 kevlar119 
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Joined: Jul 2012  OH, USA
 Posts: 1 Feedback: 0% (0) |
Posted: 7/25/2012 3:09:56 PM
[Last Edit: 7/25/2012 3:26:05 PM by kevlar119]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT I had my ATF interview yesterday and thought all would be good with the zoning dept (I had already contacted the zoning board about a real estate business and was told no forms are required for home-based businesses). Well, I called the zoning officer this morning, per the ATF inspector - she wanted a contact name and number, so I thought I would give the officer a heads up. It ends up that there isn't any home-based FFLs in my area - he said all that have tried the appeals process have been denied. I reviewed the zoning regulations and this is the only thing I found (and he agreed as to this being the only item): "Customary incidental home occupations when conducted in a dwelling, provided that (1)No stock in trade is kept or products sold, except such as are made on the premises," He said any "business" that needed someones approval to be in the home would be denied - ie - if Avon asked for a letter for someone to sell their products via a home-based process, they would deny it. He said that if I wanted to sell guns from home without an FFL, I could do it all day long and they wouldn't have a problem. He agreed that it was a catch-22. I asked about petitioning for a variance- he said I could try, but none have been approved - "it is what your neighbors have to say that would also be an issue" (no problems with neighbors - I know them all - I live on 15 acres and I'm also a Deputy Sheriff - I'm sure they know I have weapons!). I'm not sure how to proceed - especially with the previous folks that have attempted it and been denied by the appeals board. He just kept saying that he agrees with me that it should be ok, but as soon as he is asked to put something in writing or verbally by the ATF, he has been told to say no. I'm looking for any ideas or advice. Thank you in advance. Also, - it is for a type 1 FFL. |
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Circuits
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Joined: Jan 2001 CO, USA
Posts: 6222 Feedback: 100% (21) Link To This Post |
Posted: 7/25/2012 3:39:24 PM
In the circumstance you have detailed, if the ATF wants written permission and your local authority won't give it, you'd have to sue the local authority to try and have a judge force them to say they don't care in writing. Short of that, or petitioning for commercial or multi-use zoning for a portion of your property, you will have no other recourse.
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Posted: 7/25/2012 3:45:44 PM
WOW - I was hoping it wouldn't come to that. What I don't understand is that it is ok to run a home-based real estate BUSINESS without needing anything from them in their eyes since they aren't contacted by anyone to get their permission, but the State requires a BUSINESS license, a tax ID number for the BUSINESS and BUSINESS insurance, but all that isn't considered a business in their eyes. It really shows how screwed up politics and local goverments are. Thank you for your reply!
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Bubbles
Luv C3!
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Joined: Jan 2001 WV, USA
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Posted: 7/25/2012 3:50:09 PM
[Last Edit: 7/25/2012 3:53:21 PM by Bubbles]
This is where it helps to have friends in high (and low) places in your local government, as well as a well-connected land-use attorney in your hip pocket.
I would do some quiet research, find out who has gotten a variance for any type of home-based business involving sales of products not produced on-site, and what process was used to get it. ETA: with 15 ac could you instead get re-zoned in a manner that would permit commercial use, e.g. some sort of agricultural designation instead of residential? |
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Posted: 7/25/2012 4:10:47 PM
[Last Edit: 7/25/2012 4:12:35 PM by kevlar119]
I just spoke with the zoning inspector again about the ag idea - he said it would be the same issue - - going to AG wouldn't be a problem - they don't see selling/planting/harvesting agriculture as a business since no one is asking them to sign off saying it is or isn't a business!!! The problem would be when someone calls them to ask if it is a business - -totally stupid! He, again, kept agreeing with me - he said if the ATF would ask if there were any deed or HOA restrictions, he would reply "No" and be done with it, but as soon as they mention the word "business", he has to go the other route. I am awaiting a call back from a local attorney who specializes in NRA gun laws an assists in getting FFLs. Thanks again for your reply.
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Posted: 7/25/2012 4:30:17 PM
What is the issue? The Zoning has not denied you should be GTG?
Is ATF asking for written letter it is OK? I ask as I am in an unincorporated area and did not have to provide anything of that type. Of course with a dozen other FFLs in the area, it is pretty much common knowledge. |
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Posted: 7/25/2012 4:33:07 PM
[Last Edit: 7/25/2012 5:00:01 PM by kevlar119]
Yes, she wanted to know a contact number so she could verify that all is ok with the zoning. I explained to her that I had already contacted them about my other home-based business as a real estate broker - she asked who I spoke with. I told her it had been a few years - she still wanted to talk to someone. They might have checked on yours, but didn't tell you they did.
I just emailed the ATF inspector a copy of the zoning regulations, hopefully she will not call and only review the docs. Fingers are crossed. |
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Posted: 7/25/2012 5:14:28 PM
[Last Edit: 7/25/2012 5:15:10 PM by RenegadeX]
Originally Posted By kevlar119: They might have checked on yours, but didn't tell you they did. No one to call and nothing to check on as their is no zoning board to begin with. I was asked about it. |
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Posted: 7/25/2012 6:07:34 PM
OP - this was my exact circumstance about 3 yrs ago. ATF interviewer came out and conducted interview, said "shouldn't be any problems". That was until my city wouldn't sign off on a similar letter. Seems my zoning states something to the affect "no sale of goods on the premises". ATF came back "denied".
Will just have to wait until youngest graduates high school in a few years (and I retire from USN) to move out of Cali. Sucks. rich |
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Posted: 7/25/2012 6:17:23 PM
I agree - I would just hate to move - 15 acres - atv trails - stocked fishing pond, but all located in a local that SUCKS! Best of luck to you too!
