Pulled the trigger..12 weeks...still no joy...

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pulled the trigger..12 weeks...still no joy...

Posted: 5/31/2013 7:32:45 AM EDT

Made a 2 hour not-so-local trip to a safe & locksmith place that seems to have a great local reputation and has been in business, in the same place, for a long time. They're not going anywhere anytime soon. I called them before I left home to make sure they'd deliver so far away.

When I got there Tom, the owner, spent a good hour reviewing their Heritage, Fort Knox, and AMSEC safes on the floor with me. He even showed me a Graffunder for kicks & giggles. I walked in gravitating towards AMSEC, and nothing Tom covered with me changed my opinion. The Ft Knox offerings were nice; but the AMSEC looked better, felt better, and had a fucking handle to open the door. I liked the BF6030 online; but it was really small in person. They had one BF6636 in sandstone on the floor. At 1300 lbs, it's a beast but biiiiggg....

At the end of the day, I wrote a check for a new BF6636. Black finish with black chrome hardware and a dial lock. Nothing fancy, just a BigFucking safe. 12-14 weeks wait according to Tom. The clockwatching begins....

Posted: 5/31/2013 7:47:03 AM EDT

[#1]

we expect pic upon delivery.

ETA: Damn I pulled the spec's on that Monster, I don't know what you paid but I see the asking price, very nice indeed.

Posted: 5/31/2013 9:38:14 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Made a 2 hour not-so-local trip to a safe & locksmith place that seems to have a great local reputation and has been in business, in the same place, for a long time. They're not going anywhere anytime soon. I called them before I left home to make sure they'd deliver so far away.

When I got there Tom, the owner, spent a good hour reviewing their Heritage, Fort Knox, and AMSEC safes on the floor with me. He even showed me a Graffunder for kicks & giggles. I walked in gravitating towards AMSEC, and nothing Tom covered with me changed my opinion. The Ft Knox offerings were nice; but the AMSEC looked better, felt better, and had a fucking handle to open the door. I liked the BF6030 online; but it was really small in person. They had one BF6636 in sandstone on the floor. At 1300 lbs, it's a beast but biiiiggg....

At the end of the day, I wrote a check for a new BF6636. Black finish with black chrome hardware and a dial lock. Nothing fancy, just a BigFucking safe. 12-14 weeks wait according to Tom. The clockwatching begins....

Excellent choice on that BF, you will love it. It is the only true plate/composite safe in the market. Sorry the lead times are so huge, but this gun control scare has lead times way out there.

Posted: 5/31/2013 12:32:45 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
we expect pic upon delivery.

ETA: Damn I pulled the spec's on that Monster, I don't know what you paid but I see the asking price, very nice indeed.

It's not a buyers market, and I knew that - I paid the going rate off MSRP. I might have been able to save a few hundred bucks by going online; but then I'd have to maybe find a mover/installer and coordinate that mess. I met the guys who will be doing the install when I bought the safe. They work for the owner; not sub-contracted out.

Quoted:

Excellent choice on that BF, you will love it. It is the only true plate/composite safe in the market. Sorry the lead times are so huge, but this gun control scare has lead times way out there.

Thanks! You apologize as though you work for AMSEC. If you do, don't rush my order. I need the time to make room (really clean-up) the basement! Just build it well when you get to it!

Posted: 5/31/2013 2:22:36 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Thanks! You apologize as though you work for AMSEC. If you do, don't rush my order. I need the time to make room (really clean-up) the basement! Just build it well when you get to it!

Yea, I work for AMSEC. I'm the VP of Engineering, been there 25 years. I designed the BF safe line back in 1994. It's still the only genuine fire rated burglary safe in the class.

Posted: 5/31/2013 3:00:54 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thanks! You apologize as though you work for AMSEC. If you do, don't rush my order. I need the time to make room (really clean-up) the basement! Just build it well when you get to it!

Yea, I work for AMSEC. I'm the VP of Engineering, been there 25 years. I designed the BF safe line back in 1994. It's still the only genuine fire rated burglary safe in the class.

Well, this answers my other question in a different thread, if you work for AMSEC, double welcome. So, I hope you like to talk about safe construction!

Posted: 5/31/2013 3:19:39 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Well, this answers my other question in a different thread, if you work for AMSEC, double welcome. So, I hope you like to talk about safe construction!

Sure, glad to help. Bring it.....

Posted: 5/31/2013 3:20:21 PM EDT

[#7]

Hey Safe Guy,
I have some questions for you.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the Amsec poured casting (like what's in the BF6030) vs. Sturdy Safes ceramic wool blanket....

I'm not asking you to sell me an Amsec or disparage the Sturdy brand... I'm just looking for pure engineering insight into the different characteristics of these two insulation techniques.
I have lots of experience with the ceramic stuff in building industrial ovens but my experience with refractories is limited to only a few projects. Would the Amsec casting even be classified as a refractory?

Is there a moisture release with the Amsec casting during a fire? Or is it purely an insulator?
Is there any structural advantages?

Thanks,

Posted: 5/31/2013 4:31:09 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Hey Safe Guy,
I have some questions for you.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the Amsec poured casting (like what's in the BF6030) vs. Sturdy Safes ceramic wool blanket....

