-of-deposit-boxes-on-roof.html?_r=0 That is a scary tale ! I see bank branches come and go these day and I have wondered about how secure their vaults are. Fancy looking vault door--but how secure are the walls, roof, etc? I guess that the answer in the above story was "not very"
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Posted: 9/9/2016 12:09:20 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nanjing-Too:
That is a scary tale ! I see bank branches come and go these day and I have wondered about how secure their vaults are. Fancy looking vault door--but how secure are the walls, roof, etc? I guess that the answer in the above story was "not very"
Safes and Vaults are delay devices, nothing more. Given enough time and the right tools, any container can be compromised. Your problem is to decide on how much delay you want or need. There are tools out there that can open any safe in minutes. In the hands of a moderately skilled thief, a TRTL30x6 is an under 5-minute opening. |
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Posted: 9/10/2016 4:30:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: icecold1]
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Safes and Vaults are delay devices, nothing more. Given enough time and the right tools, any container can be compromised. Your problem is to decide on how much delay you want or need. There are tools out there that can open any safe in minutes. In the hands of a moderately skilled thief, a TRTL30x6 is an under 5-minute opening. so a tl 30 safe cannot be opened by ul experts in less than 30 min with every / any tool at their disposal, but a moderately skilled thief can open it in 5 min? are you talking lock manipulation or brute force type entry? 
your making me nervous here pete |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 9/11/2016 4:32:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Plattekill]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nanjing-Too:
That is a scary tale ! I see bank branches come and go these day and I have wondered about how secure their vaults are. Fancy looking vault door--but how secure are the walls, roof, etc? I guess that the answer in the above story was "not very"
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nanjing-Too:
Originally Posted By CMPEBRFAN:
Originally Posted By Nanjing-Too:
Dear TSG, I am trying to solve a problem similar to “kesersoze”. I have some precious papers that I would like to keep safe (and preferably dry.) I am losing my safe deposit box at the end of September. I have had no luck finding a replacement. I was told by one bank chain that they are “getting out of the safe deposit box business.” I have a daughter born in China and I was storing her adoption papers in that safe deposit box. So suddenly my leisurely search for a fireproof gun safe has acquired a new sense of urgency. All of these adopted Chinese girls are, by definition, “abandoned.” My daughter was found in a cardboard box outside the gates of a middle school in Guangdong province in Southern China. The only origin story that she will ever know is in that stack of papers. You are much better off safeguarding your documents at home with the extra precautions you are taking. A very good friend had his safe deposit box broken into, along with many other victims, and his adopted daughter's irreplaceable documents from China were destroyed or lost during the commission of the burglary. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/nyregion/queens-bank-heist-leaves-dozens-of-deposit-boxes-on-roof.html?_r=0 That is a scary tale ! I see bank branches come and go these day and I have wondered about how secure their vaults are. Fancy looking vault door--but how secure are the walls, roof, etc? I guess that the answer in the above story was "not very"
TSG, my local bank branch has a huge massive stainless steel door on the safe... And no bolt work that I can see. Not even on the frame. Are we being conned? The employees tell me they lock it up every night. |
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