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USA
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Posted: 2/26/2016 10:34:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dkushner]
[#1]
(1 of 2 due to 2000 character limit)
TSG, Wow, I've spent the past few weeks reading all 82 pages of this thread. Really, really good stuff. Thank you very much for taking your time to share so much useful information. I'm in the market for a relatively small security container and I have narrowed my needs down to the following criteria: 1. Weight is critical. I don't want my housing decisions to be based on moving an elephant of a safe. I'm guessing that 450 lbs is the upper limit for what me and a few buddies could install in my simple one story house. Less is more to me in this area, and the safe will be be bolted to the floor...gun safes are out and I would be happy with a relatively small safe and I'm really intrigued by the sub 300 lb models. 2. I really like TL rated safes, but my weight criteria makes this impossible since the lightest AMSEC safe is over 700 lbs....therefore I'm stuck with RSC. I want the most secure (primary), most fire resistant (secondary), safe that I can get with a RSC UL listing. 3. Security is very important to my peace of mind, but I live in a safe urban area about one mile from the police department. I have a centrally monitored fire and burglary system. I need the best security that I can get in the most light weight safe that I can get. 4. Fire protection is very important to me. I feel comfortable with a 1 or 2 hour UL fire rating from a reputable company. 5. I prefer that my safe is made and tested in the USA. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/26/2016 10:35:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dkushner]
[#2]
(2 of 2 due to 2000 character limit)
Based on these criteria, and your education in this thread, I've narrowed my choices to AMSEC's BF and CSC lines of safes. Here are some questions that I have and I would sincerely appreciate your comments: - The fire rating on the CSC 1413 is better than the fire rating on the BF1512, but only the BF is UL rated. How would you compare the fire resistance of these two units based on your knowledge of thermodynamics? - How would you compare the security of the BF vs the CSC? Which do you think would take longer to compromise for the average crook? - What can you tell me about the group II dial combination lock that comes standard on the BF1512? Brand? Model? How many numbers are required (3 or 4 I'd guess)? Can I reset the combination on this lock or does this require a locksmith? - How about the default mechanical lock on the CSC 1413? How does it compare the the equivalent lock on the BF1512? - Do you think that a group I dial combination lock is a worthwhile upgrade on the BF series? - Is an upgraded liner available for the BF1512? Would an upgraded liner be a worthwhile upgrade from a burglary standpoint on this type of construction? - I see that the CSC safes have a glass relocker, and the BF safes have a 'group II lock with spring-loaded aux relock device'. What are the pros and cons of each type of relocker? - Is there any new technology in the pipeline related to the BF or CSC that I should be looking out for since I'm not in a hurry? Thank you again, and best regards, D |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2016 1:30:00 AM EDT
[#3]
Is the duo lock available on the RF703620X6?
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Posted: 3/9/2016 4:39:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMad316:
Is the duo lock available on the RF703620X6? No, sorry. The Duo Lock does not bear the listing marks to qualify for a UL rated TL Burglary safe. This has been an open issue for over a year, and they have not announced they have upgraded the lock to be Group 2M or Group 1 mechanical compliant. The lock bears an adequate E-Lock rating, but in the case of a dual-listing product, it must bear the listing mark for both mechanical and electronic ratings. The lesser of the two ratings determine the qualification. In the case of the Duo, even though the label does not indicate a mechanical listing, the manufacturer says it is Group 2, which does not qualify for this safe. Sorry to say the LaGard alternative has the same issue. |
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Posted: 3/9/2016 5:00:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
TSG, Wow, I've spent the past few weeks reading all 82 pages of this thread. Really, really good stuff. Thank you very much for taking your time to share so much useful information. I'm in the market for a relatively small security container and I have narrowed my needs down to the following criteria: 1. Weight is critical. I don't want my housing decisions to be based on moving an elephant of a safe. I'm guessing that 450 lbs is the upper limit for what me and a few buddies could install in my simple one story house. Less is more to me in this area, and the safe will be be bolted to the floor...gun safes are out and I would be happy with a relatively small safe and I'm really intrigued by the sub 300 lb models. 2. I really like TL rated safes, but my weight criteria makes this impossible since the lightest AMSEC safe is over 700 lbs....therefore I'm stuck with RSC. I want the most secure (primary), most fire resistant (secondary), safe that I can get with a RSC UL listing. 3. Security is very important to my peace of mind, but I live in a safe urban area about one mile from the police department. I have a centrally monitored fire and burglary system. I need the best security that I can get in the most light weight safe that I can get. 4. Fire protection is very important to me. I feel comfortable with a 1 or 2 hour UL fire rating from a reputable company. 