I'm not asking you to sell me an Amsec or disparage the Sturdy brand... I'm just looking for pure engineering insight into the different characteristics of these two insulation techniques.
I have lots of experience with the ceramic stuff in building industrial ovens but my experience with refractories is limited to only a few projects. Would the Amsec casting even be classified as a refractory?

Is there a moisture release with the Amsec casting during a fire? Or is it purely an insulator?
Is there any structural advantages?

Thanks,

View Quote

Okay, first thing I will say is that I will not intentionally disparage any competitors, but I will gladly share the facts. They may favor our products, they may not.

The first thing everyone needs to understand about fire resistant products is, simple insulation is not going to protect your valuables, period. Insulators like rock-wool, fiber panels, wall insulation or urethane/Styrofoam expandables are only going to protect the contents for a very short time. Firesafes, or Gunsafes, with reasonable fire resistance will have insulation materials with the property of Hygroscopy, which is the affinity to capture and/or hold water.

Fire resistant containers can not be protected for any significant period with simple dry insulation. Simple insulators delay the internal temperature rise, but can't control or moderate the energy influx.

Firesafe 101....

The technique we employ to protect safes for long periods (more than a few minutes) is steam generation to moderate the internal safe temperature. There are three phenomena in play in this approach. First , the energy that is absorbed by the safe enters the insulation by conduction, and when the temperature reaches a threshold ,the stored water is released as steam. This conversion of water to vapor is what is known as a phase-change. A phase change in any material requires the addition of massive amounts of energy. So, the phase change consumes energy (heat), such that it is "diverted" and doesn't continue to conduct thru the material. Second, the steam released has the unique property of holding at the boiling point of water (if it is not restrained in a pressure container). So, once you start releasing steam, we channel that steam to the interior of the safe, which moderated the internal temperature to a range a little above 212ºF. Until the water is completely exhausted in the insulation material, this steam barrier persists. Third, the released steam is expanding at an extraordinary rate. That expansion creates a positive pressure, which vents out of the safe anywhere there is a breach in the door seals of safe construction. The vigorous exit of steam prevents hot gasses from entering the safe.

So, with that, you can see that moisture is an essential part of fire resistance. Although we have not tested dry insulation in controlled conditions (it's not worth the trouble), we know that a safe with, say a 2-inch thick wall of ANY dry insulator will probably exceed destructive internal temperatures in under 10 minutes when exposed to a moderate 1200ºF fire. The differences in most all insulators is trivial. The R Value of all of these various dry materials are in a small range. The only way to make a dry insulation work better is to make it thicker.

Given that, let me answer the questions now. First, the comparison of the wool versus a Hygroscopic material should be clear now, given the above technical facts. Frankly, there is no comparison when you scale fire resistance on the order of 30 minutes to a few hours.

" Would the Amsec casting even be classified as a refractory? "

No. The fill materials we use vary, depending on the product. In any of these cases, the material has a basic common ingredient... cement. Cement is a highly Hygroscopic material, and acts as a binder to suspend and hold other materials, depending on the goals. So, in every case, we have a proprietary formula that uses a few other materials like Vermiculite, Perlite, Diatomaceous Earth, Foaming agents and a few other magic ingredients. The "casting" results in a material that can be very soft, to extremely strong (14,000-16,000 psi compression strength).

"Is there a moisture release with the Amsec casting during a fire? Or is it purely an insulator? "

Yes, steam release is essential to fire endurance as noted in the Firesafe 101 tech notes. Most manufacturers of Gunsafes use Gypsum Board (Drywall) as an insulator. Again, an extremely Hygroscopic, which releases substantial steam volumes when heated. The thing that sets AMSEC apart with the BF line is that we offer safe models that employ "cast Hygroscopic" insulators that perform much better than drywall panels. To my knowledge, none of our competitors have developed this technology. AMSEC has been a firesafe manufacturer for more than 50 years, and we produce true fire safes with genuine fire classifications from Underwriters Labs. Simply put, our broader manufacturing expertise provides a better solution to the gun safe industry.

"Is there any structural advantages? "

In the case of our BF gunsafe line, the structural value of the insulation is minimal. It is designed to be a premium fire resistant material, as opposed to a penetration barrier.

I hope that doesn't sound like a selling job, but to explain the different technologies requires some differentiation to appreciate the different design approaches. Most of the Gunsafe manufacturers use drywall, and probably don't even know why....

Posted: 5/31/2013 5:32:35 PM EDT

[#9]

That was a very well written explanation.

I am a process engineer myself.. While I do design ovens and various other things involving thermal considerations, I have never had to deal with the issues you do in the design of a safe.

One thing that stands out to me that I never realized is that your casting is never cured. I made a statement in another thread that a casting could never have the thermal insulation performance of a blanket type fiber. I've made some forms and castings in my time and we have to cure them slowly at around 250 to 300 degreesF so that the water doesn't vaporize too quickly and blow the refractory apart. It never occurred to me that you'd leave it uncured and let a real fire event do the curing for you.

Thank you very much for taking your time to write that out. Your explanation was not only well written, it made perfect sense and I can extrapolate the rest for myself.

