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Posted: 9/26/2011 7:54:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Shoot, I once got told at a UPS dist center that I couldn't ship a pistol to an out of state FFL unless I showed them a copy of the FFL! Effing asshats! How about this: can a customer ship a firearm to a local FFL at one or anther address? It doesn't matter if you are shipping to an FFL across the street or across the country.....the same ATF regs/Federal laws/ USPS regs/common carrier policies apply. Federal regulations do not apply in intrastate shipments. Seriously? 
Tell that to ATF and the USPS. |
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Posted: 9/27/2011 2:31:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Shoot, I once got told at a UPS dist center that I couldn't ship a pistol to an out of state FFL unless I showed them a copy of the FFL! Effing asshats! How about this: can a customer ship a firearm to a local FFL at one or anther address? It doesn't matter if you are shipping to an FFL across the street or across the country.....the same ATF regs/Federal laws/ USPS regs/common carrier policies apply. Federal regulations do not apply in intrastate shipments. Seriously?
Tell that to ATF and the USPS. Yes, seriously. Every time 27CFR mentions shipment of firearms it is in conjunction with interstate or foreign commerce. Intrastate transportation is not mentioned. However, the BATF FAQs do mention intrastate mailings and shipments of firearms to unlicensed persons. See BATF FAQs B7 and B8, below There is nothing in the postal regulations prohibiting it either. Postal regulations also prohibit postal personnel from making interpretations of Federal firearms laws. Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. [18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)] Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30] |
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Posted: 9/27/2011 5:19:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Shoot, I once got told at a UPS dist center that I couldn't ship a pistol to an out of state FFL unless I showed them a copy of the FFL! Effing asshats! How about this: can a customer ship a firearm to a local FFL at one or anther address? It doesn't matter if you are shipping to an FFL across the street or across the country.....the same ATF regs/Federal laws/ USPS regs/common carrier policies apply. Federal regulations do not apply in intrastate shipments. Seriously?
Tell that to ATF and the USPS. Yes, seriously. Every time 27CFR mentions shipment of firearms it is in conjunction with interstate or foreign commerce. Intrastate transportation is not mentioned. However, the BATF FAQs do mention intrastate mailings and shipments of firearms to unlicensed persons. See BATF FAQs B7 and B8, below There is nothing in the postal regulations prohibiting it either. You are forgetting that there are NUMEROUS Federal regulations that apply no matter where a firearm is being shipped. 1. Only a licensed dealer or manufacturer can mail anything other than a rifle or shotgun. Average Joe mails a handgun, a frame, an AR lower or a PGO shotgun to a buddy in the same state he violates Federal law. 2. Except for the return of a firearm, dealers cannot use a common carrier OR the USPS to ship to nonlicensees. 3. All ATF regulations regarding firearm transactions still apply.......but do not prohibit transactions between nonlicensed residents from the same state as long as the seller has no reason to believe the buyer is prohibited from possessing a firearm. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:54:57 AM EDT
[#4]
You are correct that several different regulations might apply. I was only referring to 27CFR and shipments between individuals in the same State.
There are also numerous exceptions to the regulations that allow shipments of firearms to unlicensed persons by both dealers and other unlicensed individuals. However, most of these exceptions are not often used and the vast majority of those shipments will be the return of a firearm from repair. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 12/6/2014 6:01:26 PM EDT
[#5]
USPS told me once that I was required by federal law to remove all of the firing pins!! Lol!
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Posted: 1/29/2015 8:53:43 PM EDT
[#6]
If I'm barred from having people show up at my licensed premises to pick up firearms (zoning ordinance). Is it possible to drive it to the customer or meet somewhere to complete the physical transfer?
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:26:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wmjlar15:
If I'm barred from having people show up at my licensed premises to pick up firearms (zoning ordinance). Is it possible to drive it to the customer or meet somewhere to complete the physical transfer? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wmjlar15:
If I'm barred from having people show up at my licensed premises to pick up firearms (zoning ordinance). Is it possible to drive it to the customer or meet somewhere to complete the physical transfer? No. I'm surprised that you received an FFL if you can't actually conduct business at your premises. ATF regs are very clear that your license only allows you to conduct business at two locations: 1. the licensed premises 2. a gun show or other special event. §478.50 Locations covered by license.
The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except: (a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse; (b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made; (c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of §478.100; or (d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provisions of §478.100. [T.D. ATF-191, 49 FR 46890, Nov. 29, 1984, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998] §478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.
