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Posted: 12/28/2014 2:58:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
All of my literature says Type 1 electronic, Group 1 four wheel mechanical. I'll see if I can get a photo of the UL sticker. That's what I see on the Kaba website literature too. However, for the 6441 to be a Group 1 mechanical lock, it would need to have the Group 1 mechanical lock components that restrict the Lever from dropping into the Gates except at the open position of the Driver Cam. That mechanism prevents you from reading the Contact Points, necessary to hinder mechanical manipulation. I don't recall seeing any of that hardware in the 6441 lock body. If the 6441 does not combine this device with the break-over Lever assembly with the Solenoid, it simply can not be a Group 1 mechanical system. If you can't get a photo, I can check one when I get back in the office after the holiday. The labeling is irrelevant. If the Lever trigger mechanism shown below is not there, the lock could not meet Group 1 requirements. No debate on that matter. We have already seen that this had been overlooked with the LPlocks version of the product. I suspect the 6441 is the same, since it comes from the same designer, and copied under the new branding. 
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USA
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Posted: 12/28/2014 3:12:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: turnip75]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
That's what I see on the Kaba website literature too. However, for the 6441 to be a Group 1 mechanical lock, it would need to have the Group 1 mechanical lock components that restrict the Lever from dropping into the Gates except at the open position of the Driver Cam. That mechanism prevents you from reading the Contact Points, necessary to hinder mechanical manipulation. I don't recall seeing any of that hardware in the 6441 lock body. If the 6441 does not combine this device with the break-over Lever assembly with the Solenoid, it simply can not be a Group 1 mechanical system. If you can't get a photo, I can check one when I get back in the office after the holiday. The labeling is irrelevant. If the Lever trigger mechanism shown below is not there, the lock could not meet Group 1 requirements. No debate on that matter. We have already seen that this had been overlooked with the LPlocks version of the product. I suspect the 6441 is the same, since it comes from the same designer, and copied under the new branding. http://www.time-master.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/imagecache/product_full/LG1985-G.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
All of my literature says Type 1 electronic, Group 1 four wheel mechanical. I'll see if I can get a photo of the UL sticker. That's what I see on the Kaba website literature too. However, for the 6441 to be a Group 1 mechanical lock, it would need to have the Group 1 mechanical lock components that restrict the Lever from dropping into the Gates except at the open position of the Driver Cam. That mechanism prevents you from reading the Contact Points, necessary to hinder mechanical manipulation. I don't recall seeing any of that hardware in the 6441 lock body. If the 6441 does not combine this device with the break-over Lever assembly with the Solenoid, it simply can not be a Group 1 mechanical system. If you can't get a photo, I can check one when I get back in the office after the holiday. The labeling is irrelevant. If the Lever trigger mechanism shown below is not there, the lock could not meet Group 1 requirements. No debate on that matter. We have already seen that this had been overlooked with the LPlocks version of the product. I suspect the 6441 is the same, since it comes from the same designer, and copied under the new branding. http://www.time-master.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/imagecache/product_full/LG1985-G.JPG TSG, this is the exact conversation I had with you a few months ago and you insisted that it was a Group 1 lock and that it maintains that rating regards of the lack of anti-manipulation features. Edit, here it is: Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By turnip75:
Sure, it probably still has a Group 1 rating that it got 20 years ago. But I bet if it were submitted for testing today, it would get a Group 2M rating at best. There is no modern 4-wheel lock with a Group 1 rating that lacks a specific design feature to keep the fence and lever nose away from the gates. I'll look again, but I'm sure that someone was showing me the LaGard 6441 and it had a Group 1 label on the case. We have orders for the NL Duo locks, and we are substituting the LaGard to fill the orders. The safe locks have never been subject to a retest program, so once listed as a Group 1, it's considered grandfathered. One would think that when they changed UL687 to require a 2M or Group 1/1R lock, that they would take a look at the Group 1 locks. They didn't do that as far as I know. I think this is where the confusion came from with NL Locks, they thought they were gonna get the same deal, but as a new listing, it was tested to new standards and only achieved Group 2. There is probably some steamy emails moving around right now. |
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Posted: 12/28/2014 3:59:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By turnip75:
TSG, this is the exact conversation I had with you a few months ago and you insisted that it was a Group 1 lock and that it maintains that rating regards of the lack of anti-manipulation features. Yea, I recall that discussion, but I don't think I ever verified that like I said I would, and there is still doubt in my mind. Until I see a lock with the label, I will continue to be unsure. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/4/2015 5:46:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Hi, I have a few questions.