5. I prefer that my safe is made and tested in the USA. Based on these criteria, and your education in this thread, I've narrowed my choices to AMSEC's BF and CSC lines of safes. Here are some questions that I have and I would sincerely appreciate your comments: - The fire rating on the CSC 1413 is better than the fire rating on the BF1512, but only the BF is UL rated. How would you compare the fire resistance of these two units based on your knowledge of thermodynamics? - How would you compare the security of the BF vs the CSC? Which do you think would take longer to compromise for the average crook? - What can you tell me about the group II dial combination lock that comes standard on the BF1512? Brand? Model? How many numbers are required (3 or 4 I'd guess)? Can I reset the combination on this lock or does this require a locksmith? - How about the default mechanical lock on the CSC 1413? How does it compare the the equivalent lock on the BF1512? - Do you think that a group I dial combination lock is a worthwhile upgrade on the BF series? - Is an upgraded liner available for the BF1512? Would an upgraded liner be a worthwhile upgrade from a burglary standpoint on this type of construction? - I see that the CSC safes have a glass relocker, and the BF safes have a 'group II lock with spring-loaded aux relock device'. What are the pros and cons of each type of relocker? - Is there any new technology in the pipeline related to the BF or CSC that I should be looking out for since I'm not in a hurry? Thank you again, and best regards, D Sorry for the delay in response. Been traveling a lot. Your desire to have a UL RSC is going to disqualify the CSC. So is the Made in the USA issue. The CSC was made domestically for the first couple years, but it was moved offshore due to the high relative price and resulting low volume in sales. When the safe went offshore, the fill went from high-strength concrete fill to a fire rated fill to make it lighter. The offshore version is not as badass as the domestic version. Although the construction is worthy of and RSC rating, and it would pass the test, it was never listed. The lock on all of our RSC rated safes is the Big Red, formerly known as the Lock1One. It has proven to be a highly reliable lock, basically a Chinese alternative to the original S&G 6730 lock with all brass internal parts. We have been using this lock for around 6 years now, and it has demonstrated extremely good performance and reliability. A Group 1 lock is overkill on any residential safe. The odds of a genuine lock manipulation expert burglarizing your safe is off-the-charts. It never happens in the real world. The BF Security Safe Line does not offer an upgraded liner as a standard product, but you can ask your dealer for a quote. It's not that much trouble, but we don't offer it as a standard product. There are always new products in the pipeline, but I can't discuss those here. Sorry, until the products are launched and the patents are in place, we keep these things under wraps. You may want to look at the CE2518. That's a TL-15, with an ID of 25 H x 18 W x 16 D. It provides a 2-hour 1800ºF fire rating and a much higher burglary rating at just over 1000lbs. You would be surprised to find that a 1000 lb safe can be moved without too much effort with a furniture dolly and 2 strong guys... Hope that helps... |
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Posted: 3/9/2016 7:25:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Hi TSG, I hope your recent travels have been interesting.
I ran across this safe the other day and found it rather odd, The WORLDWIDE UL-TRTL-15×6 I know AMSEC has built some safes for Worldwide based upon previous threads, I have never seen, or even heard of a safe with this rating, seems like an odd duck. Tool, torch, and explosives for 15 minutes on six sides, certainly a strong box but all the ones I have seen in the past were 30 minute (or even 60 if I recall). May be built to a budget price while retaining high security?? Best guess on who is building this safe. Any comments on the odd rating, I understand the rating, just seems odd. The safe in question |
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Posted: 3/9/2016 8:01:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
Any comments on the odd rating, I understand the rating, just seems odd. [/span] The safe in question I'm fairly sure that is a private labeled line made by Surimax out of Quito, Ecuador. I have visited their factory. Although their website does not show the TRTL-15x6 rated model line, they do have that UL listing. |
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Posted: 3/9/2016 8:15:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
[span style='font-weight: bold;'] I'm fairly sure that is a private labeled line made by Surimax out of Quito, Ecuador. I have visited their factory. Although their website does not show the TRTL-15x6 rated model line, they do have that UL listing.[/span] Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Any comments on the odd rating, I understand the rating, just seems odd. [/span] The safe in question [span style='font-weight: bold;'] I'm fairly sure that is a private labeled line made by Surimax out of Quito, Ecuador. I have visited their factory. Although their website does not show the TRTL-15x6 rated model line, they do have that UL listing.[/span] I knew you would know or at least have a highly educated guess, thanks! |
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USA
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Posted: 3/10/2016 11:45:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dkushner]
[#9]
TSG,
Thank you very much for your reply. I've learned more about safes from you than anyone/anywhere else on the Internet, very much appreciated. I'm glad that you explained that Amsec uses a Chinese lock on your RSC rated safes as I would have ben very disappointed to find this out post purchase. I really, really don't want a Chinese lock on my beautiful new Amsec safe. Is it possible to order the S&G 6730 from the factory? I'd be concerned about having a dealer change out the lock from an Amsec warranty perspective, so I'd really like it to come from the factory. Would you personally choose the S&G over the Chinese lock for your personal use? Do you happen to know where the S&G 6730 is made? When it comes to the current, import version, of the CSC how would you compare say the CSC1413 to the BF1512 as far as pry attacks are concerned in a residential situation? Do you think that the 1/2" door plate on the BF offers a significant security upgrade over the CSC? How do the sides, back, and liner compare between the models? If I was to order an upgraded liner in the BF1512 how do you think it would then compare to the stock CSC1413 from a typical residential burglary attack? Do you have a recommendation for the gauge I should be requesting for an upgraded 1512 liner? Thank you! D |