Posted: 5/31/2013 5:59:20 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thanks! You apologize as though you work for AMSEC. If you do, don't rush my order. I need the time to make room (really clean-up) the basement! Just build it well when you get to it!

Yea, I work for AMSEC. I'm the VP of Engineering, been there 25 years. I designed the BF safe line back in 1994. It's still the only genuine fire rated burglary safe in the class.

Wow - Imagine that - I'm buying your design! Gotta make you feel pretty good. I mentioned it in my OP, but thanks again for putting a handle on the door. I have no idea why other mfrs. haven't followed suit.

Posted: 5/31/2013 6:07:19 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Hey Safe Guy,
I have some questions for you.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the Amsec poured casting (like what's in the BF6030) vs. Sturdy Safes ceramic wool blanket....

I'm not asking you to sell me an Amsec or disparage the Sturdy brand... I'm just looking for pure engineering insight into the different characteristics of these two insulation techniques.
I have lots of experience with the ceramic stuff in building industrial ovens but my experience with refractories is limited to only a few projects. Would the Amsec casting even be classified as a refractory?

Is there a moisture release with the Amsec casting during a fire? Or is it purely an insulator?
Is there any structural advantages?

Thanks,

Okay, first thing I will say is that I will not intentionally disparage any competitors, but I will gladly share the facts. They may favor our products, they may not.

The first thing everyone needs to understand about fire resistant products is, simple insulation is not going to protect your valuables, period. Insulators like rock-wool, fiber panels, wall insulation or urethane/Styrofoam expandables are only going to protect the contents for a very short time. Firesafes, or Gunsafes, with reasonable fire resistance will have insulation materials with the property of Hygroscopy, which is the affinity to capture and/or hold water.

Fire resistant containers can not be protected for any significant period with simple dry insulation. Simple insulators delay the internal temperature rise, but can't control or moderate the energy influx.

Firesafe 101....

The technique we employ to protect safes for long periods (more than a few minutes) is steam generation to moderate the internal safe temperature. There are three phenomena in play in this approach. First , the energy that is absorbed by the safe enters the insulation by conduction, and when the temperature reaches a threshold ,the stored water is released as steam. This conversion of water to vapor is what is known as a phase-change. A phase change in any material requires the addition of massive amounts of energy. So, the phase change consumes energy (heat), such that it is "diverted" and doesn't continue to conduct thru the material. Second, the steam released has the unique property of holding at the boiling point of water (if it is not restrained in a pressure container). So, once you start releasing steam, we channel that steam to the interior of the safe, which moderated the internal temperature to a range a little above 212ºF. Until the water is completely exhausted in the insulation material, this steam barrier persists. Third, the released steam is expanding at an extraordinary rate. That expansion creates a positive pressure, which vents out of the safe anywhere there is a breach in the door seals of safe construction. The vigorous exit of steam prevents hot gasses from entering the safe.

So, with that, you can see that moisture is an essential part of fire resistance. Although we have not tested dry insulation in controlled conditions (it's not worth the trouble), we know that a safe with, say a 2-inch thick wall of ANY dry insulator will probably exceed destructive internal temperatures in under 10 minutes when exposed to a moderate 1200ºF fire. The differences in most all insulators is trivial. The R Value of all of these various dry materials are in a small range. The only way to make a dry insulation work better is to make it thicker.

Given that, let me answer the questions now. First, the comparison of the wool versus a Hygroscopic material should be clear now, given the above technical facts. Frankly, there is no comparison when you scale fire resistance on the order of 30 minutes to a few hours.

" Would the Amsec casting even be classified as a refractory? "

No. The fill materials we use vary, depending on the product. In any of these cases, the material has a basic common ingredient... cement. Cement is a highly Hygroscopic material, and acts as a binder to suspend and hold other materials, depending on the goals. So, in every case, we have a proprietary formula that uses a few other materials like Vermiculite, Perlite, Diatomaceous Earth, Foaming agents and a few other magic ingredients. The "casting" results in a material that can be very soft, to extremely strong (14,000-16,000 psi compression strength).

"Is there a moisture release with the Amsec casting during a fire? Or is it purely an insulator? "

Yes, steam release is essential to fire endurance as noted in the Firesafe 101 tech notes. Most manufacturers of Gunsafes use Gypsum Board (Drywall) as an insulator. Again, an extremely Hygroscopic, which releases substantial steam volumes when heated. The thing that sets AMSEC apart with the BF line is that we offer safe models that employ "cast Hygroscopic" insulators that perform much better than drywall panels. To my knowledge, none of our competitors have developed this technology. AMSEC has been a firesafe manufacturer for more than 50 years, and we produce true fire safes with genuine fire classifications from Underwriters Labs. Simply put, our broader manufacturing expertise provides a better solution to the gun safe industry.

"Is there any structural advantages? "

In the case of our BF gunsafe line, the structural value of the insulation is minimal. It is designed to be a premium fire resistant material, as opposed to a penetration barrier.

I hope that doesn't sound like a selling job, but to explain the different technologies requires some differentiation to appreciate the different design approaches. Most of the Gunsafe manufacturers use drywall, and probably don't even know why....

Thats some good info. In AMSECs development, did you guys try any other materials? You mentioned that you never tested fire board which some of the other major names like Ft. Knox use?