I have a more secure option for bulk storage, so I'm just looking for something in a master closet to hold a couple guns, along with the wife's jewelry and other things we want to lock up. I'm looking at the BF6030, but have a few questions. 1. If I get the redundant lock (the duo), can I change the mechanical lock to my own combination? (I assume this is yes). 2. How do you rate the upgrade in security by going with the 4 guage interior (HD) upgrade? Is this similar to the non UL Class B rating some safe companies use? 3. How much would the BF6030 weigh with the 4 guage inner lining and the 6 drawer option (this will be mounted on a re-inforced wood sub-floor -- architect new there would be a safe here)? 4. What would you recommend for the best option for a master closet safe that would hold two or three long guns along with jewelery and such (I like the drawer options), with as much security as possible in the $3,000 give or take range (less would be better, a little more I might be able to live with). I think I need to keep it under 2,000 lbs, 1,500 or so would be better, as I have to transite non reinforced floor to reach the section of reinforced flooring. Thanks |
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Posted: 1/4/2015 11:41:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tnedator:
Hi, I have a few questions. I have a more secure option for bulk storage, so I'm just looking for something in a master closet to hold a couple guns, along with the wife's jewelry and other things we want to lock up. I'm looking at the BF6030, but have a few questions. 1. If I get the redundant lock (the duo), can I change the mechanical lock to my own combination? (I assume this is yes). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tnedator:
Hi, I have a few questions. I have a more secure option for bulk storage, so I'm just looking for something in a master closet to hold a couple guns, along with the wife's jewelry and other things we want to lock up. I'm looking at the BF6030, but have a few questions. 1. If I get the redundant lock (the duo), can I change the mechanical lock to my own combination? (I assume this is yes). You can, but it takes a special tool, and some training. It's not something I recommend for the novice, there is a chance you could screw it up. 2. How do you rate the upgrade in security by going with the 4 gauge interior (HD) upgrade? Is this similar to the non UL Class B rating some safe companies use? The 4 gauge upgrade brings the BF Gunsafe to exceed the classical "B" rating. The B-rate classification is an Insurance Standard, not a UL Standard. The UL Listing in this class is the Residential Security Container (RSC), which the BF safe already bears without the 4-gauge liner upgrade. 3. How much would the BF6030 weigh with the 4 gauge inner lining and the 6 drawer option (this will be mounted on a re-inforced wood sub-floor -- architect new there would be a safe here)? let me get back to you on this one. I would be estimating. 4. What would you recommend for the best option for a master closet safe that would hold two or three long guns along with jewelery and such (I like the drawer options), with as much security as possible in the $3,000 give or take range (less would be better, a little more I might be able to live with). I think I need to keep it under 2,000 lbs, 1,500 or so would be better, as I have to transit non reinforced floor to reach the section of reinforced flooring. The need to contain Jewelry implies high value. The "rifle" storage requires a tall safe. So, a good high security Gunsafe is the right choice. There are many choices for smaller high-security storage options, but one large enough to hold long-guns really drives the cost up a lot. You may consider a good BF1716, CE1814, or other higher security small safe on the floor, and then a small low-cost rifle safe next to or on top of the jewelry storage safe. That would probably save you some green, get you better high security storage for small items, and provide more brain damage for the burglar. You could also think about a small safe inside a Gunsafe. Layered security makes a lot of sense when you have mixed storage demands. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/7/2015 10:26:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Looking to get a BF series safe soon. Any new features coming out for 2015, or have to wait until SHOT?
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Posted: 1/8/2015 1:30:18 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eskimojo:
Looking to get a BF series safe soon. Any new features coming out for 2015, or have to wait until SHOT? Nothing new on the BF this year that I know about. I'll check tomorrow. How can you improve on perfection? |
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Posted: 1/8/2015 9:18:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: theblaze]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Nothing new on the BF this year that I know about. I'll check tomorrow. How can you improve on perfection? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By eskimojo:
Looking to get a BF series safe soon. Any new features coming out for 2015, or have to wait until SHOT? Nothing new on the BF this year that I know about. I'll check tomorrow. How can you improve on perfection? Glock continues to do it. 
Sorry, couldn't resist! Edit: Fixed your font. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/12/2015 3:37:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The need to contain Jewelry implies high value. The "rifle" storage requires a tall safe. So, a good high security Gunsafe is the right choice. There are many choices for smaller high-security storage options, but one large enough to hold long-guns really drives the cost up a lot. You may consider a good BF1716, CE1814, or other higher security small safe on the floor, and then a small low-cost rifle safe next to or on top of the jewelry storage safe. That would probably save you some green, get you better high security storage for small items, and provide more brain damage for the burglar. You could also think about a small safe inside a Gunsafe. Layered security makes a lot of sense when you have mixed storage demands. Thanks for the answers and info. Much appreciated. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/12/2015 5:21:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sniper-man]
[#10]
I am very impressed with the fire resistance of the BF line of safes. However, while looking at this picture I noticed that there was something missing. Where did the door go? It appears it was pried off with very little damage done to the body. Is it possible to pry open a BF safe with a 1/2" plate door?
EDIT: Based on this pic, the safe appears to actually be from the FV line. It looks like it has a 3 spoke hub. 
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Posted: 1/12/2015 10:05:00 PM EDT
[#11]
My question on this is where are the hinges??