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Posted: 3/10/2016 4:25:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
Is it possible to order the S&G 6730 from the factory? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
Is it possible to order the S&G 6730 from the factory? You can order your safe with practically any lock made. We stock a wide array of locks. Would you personally choose the S&G over the Chinese lock for your personal use? If I were buying a safe with a mechanical lock, I would not hesitate to leave the Big Red lock on the safe. I have acquired many safes for friends and family, and I have never hesitated to leave the stock lock on the safe when they opted for a mechanical lock. The service stats on the Big Red are every bit as good as any of the domestic name-brand locks. Do you happen to know where the S&G 6730 is made? The 6730 is made in Nicholasville, KY. However, some models are made in part or whole offshore. We no longer stock the 6730, but instead we offer the 6630, which is the same lock with enhancements to qualify it as a Group 2M lock for TL safes. If you want an S&G upgrade, ask for the 6630 to avoid delays. When it comes to the current, import version, of the CSC how would you compare say the CSC1413 to the BF1512 as far as pry attacks are concerned in a residential situation? The safe construction is very different, but the pry resistance is probably very similar on the two different designs. |
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Posted: 3/10/2016 4:25:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Do you think that the 1/2" door plate on the BF offers a significant security upgrade over the CSC? The 1/2" door definitely adds to the strength and integrity in the overall construction. Prying a safe open is much easier when a door will bend or twist, so a thick steel door helps a lot to prevent pry attacks. The CSC is a filled shell-pan design with 2.5mm outer and inner plates of steel. It is very rigid because of the 2 inch thick filled box cross section, so not much flex there. How do the sides, back, and liner compare between the models? The BF safe is a little heavier construction, with 11 gauge (0.120") thick inner and outer shells. The CSC is a little lighter, using 2.5mm (0.098") steel inner and outer plates. The CSC is a little thicker overall in the body (2-7/8" vs 2-5/8" walls). If I was to order an upgraded liner in the BF1512 how do you think it would then compare to the stock CSC1413 from a typical residential burglary attack? Well, more steel is always better. Assuming you ordered a 4-gauge liner in the BF, it would have an inner steel shell almost 3 times thicker than the CSC wall. But, with power saws and abrasive implements, it would not make much difference in reality. It's all about the tools applied, as you know. Do you have a recommendation for the gauge I should be requesting for an upgraded 1512 liner? I would suggest a 4-gauge (0.224") liner would be a nice improvement... |
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Posted: 3/14/2016 4:45:34 PM EDT
[#12]
TSG,
If I bought a fire safe and lived in the south with high humidity, would I have the same fire protection as if I lived in the high desert with a very low humidity? Thanks! |
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Posted: 3/14/2016 4:49:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By disorientedpilot:
TSG, If I bought a fire safe and lived in the south with high humidity, would I have the same fire protection as if I lived in the high desert with a very low humidity? Thanks! Although I have not tested with those conditions in mind, I'm fairly confident the ambient humidity would not make a measurable difference in the fire protection performance. Most of the steam comes from the calcination of the insulation, and not from free water held. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2016 8:23:05 AM EDT
[#14]
TSG,
I have been suffering paralysis from analysis for some time now regarding purchasing a safe - thanks to repeated reading of all 80+ pages of this thread I finally pulled the trigger yesterday. Ordered up an Amvault CFX703620 with gun safe interior. Went with sandstone and black chrome hardware. My local dealer was great to work with and answered every question I had. Now I just have sit patiently and wait the 6-10 weeks until delivery. Not going to be easy. Thank you again for your time and openness in answering all the questions posed on this thread. Although you never acted like a salesperson your honest answers helped me to make a much more educated decision based on my needs. |
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Posted: 3/15/2016 11:16:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Manduck:
TSG, I have been suffering paralysis from analysis for some time now regarding purchasing a safe - thanks to repeated reading of all 80+ pages of this thread I finally pulled the trigger yesterday. Ordered up an Amvault CFX703620 with gun safe interior. Went with sandstone and black chrome hardware. My local dealer was great to work with and answered every question I had. Now I just have sit patiently and wait the 6-10 weeks until delivery. Not going to be easy. Thank you again for your time and openness in answering all the questions posed on this thread. Although you never acted like a salesperson your honest answers helped me to make a much more educated decision based on my needs. Good job, you bought serious security, and ARF is fortunate to have TSG on board to answer questions. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2016 8:28:14 PM EDT
[#16]