Posted: 5/31/2013 6:28:18 PM EDT

[#12]

The Safeguy, welcome to the forum. I am really interested to hear your thoughts as an engineer in the industry.

Please don't take my questions as an attack because they are not but I have been debating the subject of fire protection within gun safes for a while now so they may seem that way. BTW, I don't work in the industry at all and have no connection whatsoever to anyone in the industry.

My concerns with the use of water / steam as a means of retarding temperature rise within a gun safe is that the steam itself can be every bit as destructive to the collectable value of a firearm as the fire. From previous discussions on the subject, the AMSEC RF series appears to be designed to release steam into the chamber of the safe as a means of fire protection, does the HS series and BF do that as well? Have your studies shown that this is not an issue?

Posted: 5/31/2013 6:36:00 PM EDT

[#13]

Safe Guy-

What is the best way to protect firearms within a safe from rust post-fire? I have read several posts about this issue, and it is quite discouraging to know that firearms within a safe will probably not be usable after a fire. Many people say that the contents must be salvaged quickly to prevent rust, but this is often not feasible.

Posted: 5/31/2013 6:51:32 PM EDT

[#14]

Safe guy, why the blue text?

Posted: 5/31/2013 8:08:49 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Safe Guy-
What is the best way to protect firearms within a safe from rust post-fire? I have read several posts about this issue, and it is quite discouraging to know that firearms within a safe will probably not be usable after a fire. Many people say that the contents must be salvaged quickly to prevent rust, but this is often not feasible.

I have been in this business since the first true rifle safes were born back in 1992. This question has come up more times that i can count, and I have see the post fire carnage too many times. To date, I have never heard of a good fix after the fact. Truth be known, the best fix is to store them in a sealed sock-like bag. It would be a serious pain in the ass to use, but in that rare case where the fire comes your way, it would be a life saver. Wish I could answer you with a good recommendation. The only answer after a fire is to get those guns out as soon as you can. The steam and high temperatures are doubly nasty on steel.

I have all my guns in Gun Socks in my safe. The other thing I personally do is spray the crap out of the blued guns with Rem Oil before I slip them into their nigh-night socks. That will probably make a difference. Not a good solution if looking at your collection is part of what thrills you.

Posted: 5/31/2013 8:10:16 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Safe guy, why the blue text?

Sorry, the small black text on this color background is really hard to read.

Posted: 5/31/2013 8:26:22 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Thats some good info. In AMSECs development, did you guys try any other materials? You mentioned that you never tested fire board which some of the other major names like Ft. Knox use?

Sorry, I was not clear. I meant to be specific about "dry" boards, meaning like those compressed fiber panels. We have tested "Fire-Board" many many times, That is what we call Gypsum Board or Drywall. It does indeed provide a reasonably good fire barrier. We have two existing safe lines that still use drywall. This has been the most common fire barrier since the first fire-lined safes came out in the mid-90's.

We did have a rock-wool lined safe in our lineup many years ago. We saw way too many safes of this type that didn't fare well in fires, so we killed the line for better offerings.The material has great spec's, and it impressed cistomners to say the material will go 2200ºF, but that is a misleading way to sell.

Drywall lines safes are not bad safes. When testing fire-gun safes you quickly find the Calcination of the material causes it to fail structurally, mostly in the corners and edges. The overlap of the panels in the edges and corners is a critical area, and always the point of first failure. The drywall literally starts to crumble after extended exposure. That's one primary reason that the "cast" or "poured" insulation in the BF safe is superior. There are no joints to fail, AND, the proprietary fill mix design is tuned to remain structurally sound even after complete Calcination.

Posted: 5/31/2013 8:51:13 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
The Safeguy, welcome to the forum. I am really interested to hear your thoughts as an engineer in the industry.

Please don't take my questions as an attack because they are not but I have been debating the subject of fire protection within gun safes for a while now so they may seem that way. BTW, I don't work in the industry at all and have no connection whatsoever to anyone in the industry.

My concerns with the use of water / steam as a means of retarding temperature rise within a gun safe is that the steam itself can be every bit as destructive to the collectable value of a firearm as the fire. From previous discussions on the subject, the AMSEC RF series appears to be designed to release steam into the chamber of the safe as a means of fire protection, does the HS series and BF do that as well? Have your studies shown that this is not an issue?

View Quote

Glad to address that Rocko. Okay, here is the real deal. Pure and simple thermodynamics. As you expose a body to a temperature differential, the body will seek to equalize with the environment. A dry insulation wall is only a delay device, and not nearly as effective as you might think. Without some dynamic protection mechanism, we will never have an affordable means of limiting internal temperatures for long periods. There are other ways to do this, but they come at extraordinary costs. The market will not bear such a high cost. Us gun guys are all the same, we would rather spend that precious greenback on ammo or another toy.

So, to address the question directly... that's just the way it is. We have an inexpensive technique to limit temperature levels, but at the price of moisture saturation of the contents. I'm not going to lie, that is what we have.