So this implies to me something else besides prying the door. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2015 12:44:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Hi everyone, registered just because of this great thread and a few outstanding questions I have. I’m new here so looks like I’ll have to break this up in a few chunks, I seriously apologize for that but the rules must be obeyed.
I've been researching gun safes for the past few years and in the interim being nervous with a somewhat spendy AR and optics collection sitting in some pretty flimsy Stack-on steel lockers. BF series has been on my list for a while but at the very top of my budget. I happened to be in a small gun shop today that just changed ownership recently and they were getting rid of the few safes they had on their showroom floor. Lo and behold, BF6030 with metallic brown paint, ES10XL lock, and LED lighting kit for $2300. I could not pass it up and pulled the trigger... I have a high end moving company with lots of experience putting safes in tight spots bringing it to me next week. The safe in question was manufactured in 2013 and is very clearly brand new but I did notice some paint scraping on the inside door jamb from the bolts, I'm guessing at some point since it was put on the floor some numbskull decided to close it with bolts out... or someone had only partially retracted the bolts while they were opening the door. Any potential here for major maintenance that I should check before it gets picked up? The only other things I noticed with it was that the door wasn't perfectly leveled and the little spokes on the 50 caliber wheel don't seem to be on very tight. Hopefully those turn out to be minor issues. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2015 12:46:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Part 2 of 3
So on to a couple of specific questions about bolting this safe down. The basement the safe is going into has a structural floor that is built on top of engineered floor joists that run the length of the basement and are screwed into the basement foundation with steel plate. There are three massive I-Beams running down the length of the basement ceiling that support the first floor and parallel to these are another set of massive I-beams running under the basement floor. These I-Beams have six inch steel columns in caissons that run 30 feet under the house to the bedrock (house is built on crappy soil but engineered for it apparently). Would I be better off bolting down to the floor joists in the basement or attempting to somehow bolt into the I-Beam itself? I have a couple of install location options so either option is possible. Assuming it's recommended to screw into the I-Beam what kind of equipment would I need to make it happen? there's 1" of plywood flooring and another 2" of lumber over the I-Beam proper so I imagine I am going to need some pretty sizable bolts not to mention whatever drill bit I would need to get through the I-Beam. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2015 12:47:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Part 3 of 3 (sorry sorry!)
I have a minor secondary question. About a year ago I purchased an under-the bed Amsec Defense Vault that comes with the ES5 lock. Like a good ninja I put the lock in stealth mode. Several months ago the lock stopped retracting the bolt and I could not get into the safe. I had a bit of a panic about that thinking of what might happen in a defense situation if the same thing happened. I removed the 9V battery and tested it and it tested in the "green" range but slightly low. I put in a new battery and the lock has been working since. Does stealth mode disable the low battery alarm? If this is the case it would seem to be a major oversight in the design. Should I simply replace the ES5 with a different lock? The other somewhat odd issue with the Defense Vault is that I always have to slightly wiggle the door latch to get it to retract after the lock retracts the bolt.... which I find strange. I've been reluctant to contact Amsec about these issues since taking the Safe out to have it serviced would be a real kick in the nuts, but since there is a serious expert in these parts I thought I would ask. Thanks again for such a great and informative thread, I have really learned a ton. |
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Posted: 1/15/2015 1:14:25 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voip-1:
Part 2 of 3 So on to a couple of specific questions about bolting this safe down. The basement the safe is going into has a structural floor that is built on top of engineered floor joists that run the length of the basement and are screwed into the basement foundation with steel plate. There are three massive I-Beams running down the length of the basement ceiling that support the first floor and parallel to these are another set of massive I-beams running under the basement floor. These I-Beams have six inch steel columns in caissons that run 30 feet under the house to the bedrock (house is built on crappy soil but engineered for it apparently). Would I be better off bolting down to the floor joists in the basement or attempting to somehow bolt into the I-Beam itself? I have a couple of install location options so either option is possible. Assuming it's recommended to screw into the I-Beam what kind of equipment would I need to make it happen? there's 1" of plywood flooring and another 2" of lumber over the I-Beam proper so I imagine I am going to need some pretty sizable bolts not to mention whatever drill bit I would need to get through the I-Beam. My opinion... if you can get 1/2" lag bolts into at least 4 inches of wood, you are golden. Anything more, all the better. Bolting into 2" of wood is not enough purchase to keep the bolts from pulling out is someone really wanted to pry it off the floor with a big crowbar. |
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Posted: 1/15/2015 1:57:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voip-1:
Part 3 of 3 (sorry sorry!) I have a minor secondary question. About a year ago I purchased an under-the bed Amsec Defense Vault that comes with the ES5 lock. Like a good ninja I put the lock in stealth mode. Several months ago the lock stopped retracting the bolt and I could not get into the safe. I had a bit of a panic about that thinking of what might happen in a defense situation if the same thing happened. I removed the 9V battery and tested it and it tested in the "green" range but slightly low. I put in a new battery and the lock has been working since. Does stealth mode disable the low battery alarm? If this is the case it would seem to be a major oversight in the design. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voip-1:
