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Posted: 10/25/2016 1:59:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Wouldn't slapping the 16" barrel make it no longer an SBR, therefore no longer an NFA weapon?
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Posted: 10/25/2016 2:03:07 PM EDT
[#2]
You're in AZ, why is it going through an FFL in the first place?
And yes, once the short barrel is removed and a 16"+ barrel is installed, it no longer falls under the purview of the NFA. Now if Customer B wants to install a short upper he's going to have to file a Form 1 and start over. This might raise some questions with the ATF that will likely cause some delays while Customer A sends them a letter stating that the rifle was sold as a Title I firearm. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 2:04:15 PM EDT
[#3]
In that example the rifle would still be an SBR. A NFA item has to be taken off the registry before it isn't NFA regardless of the barrel length currently on the item.
Having said that, I'm not aware of any mechanism that the NCIS check would catch the situation. I highly doubt the systems are connected, there isn't really any reason for them to be. IMO, the seller would be ultimately responsible and the one changed as long as the buyer or FFL didn't know of the situation. The seller would likely be revealed of the rifle with no reimbursement and I could see an audit in the FFL's future. Interesting question though. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 2:05:46 PM EDT
[#4]
a NICS check is a background check to see if the person doesn't have anything that would deny from having the firearm transfer. the only thing that is even mention about a firearm to NICS, is it's a long gun, pistol or other (receiver). they don't ask the make, model, status, SN rtc.... of the firearm
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Posted: 10/25/2016 2:07:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In that example the rifle would still be an SBR. A NFA item has to be taken off the registry before it isn't NFA regardless of the barrel length currently on the item. Nope. Nothing is ever taken off the registry. It would just be annotated that it's no longer Title II. ATF has stated in writing that an SBR is the sum of it's parts. Without the short barrel it's no longer an SBR. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 2:16:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In that example the rifle would still be an SBR. A NFA item has to be taken off the registry before it isn't NFA regardless of the barrel length currently on the item. Good try, but as noted, no. An SBR/SBS is no longer considered NFA when not configured as such. An SBR/SBS is not such by its registration or lack thereof, it's an SBR/SBS by its configuration. The registration just makes its possession lawful. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 2:16:46 PM EDT
[#7]
You still have an NFA stamp assigned to that serialized lower.
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Posted: 10/25/2016 2:29:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You still have an NFA stamp assigned to that serialized lower. There can be dozens, possibly even hundreds of stamps, associated with a particular serial number. They are no longer valid when the registration changes. There is in fact a robust aftermarket in NFA stamps on Ebay and the like to stamp collectors, for NFA, especially AOW type $5 denomination, stamps that are no longer relevant to the firearm for which they were issued. Think about it - you buy a machinegun. Sell it. You've still got the stamp, but there's a new one out there, and the registry has been updated to reflect a different owner. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 6:07:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Is there anything in place that Would stop this? I don't think the nics check would. There is no reason to stop it. It is legal sale of a rifle. Now if customer B slaps Customer A's short upper on it, that is a problem, but not the FFLs problem. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:15:35 PM EDT
[#10]
All I wanted to know was if someone brought in a rifle which was registered as an SBR and did some shadyiness and swapped the barrel just to forego the stamp process on a transfer.