Extreme insulators from exotic aerospace materials like Shuttle Tiles or AeroGel are just way to expensive, on the order of thousands of $$ per square foot. Another approach is to place a secondary internal container that is sealed, like a air-tight cabinet inside a firesafe. Again, the cost of a secondary internal container is prohibitive. If you look at real UL Listed Class 150 and Class 125 "Data Safes", they all use an inner box to achieve the lower limits. The other thing we do is use bees wax. The inner box can be made as a double-walled box, like a cooler, and the walls filled with wax. The pure bee's wax is like ice-water, but has a melting point of exactly 124ºF. As long as there is a solid and a liquid present, the temperature is stable during the phase change (melting). Same as your glass of ice-water, the temp is always 32º until all the ice has converted to liquid as it absorbs energy.

Posted: 5/31/2013 9:00:40 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Safe Guy-

What is the best way to protect firearms within a safe from rust post-fire? I have read several posts about this issue, and it is quite discouraging to know that firearms within a safe will probably not be usable after a fire. Many people say that the contents must be salvaged quickly to prevent rust, but this is often not feasible.

I have been in this business since the first true rifle safes were born back in 1992. This question has come up more times that i can count, and I have see the post fire carnage too many times. To date, I have never heard of a good fix after the fact. Truth be known, the best fix is to store them in a sealed sock-like bag. It would be a serious pain in the ass to use, but in that rare case where the fire comes your way, it would be a life saver. Wish I could answer you with a good recommendation. The only answer after a fire is to get those guns out as soon as you can. The steam and high temperatures are doubly nasty on steel.

I have all my guns in Gun Socks in my safe. The other thing I personally do is spray the crap out of the blued guns with Rem Oil before I slip them into their nigh-night socks. That will probably make a difference. Not a good solution if looking at your collection is part of what thrills you.

Thank you for responding to my question! I hope you stick around.

I was actually discussing this issue w/ a friend earlier today and told him that I think the best real-world solution would be to use a sealed safe (not paulosol, but an actual fit seal that doesn't need heat to make it close off the gap) inside of a fire resistant room like a vault or "safe room" or disaster shelter. What do you think of this idea (assuming building such a room is possible for the individual), specifically in regard to protecting the safe contents from fire damage?

Posted: 5/31/2013 9:10:33 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Thank you for responding to my question! I hope you stick around.

I was actually discussing this issue w/ a friend earlier today and told him that I think the best real-world solution would be to use a sealed safe (not paulosol, but an actual fit seal that doesn't need heat to make it close off the gap) inside of a fire resistant room like a vault or "safe room" or disaster shelter. What do you think of this idea (assuming building such a room is possible for the individual), specifically in regard to protecting the safe contents from fire damage?

Back up one post, I answered that idea already. You are on the right track. A sealed inner box with a door would be an excellent solution.

Now, who will spend the extra $800 to have that?

The reality is that if the market can't generate enough sales to support a product, it won't happen. Your concerns are not widely understood, so for now this is not going to be high on anyone's development plans.You can bet that when the market is ready, AMSEC will be the leader with a product offering...

Posted: 5/31/2013 10:30:00 PM EDT

[#21]

Great choice and well worth the wait 94TBlazer! I have a BF6636 (Glossy Hunter Green w/ black nickel for the wife/ MECH LOCK ) and couldn't be happier except I need another one.

B2

Welcome TheSafeGuy!

Very cool to have you here/thanks for sharing some "insider" facts and real knowledge.

Any thoughts on storing papers, jewelry and other valuables in a RSC/"gun safe"? I know the ideal answer is to have a multiple layers to include a separate dedicated jewelry-type safe but the reality is most folks won't or can't afford the ideal options and store a lot of stuff in our RSCs. Even as good as the BF-series is, they aren't designed to protect all and there have been plenty of "discussions" here.

Yeah, something is better than nothing but wonder what you've learned?

ETA: TheSafeGuy -- PLEASE stay for a bit, ignore the impending idjits and I think you'll find the tech forums here OK; can't vouch for GD... You'll likely be answering many questions!

Took me a long time; haven't regretted buying a BF 6636 ever!

Posted: 6/1/2013 2:06:08 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The Safeguy, welcome to the forum. I am really interested to hear your thoughts as an engineer in the industry.

Please don't take my questions as an attack because they are not but I have been debating the subject of fire protection within gun safes for a while now so they may seem that way. BTW, I don't work in the industry at all and have no connection whatsoever to anyone in the industry.

My concerns with the use of water / steam as a means of retarding temperature rise within a gun safe is that the steam itself can be every bit as destructive to the collectable value of a firearm as the fire. From previous discussions on the subject, the AMSEC RF series appears to be designed to release steam into the chamber of the safe as a means of fire protection, does the HS series and BF do that as well? Have your studies shown that this is not an issue?

Glad to address that Rocko. Okay, here is the real deal. Pure and simple thermodynamics. As you expose a body to a temperature differential, the body will seek to equalize with the environment. A dry insulation wall is only a delay device, and not nearly as effective as you might think. Without some dynamic protection mechanism, we will never have an affordable means of limiting internal temperatures for long periods. There are other ways to do this, but they are come at extraordinary costs. The market will not bear such a high cost. Us gun guys are all the same, we would rather spend that precious greenback on ammo or another toy.