Part 3 of 3 (sorry sorry!) I have a minor secondary question. About a year ago I purchased an under-the bed Amsec Defense Vault that comes with the ES5 lock. Like a good ninja I put the lock in stealth mode. Several months ago the lock stopped retracting the bolt and I could not get into the safe. I had a bit of a panic about that thinking of what might happen in a defense situation if the same thing happened. I removed the 9V battery and tested it and it tested in the "green" range but slightly low. I put in a new battery and the lock has been working since. Does stealth mode disable the low battery alarm? If this is the case it would seem to be a major oversight in the design. Let me get back to you on this one. I don't recall if the stealth mode mutes the low battery warning. Being honest.... Frankly, I don't remember testing that mix of conditions, but I would expect that stealth means stealth,, and the low battery warning would violate that premise. I'm the guy that wrote the functional specification and did all the debug on the firmware. Should I simply replace the ES5 with a different lock? The other somewhat odd issue with the Defense Vault is that I always have to slightly wiggle the door latch to get it to retract after the lock retracts the bolt.... which I find strange. I've been reluctant to contact Amsec about these issues since taking the Safe out to have it serviced would be a real kick in the nuts, but since there is a serious expert in these parts I thought I would ask. The problem with the hanging locking bar may be form several possible issues, and it may be the lock, maybe not. This will require a little more than verbal diagnostics. I would remove the lock and see if the mechanism still had the hanging problem. That will send you one way or the other. The wiggle to open is always a red flag for me, and I would call out a tech to check it out. If it's under warranty, it's no skin out of your wallet. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2015 2:53:08 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Part 2 of 3 My opinion... if you can get 1/2" lag bolts into at least 4 inches of wood, you are golden. Anything more, all the better. Bolting into 2" of wood is not enough purchase to keep the bolts from pulling out is someone really wanted to pry it off the floor with a big crowbar.[/span][/span] Awesome, Capt. Amsec replied. I feel like I am officially part of the cool kid crowd.
Okay, thanks for that. It sounds like I might simply be better off getting over the joists and going into them since that is pretty close to 4" if the plywood and other crap count. Any chance you could reply to my post previous to this one if you can give me any advice in that area? Thanks very much I really appreciate your time. |
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Posted: 1/15/2015 3:30:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voip-1: Part 2 of 3 So on to a couple of specific questions about bolting this safe down. The basement the safe is going into has a structural floor that is built on top of engineered floor joists that run the length of the basement and are screwed into the basement foundation with steel plate. There are three massive I-Beams running down the length of the basement ceiling that support the first floor and parallel to these are another set of massive I-beams running under the basement floor. These I-Beams have six inch steel columns in caissons that run 30 feet under the house to the bedrock (house is built on crappy soil but engineered for it apparently). Would I be better off bolting down to the floor joists in the basement or attempting to somehow bolt into the I-Beam itself? I have a couple of install location options so either option is possible. Assuming it's recommended to screw into the I-Beam what kind of equipment would I need to make it happen? there's 1" of plywood flooring and another 2" of lumber over the I-Beam proper so I imagine I am going to need some pretty sizable bolts not to mention whatever drill bit I would need to get through the I-Beam. If the floor joists are between the steel beams so there is plywood-lumber-steel with no air space it is a simple matter of a good 1/2" chuck drill and a long enough bit to drill the holes, Going into steel 1/2" grade 5 or better bolts would be more than sufficient, then bolt to them as long as they are where you want the safe to be. If the floor joist sit on top of the steel beams or the beam isn't exactly where you want the safe, a piece of 2x12 cut to fit between the joists and put flat against the floor with a bolt and a big fender washer would prevent most prying attempts. Point of caution if the safe is directly over a downstairs wall or beam so the wood I-joists are essentially sandwiched between the weight of the safe and a fixed object the I joists should get squash blocks since they don't have a lot of vertical compression strength. It depends on a lot of factors but I would put them in as cheap insurance. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2015 5:51:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jamierah1:
[ If the floor joists are between the steel beams so there is plywood-lumber-steel with no air space it is a simple matter of a good 1/2" chuck drill and a long enough bit to drill the holes, Going into steel 1/2" grade 5 or better bolts would be more than sufficient, then bolt to them as long as they are where you want the safe to be. If the floor joist sit on top of the steel beams or the beam isn't exactly where you want the safe, a piece of 2x12 cut to fit between the joists and put flat against the floor with a bolt and a big fender washer would prevent most prying attempts. Point of caution if the safe is directly over a downstairs wall or beam so the wood I-joists are essentially sandwiched between the weight of the safe and a fixed object the I joists should get squash blocks since they don't have a lot of vertical compression strength. It depends on a lot of factors but I would put them in as cheap insurance. http://www.anthonyforest.com/pdfs/APA/powerjoist/I-Joist-Squash-Blocks.pdf Thanks Jamie for replying. I think a picture is worth 1000 words so here are couple; Here's what it looks like under the basement floor where the safe is going. This is just a photo highlighting one section of the i-beam. There are actually 3 of these i-beams spanning under the basement floor. 
