Originally Posted By stimpy13:
Is the RLB with a true redundant lock still only available on the BF series ?

What option do have to request to get that quoted ?

Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Sorry for my silence for the last few weeks all, I had my right hip replaced and I'm still recovering from all that.  This is the last surgery, after already replacing both knees. A lifetime of abusive stupidity had resulted in trashed joints that left me struggling to enjoy a normal life. High School football injuries, followed by a string of outdoor accidents in brought me the early demise of damaged joints that I could no longer endure. The final step is finally behind me, and in a few more weeks I'll be walking normally with endurance that I haven't seen for 15 years. Can't wait to start this newfound freedom with a few hunting trips that I sorely missed. First goal is to hit some Dove hunting in September. So, back to work...

Originally Posted By dkushner:I'm interested in looking at a used BF-SBT2116C and was wondering what you could tell me about this model. I've searched for the model and haven't found a single thing. Dimensions, features, weight, and all specifications would be sincerely appreciated.

The date code is Q1/03, built by SP. I can PM the serial numbers if that helps.

Originally Posted By PWR:
Thanks for all the great info, I hope this thread isn't dead!

TSG, do you know how many textured Chocolate Brown BF's have been sold, it seems like the vast majority are Sandstone and Granite?

Originally Posted By stimpy13:
Well according to my dealer the AMSEC slide out half is no longer an option, even as a custom build.

I would have thought that paying "custom" prices would have made it at least possible .

Any dealer out there with one is stock they would be willing to part with ?

Alternatively anyone know of an aftermarket slide out gun rack designed for Gun Safes ?

Originally Posted By redwoodm4:
TSG,
I'm really interested in getting a rfx703620, what's the steal thickness on the walls and door?

Originally Posted By SpookyPistolero:
There is a used amsec 6040 in an adjacent state. It has no electric ports. Does anyone know whether it would destroy the fire protection if I drilled a port in the back?

Originally Posted By DuncanHynes:
I am a new member but have been reading the posts here for Safe Information.  The ESF1214 was mentioned one time and TheSafeGuy did say it is imported and he isnt wild about any bio-print access.  Even still I like the size and 50lbs weight.  What is the battery type and expected life of this little bugger?  For handguns to keep out of 4 kids' hands all less than 10 years old.  Any info on the fingerprint reader ( no false access obviously a must.)  Many Thanks!

Edit, I asked my local dealer how much it will be for the ESL15 lock installed.  Thinking that would be a good combo for a fine safe for 4 handguns plus ammo and the like.  The pistol safe just too small and light.

Originally Posted By Conju:
@TheSafeGuy

Favorite battery for ESL10XL locks? I know Alkaline is a must, but do you have a Brand that's done better than others in your reliability testing?

So, the body of the TL-15 and TL-30 are subject to the same test at UL. That's a strange thing, considering the TL-30 should be twice the safe. But, it's actually the other way around. The TL-15 is subject to body attacks using the TL-30 tool complement and methods. I have proposed a review of that issue with the UL Standards Technical Panels, but to no avail yet.

So,, some time in the distant past, the UL687 standard was published. At the time, plate safes were the norm, and composite safes were usually just compliant plate safes wrapped in a cladding filled with concrete. In the late 80's, when the cost of steel started to skyrocket, the pressure to come up with lower cost construction drove manufactures to seek alternatives. UL had to accommodate these with some kind of "equivalency" test. As is still the case today, a TL-15/30 safe is allowed to be built from 1-inch thick ASTM A36 steel (50ksi tensile strength min) without being subject to test. They ran a test (when is not clear, but I believe it was mid-80's) with the TL-30 tool complement of the time and decided from that test that it took 8 minutes to open the 6-square-inch opening in 1" steel. That became the benchmark for "equivalency " testing. Hence, until the late 90's a body made from any construction that didn't include 1" 50ksi steel was tested with TL-30 tools for 8 minutes.  After a lot of heat, namely from yours truly, the issue of the TL-30 tool complement growing to be far more effective over the years, they re-ran the test and dropped the equivalency to 5 minutes. That is the standard today.

Bottom line is that the TL-15 composite/alternate body is subject to 5 minutes using the TL-30 tool complement. As mentioned, this is a formidable test where the clock is only ticking while tools are on the test specimen, and the team has all knowledge of construction and materials. It may seem trivial, but that 5 minute test can take up to 2 hours or more. They can attack as many 5 minute tests as they like, from any direction, edge, corner or surface. They can try as many different tool mixed approaches as they like. If they don't like the method they are working, they can (and will) stop the test, select a new path and start the test over again. The truth is that every re-test cycle (7 years), they raise the bar and construction is forced to be improved.

Originally Posted By DocBach:

TSG,

Does the BF6024HD have the same 3/8" door plate as the standard BF6024, or is it reinforced to 1/2" like the rest of the BF safes?