So, to address the question directly... that's just the way it is. We have an inexpensive technique to limit temperature levels, but at the price of moisture saturation of the contents. I'm not going to lie, that is what we have.

Extreme insulators from exotic aerospace materials like Shuttle Tiles or AeroGel are just way to expensive, on the order of thousands of $$ per square foot. Another approach is to place a secondary internal container that is sealed, like a air-tight cabinet inside a firesafe. Again, the cost of a secondary internal container is prohibitive. If you look at real UL Listed Class 150 and Class 125 "Data Safes", they all use an inner box to achieve the lower limits. The other thing we do is use bees wax. The inner box can be made from a double-walled box, like a cooler, and the walls filled with wax. The wax is like ice-water, but has a melting point of exactly 124ºF. As long as there is a solid and a liquid present, the temperature is stable during the phase change (melting). Same as your glass of ice-water, the temp is always 32º until all the ice has converted to liquid as it absorbs energy.

Awesome response, thanks Safe Guy! So beeswax melts at 124F ... cool stuff!

Posted: 6/1/2013 4:45:13 AM EDT

[#23]

Safe guy, thanks for taking the time to share with us!

Welcome aboard.

Posted: 6/1/2013 7:15:42 AM EDT

[#24]

Any thoughts on storing papers, jewelry and other valuables in a RSC/"gun safe"? I know the ideal answer is to have a multiple layers to include a separate dedicated jewelry-type safe but the reality is most folks won't or can't afford the ideal options and store a lot of stuff in our RSCs. Even as good as the BF-series is, they aren't designed to protect all and there have been plenty of "discussions" here.

Yeah, something is better than nothing but wonder what you've learned?

Any container that can survive in boiling water has a reasonably good shot at surviving the rigors of living inside a safe under fire exposure. Tupperware, or other microwave-safe containers are great for storing valuables, and larger ones for documents. Even zip-loc bags are better than nothing. They may get warped or distorted, but as long as the seal is maintained, the water/steam can't do the damage.

There are very distinct hot and cold spots in the burning safe, so consider the location of delicate items. The bottom of the safe is a wet mess, but the floor is MUCH cooler that at the ceiling. The temperature gradient can be as much as 100º. The areas near the jambs is a hot zone, particularly at the top corners of the door. Remember, there are three type of heat transfer, and they all contribute significantly, but are frequently ignored. Those are conduction, convection and radiation. The Radiation is the one people tend to overlook. So, when we bake a safe, all that outer steel gets hot, right? So, by conduction, the hot steel carried the heat thru the jamb areas around the door, That steel is all one piece in most safe designs, so the jamb flanges on the inside get damn hot after a little while. Those hot jambs then act as infra-red radiators inside the safe. the heat also comes off the jambs by convection. Hence, the rising heat collects at the ceiling, and the radiant heat impinges on anything the jambs can "see". With that understanding, you can now see how you might arrange valuables and dedicates. The bottom center is the best spot, but also the wettest spot. Seal your dedicates in an air-tight container that can take temperatures up to say 300º and that stuff will fare well.

There was a key point that we hit in that last paragraph. The conduction of energy thru the jambs, into the safe interior, big problem. So, the best designs (for fire) use minimal metal thickness in the area to minimize heat conduction. Heavy metals are not your friend when it comes to fire resistance. If you study real fire safes, like the AMSEC UL-Line of 2-hour class 350 safes, you will notice that the jambs are made of very light metal (18 gauge). The uneducated eye sees weakness. The educated eye sees brilliance in several ways.

Posted: 6/1/2013 7:33:22 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Any thoughts on storing papers, jewelry and other valuables in a RSC/"gun safe"? I know the ideal answer is to have a multiple layers to include a separate dedicated jewelry-type safe but the reality is most folks won't or can't afford the ideal options and store a lot of stuff in our RSCs. Even as good as the BF-series is, they aren't designed to protect all and there have been plenty of "discussions" here.

Yeah, something is better than nothing but wonder what you've learned?

Any container that can survive in boiling water has a reasonably good shot at surviving the rigors of living inside a safe under fire exposure. Tupperware, or other microwave-safe containers are great for storing valuables, and larger ones for documents. Even zip-loc bags are better than nothing. They may get warped or distorted, but as long as the seal is maintained, the water/steam can't do the damage.

There are very distinct hot and cold spots in the burning safe, so consider the location of delicate items. The bottom of the safe is a wet mess, but the floor is MUCH cooler that at the ceiling. The temperature gradient can be as much as 100º. The areas near the jambs is a hot zone, particularly at the top corners of the door. Remember, there are three type of heat transfer, and they all contribute significantly, but are frequently ignored. Those are conduction, convection and radiation. The Radiation is the one people tend to overlook. So, when we bake a safe, all that outer steel gets hot, right? So, by conduction, the hot steel carried the heat thru the jamb areas around the door, That steel is all one piece in most safe designs, so the jamb flanges on the inside get damn hot after a little while. Those hot jambs then act as infra-red radiators inside the safe. the heat also comes off the jambs by convection. Hence, the rising heat collects at the ceiling, and the radiant heat impinges on anything the jambs can "see". With that understanding, you can now see how you might arrange valuables and dedicates. The bottom center is the best spot, but also the wettest spot. Seal your dedicates in an air-tight container that can take temperatures up to say 300º and that stuff will fare well.

