Just wondering if any military units use Sig rifles?  Which ones?

Switzerland

Do they use the 556?

They use the 550 / 551 / 552 / 553 series.

The 556 is an American creation to my understanding. Similar but with lots of cost-cutting design changes and market factor updates.

Elements of the 556 design have back-filtered into the newer Swiss SAN rifles though, like their new aluminum lower that takes AR mags which is now offered on the 553 carbines.

Edit: I also think Malaysia or another pacific rim country's military uses them as well as the Swiss Guard at the Vatican.

Do you think more LE agency's use sig rifles?

More than what?

The classic Sig rifles are a dying line.

The 556 has been adopted on a very small scale by some PDs and even fewer foreign militaries.

I think the 556xi had a lot of potential where the 556 didn't, especially with export sakes.

The 516 and 716 have been adopted by write a few foreign militaries, but not by the US military.

The MCX has garnered a lot of interest with the best high level SOF/CT orgsnizations on the planet.

The classic rifles and 556 are at the end of their life span. The 516 and MCX will be the future of Sig rifles.

I use my 556 as my patrol rifle.

Looking forward to seeing the MCX. I haven't heard any recent updates about it though.



 

This and its a real shame the 55x series are some nice guns.

The latest I've heard publicly is, according to LDD on Sigforum, a planned end of the year release.


They're expensive for what you get. They're a beautiful rifle that oozes quality, but they're expensive to build, and subsequently are too expensive to justify while not offering needed elements for those who use their rifles professionally.

The 556Xi would never make it as a combat rifle....not saying for a LEO!

That big hump where the dust lips are and the charging handle comes back is reinforcement  for full auto structural integrity

That build up is there to make up for the loss in materials for the charging handle and you see this on the 556 classic line  and ALL 55X SAN rifles.

Notice the 2 slots for the Ambi charging handle?...That would be  a no go on a full auto like the 55X series as the action is pretty violent as it is.

This from the mouth of Swiss Arms.

I think some of the earlier posts about the 55X showing its age are correct...Its too bad because "I" believe there to be no better PRODUCTION combat rifle in

existence. Just my opinion....

That said, even though I love my SAN 553 I would grab my SCAR 16 over anything else, It takes standard magazines, it's accurate and very light.

basically it offers everything my 553 can do but cheaper and a little lighter.

Brugger & Thomet have been in process of creating some polymer weapons possibly for the Swiss armed forces

and are even being imported to the USA as pistols.

But I think the contract is up for Swiss Arms

As for current users, I know PASKAU royal Malaysian air force use them and of course Switzerland but I think  special operations have them at there disposal.

Border patrol was using 552s

It says japan and Turkey use the 556...

I know of a few officers here in Northern NV using the 556 classic

OK I new to sig so this is a stupid question.
What is the difference between 551 55 553 556?
If you have a like that would be cool.
thanks

From the start:

The Sig 550 is the fill length rifle version used by the Swiss military, it was based off the earlier Sig 540 design.
The Sig 551 is identical to the Sig 550, but with a shortened barrel and gas system. It is offered with either a 14.3" bbl (Sig 551SB), or 17.9" bbl (Sig 551LB). Basically, it's a carbine version of the 550.
The Sig 552 was the original PDW/compact version of the rifle. This featured a highly modified bolt, main spring and gas system. It came in both 8.9" and 13.6" bbl versions.
The Sig 553 was a redesign of the 552, with the aim of simplifying the design and making it operationally more like the 550/551. It uses a modified return spring, but the gas system and bcg are analogous to the original 550, unlike the 552. It has replaced the 552 in Swiss Arms AG product line (the current manufacturer of the above listed rifles).
All the Swiss rifles originally featured stamped steel uppers and lowers with welded on diopter sights, and all took a proprietary polymer rock in style magazine. They are now offered with a flat top picatinny rail as an option instead of iron sights, as well as options for black finish and/or furniture. An aluminum alloy lower is also offered. The Swiss Sig 55X series of rifles have a reputation for accuracy, reliability and high manufacturing standards. All Swiss Sig 55X rifles come standard with a folding stock.
The Sig 556 is an American take on the rifle series, generally noted for its cheaper quality and use of STANAG magazines rather than Swiss 550 pattern magazines. The Sig Sauer 556R was a 7.62x39 version of the Sig Sauer 556 that uses an aluminum alloy lower and takes AK-47 pattern magazines. Swiss Arms AG recently released the SG 553R, a version of the 553 in 7.62x39 that also takes AK-47 magazines and features an aluminum lower.


