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Posted: 4/12/2016 10:28:07 PM EDT
[#1]
So today the Amsec Defense Vault under my bed stopped latching when I close it and slide the bolt back to the left. I can hear the solenoid click when I put in the code but it won't lock. Not uncommon for electronic locks to not lock when the boltwork is not moving far enough into the closed position. I would investigate everything closely, and make sure that when you're sliding the locking bolt it's sliding to full extension. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2016 10:57:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
Not uncommon for electronic locks to not lock when the boltwork is not moving far enough into the closed position. I would investigate everything closely, and make sure that when you're sliding the locking bolt it's sliding to full extension. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
So today the Amsec Defense Vault under my bed stopped latching when I close it and slide the bolt back to the left. I can hear the solenoid click when I put in the code but it won't lock. Not uncommon for electronic locks to not lock when the boltwork is not moving far enough into the closed position. I would investigate everything closely, and make sure that when you're sliding the locking bolt it's sliding to full extension. I banged it back and forth really hard and got it to latch one time but after that it still won't re-latch. |
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Posted: 4/12/2016 11:41:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Will it lock with the door open?
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2016 12:59:05 AM EDT
[#4]
Not currently, no.
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Posted: 4/13/2016 7:49:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Did you change the batteries?
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2016 2:11:38 PM EDT
[#6]
Yes I did. It seems that the idea that perhaps the bolt no longer extends fully so the latch won't engage is possibly the problem but I don't see how I could access the locking mechanism to check it out.
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2016 6:33:27 PM EDT
[#7]
Okay, so I understand why my defense vault doesn't work, no help from Amsec (I called them and because the safe is 20 months old they said "tough luck").
The little plastic "half moon" that is part of the ESL5 locking mechanism (the little brass colored box screwed into the top lid of the defense vault near the bolt that the keypad is connected to) is not locking.... I can move it freely with my finger whether it is "locked" or "unlocked". I talked to a local locksmith and they've never had one of these fail, so I guess I am just lucky. If I can remove it (not sure on clearance) they can sell me a new ESL5, of course it costs 1/2 as much as a whole new defense vault. Good times (tm). P.S. My local locksmith Wrangler Safe & Vault is phenomenal and gets 5 stars from me. Amsec customer service, 1 star... they couldn't even point me in a direction. |
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Posted: 4/13/2016 8:44:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BGENE]
[#8]
HI TSG, question for you:
Waaaay back in the thread somewhere it was discussed about storing handguns in plastic containers, like microwave safe plastic containers. If one was to use a microwave container, or possibly a waterproof fishing tackle container; and, assuming the pistol is in a VCI poly bag, further assuming a small pack desiccant was thrown in the container. Now the question: I have seen plastic containers that seal tight with O ring type seals (waterproof), and I have seen "normal" containers like polystyrene boxes and other plastic boxes that are not waterproof. Is it worth the difference to get the waterproof type containers with the seal vs. a non-waterproof. I guess the short version is, are air tight waterproof containers the best storage for a handgun in a VCI bag in a safe. Thanks for any expertise! |
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Posted: 4/14/2016 12:05:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Hello,
I just wanted to ask a quick question. This is a TL30 rated safe that came across my local ads today, I just wanted to see if it was an AMsec? It appears to be similar to the CF7236. It was built in 1996, if that matters. Thanks 
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Posted: 4/16/2016 2:02:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voip1:
So today the Amsec Defense Vault under my bed stopped latching when I close it and slide the bolt back to the left. I can hear the solenoid click when I put in the code but it won't lock. This is pretty concerning to me as I have a 19 month old running around the house.  . My wife is pretty ticked off.
Is there something I can check on this myself or is this a situation where I call a locksmith? I have no idea what the warranty is on o e of these suckers. I think I have had it 3 years or so. Sendme your specifics and I'll see that our service dept takes care of this... |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2016 1:03:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Sendme your specifics and I'll see that our service dept takes care of this... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By voip1:
So today the Amsec Defense Vault under my bed stopped latching when I close it and slide the bolt back to the left. I can hear the solenoid click when I put in the code but it won't lock. This is pretty concerning to me as I have a 19 month old running around the house. . My wife is pretty ticked off.
Is there something I can check on this myself or is this a situation where I call a locksmith? I have no idea what the warranty is on o e of these suckers. I think I have had it 3 years or so. Sendme your specifics and I'll see that our service dept takes care of this... Thanks I sent the specifics to you on the 18th per your Private Message but as of yet nobody has contacted me. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2016 4:53:37 PM EDT
[#12]
I was contacted and we are good to go now, thanks.
