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christof
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Posted: 12/7/2010 7:47:04 PM
I have been doing some research and deciding what my needs are and I have decided to either get a fire-lined Sturdy or an American Security BF series gun safe

The Amsec BF is alot shinier and visually impressive, and the Sturdy safe seems to be the high quality workhorse that isnt pretty but gets the job done very well. only. They have a good reputation around here but im not ready to hop on the Sturdy bandwagon just yet. Also if somone can speak on the "Clutches and shear pins" argument they claim is co important that would be great

The two safes have similar prices for the models I am looking at yet the Amsec has so much more interior and exterior finish, it makes me wonder if Amsec cuts corners on the safes design to keep costs reasonable, i would like others opinions.


finally, I would like to know more information about the "slots" that hold the gun barrels on the sturdy safes. I would like to see them, or if they can speak on what material is used (looks like a rubber or foam) I would like to know others opinions of the material they use.
thanks.
I say Nobama.
beavo451
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Posted: 12/7/2010 8:22:45 PM
I like my Sturdy. I know some people here have issues with Amsec's warranty.

Originally Posted By christof:

finally, I would like to know more information about the "slots" that hold the gun barrels on the sturdy safes. I would like to see them, or if they can speak on what material is used (looks like a rubber or foam) I would like to know others opinions of the material they use.



It's foam glued to metal tubing.

Eight
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Posted: 12/7/2010 8:53:40 PM
I was in the same boat recently. I have been reading everything I can about safes/RSCs for what seems like months. My take between the 2 is the Sturdy is better from a security standpoint. The Amsec is a lot nicer in fit and finish. Choose which is most important to you and there is your answer. Some say that the Amsec is better security because it has "concrete" poured in between layers. I have seen multiple threads on multiple boards where people have called Amsec and gotten the same answer: the DryLight (concrete) is only for fire purposes, and does not help with security. That leaves you with a 11ga exterior (some say 10ga, some say 12ga, Amsec does not document it and I do not remember what I read in that regard). That's about what my first low-end RSC had. Not an upgrade.

Disclaimer: I am not a safe expert and I don't own either brand mentioned here. I also did not verify the DryLight answers by calling Amsec myself.
rockola
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Posted: 12/7/2010 9:47:14 PM
[Last Edit: 12/7/2010 10:05:12 PM by rockola]
This subject has been debated to death over on THR and I personally spent a lot of hours comparing the two safes before going with the Sturdy and many hours after the purchase debating the decision. I can post some of the points and comparisons here if you like but if you go to THR and do a search you'll find several threads that seem to go on forever discussing the merits of both.

Addressing the one point you mentioned though: clutches and shear pins. Sturdy safe's mechanical linkage is extremely strong and doesn't require shear pins or clutches. There is little you could possible do by way of exerting force to the handle or closing the door (I.e., closing on extended bolts, on material etc) that will damage the door's locking mechanism. Their active bolts are guided and supported at all times so they won't bind up; the bolt actuators are equally strong as evidenced by the demonstration videos. With AMSEC, you get a lot of caveats in their operating manual of all the things you can't do with their safes including closing the door on extended bolts or even slamming the door itself. Also, AMSEC only gives you a 1 year warranty on the locking and mechanical components of their safes; Sturdy is for lifetime but I've seen them say on several occasions they have never had a mechanical failure (other than the lock itself which is covered by S&G) on their safes.
beavo451
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Posted: 12/7/2010 11:16:45 PM
Originally Posted By Eight:
The Amsec is a lot nicer in fit and finish.


What do you mean by that? My Sturdy opens and closes smoothly. No play in the door when closed with a tight fit around the edges.
Noaccount
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Posted: 12/7/2010 11:22:56 PM
Originally Posted By beavo451:
Originally Posted By Eight:
The Amsec is a lot nicer in fit and finish.


What do you mean by that? My Sturdy opens and closes smoothly. No play in the door when closed with a tight fit around the edges.


I believe he is referring to the interior, similar to a Cadillac/Lincoln vs. a Mercedes/BMW. Sure the sturdy is nice, but its not the nicest. Though I have to say; I couldn't give a shit less what the inside of my safe looks like, if my safe is doing its job I am the only set of eyes that are to look upon it.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, only a highly functioning zombie. Take all opinions and advice as you see fit.
Eight
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Posted: 12/7/2010 11:43:57 PM
Originally Posted By Noaccount:
Originally Posted By beavo451:
Originally Posted By Eight:
The Amsec is a lot nicer in fit and finish.


What do you mean by that? My Sturdy opens and closes smoothly. No play in the door when closed with a tight fit around the edges.


I believe he is referring to the interior, similar to a Cadillac/Lincoln vs. a Mercedes/BMW. Sure the sturdy is nice, but its not the nicest. Though I have to say; I couldn't give a shit less what the inside of my safe looks like, if my safe is doing its job I am the only set of eyes that are to look upon it.