There was a key point that we hit in that last paragraph. The conduction of energy thru the jambs, into the safe interior, big problem. So, the best designs (for fire) use minimal metal thickness in the area to minimize heat conduction. Heavy metals are not your friend when it comes to fire resistance. If you study real fire safes, like the AMSEC UL-Line of 2-hour class 350 safes, you will notice that the jambs are made of very light metal (18 gauge). The uneducated eye sees weakness. The educated eye sees brilliance in several ways.

Fascinating stuff, thank you again.

Posted: 6/1/2013 7:53:28 AM EDT

[#26]

One other thing you don't want to hear.

Do you know how crazy it is to put all those precious items in your safe, then stack ammo all around it?

That is like pouring gas on a fire. If you do have a fire that persists for a long time, the inside temperatures will eventually rise as the steam barrier fades. At some point that ammo becomes the fire inside, and not a pretty one. Store your ammo somewhere else. Sure, keep a few loaded mags or your grab and go bag in there. But there is no good reason to keep stacks of gun powder in your safe. That's a material that needs to be treated like a flammable and stored accordingly.

Posted: 6/1/2013 8:13:16 AM EDT

[#27]

Awesome thread. Welcome to arfcom safe guy. So much great info. I hope you stick around.

Posted: 6/1/2013 8:42:49 AM EDT

[#28]

Great info here!!! I never thought about storing things in microwave safe containers. Water proof right there, very nice. That was one of my main concerns actually.

Thanks fro taking the time to share all the info!

Posted: 6/1/2013 8:44:35 PM EDT

[#29]

Can you tell us about the fire resistance of a TRTL 30x6 or TRTL 60x6 safe? I believe these are mostly cast bodies, which are fairly thick and would take a while to heat up, but do they usually exhibit the hydrophillic tendencies to make them good materials to absorb heat during a fire, or would you have to design a separate system inside the shell to deal with heat? In short, do you have to choose between security and fire resistance at some point?

Thanks.

Posted: 6/1/2013 9:47:04 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Can you tell us about the fire resistance of a TRTL 30x6 or TRTL 60x6 safe? I believe these are mostly cast bodies, which are fairly thick and would take a while to heat up, but do they usually exhibit the hydrophillic tendencies to make them good materials to absorb heat during a fire, or would you have to design a separate system inside the shell to deal with heat? In short, do you have to choose between security and fire resistance at some point?

Thanks.

There are several different types of body/door designs with TRTL safes (we call then TURTLEs). The most popular uses a cast aluminum body with ceramic or aluminum oxide nuggets dispersed in the casting. TRTL safes are all about torch. The concerns for tool resistance are almost forgotten in a torch resistance safe test. The torch attack is just hat brutal. I have never seen any fire test data on that type of safe, but it stands to reason that 1) there is no steam bearing insulation, and 2) aluminum is an incredible conductor of heat. So, that tells me that a TURTLE is probably not a very good firesafe. It's probably (educated guess) okay for maybe a 1/2 hr test, but at some point the big aluminum block will have absorbed enough energy the the average temperature exceeds reasonable limits. Alternate designs still use mostly Aluminum with a concrete cladding shell. Although, those shells are not very thick, they would probably be a little better, but only if there is an intentional path for steam to release inside the safe (read unlikely)...

In short, do you have to choose between security and fire resistance at some point?

Yes. It's unfortunate, but we have to do a risk assessment, and decide where our priorities lie. Are you more concerned with fire risk or a "professional" burglary. Frankly, I don't see the logic of wanting a TURTLE for firearms storage. The cost is extraordinary, and the chances of a torch attack on your safe in your home is really very very small. Besides that, TL30X6 safes offer reasonably good torch resistance. The UL Torch rating is WAY beyond the kind of torch attack that happens in the real world. This is another unrealistic standard, were the testing does not represent practical and reasonable torch attacks. This is a hugely over-dramatic attack with a test method that has probably NEVER happened anywhere, ever.

If it makes you feel better, the reality of fire exposure in statistical terms is much lower than you think. Most fires are controlled or mostly extinguished within 20 minutes of reporting in an urban environment. In rural areas, not so good. So, the risk assessment depends on the fire response time you can expect where you live. Another fire fact is that most fires don't exceed 1200ºF, and that is generally at 4-6 feet from the floor. Also, the location in the home has an impact. Is the location near common ignition points? Are there flammables or accelerators present? Is the structure in the safe install area mostly wood, stucco, drywall, concrete block, etc. The flammability of the surroundings is a factor.

Bottom line, I have seen the aftermath of a lot of fires and burglary attacks. In most of the burglary attacks, the methods were crude at best. In most of the fires, the safe's dial and handle are intact. The dials or keypads for most safe locks are made from zinc die-castings (Zamak 3 technically), melting point is 715-735ºF. In the lions share of home fires, if the safe was exposed to fire directly, in most cases the dial and handle are still present. That tells you a lot about the severity of the exposure. So, don't buy those pictures of burnt safes where the door hardware is still present. that fire exposure was trivial at best. That represents probably more than 90% of the real fire damages safes.

