I'd like to do a little bit of "white-bread" training, targeted towards middle-aged women and the inexperienced.  With that, I'd like to get a FFL to purchase stock for training, a number of Glocks, a number of M&Ps, a few Remington 870s/Mossberg 500s, and some AR-15s.

I've got some instructor certs already, and would form an LLC prior to the FFL.  Right now, I'm at an impasse with my HOA.  They're fine if I have a business, as long as they're never asked about it.  There are people who sell of Etsy here, CPAs who work out of their house, etc.  But since the ATF will likely (definitely?) ask my HOA, I'm stuck.  Our crappy regulations are written so ALL businesses are not allowed.  So yes, technically, the CPA, folks with an Amazon storefront, and big-time eBay sellers are in violation.  But they don't care, since in the lawyer's words, "it's not worth it to fight it."

Is there a way that I could write my FFL application that would only entail me purchasing stock for use in training, or am I SOL?

Why bother?  Are you looking to save money? If you're thrifty you can buy what you need for close to dealer cost without the hassle of a FFL.

You don't have to be opening a gun store to get an FFL.  You just need a legitimate firearms-related business reason to have one.

If you wish to get an 01 FFL in conjunction with your firearms training business, you may - though one would not be necessary simply to conduct that training.

I want a FFL so it's easier for me to buy stock weapons for training. I think that one of the keys to training untrained folks (and bringing more visibility and to gun laws) is to use NFA weapons like SBRs for people with less upper body strength.

If you can't conduct business from the place listed on your application (zoning, HOA, landlord, local laws, etc), ATF will not approve the application.

They are definitely going to check with the zoning authority for the county/city you reside in, and they will check with HOA.  If it is in your bylaws, you are pretty much dead in the water unless you are willing to buy/lease/rent an office or other location which would allow the business.

What makes you think it's easier?
Nonlicensee fills out a Form 4473, passes NICS, gets gun.
vs.
Licensee who keeps bound book, 4473's on file for twenty years, multiple sales records, has compliance inspections, receive phone calls for gun traces that must be complete within 24hours, etc.

Yeah, it's easier.

But if I'm just using them to train clients, then I don't have to pay markup from local shops, or transfer fees, and can get better pricing on most. I wasn't planning on selling any unless I'm replacing training weapons.

But right now I'm just facing the lack of integrity and the hypocritical actions of the HOA board. Hell, two out of the three of them had home based businesses, one a CPA, one a HVAC designer. But it was fine for them, because the HOA had plausible deniability. Oh, except it didn't.

Which means you aren't actually intending to use the FFL for engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. ATF is clear that they will not issue an FFL for personal use.


Illegal actions by those HOA board members doesn't change the fact that your HOA prohibits home based businesses. ATF will not issue you an FFL based on that prohibition.....it matters not what the HOA board members are doing.


Have you actually written a business plan?
How many students do you think you can sell your services to?
How are you going to get repeat business?
Are you in a major metropolitan area?
What makes you think your instruction will be better than what the local gun shop/gun range offers?
Will you make enough $$$$ to be able to afford all the firearms you intend to buy?

I'm not being argumentative, but having a business plan for your firearm instruction business is a must. Planning to get your FFL to buy guns for students to use is putting the cart before the horse.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from getting an FFL, just to warn you that "discounts" aren't what you seem to think they are. I regularly transfer firearms from Bud's, Kentucky Gun Co. and others where the delivered price is less than what any distributor sells for. Heck, I've bought S&W M&P15-22's from Palmetto for $150 less than any of my distributors had them for.

Simply having an FFL doesn't mean much, it's volume purchases that get discounts......and were talking hundreds of thousands of $$$$ in annual purchases.

Your shopping list:
2-3 Semiautomatic pistols $1500
1 or 2 revolvers $700
an AR15 $1000
an 870 or 500 $350

That is around $3-4 grand retail.....as the markup on new firearms is around 5%.......you'll save around $200. What do you think an FFL costs?


If you actually plan to buy/sell guns, the FFL is mandatory. For an instructor.............it's not.

Now............if five years from now you are running hundreds of clients each month and have multiple instructors working for you.........an FFL might be useful....as would your own range and gun shop.

Unless you are moving a lot of inventory, and qualify for top tier pricing from distributors or deal in quantities where you can go straight to the manufacturer, you won't save much money, if any.  I can tell you my "dealer" pricing from most of the larger distributors isn't much less than you can find every day online.  A lot of the times, the larger shops such as Buds can blow my price from a distributor out of the water.  



If you want an FFL to have an FFL, go for it.  But getting one to save money and make it easier to get some training guns is a losing proposition money and hassle wise IMHO.



 

Yep, I've got a plan together.  I live near one of the largest metropolitan areas in the US, in a "free" state.

While I don't think that I would recoup the cost of a FFL in the first set of purchases, I believe that it would pay for itself in short order when we start talking about things like shipping guns to manufacturers/gunsmiths when they need work, or selling off stock if I'd change from Glocks to M&Ps for example.  If I'm using my own weapons, I start assuming lots of risk to my own goods.  I'd file for an LLC no matter what, but I don't know how buying firearms would work with the LLC.  Do I buy them myself and just use them as part of the LLC?  I know how an LLC works for a Title II weapon, but can you buy a non-Title II weapon with it?  I suppose that you can, but I have no clue what the local shops would do, nor have I seen it done.

