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Posted: 11/15/2014 4:05:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BattleRifle:
OK, I had to dust off my physics book and made a couple of assumptions, such as the weight of the door but perhaps it would take about 1000 lbs. I don't plan on hanging anything near that weight, but I am the type of person that likes to know the complete envelope of parameters of all things that I own and use. Knowledge is power, even though it may be seemingly esoteric at the time. When you're dealing with a massive object that could kill you if it tipped, it just might be a good idea to be educated and use NIST scientific units instead of elephants or unimaginative idiots as a unit of mass. I have really gained a ton of knowledge from AMSEC the safe guy. I think we really owe him a lot for sharing fantastic information with us. I did a quick and dirty calculation, so don't hold me to precision, but this should be conservative. You should be able to hang approximately 1025 lbs on the edge of the door before the door mass is great enough to tip the safe. If the load was hung in the center of the door, the maximum would be bit over 2000 lbs. We do these calculations regularly on safe designs to assure consumer safety. Our benchmark to judge when a design is considered unsafe is when the mass-moment (torsional load) product ratio of the body to door falls below 1.75:1, or the weight applied at the edge of the door is less than 100 lbs. I put this balance ratio and load limit in play back in 1990, and we have stuck with it. It has never resulted in a problem. The stability of this particular safe without added loads is currently a bit over 3:1. |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 11/15/2014 8:44:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Thank you very much for taking your time to answer my question. It really reassures me that I will have about an eight fold safety margin for the things I want to hang from the door. I also want to thank you for suggesting that I put in the electrical access hole. I contacted AMSEC and caught the safe in the production phase just in time to add the hole. I'm designing an internal steam-proof cabinet that I initially thought I would not need a Golden Rod. However, I forgot that sometimes over long weekends, holidays etc, I let the heat go to 45 degrees in the building to save on utilities. Having a Golden Rod will not only reduce the tendency for water vapor to condense, but will keep the fireaarms a tad warmer and stable so that they will be more pleasant to handle immediately after arrival from the long recess. |
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DE, USA
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Posted: 11/17/2014 12:56:43 PM EDT
[#3]
TSG, when designing a safe, what is the thought process behind the number and location of anchor holes? For instance, I've noticed that many gunsafes come with four anchor points (typically one near each corner), but many small fire safes and homes safes have only one (usually in the middle of the safe). Why is one anchor considered adequate on say, a BF3416, but a gunsafe needs four?
I also have seen some manufacturers who put holes in the back of gunsafe, to bolt it to the wall, but a lot of the better safes don't have this feature. I've heard that bolting a safe to a wall can tweak the body slightly and cause problems in the long run; also heard that having anchor holes up higher hurts the safe's fire rating. Any truth to those ideas, or is bolting a safe to the wall just not necessary? When anchoring a safe to a wood floor, I assume it's desirable to get the anchor bolts into the joists, not just the thin floor itself. Depending on the size and location of the safe, that might or might not work out. I think it would be great if manufacturers would include in their specs the distance from the wall of the safe to the anchor holes, and the distance between the holes. I can't seem to find this info on the websites of any manufacturer I've looked at. Thanks again for your contributions to this forum. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2014 2:32:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#4]
TSG,
The new ESL5 looks good, especially with the backlit keypad...however, it appears it is offered only in a swingbolt design? Any plans for a slam bolt, and/or a standard bolt? Also, I have an old Amsec Wall safe with an original ESL10 (non XL) that is probably 12ish years old. Is it worth replacing it with an XL? I know there were a few issues with the original ESL10, specifically related to the capacitors I believe? Thanks in advance. ---Aaron |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 11/30/2014 3:25:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: andrew1182]
[#5]
TSG,
