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Posted: 5/20/2017 10:43:04 PM EDT
[#1]
No way could I shoot MOA with my AUG or Tavor.
Crappy trigger + poor ergonomics to shoot from a rest = no MOA from me |
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Posted: 5/20/2017 11:54:05 PM EDT
[#2]
I shot GECO 55gr a smidge over MOA with an AUG-A1 (1.5x)
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/682724_GECO_55gr_vs_Wolf_Gold.html |
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Posted: 5/21/2017 12:49:38 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm more interested in the shtf challenge one. I'd like to do it some day the hard part is getting a range. The easiest one locally for 50yards would be NRA headquarters but they have a strict no photography rule. Also the fact that I work weekends and I'm off weekdays so the other spot where I would need to buy a target stand measure out 100 yards and try to take a selfie of my shooting position because it would be a weekday when my buddies are at work. The pain the butt factor leads to procrastination.
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Posted: 5/21/2017 12:53:55 AM EDT
[#4]
Also a quick browse there is a bullpup on there a MSAR in the non magnified division. It didn't do well but it's on there.
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Posted: 5/22/2017 2:14:22 PM EDT
[#5]
There is not currently a semi-auto Bullpup available, that I am aware of, that is capable of reliable MOA accuracy. My AUG certainly is not. It can do 2 MOA, and arguably 1.5 MOA. But not 1 MOA - not all day.
Obviously there was much excitement about the MDR, as it appeared to have the potential. However, confidence has fallen considerably in pretty much any spec given about that rifle, and even in its likeliness of its existence. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 2:47:44 PM EDT
[#6]
I thought the WA2000 was 1moa.
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Posted: 5/22/2017 3:16:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought the WA2000 was 1moa. I personally think most of the MOA all day submissions are fraudulent. And in any case, none of my AUGs, even the one with the Neutrigger, would be easy to shoot sub-MOA with. I can do it with a 20" scoped AR with handloads or my 700P bolt gun, but the AUG trigger is just not suited to it. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 3:40:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I personally think most of the MOA all day submissions are fraudulent. |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 4:33:14 PM EDT
[#9]
If I can get 1.3-1.5 MOA from an AUG-A1 with 1.5x optic and a sandbag, the potential is there I think. I've had the best groups from GECO 55gr and Australian outback 69gr SMK (I've posted the targets many time)
Iirc, there is a military shooting competition in the UK every year and the winning team is usually from the UAE (or maybe Oman) with their old beat up AUG-A1 s |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 4:42:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I can get 1.3-1.5 MOA from an AUG-A1 with 1.5x optic and a sandbag, the potential is there I think. I've had the best groups from GECO 55gr and Australian outback 69gr SMK (I've posted the targets many time) Iirc, there is a military shooting competition in the UK every year and the winning team is usually from the UAE (or maybe Oman) with their old beat up AUG-A1 s |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 8:42:00 PM EDT
[#11]
But how many of the rifles in the moa challenge are in as-issued configuration? Most have match barrels and triggers, free float handguards and a bunch of other customizations.
AUGs are using military issue, factory barrels and triggers and optics (A1 and A2 at least), not tricked out parts. To be in the 1.3-1.5 moa range with standard issue parts I think says something |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 11:13:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But how many of the rifles in the moa challenge are in as-issued configuration? Most have match barrels and triggers, free float handguards and a bunch of other customizations. AUGs are using military issue, factory barrels and triggers and optics (A1 and A2 at least), not tricked out parts. To be in the 1.3-1.5 moa range with standard issue parts I think says something |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 11:24:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Didn't DPMM say he was going to get a pup in the top 5?
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Posted: 5/23/2017 12:04:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I highly doubt the average AUG shoots that well. 
GECO 55gr FMJ 
from a beat up, early A1 with a 1.5x optic 
Do newer AUGs with the Sabre or FN barrels not shoot as good as the old ones with Steyr barrels? |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 12:11:04 AM EDT
[#15]
The last time I shot a Tavor (granted, with irons) I could hardly manage 9MOA off a bench
I shot a couple 2MOA groups with my GI-trigger C7 the same day; I wasn't the issue. Hats off to those that can take a bullpup MOA or better; I doubt I ever could. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 12:18:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Post an entry?