Mr. Safe Guy, would you be so kind as to tell me what size and thread pitch is the bolt that secures the safe handle shaft to the bell crank that retracts the bolts? I have made several trips to the hardware store to get some nuts to fit this bolt, and after buying a sack full of different sixes, none of which fit, I suspect it may be metric or some strange size. I understand if you don't want to answer the question without knowing what I am doing, but I hate to post that in a public forum. If you send me a private massage I will tell you exactly what I am up to. Thanks, Jim
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Posted: 3/15/2016 10:52:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jim357:
Mr. Safe Guy, would you be so kind as to tell me what size and thread pitch is the bolt that secures the safe handle shaft to the bell crank that retracts the bolts? I have made several trips to the hardware store to get some nuts to fit this bolt, and after buying a sack full of different sixes, none of which fit, I suspect it may be metric or some strange size. I understand if you don't want to answer the question without knowing what I am doing, but I hate to post that in a public forum. If you send me a private massage I will tell you exactly what I am up to. Thanks, Jim It has always been a 3/8-16 Standard Course Thread. It's most likely you have already tried that, because it's the obvious solution. If that size does not fit, I would be stoopified too.... |
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USA
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Posted: 3/16/2016 9:44:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dkushner]
[#18]
Hey TSG
Do you have any idea why the Amsec gun safe warranties appear to be so much more comprehensive than the standard Amsec safe warranty (BF 1512 vs BF Gun Safe)? I'm really impressed with your gun safe warranty, not so much with the 'standard' UL listed firesafe warranty that appears to come with the BF 1512 style. Please tell me that I'm just misreading the warranty docs and all of your safes have a no cost break-in, no cost attempted break in...Please tell me that all of your safes have a warranty equivalent to the gun safe lifetime warranty. Regards D |
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Posted: 3/16/2016 10:59:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
Hey TSG Do you have any idea why the Amsec gun safe warranties appear to be so much more comprehensive than the standard Amsec safe warranty (BF 1512 vs BF Gun Safe)? I'm really impressed with your gun safe warranty, not so much with the 'standard' UL listed firesafe warranty that appears to come with the BF 1512 style. Please tell me that I'm just misreading the warranty docs and all of your safes have a no cost break-in, no cost attempted break in...Please tell me that all of your safes have a warranty equivalent to the gun safe lifetime warranty. Regards D Truth is the truth... the Gunsafe marketplace has gone wildly overboard with warranty promises. It's been a two decade game of leap-frog to the point where everyone has given away the entire farm. Hence, our Gunsafe line offers a much better policy than our other product families. How many other product classes do you know of that offer a lifetime warranty? ... not many. You're lucky to get 90 days on some products. The same thing has happened in auto industry... the competition has moved auto makers from 3 year to 5 year and even up to 10 year warranties. It's competitive pressure. That's why everyone looks to cut costs by going to Canada, Mexico and Asia to make cars. This is a market issue, where the Gunsafe market has driven much more comprehensive coverage than any residential, commercial or institutional security market. In those other markets, there are no lifetime warranties of any kind, and there never has been. The best warranties in those markets don't exceed 3-year parts and labor, generally negotiated only for high volume chain accounts and major distributors. None of those markets enjoy any free replacement programs for fire or burglary damages. Please understand our situation. We sell safes into every market segment. We are not like the "Gunsafe Only" competitors that do only gunsafes. We also make tens-of-thousands of safes every year for those other markets, where the accepted standard is a 1-year parts and labor warranty. These lifetime warranties cost money, and lots of it. This drives margins down substantially., so we simply can't remain competitive in those other key markets with an inflated warranty policy. This is not about how bad our regular warranty is, it's about how incredible and extreme the gunsafe warranties really have become. We only do that to remain a player in the gunsafe market, and only for products sold in that market. In fact, we have been very tempted to abandon the Gunsafe market many times due to already absurd levels of profit margin. That is why you see our products always offer a premium in features and value at a slightly higher price-point, because we can't compete down in the gutter on the low end with all these the guys running small family owned factories making one basic product family all day long. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/17/2016 1:46:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
If I were buying a safe with a mechanical lock, I would not hesitate to leave the Big Red lock on the safe. I have acquired many safes for friends and family, and I have never hesitated to leave the stock lock on the safe when they opted for a mechanical lock. The service stats on the Big Red are every bit as good as any of the domestic name-brand locks. TSG, can you tell me which model of Big Red is installed by default? Model CDL-3M perhaps? Regards D |
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USA
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Posted: 3/17/2016 1:56:25 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
I would suggest a 4-gauge (0.224") liner would be a nice improvement... TSG How much do you estimate a 4-gauge liner would add to the weight of a BF 1512? Do the door bolts lock into the upgraded liner or is the upgraded liner not involved in retaining the bolts? Regards D |