Originally Posted By JTHulkster:
So a question for TheSafeGuy on security sensors to switch it up a bit.  I am looking for best practice from what you know or have seen done before.

I am putting my Amvault in the garage so I had mounts welded for seismic sensors and now have decided to also add a balanced magnetic switch to the door per UL681, and maybe put a 1/4 hole in the body for electric supply for goldenrod.  Too bad you can not weld the switch or you would ruin the tamper.  My local locksmith said drilling the body will not be easy, but said that I could have mounted the seismic sensor mounts with screws to the body and have been done with it.   Am I correct that Amsec can discuss best location for 1/4 inch hole in body with safe tech with no view of door to make easy work of it, and that adding the switch is an easy install job based on locksmith's comment about sensor mounts using screws, and just as easy on the door for the magnet (it is a TL30)?  I was thinking that we would only sink the screws to the depth of the exterior metal shell for the body screws and the same depth for the door (properly tapped of course for the threaded screw).  Many thanks for your help.  

I hope they rebuilt you as solid as this product.

Originally Posted By nhojyelbom:


not sure if my find justifies a reward regardless i will be rewarded when my new WW6536 TL 30 is delivered next week incredible information in this thread, read every page. being into locks and some safe stuff as a hobby i already had a great understanding, but this is epic. glad the mods have not closed or restricted this

Bottom of page 3 from pdf
Gun Safe Catalog 2017 “2017” has a number 6 behind 7
http://i.imgur.com/I4G1Os8.png

Originally Posted By stimpy13:
TSG

Welcome back !  Glad to hear you are well ( and now improved ) !

I would up going with 6032HD with RLB . My vendor just could not get the RF6528 down the stairs and into the house.

It should be delivered this week and I will post pics .

Thanks again for all your help. I will PM you about the rack.

Originally Posted By Qranger:
Hi,

Can you repost the results of the gunsafe fire test on the bottom of page 16, posted 1/23/2014? Photobucket removed them. I wanted to share the information with a friend and correct some misconceptions he had on fireproofing.

Thanks

Originally Posted By DocBach:


What's RLB?

Loved my 6024, but my wife made me trade up to the 6032HD myself for the closet safe because she said for the small price difference I was an idiot not to.

Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:


Okay, I'll try to find a new wy to share photos. Photobucket has gone all hardcore and wants $400 for 1 year of sharing services because of hot-links.... screw that. Anyone have a suggestion?

Originally Posted By Qranger:
Hi,

Can you repost the results of the gunsafe fire test on the bottom of page 16, posted 1/23/2014? Photobucket removed them. I wanted to share the information with a friend and correct some misconceptions he had on fireproofing.

Thanks

Originally Posted By Conju:


I think silver members get hosting space on arfcom. Don't know if it persists afterwards but if it does then this site would be great. Imgur is good, too.

 Now for my dilemma... I own a BF6024 that stood for three days in 32" deep flood water thanks to Hurricane Harvey. I've been so focused on remediating my home that I've not spent any time on the safe other than opening the door and airing it out. If this were a drywall lined safe I know it'd be toast, but I have no idea how the DryLight fill would be affected. Even if the DryLight isn't compromised, I'm concerned about bacteria from the flood water as well as mold growth in the walls. Do you have any recommendations for salvaging the safe, or you think it's a total loss?  

Originally Posted By RMStrong:
TSG,

As others have expressed, I too can't thank you enough for taking the time to provide your insight and answer questions here.  In my experience, it is extremely rare to have someone in your position participate to this extent in forums such as this, so kudos to you.

Now for my dilemma... I own a BF6024 that stood for three days in 32" deep flood water thanks to Hurricane Harvey.  I've been so focused on remediating my home that I've not spent any time on the safe other than opening the door and airing it out.  If this were a drywall lined safe I know it'd be toast, but I have no idea how the DryLight fill would be affected.  Even if the DryLight isn't compromised, I'm concerned about bacteria from the flood water as well as mold growth in the walls.  Do you have any recommendations for salvaging the safe, or you think it's a total loss?

Thanks - appreciate any guidance you can provide.

Originally Posted By aaleyend:
TSG,

I am building a new home with safe room (concrete/rebar filled block room). I am going to get the VD8036BFIS vault door. I received the installation instructions from Julie Aynsley tech support. My question is: it only calls for 4 fasteners per side. It stated 1/4 lag screws, but since going into concrete the GC will be using tapcons or maybe LDT tapcons. A total of 8 fasteners seems very minimal? Can I use more or is 8 really good? Btw the shear on a standard tapcon 1 3/4 embedment in 2000psi concrete is 1,670 lbs. not sure if that's is good....
Thanks in advance!!

Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:


The VD Door Frame is a 2-peice clam shell affair. Once the inner and outer frames are overlapping and interlocked, the installer drills thru the overlapped frame and into the opening faces. The anchors are then subject to a direct shearing load under any attempt to pull on the door frame or the door. The anchor strength into the wall is not important, it's the shear strength of the bolts that keeps it together. A single Grade 8 1/4" bolt has a shear strength of roughly 4500 lbs. Four on one side, that 18,000 lbs force to shear the 4 bolts. So, the small bolts may sound like a weakness, but the technique employed does not rely on the anchoring strength, it all comes from the high shear strength of the bolts themselves. Even with Grade 5 bolts, the total shear force on one side is over 14,000 lbs. The door frame has a very wide flange overlapping the walls opening, so it's not pulling thru. Those kind of forces will probably pull the wall apart before the door frame fails....

Originally Posted By DocBach:
@thesafeguy

Just wondering -- what's the rationale for putting the 4ga steel as an inner liner as opposed to the outer layer in the BF HD's?

Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:


Well, that's a good question. So, the safe is made basically as two shells, one inside the other. The laser cut precision fit of theouter  tops to the sides and frames are all facilitated by the smaller bend radii and short flanges that are possible with 11 gauge steel. With the heavier 4 gauge thickness, the bend radii get much larger, and present limitations on the "short" legs that make up the profiles around the door. So, the whole design would be radically altered to make the outer shell with 4 gauge. On the other hand, the inner liner is not nearly as complex, and can be designed without any short formed legs that wold restrict use. Hence, the inner liner is the least disruptive alteration to the overall safe design. Moreover, the advantage of having the heavier barrier deeper in the construction makes it harder to cut thru, so that's a happy benefit to the approach.

Originally Posted By Conju:


Is it possible to TL rate this design or is it simply not secure enough?

Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:


Not quite, but close. Rest assured, development is not static. I'll leave it at that...

 I live in a city of over 300,000 and am having difficulty finding somebody to take delivery of a TL in gun safe size.  

Originally Posted By Zardonavis:
Got a question for TSG...

Im referbing/rehabing a old concrete lined jewelers safe made im guessing mind 1900's. by the Detroit safe company. The previous owner at some point took the doors off the safe and im guessing they fell over. all the concrete inside the doors is busted and most has came loose. after dismantling the doors and all the dolt work it looks like im gona have to replace the concrete as i don't trust the remaining peices to remain stable. if after time or a shift after closing a door a piece was to move it could prevent the bolts from withdrawing preventing the doors from opening.

Now i know this is old tech and Ive even questioned just removing the cement and not replacing it as i know this is not the best fire proofing but id like to do as much as i can as well as it doest hurt in a added layer to the prevention in breaking into it.

What would you suggest for a concrete mixture to put back into the door cavities once i get them cleaned/sanded/prepped? the stuff in there is not plain ol quickcrete as its softer then redimix but harder then firebrick or maybe plaster molds for ceramics. i can gouge it with a scredriver but it does have some weight to it but i dont think its the same ounce/pound per cubic inch/foot as regular bagged quickcrete.


Thanks in advance..

Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:



Safes of that vintage didn't have "high-strength" concrete by today's terms. We measure concrete by it's compression strength in PSI. Concrete in that time was likely not much more than 6000 psi. We still make TL-15 and TL-30 bodies with 6,000 psi concrete. High-Strength concrete is usually referred to where the compression strength is over 10,000 psi. Now, the "good stuff" today is not just conventional concrete. There are ingredients that can raise the bar considerably when you don't fixate on compression strength, and focus on the properties we care more about, that being ductility and impact resistance.

You might be surprised to find that Concrete is an excellent fire fill material. In fact, our AMVault line has a 2-hour factory listing that was tested to UL72 Class 350 standards, and passed. The concrete still retains tons of water to create the steam we need.

As for a home remedy to your dilemma, I would not hesitate to just fill it up with a batch of the "Red Label" Quickcrete. It's a fast-set concrete that get's really hard. Although I have not measured the strength, I have mixed it at home and found it to be very strong. Having hammered on a few safes in my days, I would say that stuff is pretty bad-ass.

Regardless of the type of concrete mix you use, the strength is inversely proportional to the water content when you mix. The less water, the stronger the mix. So, get some Quickcrete and make a well blended mix as dry as you can with everything still being wet. When you get base-balls in your hand that don't "slump", your doing the job right. "Slump" is a measure of the distance a pile of concrete relaxes and flows when it's released from a conic form of a specific shape. You want a near-zero slump to get real strong concrete.

Mix and be happy... but swift. That Red Label stuff sets real fast, like rock hard in 10 minutes fast. Concrete takes 28 days to reach 98% of it's full strength. But, most concrete will be ready for regular durable use in 7 days.