I am referring to the way the entire safe looks, inside and out. All personal opinion, but the Amsec has a nicer looking finish, with a lot more options to choose from regarding paint. The Amsec has nicer graphics, nicer hinges, 3 or 5-spoke handle, etc. Inside has mirrors, optional door organizer, optional wooden cabinets, nicer all-in-one interior, etc. Again, all my opinion. I believe that any average person would agree that the Amsec looks nicer.

If I were to buy one of theses safes, it would be a Sturdy. I also don't really care too much what it looks like. I believe the Sturdy offers better security, including tighter door fit, and thicker steel, with the option to add even more. Doesn't look as sexy as the Amsec to most people, but that's not why I am buying a safe.
BrettGrieve
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Posted: 12/8/2010 12:50:08 AM
There is a sticker on the inside of the Sturdy that says: "This safe is a piece of equipment, it's not furniture." The Amsec has more lipstick and might look nicer in bright light - but the Sturdy will be more secure, uses thicker materials in most areas, and is a great company. I love my Sturdy.
RIP Papa - 09/25/1916 - 11/11/2010

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
christof
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Posted: 12/8/2010 1:51:07 AM
Originally Posted By BrettGrieve:
There is a sticker on the inside of the Sturdy that says: "This safe is a piece of equipment, it's not furniture." The Amsec has more lipstick and might look nicer in bright light - but the Sturdy will be more secure, uses thicker materials in most areas, and is a great company. I love my Sturdy.


can you post some pics of yours? i want to see some interior shots with rifles, I am looking to hold 10 long guns without beating them up to put them in or take them out.
I am debating between the 2723 and 3224, i would prefer the smaller one because it will be in my closet and if i ever need more space i will buy a MUCH larger safe and convert the smaller one to a document safe and fill it with paperwork. Thanks for the responses so far.



I say Nobama.
rockola
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Posted: 12/8/2010 6:13:07 AM
3224 is one of the sizes available in 5ga steel right now. 7ga is likely more than enough steel thickness but it's always nice to get more steel for not much more money. Check the safe photo thread at the top of the page, quite a few photos of Sturdy safes in that thread.
beavo451
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Posted: 12/8/2010 11:24:13 AM
Originally Posted By Eight:
Originally Posted By Noaccount:
Originally Posted By beavo451:
Originally Posted By Eight:
The Amsec is a lot nicer in fit and finish.


What do you mean by that? My Sturdy opens and closes smoothly. No play in the door when closed with a tight fit around the edges.


I believe he is referring to the interior, similar to a Cadillac/Lincoln vs. a Mercedes/BMW. Sure the sturdy is nice, but its not the nicest. Though I have to say; I couldn't give a shit less what the inside of my safe looks like, if my safe is doing its job I am the only set of eyes that are to look upon it.


I am referring to the way the entire safe looks, inside and out. All personal opinion, but the Amsec has a nicer looking finish, with a lot more options to choose from regarding paint. The Amsec has nicer graphics, nicer hinges, 3 or 5-spoke handle, etc. Inside has mirrors, optional door organizer, optional wooden cabinets, nicer all-in-one interior, etc. Again, all my opinion. I believe that any average person would agree that the Amsec looks nicer.

If I were to buy one of theses safes, it would be a Sturdy. I also don't really care too much what it looks like. I believe the Sturdy offers better security, including tighter door fit, and thicker steel, with the option to add even more. Doesn't look as sexy as the Amsec to most people, but that's not why I am buying a safe.


I get the finish part, but you didn't say anything about how Amsec has "a lot nicer fit".
JSG
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Posted: 12/8/2010 11:39:01 AM
I just got a Sturdy. I plan on a review at some point over Christmas but you asked about finish and the long gun racks. As someone said the long gun holders are foam glued to recangular steel tubing. They also glue some carpet down the back side (nice touch) so you won't scratch anything when getting one out. Another aspect that I really like is the cut of the foam openings easily allows my side by sides to fit like a normal rifle or pump shotgun without any modification.

For finish, AMSEC kicks their behind. The Sturdy does resemble a tool and not an ornament. I cannot imagine any wife allowing it to sit in any room other than the man cave.
For fit, I cannot believe the AMSEC has any better fit. The door fits the opening perfectly. The shelves fit their locations perfectly. The gun rack fits the interior dimensions perfectly.
Eight
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Posted: 12/8/2010 12:24:50 PM
No need to get stuck on a single word. Maybe 'fit' wasn't the best word to use. I have always used 'fit and finish' as a generic phrase. Basically, the Amsec is more polished. I believe I made my point about the 2 RSCs.
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Posted: 12/8/2010 4:41:07 PM
it makes me wonder if Amsec cuts corners on the safes design to keep costs reasonable, i would like others opinions.