And here's what the basement main level itself (directly above). As you can see at this level the i-beams run the same but floor joists for the above floor (main level) run the opposite direction to the i-beams instead of parallel like they do at the subfloor. 
So would you still recommend going into the i-beam or would the wooden beam suffice? |
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Posted: 1/15/2015 11:03:09 PM EDT
[#20]
If the top picture is the floor the safe is sitting on running 1/2" lag screws at least 2" in to the solid wood joists would hold pretty good and be the simplest provided the holes in the safe floor match up with them which will probably be unlikely. I would just position the safe where I want it and start with a 1/4" bit to drill out pilot holes through the floor, if I hit a joist open it up to 5/16-3/8 and run a 1/2" lag bolt in, if I didn't I would open it up to 1/2" and go with the 2x12 block and a bolt. If I was having my typical day I would somehow hit the steel beam with all four holes and spend another hour cursing my dull drill bit and have to make 14 trips to to the hardware store for the right size bit and longer bolts
 I wouldn't over think it too much put the safe where you want it and deal with whats under it to anchor it down afterwards. From what I see in your pictures you should be able to get a good anchor no matter where the holes land. Side note, I've never seen a wooden basement floor with a crawl space below it before. We have boring dirt here so we just get to pour concrete in the bottom of the hole and call it good.  |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2015 11:57:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: voip1]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jamierah1:
I wouldn't over think it too much put the safe where you want it and deal with whats under it to anchor it down afterwards. From what I see in your pictures you should be able to get a good anchor no matter where the holes land. Side note, I've never seen a wooden basement floor with a crawl space below it before. We have boring dirt here so we just get to pour concrete in the bottom of the hole and call it good.
Ha. Sounds like my typical installs. I put a toilet in last year that took five trips and the toilet was cast wrong, good times! I am clearly overthinking things. Worst case I put a wood block under the subfloor if I am not on the joist directly or use a toggle. I take it that in your opinion this floor should have no trouble supporting 1000+ lbs as long as it is partially over a joist. My last house had a regular slab foundation but this one is quite different. On the plus side if I ever finish the basement it should be easier with a nice level floor already in place. Does anyone have the bolt pattern distances for the BF6030 so I can plan out the install ahead of time and pre drill? |
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Posted: 1/16/2015 11:56:32 PM EDT
[#22]
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:50:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mko1024:
http://www.safeandvaultstore.com/media/wysiwyg/pdf/BF_Gun_Safe_Anchor_Hole_Location.pdf Awesome, thank you! |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/22/2015 11:42:34 PM EDT
[#24]
I got my BF6030 today, what a beast! I am rather amazed that the specialty movers I hired were able to get it in without destroying my house or killing themselves but they did!
So, something weird happened. I must have opened and closed the safe 20 times with no issue when I changed the code. Code change took and I closed the door and re locked the safe or at least I thought I did) - at this point I could not reopen the safe. Each time I keyed in the code I heard a click but could not turn the handle and retract the bolts. About the fifth time it finally worked. I assumed it was a fluke and closed it again. Same thing, bastard did not want to open. At this point I was getting nervous and I changed the code back to the factory default. I then proceeded to open and close the safe 12 times without a single glitch. Ideas? 
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Posted: 1/22/2015 11:47:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Ideas? Get your dealer out there to inspect it, and replace the lock if necessary. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/23/2015 12:40:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
Get your dealer out there to inspect it, and replace the lock if necessary. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
Ideas? Get your dealer out there to inspect it, and replace the lock if necessary. Dealer is exiting the business so I will have to see if another dealer will come out. Not the greatest thing to do with a brand new purchase. 
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WA, USA
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Posted: 1/23/2015 4:29:45 AM EDT
[#27]
so any conclusions yet if the lock duo is group 1 or not?
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Posted: 1/23/2015 9:13:30 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voip1:
I got my BF6030 today, what a beast! I am rather amazed that the specialty movers I hired were able to get it in without destroying my house or killing themselves but they did! So, something weird happened. I must have opened and closed the safe 20 times with no issue when I changed the code. Code change took and I closed the door and re locked the safe or at least I thought I did) - at this point I could not reopen the safe. Each time I keyed in the code I heard a click but could not turn the handle and retract the bolts. About the fifth time it finally worked. I assumed it was a fluke and closed it again. Same thing, bastard did not want to open. At this point I was getting nervous and I changed the code back to the factory default. I then proceeded to open and close the safe 12 times without a single glitch. Ideas? Leave it unlocked until the lock is repaired or replaced. The way it is going the next time might lock you out and then you will in all likelyhood have to have that nice thick half inch plate steel door drilled. 
You DON'T want that!! |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/23/2015 11:35:07 AM EDT
[#29]
I talked to a very knowledgeable local Amsec dealer who is 100% positive on what the problem is.