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Posted: 7/25/2012 6:18:22 PM
[Last Edit: 7/26/2012 12:54:28 PM by kevlar119]
@RenegadeX - - looks like you were a lucky one! Congrats!
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dangerdan
Royal Gunfighter
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Joined: Sep 2005 TX, USA
Posts: 2528 Feedback: 100% (36) Link To This Post |
Posted: 7/26/2012 4:29:53 AM
Just give the ATF person the name and number and hope for the best.
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Posted: 7/26/2012 10:44:59 AM
[Last Edit: 7/26/2012 11:41:27 AM by kevlar119]
Well, just got an email from the inspector - looks like she wants the name and number of the zoning inspector ~~sinking feeling~~ I believe this will be the end of the FFL pursuit.
EDIT - - I sent back the email with the contact info. I explained my entire conversations with the zoning inspector that basically boiled down to it is how she asks him the questions as to whether or not it is ok. If asked if I can have a firearms LICENSE from home, it will be fine; if asked if a firearms BUSINESS can be conducted from home, it will be denied. I told her I already have a business license from the state and I'm only asking for a license from the ATF. I said it all hinges on her. I then called the zoning inspector back and told him what I was doing - he said he understands it is a gray area and he will work with her if she is willing. So, once again, my fingers are crossed. I will post the outcome as soon as I find out. Thanks again for all of the advice |
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Posted: 7/26/2012 12:49:00 PM
Originally Posted By kevlar119: @RenegadeX - - looks like you were a luck one! Congrats! thanks, but no luck involved. My move to nowhereville was intentional. Hope things work out for you. |
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Posted: 7/26/2012 12:54:04 PM
HOLY CRAP!!! I just got an email from the inspector - - after talking with the zoning guy, she will show it as "OK for a FFL license in the report"!!!!!!!!! I about fell out of the chair when I read the email. Again, thanks to all that provided suggestions. This approval will be the first in my township - hopefully, anyone else in my area that is attempting this will see this forum - I would love to help out someone else.
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Posted: 7/26/2012 12:55:32 PM
[Last Edit: 7/26/2012 12:56:45 PM by kevlar119]
@RenegadeX: I agree - I chose to move there too, but it was to get away from regulation...not more of it - especially ones that don't make any sense whatsoever. |
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Posted: 7/26/2012 4:01:22 PM
Originally Posted By kevlar119:
HOLY CRAP!!! I just got an email from the inspector - - after talking with the zoning guy, she will show it as "OK for a FFL license in the report"!!!!!!!!! I about fell out of the chair when I read the email. Again, thanks to all that provided suggestions. This approval will be the first in my township - hopefully, anyone else in my area that is attempting this will see this forum - I would love to help out someone else. Congrats! Glad everything is working out for you. |
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Posted: 7/27/2012 8:30:15 AM
Congrats!!!
Thread-jack ahead: I know I could put this in another thread but it's very related so I figured a slight thread jack would be ok. Does the inspector dig into covenants and restrictions on properties or they just look at zoning? I'm in an unzoned area where businesses wouldn't normally have a problem, but being in a housing addition my property came with covenents & restrictions that state I cannot construct a place of business on the premises. The wording is a bit ambiguous. I think they didn't mean to completely eliminate home-based businesses, but the way they worded it makes it sound like they did. Their intention was so a person couldn't buy a lot and start a business on that lot without it being their primary residence. I want to get my FFL to start doing a little gunsmithing & refinishing on the side, but this has me wondering if they will catch that or not. My neighbor runs a home-based real-estate business, another neighbor runs a home-based t-shirt print business out the of basement of his 10,000 sf mansion, and my wife runs a "product consulting" business out of our home. Am I going to have a problem with the covenants and restrictions on my property getting my FFL just to do a little "on the side" smithing work? |
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Posted: 7/27/2012 11:59:42 AM
[Last Edit: 7/27/2012 12:09:05 PM by kevlar119]
From what I've read, it really depends upon the inspector. You said you are in a housing addition - are you in a Home Owners Association (HOA)? If so, are you able to get a letter saying that you would be permitted to have a FFL for your property? For mine to be approved by the zoning inspector the word "business" couldn't be used - I had to make sure I was only asking if I could have a "license" from the ATF and not a "business". The ATF does not grant business licenses, only firearms licenses - the State grants business licenses. I purchased my A&D books prior to talking with the zoning inspector - it had a sample letter to send to the zoning dept explaining what was intended - - the instructions with it does mention that if you are planning on doing gunsmithing to use their form located in the gunsmith items (didn't purchase that - only dealer stuff). You might try checking into whether or not this work for you - the company is RK Enterprises - - just do a search for the name and you will find it. I called and spoke with the owner - very knowledgeable and helpful. He even knew about how long the ATF inspector would take before calling me for my State - he said it is taking about 30 days - he was 4 days off! Good luck - if I can help out in any way, let me know.
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Posted: 8/2/2012 9:41:47 PM
I received the FFL today - pretty quick turn around - one week after the interview! I've already sent dealer apps to the wholesalers - I hope they are just as quick.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 11:50:07 AM
How long did it take you from mailing application to interview?
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Posted: 8/3/2012 7:11:15 PM
About 31 days to interview - 8 days after interview the FFL arrived.
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Posted: 8/3/2012 11:43:24 PM
I just had my meeting this past Monday. It was darn near 2 months from the day they cashed my check. I suspect they put me off a bit due to the 7 hour drive to see me.
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Circuits
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Joined: Jan 2001 CO, USA
Posts: 6272 Feedback: 100% (21) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/3/2012 11:51:54 PM
Originally Posted By kevlar119:
About 31 days to interview - 8 days after interview the FFL arrived. Congrats. When I got my 07 back in '01, it took almost six months back and forth with the city before they finally agreed it wasn't illegal, so it was allowed, and affirmed it to the ATF. |
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