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Posted: 4/23/2016 10:35:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
HI TSG, question for you: Waaaay back in the thread somewhere it was discussed about storing handguns in plastic containers, like microwave safe plastic containers. If one was to use a microwave container, or possibly a waterproof fishing tackle container; and, assuming the pistol is in a VCI poly bag, further assuming a small pack desiccant was thrown in the container. Now the question: I have seen plastic containers that seal tight with O ring type seals (waterproof), and I have seen "normal" containers like polystyrene boxes and other plastic boxes that are not waterproof. Is it worth the difference to get the waterproof type containers with the seal vs. a non-waterproof. I guess the short version is, are air tight waterproof containers the best storage for a handgun in a VCI bag in a safe. Thanks for any expertise! Bump to end of thread for possible answer. |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 1:51:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
I have seen plastic containers that seal tight with O ring type seals (waterproof), and I have seen "normal" containers like polystyrene boxes and other plastic boxes that are not waterproof. Is it worth the difference to get the waterproof type containers with the seal vs. a non-waterproof. I guess the short version is, are air tight waterproof containers the best storage for a handgun in a VCI bag in a safe. First, sorry for the darkness, just had my other knee replacement surgery on April 12. The process is tenuous and you really are consumed with all the recovery efforts. Admittedly, we have never conducted any testing on this subject. It's perfectly logical to believe that if you can isolate the weapon from the moisture by sealing and desiccant as a precautionary supplement, you have a good opportunity to survive the fire without damages. The integrity of the enclosure is the big concern. Anything with O-Ring seals will depend on mechanical integrity at temperatures up to 350º, and that is a tall order. Thermal deformation is definitely going to change the seal geometry. A small container would probably do well, but one long enough for a rifle might not do so well. There are thermal gradients in the safe that are not insignificant, which are the factors that I would see as the primary concern. We just honored a safe warranty claim after a fire. The fire was not severe, but hot enough to cause steam generation in the safe. The interior of the safe was barely disturbed, and temperatures inside probably never exceeded 160ºF, based on the visible material reactions. However, the safe owner left the guns in the safe for three days before opening the safe up. All of the blued guns were severely rusted. Needless to say, the safe owner is not happy, but clearly we can't extend our warranty to cover damaged contents. This incident really demonstrates how important it is to get the safe open and the gun out as soon as possible after a fire. When I saw the photos, and estimated the guns were left overnight before removal. The owner later admitted it was three days. I have personally seen rust start on my blued guns in hours when exposed to sweaty hands and not oiled down immediately. Lesson learned. |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 3:23:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
First, sorry for the darkness, just had my other knee replacement surgery on April 12. The process is tenuous and you really are consumed with all the recovery efforts. Admittedly, we have never conducted any testing on this subject. It's perfectly logical to believe that if you can isolate the weapon from the moisture by sealing and desiccant as a precautionary supplement, you have a good opportunity to survive the fire without damages. The integrity of the enclosure is the big concern. Anything with O-Ring seals will depend on mechanical integrity at temperatures up to 350º, and that is a tall order. Thermal deformation is definitely going to change the seal geometry. A small container would probably do well, but one long enough for a rifle might not do so well. There are thermal gradients in the safe that are not insignificant, which are the factors that I would see as the primary concern. We just honored a safe warranty claim after a fire. The fire was not severe, but hot enough to cause steam generation in the safe. The interior of the safe was barely disturbed, and temperatures inside probably never exceeded 160ºF, based on the visible material reactions. However, the safe owner left the guns in the safe for three days before opening the safe up. All of the blued guns were severely rusted. Needless to say, the safe owner is not happy, but clearly we can't extend our warranty to cover damaged contents. This incident really demonstrates how important it is to get the safe open and the gun out as soon as possible after a fire. When I saw the photos, and estimated the guns were left overnight before removal. The owner later admitted it was three days. I have personally seen rust start on my blued guns in hours when exposed to sweaty hands and not oiled down immediately. Lesson learned. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