You know what fuck the SBR Let's say it was a damn full auto whatever. All I'm asking is. Is there something which triggers the FFL in any way regarding that "stop this is an NFA weapon" For example let's say someone brought in an m16 lower only took out the sear etc. Being that the gun is registered under NFA (and the FFL it was brought to is not an sot) u know what never mind. There is no way to track it. I guess all I was asking is when you an sot is there any extra steps in transferring an NFA item. Btw I didn't realize that putting a 16iinch barrel on an SBR automatically made it not registered as an SBR anymore. Yes I understand it's NOT a "short" barrel anymore but the serial number for the firearm is still under SBR status. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:18:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I'm asking is. Is there something which triggers the FFL in any way regarding that "stop this is an NFA weapon" No. I guess you have not done any NICS checks yet? |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:21:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're in AZ, why is it going through an FFL in the first place? . You realize this is the FFL forum right ? I wasn't asking about a private transfer. Even though AZ doesn't require an FFL on a private transfer. There's many people that would still like to use an FFL for whatever reasoning of their own. Also this was all just a hypothetical question. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:22:41 PM EDT
[#13]
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No. I guess you have not done any NICS checks yet? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All I'm asking is. Is there something which triggers the FFL in any way regarding that "stop this is an NFA weapon" No. I guess you have not done any NICS checks yet? Several I guess I should have been more clear in the beginning and just asked if an sot has any different/extra steps. But anyway I did originally say I don't think a nics check would stop anything. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:25:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Several Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All I'm asking is. Is there something which triggers the FFL in any way regarding that "stop this is an NFA weapon" No. I guess you have not done any NICS checks yet? Several Then why do you need to ask if they could stop a transfer of an NFA weapon since you do not provide identifying info such as a serial number 
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:27:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryGood try, but as noted, no. An SBR/SBS is no longer considered NFA when not configured as such. An SBR/SBS is not such by its registration or lack thereof, it's an SBR/SBS by its configuration. The registration just makes its possession lawful. Truth! |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:32:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then why do you need to ask if they could stop a transfer of an NFA weapon since you do not provide identifying info such as a serial number
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All I'm asking is. Is there something which triggers the FFL in any way regarding that "stop this is an NFA weapon" No. I guess you have not done any NICS checks yet? Several Then why do you need to ask if they could stop a transfer of an NFA weapon since you do not provide identifying info such as a serial number
My original post I stated that "I don't think a nics check would" I was just asking a hypothetical situation. I'm not an sot. And I was just asking a curious question geez. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 7:39:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My original post I stated that "I don't think a nics check would" I was just asking a hypothetical situation. I'm not an sot. . It does not matter if you are an SOT or not. NICs is handled the same for both. |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 8:18:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I wanted to know was if someone brought in a rifle which was registered as an SBR and did some shadyiness and swapped the barrel just to forego the stamp process on a transfer. It would be no different if the second owner bought a rifle that never was an SBR and put a short barrel on it. As stated, an SBR (or AOW or SBS) is the sums of it's parts and the ATF has stated that an SBR is not an SBR when it has a 16"+ bbl on it. If the second owner wanted to legally put a short barrel on it, it would need to be registered again by the new owner. You know what fuck the SBR Let's say it was a damn full auto whatever. A machine gun is defined by it's construction and it's more than the presence of a sear that makes it a MG, it's the fact it CAN accept a sear (extra holes) All I'm asking is. Is there something which triggers the FFL in any way regarding that "stop this is an NFA weapon" For example let's say someone brought in an m16 lower only took out the sear etc. No, because it's on the gun store owner to look at a receiver and go "that's a machine gun" I can't sell it. There's no cross checking of a SN against the NFA when transferring a firearm. It would be impractical. Being that the gun is registered under NFA (and the FFL it was brought to is not an sot) u know what never mind. There is no way to track it. You're right, there's no real way to track an NFA weapon besides the NFR, and even then all it is doing is annotating the existence of a stamp. When you get a stamp for a letter it doesn't track the from and to on the letter, only that the fee to send the letter has been paid. I guess all I was asking is when you an sot is there any extra steps in transferring an NFA item. Yes there are, but that's not the question you asked. You asked if a title 1 firearm is tracked as a title 2 weapon even though it legally isn't. Btw I didn't realize that putting a 16iinch barrel on an SBR automatically made it not registered as an SBR anymore. Yes I understand it's NOT a "short" barrel anymore but the serial number for the firearm is still under SBR status.Which doesn't matter because the firearms are not NFA. Additionally, the NFR (the NFA registry) is horribly maintained, inaccurate, and basically useless even according to the ATF. They can't use their own records in court to convict illegal NFA). |