(a)(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of §478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event. (2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location. (b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community. (c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license. [T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998] |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 10:14:36 PM EDT
[#8]
I was asking if it was possible I do not have a FFL license, my zoning is giving me grief over people stopping by to pick up guns. # 6 below is said to include cars parked outside my home which is BS cause there are other FFL's within a blocks radius of me.
example belwo Home Occupations are allowed as a permitted accessory use as long as the following conditions are met: (1) The home occupation is operated entirely within the principal dwelling and only by the person or persons maintaining a residence therein; and (2) The home occupation does not have a separate entrance from outside the building; and (3) The building is not altered in such a way that any portion thereof is no longer suitable for residential use; and (4) The home occupation is limited to no more than twenty-five percent 25% of the total floor area on any one level; and (5) The home occupation does not utilize equipment except that which is customarily found in residential dwellings; and (6) There is no external evidence of the home occupation, (including, but not limited to, commercial vehicles and outdoor storage) except for one (1) non-animated, non-illuminated wall sign having an area of not more than one (1) square foot. |
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Posted: 1/7/2016 12:01:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Might want to update the batfe links in the op because they don't work anymore.
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Posted: 9/24/2016 5:03:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bubbles: Originally Posted By NAM: I am not shipping shit unless I can verify the recipient is an FFL. That means a copy of an FFL. Sure, I am not legally required to have a copy of the FFL, but I can not legally ship it across state lines to someone that is not an FFL. Fortunately there is FFL EZ Check for non-licensees. |
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Posted: 10/28/2017 2:50:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PK90:
Page 8 |
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Posted: 10/28/2017 3:34:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grendelsbane:
ATF broke the link- what was this pointing to? |
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Posted: 3/18/2021 3:11:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Maryland_Shooter: You don't and I'd never ship to anyplace that is not listed as the FFL address. I guess my question then would be, if the FFL has a physical and a mailing address that are different, which address should one ship to? Should one ask the FFL which they prefer, and is either address still considered legal? |
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Posted: 3/18/2021 5:58:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sf46: I guess my question then would be, if the FFL has a physical and a mailing address that are different, which address should one ship to? Should one ask the FFL which they prefer, and is either address still considered legal? Most ship to the premises by default. Those of us that want shipments to an address other than the premises make it pretty damn clear where to ship to. You should also understand that UPS/FedEx/etc do not deliver to USPS post office boxes, only the USPS can do that. As noted in the ATF FFL Newsletter links above, any address where a licensee wants to receive a firearm shipment is legal. There is no requirement to show it on the FFL. |
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Posted: 3/18/2021 7:11:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sf46: I guess my question then would be, if the FFL has a physical and a mailing address that are different, which address should one ship to? Should one ask the FFL which they prefer, and is either address still considered legal? If it is not indicated on the copy of the FFL that I am sent, then I ask, because I am not a mind reader. I had one FFL ask that UPS/FedEx go to the premises address and USPS shipments go to his PO Box mailing address. |
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Posted: 8/5/2021 8:49:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wmjlar15: I was asking if it was possible I do not have a FFL license, my zoning is giving me grief over people stopping by to pick up guns. # 6 below is said to include cars parked outside my home which is BS cause there are other FFL's within a blocks radius of me. example belwo Home Occupations are allowed as a permitted accessory use as long as the following conditions are met: (1) The home occupation is operated entirely within the principal dwelling and only by the person or persons maintaining a residence therein; and (2) The home occupation does not have a separate entrance from outside the building; and (3) The building is not altered in such a way that any portion thereof is no longer suitable for residential use; and (4) The home occupation is limited to no more than twenty-five percent 25% of the total floor area on any one level; and (5) The home occupation does not utilize equipment except that which is customarily found in residential dwellings; and (6) There is no external evidence of the home occupation, (including, but not limited to, commercial vehicles and outdoor storage) except for one (1) non-animated, non-illuminated wall sign having an area of not more than one (1) square foot. Are they zoned the same as you? I'd cite them as examples to your zoning department. They are clearly misinterpreting rule 6, especially if there are other FFLs with the same zoning as you, unless they were grandfathered with a zoning change. One person at a time picking up guns is no different than a friend visiting. |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2021 4:44:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IHTFP08: Are they zoned the same as you? I'd cite them as examples to your zoning department. They are clearly misinterpreting rule 6, especially if there are other FFLs with the same zoning as you, unless they were grandfathered with a zoning change. One person at a time picking up guns is no different than a friend visiting. He was asking that 6 years ago so he's probably figured it out by now... 
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Posted: 10/26/2023 2:15:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jodan1776]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: No. I'm surprised that you received an FFL if you can't actually conduct business at your premises. ATF regs are very clear that your license only allows you to conduct business at two locations: 1. the licensed premises 2. a gun show or other special event. They sell on the internet only, and their listings usually say something like "NO local pickups". So, even with a local buyer, they have to ship to another local FFL who can do the transfer. |
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Posted: 10/26/2023 1:17:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jodan1776: Actually, there are now a lot of FFLs out there who are prohibited by local law/zoning from any sales, transfer, or business at their licensed premises (usually their home). They sell on the internet only, and their listings usually say something like "NO local pickups". So, even with a local buyer, they have to ship to another local FFL who can do the transfer. I know. I do the local transfers for a Top 100 GunBroker seller. He lives in an HOA and cannot have walk up traffic to his home. "Internet only" is perfectly fine with ATF. It may not be with your local zoning or HOA. |
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