It's all about trying to see what you and your rifle can do. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 12:31:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The last time I shot a Tavor (granted, with irons) I could hardly manage 9MOA off a bench
I shot a couple 2MOA groups with my GI-trigger C7 the same day; I wasn't the issue. Hats off to those that can take a bullpup MOA or better; I doubt I ever could. Most are about 3-4moa as they are delivered. Good ammo and a 3# Super Sabra trigger, and a good scope, and you're down to 1.5-2moa. You'd be damn lucky to get to a consistent 1moa or under with a Tavor though, and unless and until a match grade barrel and a way to free float it becomes available you won't see it. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 10:56:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Folks the challenge is that just, a challenge. You don't have to get 1moa to enter, that isn't the point. The point is the challenge yourself and post how well you do. Yes, most bullpups today are not capable of 1moa 5x5, but so what? Shoot the best darn groups you can and post them to A.) provide good data for everyone and B.) have some fun! Do the SHTF challenge at the same time if you want and/or shoot the terrorist game.
I will say the K&M M17s might be capable with the trigger it has, not sure though. I know some folks on this board have them, it would be really cool to see one entered. |
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Posted: 5/23/2017 11:10:28 PM EDT
[#19]
I'm in to try.
I'll have to find some decent ammo. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 8:36:49 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Key word being available... I personally think most of the MOA all day submissions are fraudulent. And in any case, none of my AUGs, even the one with the Neutrigger, would be easy to shoot sub-MOA with. I can do it with a 20" scoped AR with handloads or my 700P bolt gun, but the AUG trigger is just not suited to it. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 11:14:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to thread hijack: What would you like to see/add to the challenge that supports the credibility of the posted scores? I don't think most of the entries are fraudulent, but I personally would hate to be called out with no way of satisfying the accusation. I won't say the entries are not credible, but I can not trust the "data". |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 11:53:37 AM EDT
[#22]
I would get involved with the challenge if I were to handload. Unless you're going to make your own ammo there's only so much you can squeeze out of your rifle.
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Posted: 5/24/2017 12:28:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to thread hijack: What would you like to see/add to the challenge that supports the credibility of the posted scores? I don't think most of the entries are fraudulent, but I personally would hate to be called out with no way of satisfying the accusation. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 6:51:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Short of videoing every step of the process there's no real way to verify. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not to thread hijack: What would you like to see/add to the challenge that supports the credibility of the posted scores? I don't think most of the entries are fraudulent, but I personally would hate to be called out with no way of satisfying the accusation. Back on subject: Its too bad none of your rifles shoot MOA. The bullpup concept seemed interesting. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:26:40 PM EDT
[#25]
UPDATE: I attempted the challenge. My Tavor is not capable of averaging MOA for five groups.
I'll try to change that the next time I'm at the range. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 12:44:07 AM EDT
[#26]
Glad we have a few volunteers already, looking forward to your results!
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Posted: 5/25/2017 1:06:33 AM EDT
[#27]
my range doesn't allow any targets other than theirs
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Posted: 5/25/2017 8:43:25 AM EDT
[#28]
It looks like the MDR should be shipping next week. If so, it's been advertised as sub MOA.
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Posted: 5/25/2017 8:48:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It looks like the MDR should be shipping next week. If so, it's been advertised as sub MOA. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 9:05:10 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It looks like the MDR should be shipping next week. If so, it's been advertised as sub MOA. 
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Posted: 5/25/2017 10:33:36 AM EDT
[#31]
You know...I'd be curious about how one of those Kel-Tec RFB 24" Hunters would do in the challenge. Quite a few of those models were manufactured, so they're out there. I'm one of those who isn't optimistic about most of our presently known/available bullpups filling the bill of a precision rifle, even though I'm a fairly enthusiastic bullpup owner. Maybe the DT-MDR will achieve better results, and that would be great. Bullpups were primarily designed and used for a military application to provide a compact platform that still provides some barrel length for decent minute-of-man accuracy. Still, this challenge thing is a venue providing a fun way to compare capabilities of some rifles and the shooters using them, so it would be great to see some bullpups.
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Posted: 5/25/2017 11:03:21 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9moa? Yeah it was you. Or, that was a horrific example of the gun, and defective and should be returned for repair. Most are about 3-4moa as they are delivered. Good ammo and a 3# Super Sabra trigger, and a good scope, and you're down to 1.5-2moa. You'd be damn lucky to get to a consistent 1moa or under with a Tavor though, and unless and until a match grade barrel and a way to free float it becomes available you won't see it. 
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Posted: 5/25/2017 11:08:43 AM EDT
[#33]
My guess is that most folks who buy a bullpup aren't looking for a bench gun. So they hardly ever do any real precision type shooting with it.