I have seen plastic containers that seal tight with O ring type seals (waterproof), and I have seen "normal" containers like polystyrene boxes and other plastic boxes that are not waterproof. Is it worth the difference to get the waterproof type containers with the seal vs. a non-waterproof. I guess the short version is, are air tight waterproof containers the best storage for a handgun in a VCI bag in a safe. First, sorry for the darkness, just had my other knee replacement surgery on April 12. The process is tenuous and you really are consumed with all the recovery efforts. Admittedly, we have never conducted any testing on this subject. It's perfectly logical to believe that if you can isolate the weapon from the moisture by sealing and desiccant as a precautionary supplement, you have a good opportunity to survive the fire without damages. The integrity of the enclosure is the big concern. Anything with O-Ring seals will depend on mechanical integrity at temperatures up to 350º, and that is a tall order. Thermal deformation is definitely going to change the seal geometry. A small container would probably do well, but one long enough for a rifle might not do so well. There are thermal gradients in the safe that are not insignificant, which are the factors that I would see as the primary concern. We just honored a safe warranty claim after a fire. The fire was not severe, but hot enough to cause steam generation in the safe. The interior of the safe was barely disturbed, and temperatures inside probably never exceeded 160ºF, based on the visible material reactions. However, the safe owner left the guns in the safe for three days before opening the safe up. All of the blued guns were severely rusted. Needless to say, the safe owner is not happy, but clearly we can't extend our warranty to cover damaged contents. This incident really demonstrates how important it is to get the safe open and the gun out as soon as possible after a fire. When I saw the photos, and estimated the guns were left overnight before removal. The owner later admitted it was three days. I have personally seen rust start on my blued guns in hours when exposed to sweaty hands and not oiled down immediately. Lesson learned. Thank you for the comments! So sorry to hear about your knee surgery, I hear that is a bear and one of the worst as far as pain and recovery, get better soon. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2016 12:48:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: M4bangr]
[#16]
SAFEGUY -
Lots of great info here, really appreciate you being on board here. I haven't read all 85 pages, but probably most of it and can say I've learned a lot. I've been looking at safes for a little while and came upon your FV series and the NF series safes. While I'm mostly concerned with guarding against a smash and grab type situation I do want a certain level of security too. I think the FV series safe would fit the bill, but it concerns me that it doesn't rate a RSC rating. I've read about and looked at safes that don't seem to be as well constructed as the FV safes and yet they are RSC rated. I don't get it. What does the FV series lack that keeps it from being rated RSC? Both the FV and NF safes have bolts an all four sides for a total of 14 bolts. They both look impressive, but obviously if the bolts aren't adequately supported and will give and bend in a pry attack what good are they. The NF safes seem to be quite a step up in security from the FV safes and I will have to give these a closer look, but the price jumps quite a bit too. But that's just the nature of the beast. BTW - Your warranty is amazing. Edit: Just looking for your input on these two safes. |
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Posted: 5/5/2016 10:04:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M4bangr:
I've been looking at safes for a little while and came upon your FV series and the NF series safes. While I'm mostly concerned with guarding against a smash and grab type situation I do want a certain level of security too. I think the FV series safe would fit the bill, but it concerns me that it doesn't rate a RSC rating. I've read about and looked at safes that don't seem to be as well constructed as the FV safes and yet they are RSC rated. I don't get it. What does the FV series lack that keeps it from being rated RSC? Both the FV and NF safes have bolts an all four sides for a total of 14 bolts. They both look impressive, but obviously if the bolts aren't adequately supported and will give and bend in a pry attack what good are they. The NF safes seem to be quite a step up in security from the FV safes and I will have to give these a closer look, but the price jumps quite a bit too. But that's just the nature of the beast. Edit: Just looking for your input on these two safes. Well, this is not an easy question to answer in a few words. There are significant differences in the FV and NF line. First, the NF has a 90 minute fire rating, the FV has a 45 minute rating. Second, the NF is a listed RSC safe, assembled in the USA. The FV is a 100% import product, made with the "native" Chinese boltwork system, albeit substantially improved over competitors that buy the "stock" Chinese safe lines (customized for AMSEC with heavier reinforced component upgrades and better locks) . The NF has heavier steel thicknesses throughout, as well as a much better hard-plate and other security features. Bolt counts may be the same, but on the inside the NF is considerably more robust. Comparing the two safes is like comparing a Honda Civic to an Acura NSX. There is hardly a single set of attributes where there is an even comparison. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2016 5:21:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8mpg]
[#18]
Hey guys...just got my Amsec BF7250 delivered the other day and had a safe moving company help me bring it in. I have a problem though and not sure if its a big problem or not. The bottom hinge has a crack. I doubt its structural, I believe its just a cover to make the hinge look better but here are some pics. Any advice? The safe was like this when it came out of the box. The box looked fine on the front. Had a couple holes on the back of the box and a few scuffs on the back but the front looked fine. Just noticed this before the safe guys moved it.