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Posted: 3/17/2016 2:35:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
TSG, can you tell me which model of Big Red is installed by default? Model CDL-3M perhaps? Regards D Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
If I were buying a safe with a mechanical lock, I would not hesitate to leave the Big Red lock on the safe. I have acquired many safes for friends and family, and I have never hesitated to leave the stock lock on the safe when they opted for a mechanical lock. The service stats on the Big Red are every bit as good as any of the domestic name-brand locks. TSG, can you tell me which model of Big Red is installed by default? Model CDL-3M perhaps? Regards D No, we use the CDL-3 Group 2 lock for non TL rated safes, including the RSC listed safes. For TL Rated safes, we currently use the S&G 6630 Group 2M lock |
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Posted: 3/17/2016 2:44:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
TSG How much do you estimate a 4-gauge liner would add to the weight of a BF 1512? Do the door bolts lock into the upgraded liner or is the upgraded liner not involved in retaining the bolts? Regards D Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
I would suggest a 4-gauge (0.224") liner would be a nice improvement... TSG How much do you estimate a 4-gauge liner would add to the weight of a BF 1512? Do the door bolts lock into the upgraded liner or is the upgraded liner not involved in retaining the bolts? Regards D This safe is fairly small, so the estimated additional weight is just under 20 lbs. The Liner is behind the reinforced body jambs, and does not engage the bolts. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/17/2016 10:41:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dkushner]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
No, we use the CDL-3 Group 2 lock for non TL rated safes, including the RSC listed safes. For TL Rated safes, we currently use the S&G 6630 Group 2M lock Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By dkushner:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
If I were buying a safe with a mechanical lock, I would not hesitate to leave the Big Red lock on the safe. I have acquired many safes for friends and family, and I have never hesitated to leave the stock lock on the safe when they opted for a mechanical lock. The service stats on the Big Red are every bit as good as any of the domestic name-brand locks. TSG, can you tell me which model of Big Red is installed by default? Model CDL-3M perhaps? Regards D No, we use the CDL-3 Group 2 lock for non TL rated safes, including the RSC listed safes. For TL Rated safes, we currently use the S&G 6630 Group 2M lock TSG Seems like the CDL 3M is a no brainer compared to the CDL 3...especially for only $8 more list. Has Amsec ever considered using this upgraded lock as stock? Does the large plastic piece (DuPont ZYTEL 70G30L?) on the 3M concern you like it concerns me? http://bigredsafelocks.com/assets/Uploads/PRODUCT-PRICE-SHEET-SHORT-VERSION-040112.pdf Am I correct in assuming that this would be a relatively inexpensive upgrade since the difference in list price of the locks is less than $10? Regards D |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 1:14:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bills2961]
[#25]
I just had a NF6036 delivered and I have a question. on the inside edge of the door there is a 3/4 inch strip about 1/8 in thick that goes
all around the door and on the corners it looks like tape holding it together. on the inside the full length of the strip keeps coming loose and before I find some fix I would like to know the best way to take care of this and is it normal? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 10:38:38 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bills2961:
I just had a NF6036 delivered and I have a question. on the inside edge of the door there is a 3/4 inch strip about 1/8 in thick that goes all around the door and on the corners it looks like tape holding it together. on the inside the full length of the strip keeps coming loose and before I find some fix I would like to know the best way to take care of this and is it normal? Send me a PM with your vitals and we'll get that taken care of. The intumescent seal strip should not come loose. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 10:31:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Looking to purchase this week and looked at the website...
In your BF series gun safes, what is the difference between say the BF7240 and the BF7240HD models? The specs all look the same sans the weight and the descriptions don't really give any info to the differences. Also, looking to the BF7250(HD,) the door plate is reduced from 1/2" to 3/8". What is the deal there? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 10:46:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bubbahana:
Looking to purchase this week and looked at the website... In your BF series gun safes, what is the difference between say the BF7240 and the BF7240HD models? The specs all look the same sans the weight and the descriptions don't really give any info to the differences. Also, looking to the BF7250(HD,) the door plate is reduced from 1/2" to 3/8". What is the deal there? The HD version has a 4-gauge liner, rather than 16 gauge. The door is 3/8" thick on the big safe due to stability concerns. That big heavy door can tip the safe over. We are considering making it so you can order the HD version with the 1/2" door. Will advise. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 11:21:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
We are considering making it so you can order the HD version with the 1/2" door. Will advise. How much will this add to the weight of the already 2204lb. BF7250HD? How long till a decision? (getting ready to pull the trigger, but would like the 1/2" door) |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2016 1:01:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Does AMSEC offer the 6441IU2U Redundant Mechanical by request? Or do you only offer the Lock Duo?