Above: 2 versions of the 550, one in the classic green color and diopter sights (with black furniture), and the other black with flat top picatinny rail and folding flip up sights (built in to rail).


Above: A Sig 551 compared to a Bushmaster ACR. Note the compact profile of the Sig 551, despite the barrel length only being 2.2" shorter than the ACR.

As for the question of who uses Sig 55X rifles, numerous Military and police units world wide use them. The Wikipedia page has a decent rundown on users at the bottom.

Wow nice collection!
Here I was thinking I was good to go with my 553

The Sig 556 is a good rifle..I have owned 3 of them and I have notice they are hit or miss.

Some have had ZERO failures while I've had one that refused to work.

The earlier ones which were actually made of Swiss parts gave me the most trouble but the parts content alone is worth $2000.00

My 2011 Sig 556 SWAT ran flawless

But to give an idea of the difference between a SIG USA 556 and

A SAN Swiss series rifle, 550, 551, 552/553, I don't think Swiss arms would let a defect rifle

Leave it's factory

great info and pic!!!!!!
thanks again

Before the prevalence of the 416 and MP7, NSW purchased a limited number of 552's to supplement aging MP5's and "immature" Mk18's. The list of countries/units/agencies that use or have used the 550 series is exhaustive. Shouldnt be hard to find some action shots of Indian security forces using them in Mumbai... I think the SAS adoption of the Diemaco SFW and the increasing popularity of the 416 and SCAR have signaled the end of the 550 series' popularity with SMU's.

Unfortunately I have to agree. When you combine the reliability and modularity of modern AR pattern rifles, and look at the high cost of the Sig 55X rifles, it understandable why SMU's are no longer choosing Sigs.

As mentioned, plenty of countries use the SIG/SAN rifles. They're pretty popular for SF teams and SWAT teams. The 556 is the Americanized version, and although they have been sold to some domestic PDs (and probably some foreign ones to) the real SIG (now SAN) rifles are what is mainly used.



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I don't think the SIG rifles cost much more than ARs. Yes, they'll charge civies $2500 or so plus $50 for a magazine but no military is paying anywhere near that.

SAN is a small outfit, l hear you can count the employees on your fingers and toes numbers...

Take into account the process/ cost to make each one.

I don't see other manufacturers using the same brazing/ilaflon process like SAN

So in the end SAN is having to compete with FN, Colt, HK, arsenal and tons of other arms manufacturers

They are still producing a superior/ time consuming/ costly to make / dated technology

While STILL having to compete with easy to produce rifles COST wise... No wonder.

and SAN is doing all this with maybe 20 Employees!

Since SANs contract has been filled "from what I understand" and a society that wants little

To do with weapons or any arms manufacturing it's going to be tough.

In the end it's a Rolex AK using proprietary mags

Don't get me wrong they are awesome but I can 100% assure you

FN is not using the same processes SAN is using...

The only current military production rifles I have seen that come close is

The  Swedish bofors dynamics AK-5

Considering an M4 costs the Army -$500, even the reduced SAN rifles are significantly more expensive even with bulk purchases.

Everyone complains about Sig USA not making SAN quality rifles. I show with people involved in Americanizing the 55X, and was told that while the processes involved to make and weld the SAN rifles would have near doubled the price of the 556 putting it out of teach of most consumers with little real effect to its capability.

The engineer of the XI pressed to bring the SAN style welding to the XI and they just couldn't justify the price increase. 55X rifles are very expensive to make and there's no real advantages they hold over an AR.

It's a case of being a Breitling in a Suunto world.