This would fit into the rookie/newbie category. He said he sees this all the time, it occurs when someone has just gotten a new safe and is not used to always leaving the handle engaged all the way to the left after closing the safe. If there is a load of any kind on the bolt-work then the bolts will not retract, even though you hear the lock engaging. The lock motor is not strong enough to retract the bolts in such cases. He told me to make it a point to turn the handle all the way to the left and the problem won't happen again. If it does, call him up and they will service the lock. Looks like Amsec has a pretty outstanding local dealer in the Denver area (Wrangler Safe & Lock). |
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Posted: 1/24/2015 3:12:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bani:
so any conclusions yet if the lock duo is group 1 or not? I talked to the Sales Rep at SHOT this week, still not Group 1, and no word when specifically. They are talking about using the 4-wheel lock guts to make it happen, but no immediate timetable. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/25/2015 7:01:19 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
TSG, I'm on a lot of web forums, and I've got to say, this 67 page thread has been one of the best reads I've ever had. I've been in the market for a gunsafe for the last few months and almost pulled the trigger on a Lincoln Liberty; I'm glad I didn't. I originally contacted Frank Zykan to purchase one of his B-rate's, but it was not available. He pointed me toward an AMSEC BF, and here I am. I was planning on ordering an AMSEC BF6636, but stumbled on this today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Security-BF6032-120-Minute-Fire-Gun-Safe-/361129203507?nma=true&si=gc%252B5RpY0i7%252FOzG1QdDssJEYiqMk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 I won the auction on an impulse as the BF6032 is significantly smaller than the other safes I was looking at. I just couldn't pass it up for the price (that is a good deal right?LoL). What would be my next step in obtaining a combination or resetting it? Any advice about what to replace the fire seal with? Thanks, Andrew *update* the safe showed up and it had evidently been head butted by a unicorn while in transit. 
I refused delivery and placed an order for a NEW BF7240 just moments ago. I ordered with the optional ESL10XL, but am seriously considering calling tomorrow and swapping for a mechanical lock unless anyone can talk me into keeping the electronic upgrade. Thoughts? |
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Posted: 1/25/2015 7:13:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
*update* the safe showed up and it had evidently been head butted by a unicorn while in transit. <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg</a> <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg</a> I refused delivery and placed an order for a NEW BF7240 just moments ago. I ordered with the optional ESL10XL, but am seriously considering calling tomorrow and swapping for a mechanical lock unless anyone can talk me into keeping the electronic upgrade. Thoughts? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
Originally Posted By andrew1182:
TSG, I'm on a lot of web forums, and I've got to say, this 67 page thread has been one of the best reads I've ever had. I've been in the market for a gunsafe for the last few months and almost pulled the trigger on a Lincoln Liberty; I'm glad I didn't. I originally contacted Frank Zykan to purchase one of his B-rate's, but it was not available. He pointed me toward an AMSEC BF, and here I am. I was planning on ordering an AMSEC BF6636, but stumbled on this today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Security-BF6032-120-Minute-Fire-Gun-Safe-/361129203507?nma=true&si=gc%252B5RpY0i7%252FOzG1QdDssJEYiqMk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 I won the auction on an impulse as the BF6032 is significantly smaller than the other safes I was looking at. I just couldn't pass it up for the price (that is a good deal right?LoL). What would be my next step in obtaining a combination or resetting it? Any advice about what to replace the fire seal with? Thanks, Andrew *update* the safe showed up and it had evidently been head butted by a unicorn while in transit. <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg</a> <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg</a> I refused delivery and placed an order for a NEW BF7240 just moments ago. I ordered with the optional ESL10XL, but am seriously considering calling tomorrow and swapping for a mechanical lock unless anyone can talk me into keeping the electronic upgrade. Thoughts? What the Hell happened??? That had to be the shippers doing. About the lock... TSG puts a lot of stock in those Amsec ESL locks and has almost convinced me to not be so dogged in my "no way" attitude about them. Still,my BF6636 dial lock works great and never needs a battery. Your call. By the way is that safe you are returning gloss black?? |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/25/2015 7:39:49 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By heeler1:
What the Hell happened??? That had to be the shippers doing. About the lock... TSG puts a lot of stock in those Amsec ESL locks and has almost convinced me to not be so dogged in my "no way" attitude about them. Still,my BF6636 dial lock works great and never needs a battery. Your call. By the way is that safe you are returning gloss black?? I have no idea what happened. It happened during shipping and I was just amazed when I had her unbox it on the truck due to packaging damage. I'm in a very similar position on the lock. I'm a mechanical lock guy, but I'd read his posts here and decided to make the jump. I know it would make it far easier for my wife, be easier to reset, and be quicker for me; however, having hit the button I'm just experiencing a little cognitive dissonance. |
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Posted: 1/25/2015 8:06:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
I have no idea what happened. It happened during shipping and I was just amazed when I had her unbox it on the truck due to packaging damage. I'm in a very similar position on the lock. I'm a mechanical lock guy, but I'd read his posts here and decided to make the jump. I know it would make it far easier for my wife, be easier to reset, and be quicker for me; however, having hit the button I'm just experiencing a little cognitive dissonance. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
Originally Posted By heeler1:
What the Hell happened??? That had to be the shippers doing. About the lock... TSG puts a lot of stock in those Amsec ESL locks and has almost convinced me to not be so dogged in my "no way" attitude about them. Still,my BF6636 dial lock works great and never needs a battery. Your call. By the way is that safe you are returning gloss black?? I have no idea what happened. It happened during shipping and I was just amazed when I had her unbox it on the truck due to packaging damage. I'm in a very similar position on the lock. I'm a mechanical lock guy, but I'd read his posts here and decided to make the jump. I know it would make it far easier for my wife, be easier to reset, and be quicker for me; however, having hit the button I'm just experiencing a little cognitive dissonance. Well since you have already ordered it with the ESL give it a try. If after a period of time it gets wonky then replace it with a S&G 6730 dial lock. I actually wish now I would have gotten the BF7240 instead of my BF6636. At that time my 6636 was $2299 and the 7240 was $2999... I know... |
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Posted: 1/25/2015 10:34:47 PM EDT
[#35]
I love my Amsec electronic lock and I'm glad I let TSG's posts talk me into it. The light up keypad on the ESL5 is a great feature.