Do you have pictures and ratings of either? On the duo it looks like the digital is type 1, while the dial isn't rated. I researching to buy BF series right now. |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 5:18:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yeehaa:
How much will this add to the weight of the already 2204lb. BF7250HD? How long till a decision? (getting ready to pull the trigger, but would like the 1/2" door) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Yeehaa:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
We are considering making it so you can order the HD version with the 1/2" door. Will advise. How much will this add to the weight of the already 2204lb. BF7250HD? How long till a decision? (getting ready to pull the trigger, but would like the 1/2" door) I don't have good news. I spoke with our team about the 1/2" door option on the BF7250. Unfortunately, the body was designed with the appropriate inset for the thinner 3/8" door. If we mount a 1/2" door in that frame, the door will not be inset as it should, and the hinges will not fit properly. We could make a custom safe with the 1/2" door, but it would require a complete set of custom door frame components, and the one-off nature of a safe like that would be extremely expensive. Existing fixtures don't fit and other issues would require a lot of black-smithing that would likely drive the price up considerably. You can ask your dealer for a quote to get definitive price, but don't be surprised if the number ends up over $1000 more after dealer markups. You might as well buy an RF and get a much better safe... |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 5:27:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SouthpawAR:
Does AMSEC offer the 6441IU2U Redundant Mechanical by request? Or do you only offer the Lock Duo? Do you have pictures and ratings of either? On the duo it looks like the digital is type 1, while the dial isn't rated. I researching to buy BF series right now. We do carry the 6441 Lock... however, the LaGard redundant lock solution requires a second spindle hole for the digital lock input pad. On gunsafes, the secondary spindle hole is not available, and adding that hole would void the RSC listing. The NL Locks Duo is the same lock, but there is an oval escutcheon panel (plastic face panel) that allows the cable from the E-Lock input pad to be routed under the dial and down the primary lock spindle hole. You can see that option below: 
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LA, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2016 7:47:59 PM EDT
[#33]
The DUO is hideous lol, no offense BTW.
How does Fort knox get away with using a pretty redundant lock? Also can a BF be made 2" wider than standard? And does it skyrocket in price if customization is offered? I have another thread complaining that I move too much to commit to a safe. I want awesome, I'm willing to pay for something awesome, but I move too much to make it happen. While I don't have to have one upstairs right now I fear the day will soon come where it's my only spot available and my awesome safe would be useless. Do you have any suggestions? I'm eyeing the BF6032 and the Fort Knox executive. I want something bigger and stronger but I've been warned to keep it under 1,000 lbs. The BF 6636 would be great, but at 1320 lbs it may not work out later on. I like the concrete concept in the BF series. My local dealer had a crosshatch and it's very dense compared to drywall. My fingernail could not scratch it. I suppose the concrete won't hold up under an attack but it seems like an asset compared to drywall. |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 8:02:59 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
I don't have good news. I spoke with our team about the 1/2" door option on the BF7250. Unfortunately, the body was designed with the appropriate inset for the thinner 3/8" door. If we mount a 1/2" door in that frame, the door will not be inset as it should, and the hinges will not fit properly. We could make a custom safe with the 1/2" door, but it would require a complete set of custom door frame components, and the one-off nature of a safe like that would be extremely expensive. Existing fixtures don't fit and other issues would require a lot of black-smithing that would likely drive the price up considerably. You can ask your dealer for a quote to get definitive price, but don't be surprised if the number ends up over $1000 more after dealer markups. You might as well buy an RF and get a much better safe... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By Yeehaa:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
We are considering making it so you can order the HD version with the 1/2" door. Will advise. How much will this add to the weight of the already 2204lb. BF7250HD? How long till a decision? (getting ready to pull the trigger, but would like the 1/2" door) I don't have good news. I spoke with our team about the 1/2" door option on the BF7250. Unfortunately, the body was designed with the appropriate inset for the thinner 3/8" door. If we mount a 1/2" door in that frame, the door will not be inset as it should, and the hinges will not fit properly. We could make a custom safe with the 1/2" door, but it would require a complete set of custom door frame components, and the one-off nature of a safe like that would be extremely expensive. Existing fixtures don't fit and other issues would require a lot of black-smithing that would likely drive the price up considerably. You can ask your dealer for a quote to get definitive price, but don't be surprised if the number ends up over $1000 more after dealer markups. You might as well buy an RF and get a much better safe... Thanks!! |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 7:47:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Just so you guys don't think I'm just here for Safes... here is a shot of my most recent gun build. It's a 308 build with a PSA PA-10 Upper/Lower, KAK 18" Barrel & KAK BCG, along with all the other dressings. Hopefully I'll get it out to the range in a few days...