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Posted: 10/25/2016 8:47:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there something which triggers the FFL in any way regarding that "stop this is an NFA weapon" If the transfer dealer is knowledgeable enough to recognize that the firearm is full-auto versus semi-auto (doesn't have to be AR, could be anything) and the seller is engaging in shenanigans, then his best course of action is to tell both parties to GTFO of his premises before he calls the cops and the ATF. There is no "trigger" from NICS. The FFL should be knowledgeable enough to know when something screwy is going on. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 3:22:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There can be dozens, possibly even hundreds of stamps, associated with a particular serial number. They are no longer valid when the registration changes. There is in fact a robust aftermarket in NFA stamps on Ebay and the like to stamp collectors, for NFA, especially AOW type $5 denomination, stamps that are no longer relevant to the firearm for which they were issued. Think about it - you buy a machinegun. Sell it. You've still got the stamp, but there's a new one out there, and the registry has been updated to reflect a different owner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You still have an NFA stamp assigned to that serialized lower. There can be dozens, possibly even hundreds of stamps, associated with a particular serial number. They are no longer valid when the registration changes. There is in fact a robust aftermarket in NFA stamps on Ebay and the like to stamp collectors, for NFA, especially AOW type $5 denomination, stamps that are no longer relevant to the firearm for which they were issued. Think about it - you buy a machinegun. Sell it. You've still got the stamp, but there's a new one out there, and the registry has been updated to reflect a different owner. And if they don't NFA the lower they purchased from you, which was once a stamped item? Say, if they keep it as a 16" configuration. To the ATF, if you sold it private sale they wouldn't know the wiser. To them it's still an NFA item assigned to you. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 4:10:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And if they don't NFA the lower they purchased from you, which was once a stamped item? Say, if they keep it as a 16" configuration. To the ATF, if you sold it private sale they wouldn't know the wiser. To them it's still an NFA item assigned to you. Be a good idea for the previous registrant to write a letter to the NFA Branch, notifying them the firearm was reconfigured as non-NFA and sold off as a Title 1 firearm, then. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 6:24:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It does not matter if you are an SOT or not. NICs is handled the same for both. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My original post I stated that "I don't think a nics check would" I was just asking a hypothetical situation. I'm not an sot. . It does not matter if you are an SOT or not. NICs is handled the same for both. I shuda been clear originally I know nics isn't different either way. I was just asking anything different for an NFA transfer. My mistake |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 6:27:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I shuda been clear originally I know nics isn't different either way. I was just asking anything different for an NFA transfer. My mistake No NICS check on NFA is the most obvious difference. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 3:22:03 AM EDT
[#24]
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No NICS check on NFA is the most obvious difference. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I shuda been clear originally I know nics isn't different either way. I was just asking anything different for an NFA transfer. My mistake No NICS check on NFA is the most obvious difference. thats not what i was asking. i meant transferwise.......but about nics and NFA.. there ARE ffls. who always have and still do nics for NFA even though its clearly noted that theres NO need. with the new 41F i guess it dont matter if the ffl does an ffl check or not . |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:43:26 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thats not what i was asking. i meant transferwise.......but about nics and NFA.. there ARE ffls. who always have and still do nics for NFA even though its clearly noted that theres NO need. with the new 41F i guess it dont matter if the ffl does an ffl check or not . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I shuda been clear originally I know nics isn't different either way. I was just asking anything different for an NFA transfer. My mistake No NICS check on NFA is the most obvious difference. thats not what i was asking. i meant transferwise.......but about nics and NFA.. there ARE ffls. who always have and still do nics for NFA even though its clearly noted that theres NO need. with the new 41F i guess it dont matter if the ffl does an ffl check or not . This is the EXACT reason I do NOT come to a forum to get educated on what it takes to operate as an FFL!!! In my case I worked at a brick and mortar gun shop (damn near for free) for 3 years to get a basic education in the business. The owner could not emphasis enough about reading the CFR and all associated forms. If you have questions then write in a letter and submit it to the BATFE so they can respond in writing. At the end of the day a "he said she said" on a forum is NOT going to save your ass when you fail a compliance inspection. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 11:12:21 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I shuda been clear originally I know nics isn't different either way. I was just asking anything different for thats not what i was asking. i meant transferwise.......but about nics and NFA.. there ARE ffls. who always have and still do nics for NFA even though its clearly noted that theres NO need. with the new 41F i guess it dont matter if the ffl does an ffl check or not . You can't fix stupid. In any business, there are always folks who cannot read or understand the rules. |
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