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Posted: 5/26/2017 5:27:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote History |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 6:49:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Try 3 more weeks minimum, and considering that is about the 10th time we've heard this claim I wouldn't give this latest DT news any credence: http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11762.msg121294
Back on topic, for folks who want to attempt to challenge and don't want to take the time to handload or test a bunch of different manufacturers match ammo to see what shoots best, I suggest 69gr FGMM. It isn't always the best load for a rifle, I've never seen it do terribly. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 7:30:30 PM EDT
[#36]
No no, I've been assured every two weeks for the past twenty years that the MDR is only two weeks away.
Two more weeks... |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 8:48:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try 3 more weeks minimum, and considering that is about the 10th time we've heard this claim I wouldn't give this latest DT news any credence: http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11762.msg121294 Back on topic, for folks who want to attempt to challenge and don't want to take the time to handload or test a bunch of different manufacturers match ammo to see what shoots best, I suggest 69gr FGMM. It isn't always the best load for a rifle, I've never seen it do terribly. |
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Posted: 5/26/2017 9:02:18 PM EDT
[#38]
I've never seen a bull pup design that could have 1 moa accuracy all day.
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Posted: 5/27/2017 5:24:18 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The front sight post was bent about five degrees to the left.; I think the owner kept it deployed too often. My sight picture was imprecise at best The other thing, is to shoot a Tavor decently, you have to actually condition yourself to it. It's different in how you get cheek weld and points of contact. Even shooting from the bench is different. YOu can't get good groups using the rear or the mag for a rest. You have to put a bag under the forward grip / thing, then use your hand to make a pocket for the buttstock. |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 9:07:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9moa? Yeah it was you. Or, that was a horrific example of the gun, and defective and should be returned for repair. Most are about 3-4moa as they are delivered. Good ammo and a 3# Super Sabra trigger, and a good scope, and you're down to 1.5-2moa. You'd be damn lucky to get to a consistent 1moa or under with a Tavor though, and unless and until a match grade barrel and a way to free float it becomes available you won't see it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The last time I shot a Tavor (granted, with irons) I could hardly manage 9MOA off a bench
I shot a couple 2MOA groups with my GI-trigger C7 the same day; I wasn't the issue. Hats off to those that can take a bullpup MOA or better; I doubt I ever could. Most are about 3-4moa as they are delivered. Good ammo and a 3# Super Sabra trigger, and a good scope, and you're down to 1.5-2moa. You'd be damn lucky to get to a consistent 1moa or under with a Tavor though, and unless and until a match grade barrel and a way to free float it becomes available you won't see it. |
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Posted: 6/1/2017 12:31:17 PM EDT
[#41]
I actually have tried it multiple times and have come damn close, but I don't want to post if its greater than 1 moa. I've had a few groups that were sub-moa with my AUG but I'll always have two or so that throw it off. End up being 1.15 or 1.25 MOA average. I was going to try to work up a load but honestly that crap with certain people faking the challenge left a bad taste in my mouth. I may still end up trying it again though.
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Posted: 6/1/2017 9:48:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Don't worry if you aren't under 1moa, just post 'em up anyways we all want to see what worked for you! Even getting close is pretty great.
Yeah the fakes suck, but they aren't too prevalent. |
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Posted: 6/1/2017 11:48:24 PM EDT
[#43]
I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that this is a designated safe-space for everyone here to post their bullpups groups, no matter how big or small, and for rational technical and non-judgemental discussion about them. And to encourage everyone to post theirs.
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Posted: 6/2/2017 1:01:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that this is a designated safe-space for everyone here to post their bullpups groups, no matter how big or small, and for rational technical and non-judgemental discussion about them. And to encourage everyone to post theirs. 
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Posted: 6/2/2017 11:35:21 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that this is a designated safe-space for everyone here to post their bullpups groups, no matter how big or small, and for rational technical and non-judgemental discussion about them. And to encourage everyone to post theirs. I'll see what I can do next time I go out. |
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Posted: 6/5/2017 5:47:22 PM EDT
[#46]
I have a pretty good shooting MSAR I will give it a go with next time I get a chance.
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Posted: 6/5/2017 11:03:46 PM EDT
[#47]
I'll try with my Tavor if my job can pay me enough to get ammo to go to the range... I'd like to give it a shot. I can get 1 moa or slightly below, but IDK if I can average it. It seems to hover right around 1.1-1.25. It's so difficult to make an average of 1 moa.
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