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Posted: 5/18/2016 7:08:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 8mpg:
Hey guys...just got my Amsec BF7250 delivered the other day and had a safe moving company help me bring it in. I have a problem though and not sure if its a big problem or not. The bottom hinge has a crack. I doubt its structural, I believe its just a cover to make the hinge look better but here are some pics. Any advice? The safe was like this when it came out of the box. The box looked fine on the front. Had a couple holes on the back of the box and a few scuffs on the back but the front looked fine. Just noticed this before the safe guys moved it. Your photos are not visible. The hinges are indeed covered with a sheet metal shell, and there is a heavy steel block under that shell with healthy welds. The problem is purely cosmetic, I can assure you. Please PM me with details, and I can see what we can do to resolve the issue. |
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Posted: 5/18/2016 7:28:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: vellnueve]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Your photos are not visible. The hinges are indeed covered with a sheet metal shell, and there is a heavy steel block under that shell with healthy welds. The problem is purely cosmetic, I can assure you. Please PM me with details, and I can see what we can do to resolve the issue. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By 8mpg:
Hey guys...just got my Amsec BF7250 delivered the other day and had a safe moving company help me bring it in. I have a problem though and not sure if its a big problem or not. The bottom hinge has a crack. I doubt its structural, I believe its just a cover to make the hinge look better but here are some pics. Any advice? The safe was like this when it came out of the box. The box looked fine on the front. Had a couple holes on the back of the box and a few scuffs on the back but the front looked fine. Just noticed this before the safe guys moved it. Your photos are not visible. The hinges are indeed covered with a sheet metal shell, and there is a heavy steel block under that shell with healthy welds. The problem is purely cosmetic, I can assure you. Please PM me with details, and I can see what we can do to resolve the issue. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2016 8:14:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By vellnueve:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By 8mpg:
Hey guys...just got my Amsec BF7250 delivered the other day and had a safe moving company help me bring it in. I have a problem though and not sure if its a big problem or not. The bottom hinge has a crack. I doubt its structural, I believe its just a cover to make the hinge look better but here are some pics. Any advice? The safe was like this when it came out of the box. The box looked fine on the front. Had a couple holes on the back of the box and a few scuffs on the back but the front looked fine. Just noticed this before the safe guys moved it. Your photos are not visible. The hinges are indeed covered with a sheet metal shell, and there is a heavy steel block under that shell with healthy welds. The problem is purely cosmetic, I can assure you. Please PM me with details, and I can see what we can do to resolve the issue. http://i.imgur.com/RwMj4HA.jpg Thanks for fixing the link. |
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Posted: 5/18/2016 8:32:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Something hit the safe, or the safe hit something else. That's damage caused by crushing.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/19/2016 2:10:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
Something hit the safe, or the safe hit something else. That's damage caused by crushing. Thats my thought...Surprisingly the box looked fine from the front. |
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Posted: 5/19/2016 2:28:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 8mpg:
That's my thought...Surprisingly the box looked fine from the front. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 8mpg:
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Something hit the safe, or the safe hit something else. That's damage caused by crushing. That's my thought...Surprisingly the box looked fine from the front. Unfortunately, that is clearly freight damage. To get a freight claim files, the receiving party must notify the shipper immediately. Preferably documenting before the driver leaves. They will deny responsibility unless you call them out directly. We can assist on our side with pressure and paperwork, so we need to file a claim. I'll forward your contact info to our service department, and they will start the wheels turning. To repair that much damage "correctly" can get quite expensive, like $200 or more. You should have some touch-up paint in the safe. Hope that we succeed here. For the readers herein... getting complete relief form freight damage is a serious problem, and carriers are very difficult, particularly with hidden damages that are not visible until you up-pack the product. Word to the wise... ALWAYS UNPACK THE SAFE at delivery time, and point out any damages to the driver. Take pictures, and immediately initiate a freight claim or refuse the delivery. Get the driver to provide a written acknowledgement of the damages found at delivery time. This will make complete resolution a cake-walk. |
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Posted: 5/19/2016 2:43:20 PM EDT
[#25]
SafeGuy:
I purchased a BF7240 last summer. I have contacted AmSec numerous times over these many months by email to try to get my safe registered. They never respond. Do you know where should I direct my inquiry? Thanks. |
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Posted: 5/19/2016 4:55:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WaRock:
SafeGuy: I purchased a BF7240 last summer. I have contacted AmSec numerous times over these many months by email to try to get my safe registered. They never respond. Do you know where should I direct my inquiry? Thanks. Please send me a PM with your contact information and Safe Serial Number. I'll find out what's going on.... |
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Posted: 5/19/2016 5:30:26 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Unfortunately, that is clearly freight damage. To get a freight claim files, the receiving party must notify the shipper immediately. Preferably documenting before the driver leaves. They will deny responsibility unless you call them out directly. We can assist on our side with pressure and paperwork, so we need to file a claim. I'll forward your contact info to our service department, and they will start the wheels turning. To repair that much damage "correctly" can get quite expensive, like $200 or more. You should have some touch-up paint in the safe. Hope that we succeed here. For the readers herein... getting complete relief form freight damage is a serious problem, and carriers are very difficult, particularly with hidden damages that are not visible until you up-pack the product. Word to the wise... ALWAYS UNPACK THE SAFE at delivery time, and point out any damages to the driver. Take pictures, and immediately initiate a freight claim or refuse the delivery. Get the driver to provide a written acknowledgement of the damages found at delivery time. This will make complete resolution a cake-walk. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By 8mpg:
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Something hit the safe, or the safe hit something else. That's damage caused by crushing. That's my thought...Surprisingly the box looked fine from the front. Unfortunately, that is clearly freight damage. To get a freight claim files, the receiving party must notify the shipper immediately. Preferably documenting before the driver leaves. They will deny responsibility unless you call them out directly. We can assist on our side with pressure and paperwork, so we need to file a claim. I'll forward your contact info to our service department, and they will start the wheels turning. To repair that much damage "correctly" can get quite expensive, like $200 or more. You should have some touch-up paint in the safe. Hope that we succeed here. For the readers herein... getting complete relief form freight damage is a serious problem, and carriers are very difficult, particularly with hidden damages that are not visible until you up-pack the product. Word to the wise... ALWAYS UNPACK THE SAFE at delivery time, and point out any damages to the driver. Take pictures, and immediately initiate a freight claim or refuse the delivery. Get the driver to provide a written acknowledgement of the damages found at delivery time. This will make complete resolution a cake-walk. Excellent advice for any type of delivery. Thanks TSG, this thread and your good advice just keep on delivering. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/19/2016 5:35:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Unfortunately, that is clearly freight damage. To get a freight claim files, the receiving party must notify the shipper immediately. Preferably documenting before the driver leaves. They will deny responsibility unless you call them out directly. We can assist on our side with pressure and paperwork, so we need to file a claim. I'll forward your contact info to our service department, and they will start the wheels turning. To repair that much damage "correctly" can get quite expensive, like $200 or more. You should have some touch-up paint in the safe. Hope that we succeed here. For the readers herein... getting complete relief form freight damage is a serious problem, and carriers are very difficult, particularly with hidden damages that are not visible until you up-pack the product. Word to the wise... ALWAYS UNPACK THE SAFE at delivery time, and point out any damages to the driver. Take pictures, and immediately initiate a freight claim or refuse the delivery. Get the driver to provide a written acknowledgement of the damages found at delivery time. This will make complete resolution a cake-walk. Thanks for the advice. I believe I can use tap teh cover back to where it goes with a hammer and a bar, then paint it. Its not structural so Im not too worried about it. I had enough nightmare with the freight guys (went through 2 freight companies) and dont feel like messing with it. Im sure both companies will deny responsibility. Its an easy fix for me. Tim |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 2:00:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WaRock]
[#29]
Thanks. It will be a few days, but I'll get it done.
ETA - this is a response to TSG's offer to look into my issue with registering my safe with AMSEC |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2016 2:50:38 AM EDT
[#30]
hello TSG - new member here, been lurking for a couple of months doing research on a gun safe. Just placed an order for a BF6030HD, but have a follow-up question. I really like the idea of the duo lock you guys offer, but the vendor I ordered through says they have reliability problems and pretty much talked me out of it. For sheer reliability purposes, I would rather get a dial/combo lock but I know that my wife would refuse to use it so I ended up ordering the esl10-xl. Since I placed the order, I've been reading up quite a bit labout the lagard 6114 and the nl duet; is it possible to get either one of these setups on my shiny new rsc? I'm buying this for the long haul and from everything I've read and heard about any electronic lock, it's not "if" but "when" it will fail (and necessitate drilling/replacement). Thanks for your insight!
Wally |
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Posted: 5/27/2016 11:44:55 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wallstrum:
hello TSG - new member here, been lurking for a couple of months doing research on a gun safe. Just placed an order for a BF6030HD, but have a follow-up question. I really like the idea of the duo lock you guys offer, but the vendor I ordered through says they have reliability problems and pretty much talked me out of it. For sheer reliability purposes, I would rather get a dial/combo lock but I know that my wife would refuse to use it so I ended up ordering the esl10-xl. Since I placed the order, I've been reading up quite a bit about the lagard 6114 and the nl duet; is it possible to get either one of these setups on my shiny new rsc? I'm buying this for the long haul and from everything I've read and heard about any electronic lock, it's not "if" but "when" it will fail (and necessitate drilling/replacement). Thanks for your insight! Wally Well, this is an another one of those awkward situations that we have been debating. There is no issue using the NL Locks Duo lock. The face plate (escutcheon) provides a channel to run the digital lock wires under the mechanical lock dial, so safe modifications are not necessary to use this kit. As for the LaGard option, I know that several competitors have been installing the 6441 on their gunsafes. I see pictures in the safe photo threads all the time. Here is the rub... that lock kit requires a second hole is drilled thru the door to route the digital keypad cable. That is a modification that would NOT be allowed unless it is specifically reviewed, possibly tested, accepted and documented in the manufacturer's UL Follow-up Services (FUS) inspection procedure files. Most of our gunsafe competitors have one UL file for their RSC rating, so the risk for them is very small if they get called out on the matter. The cost associated to adding this wire access hole allowance to a UL file is not trivial, probably $3000 to as much as $8,000 depending on what UL might want to do to assure security is not compromised. My guess is that they would require some kind of hole blocking mechanism so straight-thru access is not possible. They may require a test to assure the design does not compromise security. Keep in mind, UL is extremely conservative, and they take everything very seriously, even a little hole in a door on an RSC safe. Since most all of the gunsafe players with listings got their RSC more than a decade ago, and the 6441 came along well after that rush to get the rating in the late 90's, manufactures have probably not spent the money and time to revise their files to add this allowance to their UL FUS inspection procedure file. They assume it's okay to just drill another hole in their door. We (AMSEC) maintain active UL listings in multiple categories (RSC, TL15, TL30, TL30x6, 1/2Hr, 1Hr and 2Hr Fire ratings, and multiple Type 2 and Type 1 Lock listings). With so many ratings "at risk", we are VERY conservative when it comes to crossing the line with UL. We follow the letter of the law across the board. If you start intentionally doing things that are not authorized and get caught, it casts a shadow of doubt over all of your compliance practices. That's not a place you want to go. Clearly you can see that the very small demand for the redundant lock on RSC safes would not justify so much expense. That is why NL Locks made the Duo face plate to begin with, so compliance was not compromised to facilitate installation. Think about it.... |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2016 12:26:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Well, this is an another one of those awkward situations that we have been debating. There is no issue using the NL Locks Duo lock. The face plate (escutcheon) provides a channel to run the digital lock wires under the mechanical lock dial, so safe modifications are not necessary to use this kit. As for the LaGard option, I know that several competitors have been installing the 6441 on their gunsafes. I see pictures in the safe photo threads all the time. Here is the rub... that lock kit requires a second hole is drilled thru the door to route the digital keypad cable. That is a modification that would NOT be allowed unless it is specifically reviewed, possibly tested, accepted and documented in the manufacturer's UL Follow-up Services (FUS) inspection procedure files. Most of our gunsafe competitors have one UL file for their RSC rating, so the risk for them is very small if they get called out on the matter. . . (can't include the whole quote due to new account character limitations) . . TSG - that makes only too much sense, and is a very respectable practice. On the topic of the duo lock, what have you seen from a reliability perspective compared to esl10-xl? I really want to make sure this is not only going to be reliable in the long term, but I need to make sure my wife can get into it too. Thank you! |
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Posted: 5/27/2016 7:26:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wallstrum:
TSG - that makes only too much sense, and is a very respectable practice. On the topic of the duo lock, what have you seen from a reliability perspective compared to esl10-xl? I really want to make sure this is not only going to be reliable in the long term, but I need to make sure my wife can get into it too. Thank you! Well, here are the real numbers... we have sold 339 Duo Kits on safes in the last three years. We have 26 Service Cases logged for that lock model in that same time-frame. Now, to be honest, not all cases are lock failures, but I don't have time to drill into every case and figure out what happened and say that those cases were actually lock failures. So, assume half of those are trivial cases that didn't require safes to be drilled open. That assumption indicates we have a service rate of around 3.8%. Again, admitting some gross assumptions here, but real numbers from Sales and Service history, so take this at face value. That number is about 3X more than most other name-brand e-locks on the market that we actively sell and track. The ESL10XL service rates annual average is about 0.1%. Use those stats as you please. We are very proud of our efforts to reduce our e-lock service rates with aggressive continuous improvement programs. |
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Posted: 5/28/2016 8:57:08 AM EDT
[#34]
As for the LaGard option, I know that several competitors have been installing the 6441 on their gunsafes. I see pictures in the safe photo threads all the time. Here is the rub... that lock kit requires a second hole is drilled thru the door to route the digital keypad cable. That is a modification that would NOT be allowed unless it is specifically reviewed, possibly tested, accepted and documented in the manufacturer's UL Follow-up Services (FUS) inspection procedure files.
Most of our gunsafe competitors have one UL file for their RSC rating, so the risk for them is very small if they get called out on the matter. The cost associated to adding this wire access hole allowance to a UL file is not trivial, probably $3000 to as much as $8,000 depending on what UL might want to do to assure security is not compromised. My guess is that they would require some kind of hole blocking mechanism so straight-thru access is not possible. They may require a test to assure the design does not compromise security. Keep in mind, UL is extremely conservative, and they take everything very seriously, even a little hole in a door on an RSC safe. Everything TSG says here is true, but let's use a little bit of common sense here. Every safe with a UL rating tends to have a hole in the door that goes directly to the lock. Hole through the door, hole through the drill resistant hard plate, hole through any relocking device that sits between the lock and door. Straight through, directly to the one thing that keeps the safe closed. If the safe uses an electronic lock, this hole is 100% exposed by removing the keypad. If that hole is not a problem, then neither is a second hole that terminates to air. Let's also consider than your average gun safe is 1/8" steel. It would take a bad guy with a drill exactly 5 seconds to pop a 1/4" hole through the safe anywhere they wished. I can assure you that a second wire hole for a keypad on a gun safe with an RSC rating will have just about zero impact on the security of the safe. |
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Posted: 5/28/2016 9:28:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
Everything TSG says here is true, but let's use a little bit of common sense here. Every safe with a UL rating tends to have a hole in the door that goes directly to the lock. Hole through the door, hole through the drill resistant hard plate, hole through any relocking device that sits between the lock and door. Straight through, directly to the one thing that keeps the safe closed. If the safe uses an electronic lock, this hole is 100% exposed by removing the keypad. If that hole is not a problem, then neither is a second hole that terminates to air. Let's also consider than your average gun safe is 1/8" steel. It would take a bad guy with a drill exactly 5 seconds to pop a 1/4" hole through the safe anywhere they wished. I can assure you that a second wire hole for a keypad on a gun safe with an RSC rating will have just about zero impact on the security of the safe. With all due respect, after 28 years testing at UL, and sitting on the Standards Technical Panel for the Burglary Standards, I can assure you that UL is not so liberal. Maybe it's an absurd assertion, but they do what they feel is best, and you can't change their ultra conservative posture. It doesn't matter if you think it's a trivial matter. They are the judge and jury. If that second hole does not appear in your drawings in the FUS package, it's not allowed, period. It doesn't matter if it's an RSC, or a TRTL60X6. We won't cross that line, and for very good reason... |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 5/31/2016 2:03:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Well, here are the real numbers... we have sold 339 Duo Kits on safes in the last three years. We have 26 Service Cases logged for that lock model in that same time-frame. Now, to be honest, not all cases are lock failures, but I don't have time to drill into every case and figure out what happened and say that those cases were actually lock failures. So, assume half of those are trivial cases that didn't require safes to be drilled open. That assumption indicates we have a service rate of around 3.8%. Again, admitting some gross assumptions here, but real numbers from Sales and Service history, so take this at face value. That number is about 3X more than most other name-brand e-locks on the market that we actively sell and track. The ESL10XL service rates annual average is about 0.1%. Use those stats as you please. We are very proud of our efforts to reduce our e-lock service rates with aggressive continuous improvement programs. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By wallstrum:
TSG - that makes only too much sense, and is a very respectable practice. On the topic of the duo lock, what have you seen from a reliability perspective compared to esl10-xl? I really want to make sure this is not only going to be reliable in the long term, but I need to make sure my wife can get into it too. Thank you! Well, here are the real numbers... we have sold 339 Duo Kits on safes in the last three years. We have 26 Service Cases logged for that lock model in that same time-frame. Now, to be honest, not all cases are lock failures, but I don't have time to drill into every case and figure out what happened and say that those cases were actually lock failures. So, assume half of those are trivial cases that didn't require safes to be drilled open. That assumption indicates we have a service rate of around 3.8%. Again, admitting some gross assumptions here, but real numbers from Sales and Service history, so take this at face value. That number is about 3X more than most other name-brand e-locks on the market that we actively sell and track. The ESL10XL service rates annual average is about 0.1%. Use those stats as you please. We are very proud of our efforts to reduce our e-lock service rates with aggressive continuous improvement programs. exactly the info i needed to confirm that i made the right decision - thank you! i have now read the majority of this thread and i owe you a very sincere thanks for all of the info and expertise you have blessed us with (along with frank and a few other guys too!). can i talk you into signing my bf? thank you! wally |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/17/2016 8:48:15 AM EDT
[#37]
In regards to the BF6024HD, how many rifles (AR's & SCAR's with either red dots or scopes) will realistically fit in this safe?
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Posted: 6/18/2016 9:38:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMad316:
In regards to the BF6024HD, how many rifles (AR's & SCAR's with either red dots or scopes) will realistically fit in this safe? Well, that depends a lot on the mounted accessories on your gun collection. The all-gun arrangement says 16 Guns in the racks (8 on each side), and one on the door, so 17 total. Realistically, take away 2 guns per rack unless you are stacking simple deer rifles and shotguns. The regular profile of an AR frame is a bit thick. You can definitely get a full load and better, but it takes some strategic gun orientation, tilts and staggering the barrels up and down to nest the gun features to get a more dense loading. For those that really want to pack as many long guns as possible, taking out the rack and using Barrel Rods hanging from the top shelf will allow a lot more capacity. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2016 10:11:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Well, that depends a lot on the mounted accessories on your gun collection. The all-gun arrangement says 16 Guns in the racks (8 on each side), and one on the door, so 17 total. Realistically, take away 2 guns per rack unless you are stacking simple deer rifles and shotguns. The regular profile of an AR frame is a bit thick. You can definitely get a full load and better, but it takes some strategic gun orientation, tilts and staggering the barrels up and down to nest the gun features to get a more dense loading. For those that really want to pack as many long guns as possible, taking out the rack and using Barrel Rods hanging from the top shelf will allow a lot more capacity. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61hShwAPGPL.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BMad316:
In regards to the BF6024HD, how many rifles (AR's & SCAR's with either red dots or scopes) will realistically fit in this safe? Well, that depends a lot on the mounted accessories on your gun collection. The all-gun arrangement says 16 Guns in the racks (8 on each side), and one on the door, so 17 total. Realistically, take away 2 guns per rack unless you are stacking simple deer rifles and shotguns. The regular profile of an AR frame is a bit thick. You can definitely get a full load and better, but it takes some strategic gun orientation, tilts and staggering the barrels up and down to nest the gun features to get a more dense loading. For those that really want to pack as many long guns as possible, taking out the rack and using Barrel Rods hanging from the top shelf will allow a lot more capacity. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61hShwAPGPL.jpg Thank you, I was also looking at the BF6032 (realizing it's not as deep as the other safes, I really want this safe to fit in a reach in closet which is why I'm looking at the 6024 & 2032). I also have a question in regards to the group 2 lock, I had read there is a key option with those? Does this key override the combination? I'm asking to see if there is a way to get in the safe in a hurry without going through the combination. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 12:30:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMad316:
I also have a question in regards to the group 2 lock, I had read there is a key option with those? Does this key override the combination? I'm asking to see if there is a way to get in the safe in a hurry without going through the combination. The Key Lock they refer to is a Key Locking Dial, meaning that you can lock the dial so it won't turn. It does not open the safe. The combo lock can be dialed to an unlocked position, then rotate back to a locked condition without moving the wheels in the lock, and then the key-lock can be engaged. This is known as "Day-Locking". It's a very low security key lock, so I would not rely on it for anything but temporary locking while you are nearby the safe. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 12:31:53 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wallstrum:
can i talk you into signing my bf? PM Sent... |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/21/2016 11:11:31 AM EDT
[#42]
I have an awesome little BF3416 with the original s&g dial lock. I am looking at swapping it for the s&g Titan (digital) but not sure which one I need. Any feedback or info you can provide will be great.