Again, risk assessment. What is the crime rate, and the incidence of safe attacks in your area. Ask a cop. Call the local PD or Sheriff. If it's not on the radar, the risk is small. Do a lot of people know you have a lot of valuables in your home? Are there people in your home occasionally that see your firearms wealth? Do you keep a very low profile, and most people you know would be surprised to find out you have an arsenal of expensive weapons, optics and valuables??

Be practical. Ask yourself all these questions, grade your needs, and balance you solution on the risk you feel is realistic. While you are doing that, consider the idea of several safes vs one badass high-security beast. You can buy at least four GOOD gunsafes for the cost of a Turtle. Line them up a couple in the garage, one show safe in the family room, another plain one in the closet in your bedroom. Whatever you do, how long is it going to take for the bad guys to open all of those safes. Distribute your valuables where it makes sense. If you do have a fire, what are the chances all of these safes get toasted? Seems like a much better solution to me....

Posted: 6/2/2013 12:02:07 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

...

... The uneducated eye sees weakness. The educated eye sees brilliance in several ways.

Way too much experience and "reality" in those words!

Thanks again for being here and answering many long-standing questions with facts and experience vs. emotions. Also, I totally agree about ammo, powder, etc. and always thought that had the potential to become a bomb, especially in quantities many of us hold. My powder "breathes" in OEM containers, my primers are stored separately in wooden crates, and most ammo is shelved with nothing in a tightly sealed container.

B2

Thanks also for refreshing my Thermo-G**-Damnics memories/lessons lost from nearly thirty years ago... Log back in; you'll like the interface mucho better!

Posted: 6/2/2013 3:47:16 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

...

... The uneducated eye sees weakness. The educated eye sees brilliance in several ways.

Way too much experience and "reality" in those words!

Thanks again for being here and answering many long-standing questions with facts and experience vs. emotions. Also, I totally agree about ammo, powder, etc. and always thought that had the potential to become a bomb, especially in quantities many of us hold. My powder "breathes" in OEM containers, my primers are stored separately in wooden crates, and most ammo is shelved with nothing in a tightly sealed container.

B2

Thanks also for refreshing my Thermo-G**-Damnics memories/lessons lost from nearly thirty years ago... Log back in; you'll like the interface mucho better!

Arfcom always delivers, good on you babirl.

Posted: 6/2/2013 4:27:40 AM EDT

[#33]

Do they use a thermal lance for the tr part of the testing?

If you were to build a concrete vault in a basement, say 10 x 10 feet with a 6" thick concrete roof, would that protect a non fire safe from heat inside during a complete burn down?

I would think that an attack with a plasma torch would not be that uncommon these days, as they are pretty widely available and inexpensive. Maybe most burglars don't have the kind of foresight for that.

Thanks again

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 6/2/2013 5:11:47 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Do they use a thermal lance for the tr part of the testing?

None of the current UL standards use the thermal lance. It's probably not going to ever happen, since there is no known method to stop that toy. They won't let us encase explosives, so it's a hard one to beat.

If you were to build a concrete vault in a basement, say 10 x 10 feet with a 6" thick concrete roof, would that protect a non fire safe from heat inside during a complete burn down?

That would be a damn good fire resistant vault. I'd say yes, without much doubt. That's an opinion, not backed by any empirical data.

Posted: 6/21/2013 4:24:20 PM EDT

[#35]

Three weeks of waiting down. 9 to 11 more to go....fawk me....

Posted: 6/21/2013 5:11:06 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Three weeks of waiting down. 9 to 11 more to go....fawk me....

Crap, I saw the update and was hoping to hear about your new AMSEC!

Posted: 7/22/2013 4:37:26 PM EDT

[#37]

7 weeks down....I had to look at my receipt to remember what the hell I ordered....another month or two to go....

Posted: 7/22/2013 4:50:06 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
7 weeks down....I had to look at my receipt to remember what the hell I ordered....another month or two to go....

View Quote

Again, I saw the update and was hoping to hear about your new AMSEC!

Posted: 7/22/2013 4:53:42 PM EDT

[#39]

Sorry...I'll change the title when it happens...if....

Posted: 7/22/2013 5:11:30 PM EDT

[#40]

Tag for pictures.

Posted: 7/22/2013 5:14:24 PM EDT

[#41]

94TBlazer..You will be very happy with your BF66X36.
I own that very gun safe in Sandstone with gold trim along with the standard dial lock.
I bought(ordered) mine in October 2009 and it was delivered and installed in early November of that year.
Zero regrets!!!

Posted: 8/6/2013 8:35:23 PM EDT

[#42]

....

Posted: 8/14/2013 2:38:01 PM EDT

[#43]

11 weeks now. Got a voice mail today.

Telemarketer....damn....

ETA: Basement is cleaned up & organized. I even whitewashed the wall where it'll go. I'm ready. Bring it.

Posted: 8/14/2013 8:56:20 PM EDT

[#44]

Please post lots of detailed pics when you get it installed. I was leaning towards liberty but amsec is now at the top of the list.

Posted: 8/15/2013 4:53:42 AM EDT

[#45]

Where I'm at right now my advice is buy whatever you don't have to wait three months to get....

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pulled the trigger..12 weeks...still no joy...

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