Cut corners? Don't know but they definitely cut steel! Don't make the mistake of buying an 11 gauge safe. As for finish I like the no nonsense look of the Sturdy, but mines in a basement corner not in my living room.
christof
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Posted: 12/8/2010 7:24:24 PM
Originally Posted By btn13:
it makes me wonder if Amsec cuts corners on the safes design to keep costs reasonable, i would like others opinions.


Cut corners? Don't know but they definitely cut steel! Don't make the mistake of buying an 11 gauge safe. As for finish I like the no nonsense look of the Sturdy, but mines in a basement corner not in my living room.



I looked at a few amsecs today and you are right, i saw a cross section of the safe walls and was not impressed. also on further inspection the interior isnt that amazing. I will be going with a sturdy and will upgrade to the 5gauge body, I am now looking at the upgrade options available to further improve security. With that said I would like to know the most common method/methods more determined theives attempt entry, so I can decide what, if any security upgrade options I would like to spend more on. thanks
I say Nobama.
rockola
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Posted: 12/8/2010 8:06:53 PM
You are making a great choice and so awesome you're getting 5ga, I'd buy one if I had a place to put it. For security improvements, and if you plan to bolt it down in a corner of a room, you can add another 7ga steel plate on the exposed side for a little over a hundred bucks. Adding an additional stainless steel plate over the lock box is like 180 dollars which will put 1/2" of steel that's torch resistant over a sensitive security area of the safe. It is all probably over kill though since this is a very secure safe but the extra plate on the side is just too cheap not to do in my opinion and it will take a lot longer to cut through about 0.39" of steel verses 0.21".
christof
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Posted: 12/8/2010 8:35:12 PM
Originally Posted By rockola:
You are making a great choice and so awesome you're getting 5ga, I'd buy one if I had a place to put it. For security improvements, and if you plan to bolt it down in a corner of a room, you can add another 7ga steel plate on the exposed side for a little over a hundred bucks. Adding an additional stainless steel plate over the lock box is like 180 dollars which will put 1/2" of steel that's torch resistant over a sensitive security area of the safe. It is all probably over kill though since this is a very secure safe but the extra plate on the side is just too cheap not to do in my opinion and it will take a lot longer to cut through about 0.39" of steel verses 0.21".


I plan on putting in the corner of a room and was thinking of putting the left side of the safe against the wall so i have more room to open the door, also this will protect drilling from the side of the moving bolts. Is this an ideal location for a safe? the torch resistant plate is something i might consider, also the hardplate upgrade looks interesting. If a determined thief wants in what is the most common method of entry?
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rockola
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Posted: 12/8/2010 9:11:00 PM
[Last Edit: 12/8/2010 9:52:24 PM by rockola]
Christof,

Yes bolting it down in a corner away from the hinges is best mostly so you can open the door fully if you need to. The drill resistant hard plate is something even Sturdy only recommends for certain customers because it makes it extremely difficult for a locksmith to get in even when they have drill points given to them by Sturdy, it also voids the locksmith entry part of the warranty. The stainless plate over the lock box is a nice upgrade too for security. I'm pretty sure and others can correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read that statistics show the sides of gun safes are the most common attack points (edit I need to search where I read that info because intuitively I would think it's a pry attack). Call Terry at Sturdy and ask his opinion though on security options; he is probably the most knowledgeable person I've spoken with on the subject and he is an honest person in my opinion and will give you good advice even if you are not buying his safe.

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Posted: 12/8/2010 9:30:51 PM
I went with the AMSEC because I got a good deal on it, and could get it delivered locally. I live on a hill, and did not really care to wrestle a large safe up to my door and into the house.
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its maximum hour of danger. You are that generation, that is your role, this is that moment.

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BrettGrieve
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Posted: 12/9/2010 12:44:48 AM
Originally Posted By christof:
Originally Posted By rockola:
You are making a great choice and so awesome you're getting 5ga, I'd buy one if I had a place to put it. For security improvements, and if you plan to bolt it down in a corner of a room, you can add another 7ga steel plate on the exposed side for a little over a hundred bucks. Adding an additional stainless steel plate over the lock box is like 180 dollars which will put 1/2" of steel that's torch resistant over a sensitive security area of the safe. It is all probably over kill though since this is a very secure safe but the extra plate on the side is just too cheap not to do in my opinion and it will take a lot longer to cut through about 0.39" of steel verses 0.21".


I plan on putting in the corner of a room and was thinking of putting the left side of the safe against the wall so i have more room to open the door, also this will protect drilling from the side of the moving bolts. Is this an ideal location for a safe? the torch resistant plate is something i might consider, also the hardplate upgrade looks interesting. If a determined thief wants in what is the most common method of entry?