I'm on a lot of web forums, and I've got to say, this 67 page thread has been one of the best reads I've ever had. I've been in the market for a gunsafe for the last few months and almost pulled the trigger on a Lincoln Liberty; I'm glad I didn't. I originally contacted Frank Zykan to purchase one of his B-rate's, but it was not available. He pointed me toward an AMSEC BF, and here I am. I was planning on ordering an AMSEC BF6636, but stumbled on this today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Security-BF6032-120-Minute-Fire-Gun-Safe-/361129203507?nma=true&si=gc%252B5RpY0i7%252FOzG1QdDssJEYiqMk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 I won the auction on an impulse as the BF6032 is significantly smaller than the other safes I was looking at. I just couldn't pass it up for the price (that is a good deal right?LoL). What would be my next step in obtaining a combination or resetting it? Any advice about what to replace the fire seal with? Thanks, Andrew |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 11/30/2014 5:25:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#6]
Quote HistoryWhat would be my next step in obtaining a combination or resetting it? Any advice about what to replace the fire seal with? Well, since they have pics of the inside of the safe, I have to assume that it is not locked. Since the history is not known, and the safe looks a little beat up, it probably makes sense to just have the lock replaced. Wouldn't be that expensive. If you are set on keeping that lock, you will need to obtain a change key and find the instructions for resetting the combination. For an unknown combo reset, the process is you basically take the cover off the lock, use the change key to line up all the wheels, then line it them with the round hole for the change key tip in the back of the lock case. You then take out the key, put the cover back on the lock, and insert the change key through the change key hole following the standard combination change process. That all said, it would probably make the most sense to go to savta.org and find a safe tech in your area. Have him replace the lock and fully inspect all the boltwork. With a safe that beat up, who knows what it looks like behind the cover. You don't wanna find out the relocker is 1 bump away from firing. As for the fire seal tape, palusol seems to be the industry standard. However, I like 3M stuff, so I suggest the following stuff: http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/fire-protection-systems-NA/firestop/firestopping-products/firestop-system-selector/system-catalog/?PC_Z7_U00M8B1A0OP590IB369UJTI056000000_nid=9ZZNBJXF6ZbeVRFR28GR51gl Most places only sell it by the case, but this place sells it by the roll (albeit for over $75). Wrong picture for the item...it is a tape, not a caulk. http://www.thebuilderssupply.com/CRL-DPPHBB22-3M-Black-Expantrol-116-in-12-in-50-ft-Flexible-Intumescent-Strip_p_477316.html I am sure others will have their opinions. Don't mean to poach TSG's question, but I had to replace some fire seal myself recently. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 11/30/2014 6:22:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By abrace:
I am sure others will have their opinions. Don't mean to poach TSG's question, but I had to replace some fire seal myself recently. No, I appreciate the response. I hadn't intended on buying it but I did a quick ebay search and it was currently at $455 with 18 minutes left. I didn't have much time to make a rational decision. It is a new safe, and the company that is selling it appears to buy bulk returns. I thought that buying it for under $1,100 I was going to come out in good shape. I anticipated $250 in freight and a couple hundred to reset the combo; am I way off base here and opening up a can of worms that I'm going to be sorry for? Cosmetic blemishes really don't bother me as it will be placed in my garage and I have a 3 year old who is destined to start a demolition company... |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 8:05:03 PM EDT
[#8]
They sell damaged freight. No reason to switch the lock, as it is brand new, and doesn't appear to have been damaged. Hopefully the dial is key locked so that the safe will not lock between there and you.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 11/30/2014 11:04:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
They sell damaged freight. No reason to switch the lock, as it is brand new, and doesn't appear to have been damaged. Hopefully the dial is key locked so that the safe will not lock between there and you. With a trained eye like yours you could probably tell in 30 seconds if it was good to go or not after popping the cover. If it were my safe, I would replace it. The $60 bucks for a 6730 isn't worth the risk IMHO. Regardless, I think a detailed inspection by an experienced safe tech is probably money well spent. ---Aaron |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 5:19:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By abrace:
As for the fire seal tape, palusol seems to be the industry standard. However, I like 3M stuff, so I suggest the following stuff: http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/fire-protection-systems-NA/firestop/firestopping-products/firestop-system-selector/system-catalog/?PC_Z7_U00M8B1A0OP590IB369UJTI056000000_nid=9ZZNBJXF6ZbeVRFR28GR51gl Most places only sell it by the case, but this place sells it by the roll (albeit for over $75). Wrong picture for the item...it is a tape, not a caulk. http://www.thebuilderssupply.com/CRL-DPPHBB22-3M-Black-Expantrol-116-in-12-in-50-ft-Flexible-Intumescent-Strip_p_477316.html I am sure others will have their opinions. Don't mean to poach TSG's question, but I had to replace some fire seal myself recently. Sorry to spoil your day... I have seen the 3M stuff at work, not impressive at all. The Caulk, even less impressive. One competing safe we tested used the 3M caulk under braided fire rope seal, they had a very bad day. I don't know where anyone ever got the idea that the 3M tape was a viable substitute for Palusol. The properties are radically different. The Palusol reacts at 220ºF, but the 3M starts expansion at 392º and continues up to 536ºF. That's quite a big delay in response, and early response is vital to survival. By the time the 3M material has begun to react, the safe is already over the 350º limit. Believe me, that is in no way a working substitute, since those hot gases are pouring into the safe from the minute the fire starts. I would NOT recommend the 3M tape in place of Palusol. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 5:27:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andrew1182:
I won the auction on an impulse as the BF6032 is significantly smaller than the other safes I was looking at. I just couldn't pass it up for the price (that is a good deal right?LoL). What would be my next step in obtaining a combination or resetting it? Any advice about what to replace the fire seal with? Thanks, Andrew I think Frank's advice is sound on the Lock situation. Don't use the 3M seal though, get some Palusol if you can find it. Your dealer can order some from AMSEC if you can't find it. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 8:36:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By abrace:
TSG, The new ESL5 looks good, especially with the backlit keypad...however, it appears it is offered only in a swingbolt design? Any plans for a slam bolt, and/or a standard bolt? Also, I have an old Amsec Wall safe with an original ESL10 (non XL) that is probably 12ish years old. Is it worth replacing it with an XL? I know there were a few issues with the original ESL10, specifically related to the capacitors I believe? Thanks in advance. ---Aaron There are some new lock options on the horizon. Not quite ready for release yet, sorry. The newer ESL10XL is a better lock. Not from a reliability standpoint, but it's a tougher lock mechanically. Much stronger than the original. |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 8:51:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 123456abcdef:
TSG, when designing a safe, what is the thought process behind the number and location of anchor holes? For instance, I've noticed that many gunsafes come with four anchor points (typically one near each corner), but many small fire safes and homes safes have only one (usually in the middle of the safe). Why is one anchor considered adequate on say, a BF3416, but a gunsafe needs four? I also have seen some manufacturers who put holes in the back of gunsafe, to bolt it to the wall, but a lot of the better safes don't have this feature. I've heard that bolting a safe to a wall can tweak the body slightly and cause problems in the long run; also heard that having anchor holes up higher hurts the safe's fire rating. Any truth to those ideas, or is bolting a safe to the wall just not necessary? When anchoring a safe to a wood floor, I assume it's desirable to get the anchor bolts into the joists, not just the thin floor itself. Depending on the size and location of the safe, that might or might not work out. I think it would be great if manufacturers would include in their specs the distance from the wall of the safe to the anchor holes, and the distance between the holes. I can't seem to find this info on the websites of any manufacturer I've looked at. Thanks again for your contributions to this forum. Anchor holes are largely market driven options. The four holes in Gunsafes are just the norm. We used to have two. As for safes with only one anchor point, you will see that is more robust safes with heavier steel or smaller safes with dual walled construction. The truth is that one properly installed 1/2" anchor bolt can withstand over 10,000 lbs of pulling force. I'm not talking about the cheap plastic expansion anchors that we all supply with our low-end import models. I am referring to good quality US Made steel anchors of various types. We very rarely see safes that have been dis-mounted, and only then, when poor installation practices were employed. On light single-walled safes, more anchor points are necessary to prevent lifting at the corners where the steel can flex. It doesn't necessarily make it less secure, but the impression for the consumer is that it's better to provide the over-kill and remove doubt. Bolting to the wall is always making the installation better, but it's hard to do with base-boards and lack of squareness in normal building construction. A good installer knows how to adjust the anchoring to prevent the twist and tweak that comes from anchoring in two plains. Catching a Joist is vital to wood floor anchoring effectiveness. Wood flooring is far too thin to provide adequate anchoring. This usually requires drilling new holes in the safe floor to hit the heavy wood members unless you get real lucky with your placement. Good suggestion on the hole placement template. Maybe we can provide some hole pattern drawings on our website to help place holes properly. I'll check into that option. Most professional installers use a technique where a template is unnecessary, but a template would be nice. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/1/2014 10:41:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#14]
Quote HistorySorry to spoil your day... I have seen the 3M stuff at work, not impressive at all. The Caulk, even less impressive. One competing safe we tested used the 3M caulk under braided fire rope seal, they had a very bad day. I don't know where anyone ever got the idea that the 3M tape was a viable substitute for Palusol. The properties are radically different. The Palusol reacts at 220ºF, but the 3M starts expansion at 392º and continues up to 536ºF. That's quite a big delay in response, and early response is vital to survival. By the time the 3M material has begun to react, the safe is already over the 350º limit. Believe me, that is in no way a working substitute, since those hot gases are pouring into the safe from the minute the fire starts. I would NOT use the 3M in place of Palusol. Didn't spoil my day at all, that is good data to have. I know there is at least one leading gun safe manufacturer that seems to favor the 3M product for whatever reason...possibly cost or the supposed better (as in more) expansion characteristics, but you make a very good point on the lower activation temperature. Would be much better to get a seal starting at 220F vs 392F. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/1/2014 10:48:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryThere are some new lock options on the horizon. Not quite ready for release yet, sorry. The newer ESL10XL is a better lock. Not from a reliability standpoint, but it's a tougher lock mechanically. Much stronger than the original. Thanks, I will look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. I will pose this followup question to both you and Frank. Does it make sense to replace an electronic lock that is operating properly after some sort of time interval? Any value in doing so due to tin whiskers, potential corrosion, motor burning out, or any other time based issues? This particular lock runs like a top, but with any electronics that get daily use, I start to wonder if you are on borrowed time at some point. Mechanical locks are meant to be periodically taken apart, lightly oiled, even have the wheel packs replaced, but the electronic ones seem to be "maintenance free". Question is less specific to the ESL series and just regarding electronic locks in general. When is an electronic lock too old if ever? |
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Posted: 12/2/2014 1:48:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By abrace:
I will pose this followup question to both you and Frank. Does it make sense to replace an electronic lock that is operating properly after some sort of time interval? Any value in doing so due to tin whiskers, potential corrosion, motor burning out, or any other time based issues? This particular lock runs like a top, but with any electronics that get daily use, I start to wonder if you are on borrowed time at some point. Mechanical locks are meant to be periodically taken apart, lightly oiled, even have the wheel packs replaced, but the electronic ones seem to be "maintenance free". Question is less specific to the ESL series and just regarding electronic locks in general. When is an electronic lock too old if ever? I can not speak to competing products without causing some degree of chaos. I won't single out any one brand, but be aware that there are definite deficiencies in some lock manufacturer's products. As for our products, I think I mentioned in this thread, but maybe not. We test our lock products to 1 million cycles, without any maintenance. We also run extensive environmental and endurance tests. Unlike other safe companies, we own the warranty costs on our locks, and the safes they are sold on, because we make them. That has brought ongoing continuous improvement to resolve problems and make changes as soon as we realize issues. This is financially beneficial to us, as we save on expensive warranty, and that results in a better product for the consumer. Most lock-makers don't cover the cost of opening a locked out safe, so their exposure is minimal. We take the whole burden of a failure, so we are driven to preventative and proactive product evolution. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/2/2014 4:07:48 AM EDT
[#17]
What are my options on redundant locks? Looking to buy a bf7240.