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Posted: 1/25/2015 11:35:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Would this be a good place to order from?
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:21:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: andrew1182]
[#37]
Quote HistoryThe original safe that showed up with a hole was bought from a reseller that sells factory returns and damaged freight. I bought it knowing there were small scratches and damage to the door seal; unfortunately, that safe was extremely accident prone and showed up with much more damage than it had when I agreed to purchase it. The 7240 that I ordered I bought from an online retailer (the one you linked actually). As they were roughly 35% less expensive than anyone I spoke with who was even remotely local. TSG, how about one of those signatures inside my door LoL? |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:51:42 AM EDT
[#38]
As they were roughly 35% less expensive than anyone I spoke with who was even remotely local. Somebody may want to check to see if they are in compliance with AMSEC's new pricing policies............... |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 1/26/2015 1:29:23 PM EDT
[#39]
what is the new pricing policies? something making me glad i ordered before this happened?
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Posted: 1/26/2015 3:56:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cj_the_pj:
what is the new pricing policies? something making me glad i ordered before this happened? My understanding of it is some internet outfit must still charge a set price for the safe per Amsec so the brick and mortar stores will not be unfairly disadvantaged. I too bought my Amsec BF (Oct. 2009) before this went into practice. However I did buy mine through a dealer and did not internet buy but I still got a smoking deal. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 10:33:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Good info to have! I might have found a dealer fairly local that I will be calling tomorrow.
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:56:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mugzilla]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
*update* the safe showed up and it had evidently been head butted by a unicorn while in transit. <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg</a> <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg</a> I refused delivery and placed an order for a NEW BF7240 just moments ago. I ordered with the optional ESL10XL, but am seriously considering calling tomorrow and swapping for a mechanical lock unless anyone can talk me into keeping the electronic upgrade. Thoughts? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
Originally Posted By andrew1182:
TSG, I'm on a lot of web forums, and I've got to say, this 67 page thread has been one of the best reads I've ever had. I've been in the market for a gunsafe for the last few months and almost pulled the trigger on a Lincoln Liberty; I'm glad I didn't. I originally contacted Frank Zykan to purchase one of his B-rate's, but it was not available. He pointed me toward an AMSEC BF, and here I am. I was planning on ordering an AMSEC BF6636, but stumbled on this today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Security-BF6032-120-Minute-Fire-Gun-Safe-/361129203507?nma=true&si=gc%252B5RpY0i7%252FOzG1QdDssJEYiqMk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 I won the auction on an impulse as the BF6032 is significantly smaller than the other safes I was looking at. I just couldn't pass it up for the price (that is a good deal right?LoL). What would be my next step in obtaining a combination or resetting it? Any advice about what to replace the fire seal with? Thanks, Andrew *update* the safe showed up and it had evidently been head butted by a unicorn while in transit. <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/safe1_zps567bf7cf.jpg</a> <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/andrew1182/media/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/andrew1182/SAFE2_zpsdb81e573.jpg</a> I refused delivery and placed an order for a NEW BF7240 just moments ago. I ordered with the optional ESL10XL, but am seriously considering calling tomorrow and swapping for a mechanical lock unless anyone can talk me into keeping the electronic upgrade. Thoughts? 