I'm about 20 min from your HQ in Fontana if that is worth anything. btw anyone looking for a hard core small safe, this thing is out of hand. |
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Posted: 6/21/2016 2:23:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By confrontational:
I have an awesome little BF3416 with the original s&g dial lock. I am looking at swapping it for the s&g Titan (digital) but not sure which one I need. Any feedback or info you can provide will be great. The Titan Lock has never really caught on. Released in 2010, I don't think we have installed more than a dozen of these locks. There is no demand, which may or may not be an indicator. So, without any service history, I really can't offer any conclusive or meaningful comments. The "interesting" scissor-bolt design may have something to do with the popularity. Also, I think the lock footprint was much wider, and in some boltwork systems it doesn't fit. Most safe-makers keep the hard plate sizes to a minimum, so the Relock devices usually hug the lock very closely, hence preventing the install of a wider lock body. Maybe Frank can comment? |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/21/2016 3:49:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Can you recommend a more widely accepted digital lock? I'm always open to suggestions from the experts.
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Posted: 6/21/2016 10:00:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By confrontational:
Can you recommend a more widely accepted digital lock? I'm always open to suggestions from the experts. The best e-locks out there today by service failure rate are the LaGard 3600 and the AMSEC ESL10XL. The ESL10XL has the lowest service rate by a considerable margin. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/22/2016 1:06:16 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The best e-locks out there today by service failure rate are the LaGard 3600 and the AMSEC ESL10XL. The ESL10XL has the lowest service rate by a considerable margin. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By confrontational:
Can you recommend a more widely accepted digital lock? I'm always open to suggestions from the experts. The best e-locks out there today by service failure rate are the LaGard 3600 and the AMSEC ESL10XL. The ESL10XL has the lowest service rate by a considerable margin. Awesome. Are any modifications necessary to the safe to install the ESL10XL? If something happens and the lock fails, is there any kind of warranty (on the lock and/or the safe)? |
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Posted: 6/25/2016 1:46:19 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By confrontational:
Awesome. Are any modifications necessary to the safe to install the ESL10XL? If something happens and the lock fails, is there any kind of warranty (on the lock and/or the safe)? No mods necessary. Warranty is 1 year parts on a retrofit, 1 year parts and labor on a factory installed. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2016 5:09:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JKChan]
[#48]
Hello TheSafeGuy, can you give me some specs on this safe? Wall/door gauge, weight, etc. Seller does not have any info. THX
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Posted: 6/27/2016 12:28:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JKChan:
Hello TheSafeGuy, can you give me some specs on this safe? Wall/door gauge, weight, etc. Seller does not have any info. THX not sure why the pics show up as links. post preview shows as pics... That is an older safe second generation Gunsafe we called the Cascade series, as indicated it was made in 1999. That generation of safe has a single layer of drywall in the door pan, and another panel on the back of the door. Two layers inside the body. The door was 3/16 thick, and the body was 11 gauges steel. |
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Posted: 7/2/2016 3:15:10 PM EDT
[#50]
SafeGuy,
Many thanks to you and the other extremely knowledgeable, and willing, members here for the safe education I've been able to obtain through reading this entire thread. After quite a bit of research, and from what I've learned here, I've narrowed my safe choice to a BF6030 or BF6636, potentially with the HD liner. I plan to locate this safe in the basement and was hoping you could offer your opinion on weight based limitations for moving either safe down a full flight of straight stairs into a basement. Also, do you see the additional 200-300 lbs. for the HD option impacting the ability to make the trip down the steps? I'm planning for professional support to get this done but have read here that others have run into problems >1000 lbs. One last question, I live the Philadelphia, PA area and have noticed many of the listed dealers are locksmiths who also sell safes. The first shop I visited left me less than impressed and I was wondering if you could make a recommendation for a reputable dealer in my area. Thanks again |
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