In my experience (LE), I have only seen brute force attacks - pry attempts and all out beating. I have yet to see (or even hear about in my line of work) a cut attack or torch attack. The 5ga is a great choice - something I wish was offered when I bought mine! If you were to upgrade anything, I'd suggest the extra plate on the walls (full height) and fire lining. Get a good alarm, and don't keep any tools nearby and you should have a very secure container.
RIP Papa - 09/25/1916 - 11/11/2010

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
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Posted: 12/9/2010 2:10:29 AM
The Amsec's warranty should be a big enough reason to shy away from it.
Ar's are cool!
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Posted: 12/9/2010 2:39:49 AM
Originally Posted By BrettGrieve:
Originally Posted By christof:
Originally Posted By rockola:
You are making a great choice and so awesome you're getting 5ga, I'd buy one if I had a place to put it. For security improvements, and if you plan to bolt it down in a corner of a room, you can add another 7ga steel plate on the exposed side for a little over a hundred bucks. Adding an additional stainless steel plate over the lock box is like 180 dollars which will put 1/2" of steel that's torch resistant over a sensitive security area of the safe. It is all probably over kill though since this is a very secure safe but the extra plate on the side is just too cheap not to do in my opinion and it will take a lot longer to cut through about 0.39" of steel verses 0.21".


I plan on putting in the corner of a room and was thinking of putting the left side of the safe against the wall so i have more room to open the door, also this will protect drilling from the side of the moving bolts. Is this an ideal location for a safe? the torch resistant plate is something i might consider, also the hardplate upgrade looks interesting. If a determined thief wants in what is the most common method of entry?


In my experience (LE), I have only seen brute force attacks - pry attempts and all out beating. I have yet to see (or even hear about in my line of work) a cut attack or torch attack. The 5ga is a great choice - something I wish was offered when I bought mine! If you were to upgrade anything, I'd suggest the extra plate on the walls (full height) and fire lining. Get a good alarm, and don't keep any tools nearby and you should have a very secure container.


This was a number of years ago, and if I had pictures, they have long since been lost. My father's business with no alarm, cameras, and generally lax security (all since rectified) was broken into and the safe was torched.
Now then, part of the business is auto repair (exhaust work especially) so the torch was on site , and they came in a way that afforded them all the time in the world. However they failed in getting the safe open.
It was a large old (antique?) safe with a 1" plate door bolted to the floor. The safe allowed limited access because its tucked in a corner (hinge out) and the flooring was linoleum over concrete.

Our best guess as to why they gave up was pretty simply, in trying to torch the safe they managed to drop allot of slag onto the linoleum and in the small space afforded to them to work, and the small room the safe is in we figure they probably about killed themselves in the process.
The locksmith told us that if they hadn't used a sledge hammer on the dial and handle in addition to the torch the safe would have been completely functional.

Story aside; be aware of the tools you provide for potential thieves, thick steel is a good investment, layered security is key, and think about possible deterrents (in our case, caustic fumes)
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, only a highly functioning zombie. Take all opinions and advice as you see fit.
BrettGrieve
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Posted: 12/9/2010 7:45:17 AM
Originally Posted By Noaccount:
Story aside; be aware of the tools you provide for potential thieves, thick steel is a good investment, layered security is key, and think about possible deterrents (in our case, caustic fumes)


Awesome.
RIP Papa - 09/25/1916 - 11/11/2010

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
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Posted: 12/9/2010 8:10:16 AM
OP - you need a GSD security upgrade
christof
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Posted: 12/9/2010 7:00:46 PM
[Last Edit: 12/9/2010 7:03:58 PM by christof]
i went through the gun safe thread a few times and could not see any good pics of smaller sturdy safes with guns, If i want to comfortably hold 4 AR15's with optics and 2 basic 870s would the 2419 way too small? the 2419 is a good size to fit in my closet but the inner dims with the fire lining of 19"x14" seems a little small for what im trying to fit. i called sturdy today and they said with the easy out loop it holds 14 long guns and 8 if i chose the hunters rack option. I know the numbers are always ambitions from companies so i want to know what im really looking at.
I say Nobama.
beavo451
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Posted: 12/9/2010 7:27:18 PM
Originally Posted By christof:
i went through the gun safe thread a few times and could not see any good pics of smaller sturdy safes with guns, If i want to comfortably hold 4 AR15's with optics and 2 basic 870s would the 2419 way too small? the 2419 is a good size to fit in my closet but the inner dims with the fire lining of 19"x14" seems a little small for what im trying to fit. i called sturdy today and they said with the easy out loop it holds 14 long guns and 8 if i chose the hunters rack option. I know the numbers are always ambitions from companies so i want to know what im really looking at.


I just took a measuring tape to mine and I would say you could do it. There are six of the slot cut outs in 19".
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