I'm sure it will be more costly to make, but I don't see it being a $2,600 rifle due to production costs. I can't comment on how much it costs to make, but if DSA can make a profit selling a real dead end rifle (FN FAL) when a few countries still product them (Brazil, ect.) for $1,600 I find it hard to believe SIG can't make a profit at $1,600 or so. Same for the magazine. Same for $60 HK pistol magazines.

I think the bottom line is they don't want to pay for it...

Injection molded plastic and aluminum guns VS brazed ilaflon stamped steel guns made by a dozen or so employees

Production and time WILL be more costly

It starts to make sense

If it seems like I'm knocking SAN, no way!

My 553 is my favorite.

Same comparison can be made for 1000.00 HK in a sea of

Cheap sub 500.00 Blocks, S&W and spring fields

Nothing wrong with those either just harder to compete with.

Have you ever compared a genuine SIG 550 to a Sig Sauer 556? I would highly suggest doing so if you have not, preferably with several people who have extensive machining and welding experience. The Swiss Sig rifles cut no corners in manufacturing. Everything is done the best way possible. The result is an extremely reliable and accurate, but expensive rifle. A machinist friend of mine was very impressed with the quality of manufacture when he took mine apart (at the time he was working for a company making CF-18 parts). The other thing you have to consider is the increased cost for companies to run a very small manufacturing facility in Switzerland. Unfortunately you can't compare this to DSA. Additionally, I'd wager the Swiss Sigs are far better made than any DSA FAL.

As I mentioned before, with the latest improvements to AR's, combined with expedited manufacturing processes (CNC machining has made making good quality AR's surprisingly cheap) kills the price point of the Sig in relation to AR style rifles. This wasn't the case 30 years ago when the 550 was developed, but things change.

Yep, using stampings made sense in the 80's when the company was tooling up for supplying the Swiss military. With the advent of cheap CNC processes, it's hard for a high quality stamped gun to keep a competitive price point.

A lot of elite European teams use / used the 55X series. French marine commandos, RAID, Serb SAJ, etc. Internet has a pretty full and accurate listing of who was using them. Domestically There were numerous teams that had them for a little while. The proprietary magazines and high price has forced most of them to replace with the M4.  Too bad as the 553 is a fantastic weapon, tons better that the G36k. When I was overseas I was able to spend a few days training with a 553 as part of an exchange program . Once you got used to mag changes, I found it to be a dead reliable and accurate stick. The folding stock made it very handy in  vehicles and the short overall length with stock extended was very sweet for CQB . Totally blew the doors off of the G36k I was also using at the time.

I understand it is an expensive, well made rifle. But I just don't think it costs $2,000 to manufacture it. Same with the mags. Sure they might be more pricey to build than a PMAG, but I doubt it costs 4-5 times the price. Again, same with HK. I handled a USP the other day. It is no doubt a superb weapon, but I sincerely doubt their manufacturing costs of magazines are twice that of Glock magazines.

I don't think the 550 would have ever gone into production if it cost $1,800-2000 to produce, especially large scale. I am guessing the cost is around $800 per rifle. M4s can be churned out for around $600 including profits to the military. This essentially makes the weapon half the cost to produce. Point being, I wouldn't be surprised if SAN could sell the rifles for $1,600-700 and still turn a nice profit. Of course, this is just my speculating. Real sources would be great. But I just don't see anyone going forward with a $1,600-800 per production rifle design, even in 1980.

Flogger23m, No way....Old world craftsmenship vs mass produced

Just to give you an idea, they say if a Swiss K-31 were to be manufactured today it would cost around $3000.00 to make.

how true this is I'm not sure? iraqiveteren8888 quote

BUT if there is truth to that, then we have an idea....

Remember the processes for producing a SAN 550, 551 or 553 includes:

Copper Brazing= time

Ilaflon coating= time

Anti corrosion Treatment of internals=time

Etching of serial numbers


SAN is doing more than magnetic particle testing on it's parts to ensure function and durability I can almost assure that!


A SIG rifle is Supposed to "last a soldier a lifetime" and then some and from what I understand  that includes the original barrel.