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Posted: 12/2/2014 9:35:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By abrace:
... I know there is at least one leading gun safe manufacturer that seems to favor the 3M product for whatever reason...possibly cost or the supposed better (as in more) expansion characteristics, but you make a very good point on the lower activation temperature. Would be much better to get a seal starting at 220F vs 392F. If they had ever run real fire tests, they would know that the 3M product does not work. If you go back and look at the fire curve graphs (page 32), you will see how the majority of the rise in internal temperature happens in the first few minutes. Without a good seal, that happens even faster. There are curves we have not published, mostly because it would be easy for you to figure out who made the safes. We are not trying to discredit specific brands, we are trying to refine our products and alert the consumer to the lack of credibility in fire ratings in the industry as a whole. If you again look at the fire curve graph I published, notice that there was a 2-hour safe that went thru the 350º point in only 9 minutes. I predicted that failure, based on door seal design alone. In that case, it was not the type of seal, but the structural geometry that prevented the seal from closing the gaps around the door. That's what happens when the 3M seals are used too. By the time the seals expand enough, the safe is already on fire inside. One safe we tested hit 440ºF at 10 minutes... same deal, bad door seals. That safe interior was in a full burnout by then. Good 2-stage seal geometry and quality materials are vital to fire performance. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/2/2014 11:51:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: turnip75]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
If you go back and look at the fire curve graphs (page 32), There are curves we have not published, mostly because it would be easy for you to figure out who made the safes. Hmmmm..... do I smell a Sturdy gun safe being fire tested 
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Posted: 12/2/2014 1:14:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordracing19:
What are my options on redundant locks? Looking to buy a BF7240. There are two options. One is the LaGard 6441, where a LaGard LGBasic Keypad is paired with the 4-wheel LaGard 6441 lock with a standard dial. This install requires a second hole in the door to route the digital keypad cable. This requires a quote to have it outfitted. 
The other is the LP Locks Duo setup, where the Digital Keypad is offset to one side, but the cable runs thru the primary lock spindle hole (no secondary hole in the door). This is a write-in option for Gunsafe orders (part no. 4505880). 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/2/2014 9:37:04 PM EDT
[#21]
The bottom one is the option listed on the internet safe sites. How is reliability? I am scared to just get an Esl10 and have to have someone work on my safe at some point to open it.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/2/2014 9:44:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#22]
Quote HistoryI can not speak to competing products without causing some degree of chaos. I won't single out any one brand, but be aware that there are definite deficiencies in some lock manufacturer's products. TSG, I certainly don't want to get you in any trouble. However, Amsec sells a wide variety of electronic locks from name brands for use on their safes including Amsec, Lagard Basic, and S&G TItan, S&G 612X, etc. Do you get an opportunity to weigh on on the selection of these or is this done exclusiverly by marketing and product management? I am trying to not get you into trouble, but can a customer be assured that if they purchase an Amsec safe with any lock that you offer as a company, that the lock does not exhibit the deficiencies you refer to above? Have the manufacturers demonstrated to Amsec that their locks have passed a similar QA process? I certainly hope S&G and Kaba/Lagard are testing their locks similarly to the tests you do for your locks? Or, are some locks options offered by Amsec due to consumer demand that someone like yourself would prefer not be offered on your products at all...and no I am not referring to the really low end import safes that I am sure have locks you don't approve of. I am referring for locks meant for B rated up to 6 sided. The ESL series is a nice lock, as I have stated I own one myself, but there is not as wide of a variety of options for them vs other locks. For example, I have not seen a tapped bolt option, nor a "direct drive" option for boltwork that requires the lock bolt to lift or manipulate a load directly. I imagine the ESL was designed primary to support Amsec safes so these options may not be required based on your designs, but if the lock is as good as you represent, it would seem like a missed opportunity. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:06:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordracing19:
The bottom one is the option listed on the internet safe sites. How is reliability? I am scared to just get an Esl10 and have to have someone work on my safe at some point to open it. The LPLocks product is fairly new, and we have a relatively small installed base. However, as far as I know, it's been trouble free. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:24:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By abrace:
... However, Amsec sells a wide variety of electronic locks from name brands for use on their safes including Amsec, Lagard Basic, and S&G TItan, S&G 612X, etc. Do you get an opportunity to weigh on on the selection of these or is this done exclusively by marketing and product management? I am trying to not get you into trouble, but can a customer be assured that if they purchase an Amsec safe with any lock that you offer as a company, that the lock does not exhibit the deficiencies you refer to above? Have the manufacturers demonstrated to Amsec that their locks have passed a similar QA process? I certainly hope S&G and Kaba/Lagard are testing their locks similarly to the tests you do for your locks? Or, are some locks options offered by Amsec due to consumer demand that someone like yourself would prefer not be offered on your products at all...and no I am not referring to the really low end import safes that I am sure have locks you don't approve of. I am referring for locks meant for B rated up to 6 sided. The ESL series is a nice lock, as I have stated I own one myself, but there is not as wide of a variety of options for them vs other locks. For example, I have not seen a tapped bolt option, nor a "direct drive" option for boltwork that requires the lock bolt to lift or manipulate a load directly. I imagine the ESL was designed primary to support Amsec safes so these options may not be required based on your designs, but if the lock is as good as you represent, it would seem like a missed opportunity. The truly troublesome locks are not in our product offering. We quietly eliminate them from the options list. We sell what customers ask for, so we do offer a wide variety. We don't push our locks, we leave it to the customer to decide. Locks that don't sell, eventually get cut from the stocking options. Our stock offerings mix is largely driven by customer demand. We keep performance statistics on every lock model we sell. I am not at liberty to share that data though. I can say this... most e-locks are running failure rates at or below 1.0%. Locks that don't do that well die a natural death by market rejection and diminished demand. Mechanical locks perform at a similar rate, under 1% service incident rate. The ESL10XL/ESL20XL enjoys a much better service performance index at under 0.2%. Now remember this... E-Locks usually fail in early life. Also, these service rates are for ALL warranty incidents, of which only a small percentage are real safe lockout cases. Once they get a good long burn-in, they tend to last for very long periods until mechanical wear takes them out. These stats are "in warranty" period, meaning the first year of service. Mechanical locks reach their service life limits when they get up over 30,000 cycles. I have no idea what cycle life standards the other e-lock manufacturers use, but you don't see them boasting much about their life expectancy. Read that any way you like. We have an original KPL100 running on a safe that is now over 22 years old and still working perfectly... I hear similar stories all the time. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/3/2014 9:55:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryNow remember this... E-Locks usually fail in early life. Also, these service rates are for ALL warranty incidents, of which only a small percentage are real safe lockout cases. Once they get a good long burn-in, they tend to last for very long periods until mechanical wear takes them out. These stats are "in warranty" period, meaning the first year of service. Mechanical locks reach their service life limits when they get up over 30,000 cycles. I have no idea what cycle life standards the other e-lock manufacturers use, but you don't see them boasting much about their life expectancy. Read that any way you like. We have an original KPL100 running on a safe that is now over 22 years old and still working perfectly... I hear similar stories all the time.[/span][/span] TSG, Excellent info, thanks. ---Aaron |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/3/2014 10:03:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: abrace]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fordracing19:
The bottom one is the option listed on the internet safe sites. How is reliability? I am scared to just get an Esl10 and have to have someone work on my safe at some point to open it. I had one of the original Lagard redundants before they quit making them only to start making them again. The lock case is big and fat, much thicker than most lock cases, and there are a lot of parts in there. I am not convinced that they are as redundant as many would hope...there are many shared parts. When you enter the code, you still have to spin the dial to retract the bolt. It isn't like it is two completely separate locks. There are multiple parts that can break that would affect the function of the lock entirely. The complexity of the whole system was increased to allow it to work in this way. Time to open the safe is definitely longer than a normal lagard basic or S&G 61XX or a ESL. You put the code in, then have to rotate the dial until you get to 0, then a little more to retract. I am not sure it cuts much time off versus opening a standard 3 wheel lock once you get used to it. Maybe 5-10 seconds? It is definitely a neat concept, but it is far from the holy grail I see it talked about as. It also does not auto-lock. You have to again spin the dial to lock it and remember to do so...and I think many of us have come back to our gun safes only to see we left the dial unlocked. The best safe in the world does you no good if you forget to spin the dial to lock it up when you are done ;) ---Aaron |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/4/2014 12:18:47 AM EDT
[#27]
Thanks for that info Aaron. I'm almost tempted to go esl10.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/4/2014 12:40:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Is there a rule of thumb for gun collection value for safe cost? A decked out Bf7240-ln-f-pl with 4ga liner is $5500 so I should be at least keeping 200 HiPoints in it?