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Posted: 3/31/2016 7:57:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Just so you guys don't think I'm just here for Safes... here is a shot of my most recent gun build. It's a 308 build with a PSA PA-10 Upper/Lower, KAK 18" Barrel & KAK BCG, along with all the other dressings. Hopefully I'll get it out to the range in a few days... http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/PA-10_zpszpmvbpez.jpg Very nice 
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Posted: 3/31/2016 8:07:50 PM EDT
[#37]
How about a lock question.
If you have a Sargent & Greenleaf 6630 Group 2M Mechanical Safe Lock, would the next step up be the Sargent & Greenleaf 2937 Group 1 Mechanical Safe Lock. I am basing that on this link, http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/MN-mechCombo.php Are you really gaining that much extra security? I know some of this is sensitive to discuss so any comments you can make while retaining industry integrity would be great. And what is meant by; "and stainless steel bolt strong enough to resist 600lbs of force", what kind of physical attack are they protecting against? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 10:27:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
How about a lock question. If you have a Sargent & Greenleaf 6630 Group 2M Mechanical Safe Lock, would the next step up be the Sargent & Greenleaf 2937 Group 1 Mechanical Safe Lock. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
How about a lock question. If you have a Sargent & Greenleaf 6630 Group 2M Mechanical Safe Lock, would the next step up be the Sargent & Greenleaf 2937 Group 1 Mechanical Safe Lock. That would be correct... Are you really gaining that much extra security? I know some of this is sensitive to discuss so any comments you can make while retaining industry integrity would be great. Not really. The Group 2M manipulation standard is already beyond the reach of the best lock manipulation artists. Group 1 is arguably the same level as manipulation goes. And what is meant by; "and stainless steel bolt strong enough to resist 600lbs of force", what kind of physical attack are they protecting against? The locking bolt is SS material, and is more than double the shear strength than the brass bolts found in the lower lock families. One of the issues is side attack. With TL-15 and TL-30, that is not allowed. In the X6 listings, they can side-punch boltwork. When UL goes at a side attack, they are deadly and powerful. They can shear the brass bolt off in certain boltwork designs. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 11:01:37 AM EDT
[#39]
Fascinating stuff, thank you for sharing your expertise
So a Group 2M lock coupled with a FAS key would be a serious obstacle to say the least. Besides key retaining non-key retaining and length of the key is there any big security differences in the FAS locks. Model 6804/6805/6824/6825 Model 6860/6870/6880/6890 |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 3:38:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
Fascinating stuff, thank you for sharing your expertise
So a Group 2M lock coupled with a FAS key would be a serious obstacle to say the least. Besides key retaining non-key retaining and length of the key is there any big security differences in the FAS locks. Model 6804/6805/6824/6825 Model 6860/6870/6880/6890 The 680x-682x locks only have one lever set moving in one direction. The 6860/70/80/90 have dual opposing levers moving in opposing directions. In English, that means it's way harder to pick. It's the equivalent to a pin-tumbler key lock with pins on both sides of the key with different cuts. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 4:06:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The 680x-682x locks only have one lever set moving in one direction. The 6860/70/80/90 have dual opposing levers moving in opposing directions. In English, that means it's way harder to pick. It's the equivalent to a pin-tumbler key lock with pins on both sides of the key with different cuts. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Fascinating stuff, thank you for sharing your expertise
So a Group 2M lock coupled with a FAS key would be a serious obstacle to say the least. Besides key retaining non-key retaining and length of the key is there any big security differences in the FAS locks. Model 6804/6805/6824/6825 Model 6860/6870/6880/6890 The 680x-682x locks only have one lever set moving in one direction. The 6860/70/80/90 have dual opposing levers moving in opposing directions. In English, that means it's way harder to pick. It's the equivalent to a pin-tumbler key lock with pins on both sides of the key with different cuts. Thank you again. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 4/2/2016 8:57:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
Thank you again. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Fascinating stuff, thank you for sharing your expertise
So a Group 2M lock coupled with a FAS key would be a serious obstacle to say the least. Besides key retaining non-key retaining and length of the key is there any big security differences in the FAS locks. Model 6804/6805/6824/6825 Model 6860/6870/6880/6890 The 680x-682x locks only have one lever set moving in one direction. The 6860/70/80/90 have dual opposing levers moving in opposing directions. In English, that means it's way harder to pick. It's the equivalent to a pin-tumbler key lock with pins on both sides of the key with different cuts. Thank you again. The FAS is serious business as a secondary lock on a safe. I used to use a 6805 (single bitted non-FAS) for my daylocks because I could leave it unlocked normally since it was non-key retaining. I would only use the key and lock it when I was day locking the safe. I would have used a FAS instead if they had non-key-retaining options but I couldn't get one (I don't think they are made). They are all types of lever locks which are a bear to pick on a good day. Even the 6805 is going to be more pick resistant than almost any pin