Same with their K-31, 57 and 550

Firstly, you're guessing at the production cost. I'm not privy to how much a Sig 550 costs to produce, but I wouldn't want to pull a number out of my ass either. Second, not all M4's are $600. The Canadian government pays about $2400/piece for a C7/C8 (including the Elcan C79, according to Guns & Ammo). This is due to a combination of factors, including small production levels, high quality materials and QC standards, and domestic production. The only reasons AR's are so cheap is that it is a highly competitive market that's relatively easy to get in to. Having the receivers machined to spec from inexpensive forgings does wonders for cheap mass production. The other reason why the U.S. government can procure M4's/M16's for so cheap is they order tens of thousands per year. If you examine the cost of basically any other military rifle such as the SCAR, Sig 550, IWI Tavor, Howa Type 89, etc., and even other M16 platform rifles such as the H&K 416 and Colt Canada C7, the cost is in the thousands of dollars. Interestingly enough, even certain branches of the the U.S. military buys some of these more expensive rifles from KAC (M110 SASS), or has rifles like the Mk 12 SPR built to their desired specifications, as the standard M16 doesn't have the desired performance characteristics, despite both the Mk 12 and M110 being Ar 15/10 platform rifles.

As for the higher cost of Sig 550/H&K USP mags compared to Magpul PMAGS and Glock mags, you're failing to take production numbers and labor costs in to account. There are very few Sig 550's out there compared to AR's. Magpul makes tens of thousands of magazines per year, while SAN probably makes 1/10th that. For a military contract, the order will consist of X number of rifles, with Y number of magazines per rifle. Once that order is filled, there is usually a severe reduction in demand for magazines as any new demand will come from LE contracts and civilian sales (as with the rifles). In the U.S., there is a constant, high demand for AR magazines, both for domestic consumption and export. This means that a company can produce 50,000 magazines with the knowledge that they will all sell. If SAN were to produce that many magazines, they'd be sitting on them for the next decade. The same applies to Glock vs. H&K. the other factor is market forces in the U.S. are different from elsewhere in the world. A gun manufacturer/retailer can survive on MUCH lower profit margins because of vastly lower overhead costs and taxes. This is not so in the rest of the world.

Don't forget the Nitrided barrel (superior to chrome lining IMO). It's the attention to detail that really blows you away with the SIG. It's not just manufactured to "meet the minimum military requirements", it's made to be a top of the line rifle.

I'm not saying the magazines are not more expensive, but I sincerely doubt they are over twice the cost. The SIG mags existed well over a decade before the Pmag did and essentially started out with a military contract (Switzerland). This contrasts with the Pmag, which started out with no military contract. Likewise, AUG mags (which do not seem different in construction, I may be wrong) have sold for $10 before. My point isn't that the 55x series isn't expensive to make. I am just saying I really doubt it is the $2,000+ manufacture cost that some claim.

This is what I have been told from an "importer" of
Swiss Arms rifles...

This does not mean I'm saying it's "fact"

From the factory $1400-1700.00 per unit for the current 553

I'm not sure if that the actual production cost or what.

Given the old sig 550 came with a 1000.00 case and like 30 magazines and scope and cleaning kit and waffenfet lube and bayonet and and and....

I bet you the older "SIG" not SAN rifles WERE indeed over $2000.00

The ilaflon is more uniformly cover than say a current "as of a year" ago steel sig lower.

I had no issue whatsoever paying the $2900.00 for mine

youre not helping my obsession here. I have 2 of my 3 Grail Semi Autos (MP5k and MP5 clones). Last one is a SAN SIGS rifle. Probably gonna have to hit the lotto to get the last one.

Sig 553 pistols. Not cheap, but it's not priced like a transferable machine gun.

Yes, I think they are a good buy right now... considering the way the preban 550 went I would jump on one, but only if you are a hi quality SAN Swiss kinda guy.
of course your not getting the 1000.00 case and scope and all the goodies that came with the 550.
If I could afford it I would by two of them yesterday!

Everyone wants a classic SAN gun. So Sig offers one and guess what... people complain about the price while the 556 series is selling great.