What gauge of steel is that again? (Yes, I know the answer is somewhere back in the 70 pages of this thread,....) |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2015 10:05:36 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mugzilla:
What gauge of steel is that again? (Yes, I know the answer is somewhere back in the 70 pages of this thread,....) That was a BF6032 |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/28/2015 10:39:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: EBFLA]
[#44]
Yikes 70 pages of safe stuff. Had to sign up after stumbling on this thread. My brain is busting and now I have a question of my own for TSG. I have a TL-30 safe that I believe was manufactured by AMSEC for International Fortress. It measures 52" H X 31" W X 29.75" D and weighs approx. 2300lbs. I'd really like to get the actual specs on this safe as it was rumored to be a TL-30X6 (initially commercial safe). Perhaps you could shed some light on this particular safe and what I should know about it. I've only ever used the keypad to open it with the dial moved to the stop. I don't even know if I can open it with the dial should the keypad crap out. Amazing job with this thread and I really appreciate guys that know their shit without smelling too bad.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/28/2015 11:46:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
The original safe that showed up with a hole was bought from a reseller that sells factory returns and damaged freight. I bought it knowing there were small scratches and damage to the door seal; unfortunately, that safe was extremely accident prone and showed up with much more damage than it had when I agreed to purchase it. The 7240 that I ordered I bought from an online retailer (the one you linked actually). As they were roughly 35% less expensive than anyone I spoke with who was even remotely local. TSG, how about one of those signatures inside my door LoL? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
The original safe that showed up with a hole was bought from a reseller that sells factory returns and damaged freight. I bought it knowing there were small scratches and damage to the door seal; unfortunately, that safe was extremely accident prone and showed up with much more damage than it had when I agreed to purchase it. The 7240 that I ordered I bought from an online retailer (the one you linked actually). As they were roughly 35% less expensive than anyone I spoke with who was even remotely local. TSG, how about one of those signatures inside my door LoL? I'm still waiting on my BF7240 HD ordered on Dec 5th from the place linked. Hopefully all 1900 pounds of it will be here soon. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:01:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
Yikes 70 pages of safe stuff. Had to sign up after stumbling on this thread. My brain is busting and now I have a question of my own for TSG. I have a TL-30 safe that I believe was manufactured by AMSEC for International Fortress. It measures 52" H X 31" W X 29.75" D and weighs approx. 2300lbs. I'd really like to get the actual specs on this safe as it was rumored to be a TL-30X6 (initially commercial safe). Perhaps you could shed some light on this particular safe and what I should know about it. I've only ever used the keypad to open it with the dial moved to the stop. I don't even know if I can open it with the dial should the keypad crap out. Amazing job with this thread and I really appreciate guys that know their shit without smelling too bad. That is indeed an AMSEC, custom private labeled TL-30 AMVault built for Southern California Safe Co. They wanted a domestic safe that looked like an ISM Treasury Safe made in Israel. I can't make out the date code, but I'm guessing that is a model built between 1997 and 2002. Nice safe (and AR too!). |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:18:39 AM EDT
[#47]
The date of manufacture is 02-04 so it's not new new but newish. I've been curious as to whether the dial will open the safe independent from the keypad. I have the combination but never tried it as the keypad works just fine. Are there any concerns with this model/vintage keypad that I need to know about?
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:31:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
Yikes 70 pages of safe stuff. Had to sign up after stumbling on this thread. My brain is busting and now I have a question of my own for TSG. I have a TL-30 safe that I believe was manufactured by AMSEC for International Fortress. It measures 52" H X 31" W X 29.75" D and weighs approx. 2300lbs. I'd really like to get the actual specs on this safe as it was rumored to be a TL-30X6 (initially commercial safe). Perhaps you could shed some light on this particular safe and what I should know about it. I've only ever used the keypad to open it with the dial moved to the stop. I don't even know if I can open it with the dial should the keypad crap out. Amazing job with this thread and I really appreciate guys that know their shit without smelling too bad. http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/lifeislarge72/IMG_4827_zps5nnwglmf.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/lifeislarge72/IMG_4757_zpshy1xqera.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/lifeislarge72/IMG_3569_zpsaf4e2fcc.jpg The UL label is for a TL30, not a 6 sided safe. Still, a pretty damn good safe. ---Aaron |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:33:09 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryI refused delivery and placed an order for a NEW BF7240 just moments ago. I ordered with the optional ESL10XL, but am seriously considering calling tomorrow and swapping for a mechanical lock unless anyone can talk me into keeping the electronic upgrade. Thoughts? ESL10XL is a fine lock. It is really a matter of personal preference, but I don't think you will be dissatisfied with it. ---Aaron |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 5:38:55 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EBFLA:
The date of manufacture is 02-04 so it's not new new but newish. I've been curious as to whether the dial will open the safe independent from the keypad. I have the combination but never tried it as the keypad works just fine. Are there any concerns with this model/vintage keypad that I need to know about? The two locks do not work together. These are two separate locks, and either one will lock the safe. Both locks must be unlocked to open the door. That is a LaGard 3600 in the auxiliary spot (right). The Primary Lock is most likely an S&G 6630 UL Listed Group 2M lock with a LaGard Open Face Dial up front. You should be concerned with only using the Auxiliary Lock to lock the safe. The Auxiliary Lock is not protected nearly as well as the primary lock. I would suggest you swap the locks if you want to use the digital lock only. |
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