tumbler lock made IMHO. The main drawback of them is key control. If you want to change out the keys every year as I do, you need to either buy new key bits if you purchased the naked stems, or new keys. They are very expensive. Something like $50-$60 for a new set of 3 bits. Therefore, years ago I switched to a S&G D-Drive for my secondary lock, which is an electronic lock with manual bolt retraction. I am able to leave that unlocked all the time too, and I only lock it when I wish to daylock the safe. It could be my primary lock instead but I have always felt more comfortable with having an S&G 8550 standing guard than an electronic lock, hence why the D-Drive is my secondary lock. Being paranoid, before I day lock it, I always extend the bolts with the door open, lock the d-drive, and make sure I can unlock it before shutting the safe door. I have never been screwed by an electronic lock but it makes me feel better :) |
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USA
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Posted: 4/5/2016 11:21:46 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Sorry for the delay in response. Been traveling a lot. The BF Security Safe Line does not offer an upgraded liner as a standard product, but you can ask your dealer for a quote. It's not that much trouble, but we don't offer it as a standard product. Hope that helps... TSG I asked my dealer about a 4 gauge liner upgrade on the BF1512 and they said that Amsec said that this upgrade was impossible. Is this true, or did my dealer maybe speak to the wrong person at Amsec? Thanks! D |
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Posted: 4/8/2016 1:35:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BGENE]
[#44]
Hi TSG, I spotted this ad in my Internet travels;
http://westslope.craigslist.org/bfs/5480275645.html What am I looking at here, obviously a TL-30 Amsec but this seems to be an odd ball, custom size, seems like a real deal for the size/rating, etc. Maybe something someone custom ordered and had to sell. ETA Could not find this in the Amsec catalog. |
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Posted: 4/8/2016 7:06:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
Hi TSG, I spotted this ad in my Internet travels; http://westslope.craigslist.org/bfs/5480275645.html What am I looking at here, obviously a TL-30 Amsec but this seems to be an odd ball, custom size, seems like a real deal for the size/rating, etc. Maybe something someone custom ordered and had to sell. ETA Could not find this in the Amsec catalog. It's not an AMVault. It's a custom composite based on the AMVault we call an ACF. That was likely ordered for a super market or similar application. I don't recognize the layout, but we do a dozen one-off custom safes every week like that, so it's easy for them to slip by me. |
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Posted: 4/8/2016 7:08:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dkushner:
TSG I asked my dealer about a 4 gauge liner upgrade on the BF1512 and they said that Amsec said that this upgrade was impossible. Is this true, or did my dealer maybe speak to the wrong person at Amsec? Thanks! D Sorry, I don't make those decisions. I merely suggested you ask for a quote and see what happens. If someone shut it down, my bad for getting hopes up. |
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Posted: 4/8/2016 8:12:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
It's not an AMVault. It's a custom composite based on the AMVault we call an ACF. That was likely ordered for a super market or similar application. I don't recognize the layout, but we do a dozen one-off custom safes every week like that, so it's easy for them to slip by me. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Hi TSG, I spotted this ad in my Internet travels; http://westslope.craigslist.org/bfs/5480275645.html What am I looking at here, obviously a TL-30 Amsec but this seems to be an odd ball, custom size, seems like a real deal for the size/rating, etc. Maybe something someone custom ordered and had to sell. ETA Could not find this in the Amsec catalog. It's not an AMVault. It's a custom composite based on the AMVault we call an ACF. That was likely ordered for a super market or similar application. I don't recognize the layout, but we do a dozen one-off custom safes every week like that, so it's easy for them to slip by me. Interesting, thanks for sharing. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2016 9:10:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Ordered a BF6030 with a few options that mandated a special order from my dealer a few weeks ago. And now I wait.
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USA
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Posted: 4/10/2016 6:51:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Sorry, I don't make those decisions. I merely suggested you ask for a quote and see what happens. If someone shut it down, my bad for getting hopes up. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By dkushner:
TSG I asked my dealer about a 4 gauge liner upgrade on the BF1512 and they said that Amsec said that this upgrade was impossible. Is this true, or did my dealer maybe speak to the wrong person at Amsec? Thanks! D Sorry, I don't make those decisions. I merely suggested you ask for a quote and see what happens. If someone shut it down, my bad for getting hopes up. TSG No problem at all, thanks for the reply. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2016 10:14:36 PM EDT
[#50]
So today the Amsec Defense Vault under my bed stopped latching when I close it and slide the bolt back to the left. I can hear the solenoid click when I put in the code but it won't lock.
This is pretty concerning to me as I have a 19 month old running around the house.  . My wife is pretty ticked off.
Is there something I can check on this myself or is this a situation where I call a locksmith? I have no idea what the warranty is on o e of these suckers. I think I have had it 3 years or so. |
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