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Posted: 12/5/2014 10:13:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: juslearnin]
[#29]
TSG, are you familiar with zcorr storage bags?
http://www.zcorrproducts.com They have vci incorporated inside a foil outer layer. Supposedly they make a similar product for the military. I am wondering if they would protect firearms inside a safe in the event of a fire. Maybe you could team up with them next time you burn a safe and see if the bags survive and if they would protect guns from damage. If you do end up testing, it would be great if you tested their whole product line including the cheaper Velcro sealed bags, not just the more expensive vacuum seal bags. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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USA
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Posted: 12/5/2014 11:24:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: turnip75]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By abrace:
It isn't like it is two completely separate locks. There are multiple parts that can break that would affect the function of the lock entirely. The complexity of the whole system was increased to allow it to work in this way. This is the part that no one seems to realize or pay attention too. You really need 2 separate locks for complete redundancy or a design that doesn't share more than 1 or 2 common parts between the 2 systems. The Kaba Paxos bank lock is an example of this. It's designed for 15 million hours of operation and there has never been a recorded instance where both systems in the lock failed in 25+ years. TSG's comment about e-lock issues usually occurring during the burn in period is interesting. Every single Securam swingbolt (or deadbolt) is cycle tested 2000 times before they leave the factory. No other manufacturer that I'm aware of does this. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/6/2014 12:00:58 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryThere are some new lock options on the horizon. Not quite ready for release yet, sorry. What is the time frame to release information of the new lock options?
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USA
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Posted: 12/6/2014 5:06:14 PM EDT
[#32]
TSG, thanks for creating and maintaining this thread. I have learned so much from discussions. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on selecting a quality e-lock replacement. Thanks again...
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2014 12:44:55 AM EDT
[#33]
TSG. Be on the lookout for my BF7240 in Platinum Gloss with 4ga liner I just ordered. Havem put a little extra love in it!
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VA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2014 4:52:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Factory new BF6032 now sitting pretty at my house (ESL10XL and black chrome). The LED lights are awesome.
What kind of dehumidifier would be good? |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 12/23/2014 8:28:19 PM EDT
[#35]
I have a question for the Safeguy. I have a CFX703620. What would happen if some idiot or a bratty adolescent, mischievously force turned the spoked door handle while the safe was locked. Does the devise have a pin that shears or a clutch mechanism that will just skip or what. Would I be locked out and require a drill job or would there be an easier fix?
Also, I just want to say to Amsec that the CFX703620 is a marvel of engineering!!! I am very happy!!! There was only one minor irritation. I think someone at the factory may have put my electrical access hole in the wrong place. I requested it be at the bottom right on the back side. Instead, it is on the upper left corner on the back. Thanks!!! |
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Posted: 12/23/2014 9:43:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BattleRifle:
I have a question for the Safeguy. I have a CFX703620. What would happen if some idiot or a bratty adolescent, mischievously force turned the spoked door handle while the safe was locked. Does the devise have a pin that shears or a clutch mechanism that will just skip or what. Would I be locked out and require a drill job or would there be an easier fix? Also, I just want to say to Amsec that the CFX703620 is a marvel of engineering!!! I am very happy!!! There was only one minor irritation. I think someone at the factory may have put my electrical access hole in the wrong place. I requested it be at the bottom right on the back side. Instead, it is on the upper left corner on the back. Thanks!!! The handle assembly has a semi-clutch design, which will slip with more than 60 ft-lbs of torque applied to the handle. The design allows slippage when forced, but does not disable the handle function, so a lockout is not a concern. We recently reviewed this design, and it still performs to the intended specifications.. Sorry about that electrical access hole blunder. I'll report the screw-up to the right people. There is no excuse for a mistake like that. |
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Posted: 12/23/2014 9:44:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By casarez:
Factory new BF6032 now sitting pretty at my house (ESL10XL and black chrome). The LED lights are awesome. What kind of dehumidifier would be good? A simple GoldenRod is sufficient in most cases, and cheap too... |
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Posted: 12/24/2014 7:58:17 AM EDT
[#38]
I want to get a BF7250 soon, where's the best place to order from - direct?
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Posted: 12/24/2014 11:34:31 AM EDT
[#39]
Safe guy, i'm going to change my electronic lock over to a mechanical one. I see they recommend using a dial alignment tool, is this really necessary ? If so does anyone sell this tool at a reasonable price. ( all i've found are 99 dollar ones.)