Got my 553 for 2,700. No complaints here.

Just picked this 553 up today.  This was an expensive thread.

I was an early adopter and paid $3900....and I'm still glad I have mine. Timex watches likely also outsell Rolex; that doesn't make them better than a Rolex.  The 556 sells well because the majority of American gun owners tend to look at price as the very most important attribute - this is why crap-tastic DPMS and other bottom feeder ARs sell so well in the US, while high end ARs are still a niche market.

Nice.  That looks like it is an exiter marked pistol based on the flash hider but it doesn't apeare to have the god awful markings on the ejection port side.  

Am I correct? If so I have never seen one with diopters like that.  Where did you get it? Also is it a high serial number like in the 500s?

i know, but I have an 8 mo old daughter.  I'm trying to talk my classIII guy into buying One and letting me put it on layaway.

You have to buy a Mike Otte flash hider ASAP!

Or find one of the PASKAU ones.

Awesome though!!! congrats!

This is an original 1987 Swiss Army issue 90PE, mint and unfired with no import marks.
This one is Mfg'd by Sig Neuhausen.  Sig no longer exists. SIG America is the last one with the name SIG, but the rifles are quite different.
This one has the original issue manual in German and the spare parts kits.

SIG now SAN but who knows how much longer that will even last. It's amazing how much stuff the original Rifles came with... I've seen those cases sell for $900.00 alone.

There are some who have to have a certain rifle from a certain factory made between certain dates for certain reasons.  

I disagree that price is the most important attribute that makes the 556, 556R and the upcoming 556xi successful.  

It's not "price" but value.  There's a market here, and to compete in it, you've got to show the largest part of the market that your rifle delivers reliability, longevity, usability and solid design features.

The American consumer doesn't want to just 'own' it... he wants to shoot this rifle.  Hard, like a bastard.  Put it through his own version of a combat rifle crucible.  

I respect the beauty and finesse of the all Swiss guns, but if I bought one, I honestly would hesitate to do with it what I do all the time in training with my 556 guns.  Based on the price.  

At some point, it becomes too valuable to shoot.  Collectors don't care.   Others like me will look for a different route.  

That's right, StormSG553, and a dose of reality.
That particular rifle that 1911sr posted is one of 5 known to be in the US. Current value in it's mint condition is $21,000.00. In Switzerland, $1,200.00. Actual value as a semi auto, despite the maker.... probably around $800.00. Idiocy, right? That outlandish value is solely politically/man made. It's an excellent rifle, but $21,000.00? Give me a break.

That rifle is here at Swiss Products and is, as yet, unfired. The Hawkeye Pro Borescope proved the state of the barrel. If it was fired beyond the three proofing rounds, it's not detectable. It took a full 6 months just to get the correct projectiles. We do have maybe 100 rounds of issue ammunition and broke one down to it's components so we could duplicate the round.  The powder was identified for us and is still commercially available. Getting those projectile profiles in that weight was a bit harder.

This rifle bore is already hBN slurry sealed and all 2,000 of the projectiles I obtained are now hBN impact coated. I intend that rifle to pass on the my Great Grandchildren, with all of them getting to use it as intended.

In 1989 or so I brought in  5 each of the civilian 551s and 552s for about $1,200.00 each. Those same imports today are bringing $4,000.oo to $6,000.00 depending on condition with a NIB bringing the highest. Little of the above is within the scope of value reality, but we can thank the know-nothing airheads in DC for the state of pricing on these rifles.

As far as any semi-auto leaving Switzerland for the US...... It's not going to happen.  My Distributors in both Switzerland and the Netherlands keep me apprised of the current and changing laws.
Damned shame, isn't it.

That is an absolutely beautiful rifle and accessory set.

I hear you and you definitely raise some good points. I shoot all of my guns, including my transferable MGs. But I do tend to baby the rare and valuable items. My 556-to-552 conversion gets ridden hard and put away wet, while I tend to baby my Swiss guns. They still get used. I'm a shooter and a collector; some guns see hard use, others see light use.