And what kind of reporting requirements will be triggered if I walk into a gun shop and buy 5 Glocks/ARs/shotguns of the same make and model, since I live in a border state?  If I need to sell them off, (worn out, obsolete, etc) I can do it easier than if I don't have an FFL.

If I pay SOT, I can get some cans, which I think are a good way to eliminate flinch, especially in pistol shooting.  If a person is noise-sensitive, that's another good reason to have them.  SBRs are outstanding for training people with a lack of upper body strength, and we get the added benefit of showcasing the insanity of the NFA.

Can I write-off expenses on my taxes with an LLC if I'm the one buying the guns?

You might get 5% over dealer cost buying from a big online dealer, but then figure in transfer fees.  Locally, it's going to be higher.  

That's why I think an FFL would be a good idea.

I've never heard of a gun shop offering "in-home" training and consultation.  Targeting middle-aged women who want to feel empowered.  That's where I think my niche will be.  Blue guns, SIRT, Laserlyte, maybe a cutaway or action-proving weapon, and a large screen laptop for powerpoint presentations.  One-on-one or one-one-small group interactions.  No stress environments, crawl, walk, run (SIRT, .22 clone, preferably suppressed, unsuppressed, then full-size).  One price, one hour of training.  Want to know which pistol to buy?  I can have several of the most popular ones available to shoot during your hour.  Experienced shooter but want to shoot a Glock side by side with an M&P and an XD before you buy?  Sure.  

I have a great deal of experience working with untrained/minimally trained shooters from my time in the service.  I loved getting the students that my instructors couldn't get to qual, then train them one on one, and watch them pass.  That's why I think I'm better at training than anyone else local.  I have a unique set of knowledge, skills, experience, and attitudes.  If someone wants high-speed-low-drag training, I'm not the guy.  But I can dress nicely, bring a briefcase full of non-scary things to a soccer mom's house, train her in using a firearm for self-defense, then meet her at a range and give her the confidence to protect her family.

Gotcha dude, you're obviously really into this.  I still think that it's better off for me to get an FFL.  Oh no, record keeping, the horrors!  So I can do transfers, sell on Gunbroker, sell to clients, etc.  If memory serves me correctly, some gun bloggers have received a FFL to do gun writing and research.  Let's not compare me to big time trainers, but you can bet that they have their FFL.

What if I have to ship 5 handguns to a gunsmith?  Do I feel like paying Next Day Air for a packaged box that large?  If I'm a dealer I can use USPS with much cheaper insurance.  Sure, I can pay a dealer to ship it for me.  Pack it up, drive there, wait in line, pay, maybe he sends it, maybe he screws it up.  I'd rather do it myself.

Yeah, a SBR AR with a suppressor weighs a few ounces more than a 16" AR.  Does the 16" AR come with sound and recoil attenuation?  No, it doesn't.  Is it more pleasant to shoot anything suppressed?  Yes.

I really don't care if you don't think my plan is viable-I think that it is.  Single, middle-aged women are happy to have the cable guy, plumber, and painter in their house without an issue.  I'll have had numerous background checks done by the federal government.  Can they say the same for those others?  Yes, some ranges do instruction.  None are willing to go after hours to someone's residence and bend to their schedule.  

Other than that, I'll gladly wait for the list of Texas gunshops that sell at 5% over cost.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care what you do...........I just wanted you to be aware of what ATF requires.

You can search the archives for the sad stories of guys who thought they were going to have a successful business selling guns, instructing, teaching CHL and running a range.........in Presidio, TX.




<----this guy does.

Make sure your HOA will allow a firearms business.  If they won't then the ATF will not grant you a license...period!  They will most likely require written authorization.

I already had one meeting with the board.  I've got a few tricks left up my sleeve.  I'll see what their lawyer has to say.  I hope that if the president admits to him that they told me they've known about businesses and did nothing, that he'll suggest they give me a variance so it doesn't call their leadership into question.  In all seriousness, I'm the only one who's tried to approach this legally.

Our covenants state "no business or commercial use, even if it is secondary to use as a residence", which is so poorly and broadly written, despite later in the covenants, it describes neighborhood nuisance, and a list of other things that are prohibited such as slaughterhouses, tanneries, truck stops, etc.  I'd recommend changing the 'no business..." part to something like "no residence can become secondary to a business, nor can emit any noxious vapors, sights, vibrations, etc..." whatever.  When we bought this house, I mentioned the HOA covenants to my mom, she said "so they're not allowed to babysit for money?"  Sometimes the wisdom of a first grade teacher can really get you thinking.  To keep this from becoming a HOA bitching thread, let's leave it at that.  

I did, however download the Excel doc of all of the FFLs in the US, and did some simple Find commands.  If you search for "training" you get a decent number of results, even if you exclude ones that say "firearms and training".  If you search for "holster" or "leather", you will also get a lot of results, so I would have to guess that you can get an FFL without wanting to be in the primary business of selling firearms, as long as you're in a firearms related business.

If someone recalls what I alluded to earlier in the thread, where a gun blogger got an FFL strictly for research and writing, I'd love to have my memory refreshed.

I think it would be better to 'partner' with a gun shop. You recommend the gun shop to your students and the store gives you a limited discount on items. Maybe you post some signage for the store where ever you do your instruction as well.

Unless you plan to sell firearms right away do not bother.

Sorry, but with all these questions, no you do not.