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USA
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Posted: 12/24/2014 11:39:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: S65B40]
[#40]
For skolpatrol- Coming up on one year of ownership with my BF6030. Extremely happy! I ordered from safeandvaultstore dot com and was very satisfied. Fantastic pricing, excellent customer service and communication (changed colors and added 4 gauge liner a week after placing initial order), and perfect arrival upon delivery (not a nick of a paint damage anywhere- the local delivery service they used was outstanding). The Granite and Black Chrome combination is very appealing and the only think I would do different if ordering today would be to add the Gloss Black door option ($165) with the same Granite body. Love the safe and have zero complaints. Hope to upgrade to an Amsec RFX TL-30x6 one day and have real piece of mind
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Posted: 12/25/2014 2:58:34 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BLITZ999:
Safe guy, i'm going to change my electronic lock over to a mechanical one. I see they recommend using a dial alignment tool, is this really necessary ? If so does anyone sell this tool at a reasonable price. ( all i've found are 99 dollar ones.) You don't need no stink'in alignment tool... just not necessary. If you have issues, we can give you some tips to get it tight and right. MERRY CHRISTMAS to my ARFCOM family! |
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Posted: 12/25/2014 3:33:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BattleRifle: There was only one minor irritation. I think someone at the factory may have put my electrical access hole in the wrong place. I requested it be at the bottom right on the back side. Instead, it is on the upper left corner on the back. Thanks!!!  Just flip the safe over and you'll be good to go. |
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Posted: 12/25/2014 7:52:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jamierah1:
Obviously installation error. You must have it upside down Just flip the safe over and you'll be good to go. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jamierah1:
Originally Posted By BattleRifle:
There was only one minor irritation. I think someone at the factory may have put my electrical access hole in the wrong place. I requested it be at the bottom right on the back side. Instead, it is on the upper left corner on the back. Thanks!!! Just flip the safe over and you'll be good to go. I was going to suggest that, but thought it might sound a little smart-ass... |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2014 5:22:52 AM EDT
[#44]
any news on a group 1 lock duo?
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Posted: 12/27/2014 2:07:44 PM EDT
[#45]
any news on a group 1 lock duo? Already exists in the LaGard 6441. There are a few others that aren't rated yet, but likely will be in the near future. The 6441 has been around for awhile, and has a known history. If you need a redundant lock, I'd use it. If money is no object, then the Kaba Paxos is a great choice. This is a true redundant lock in use all over the world in high security applications. |
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Posted: 12/27/2014 4:48:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
Already exists in the LaGard 6441. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
any news on a group 1 lock duo? Already exists in the LaGard 6441. The LaGard 6441 is a Group 2M mechanical lock, with a Type 1 electronic lock mate. The Electronics Type 1 rating is intended to be the equivalent to the mechanical Group 1R rating. However, with a dual rated product, the lock package defaults to the lower of the two ratings. That means the LG 6441 is only Group 2M, and does not qualify for a Group 1 or 1R listing level. Technically, that means it can NOT be installed on safe with a TL30X6 or higher rating. |
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Posted: 12/27/2014 4:53:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bani:
any news on a group 1 lock duo? I have not heard anything. We will see the rep's at the SHOT Show in a few weeks. I'll get some feedback from them and share. |
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Posted: 12/27/2014 5:24:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#48]
The LaGard 6441 is a Group 2M mechanical lock, with a Type 1 electronic lock mate. The Electronics Type 1 rating is intended to be the equivalent to the mechanical Group 1R rating. However, with a dual rated product, the lock package defaults to the lower of the two ratings. That means the LG 6441 is only Group 2M, and does not qualify for a Group 1 or 1R listing level. Technically, that means it can NOT be installed on safe with a TL30X6 or higher rating. All of my literature says Type 1 electronic, Group 1 four wheel mechanical. I'll see if I can get a photo of the UL sticker. The Paxos is a Type 1 electronic/electronic redundant. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/28/2014 1:04:18 AM EDT
[#49]
Are there any other redundant locks like the 6441? It seems it was discontinued a couple years ago.
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Posted: 12/28/2014 11:08:49 AM EDT
[#50]
Are there any other redundant locks like the 6441? It seems it was discontinued a couple years ago. It is still available through a professional safe tech near you, as are a few other options. |
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