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Posted: 4/18/2017 12:27:31 PM EDT
TFB just posted this report on the new Thales F90 Export.



I personally hope we get this version in the US - I like the STANAG mag compatibility, ergos/controls, and more compact buttstock.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 12:40:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vmpglenn:
TFB just posted this report on the new Thales F90 Export.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/f-90-export-660x439.jpg

I personally hope we get this version in the US - I like the STANAG mag compatibility, ergos/controls, and more compact buttstock.
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I like that they were able to do what Steyr couldn't, and do an AUG rifle with NATO mags that has LRBHO.  Also looks like X95 style mag release.

But is it just a me, or does it look like it has a stupidly long LOP for some reason?  Is it just the trimmer buttstock throwing things out of aesthetic balance?l (vs. a Tavor or regular AUG)?
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 12:40:42 PM EDT
Pics were posted a few weeks back. I hope we get the original.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 1:56:25 PM EDT
but dem screws...

I would guess this is the version we are getting, AR compatible mags and cheaper stock assembly method.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 2:04:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vmpglenn:
TFB just posted this report on the new Thales F90 Export.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/f-90-export-660x439.jpg

I personally hope we get this version in the US - I like the STANAG mag compatibility, ergos/controls, and more compact buttstock.
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dude what's up with that trigger? Cutting a tree with one soon?
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 2:08:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Seven-Shooter:
I like that they were able to do what Steyr couldn't, and do an AUG rifle with NATO mags that has LRBHO.  Also looks like X95 style mag release.

But is it just a me, or does it look like it has a stupidly long LOP for some reason?  Is it just the trimmer buttstock throwing things out of aesthetic balance?l (vs. a Tavor or regular AUG)?
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I think it's the change of the stock, plus the fact that this is a 14" SBR variant, that makes it look like the LOP is longer.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 4:31:45 PM EDT
This is the first AUG I have seen that actually looks pretty cool! Never been a fan of the traditional AUG style.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 8:43:25 PM EDT
It looks like the assault rifle from the first HALO game.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 8:54:50 PM EDT
I was borderline on wanting to get the original F90 but if they go with this frankengun version, no way
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 9:14:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2017 9:16:47 PM EDT by TNgan]
Better pictures of it here.

Suppose to be here in late 2017. Probably will be using component from both Australia and South Korea (a license producer of it).
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 9:59:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TNgan:
Better pictures of it here.

Suppose to be here in late 2017. Probably will be using component from both Australia and South Korea (a license producer of it).
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Is there confirmation on South Korea being a licensed producer? I hadn't seen anything to that effect.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 10:29:00 PM EDT
Yes some SK company has the license to produce for the export market. I believe this maybe has to do with bypassing the Australian export restriction.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 10:32:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:


Is there confirmation on South Korea being a licensed producer? I hadn't seen anything to that effect.
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Dasan is making the export version.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 12:06:45 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By vellnueve:


Dasan is making the export version.
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Thanks, using a search for "Dasan Thales F90" I found this:

"One interesting thing Dasan showed was Thales Australia’s F90 rifle. Dasan made a contract with Thales and will soon be manufacturing this rifle, under license, in Korea. Dasan will be suggesting this rifle to Korean military, which is now considering replacement of the K1 and K2 rifles, which have been used since the early to mid-1980s and many of them now need replacement. Unlike the K1/K2 rifles, which basically are made with 1970~80s design concept, the F90 is a modern bullpup, so in terms of modernity this clearly has an edge."
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=3685

Dasan is who makes the Lone Wolf barrels and slides, so this is a pretty interesting departure for them.

It will be interesting to see the price point this is marketed at. The F90 should already be a good bit cheaper to produce then the AUG (screw together construction over vibration weld, polymer skeletonized receiver vs cast aluminum, no quick change barrel.) When you factor in labor costs of South Korea (43% the cost of Austria in 2011)...I'm hoping some of these costs savings are passed onto the consumer.

If they are able to undercut the price of the Tavor, and offer improved accuracy over the X95, I can see them doing quite well.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 12:25:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:



It will be interesting to see the price point this is marketed at. The F90 should already be a good bit cheaper to produce then the AUG (screw together construction over vibration weld, polymer skeletonized receiver vs cast aluminum, no quick change barrel.) When you factor in labor costs of South Korea (43% the cost of Austria in 2011)...I'm hoping some of these costs savings are passed onto the consumer.

If they are able to undercut the price of the Tavor, and offer improved accuracy over the X95, I can see them doing quite well.
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Steyr didn't make the Australian AUGs, ADI/Thales did under license
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 1:37:11 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By mcantu:

Steyr didn't make the Australian AUGs, ADI/Thales did under license
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I know, I was talking about consumer price point here in the US vs the Austrian AUG, and why the F90 should hopefully be available at a lower price.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 2:09:20 AM EDT
Are there specs for this bullpup yet?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 2:19:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:


I know, I was talking about consumer price point here in the US vs the Austrian AUG, and why the F90 should hopefully be available at a lower price.
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I doubt the AUG costs all that much to make for Steyr.  The molds and tooling have been around for decades already and they only have about 30 employees
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 12:24:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By misc:
Are there specs for this bullpup yet?
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They're readily available, the F90 has been around a few years.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:50:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By vellnueve:
They're readily available, the F90 has been around a few years.
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Originally Posted By vellnueve:
Originally Posted By misc:
Are there specs for this bullpup yet?
They're readily available, the F90 has been around a few years.
Can't find it. What is the barrel twist?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:51:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By misc:

Can't find it. What is the barrel twist?
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F88 and F90 are 1:7
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 8:50:46 PM EDT
The only bullpup I am interested in. I hope it doesn't become vapor ware.
Link Posted: 4/25/2017 3:42:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mcantu:


I doubt the AUG costs all that much to make for Steyr.  The molds and tooling have been around for decades already and they only have about 30 employees
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A post-86 dealer sample Steyr AUG from Austria costs around $1200 a few years ago. Not sure what it is now.
Link Posted: 4/30/2017 3:35:16 AM EDT
I'm curious indeed. What is the barrel thread for US market?
Link Posted: 4/30/2017 3:52:16 AM EDT
Given that Thales appears to be licensing the design for export, and the nuances of importing military style rifles into the US...I've kind of got a bizarre hope that Thales teams up with a major US firearms firm to make them in the US.

A $1000 Ruger F90 would take over the market.
Link Posted: 4/30/2017 10:03:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Given that Thales appears to be licensing the design for export, and the nuances of importing military style rifles into the US...I've kind of got a bizarre hope that Thales teams up with a major US firearms firm to make them in the US.

A $1000 $2800 Ruger F90 would take over the market.
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Ruger?

Lol.
Link Posted: 5/1/2017 5:50:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By rb889:


Ruger?

Lol.
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Well Ruger is the US largest non-incompetent firearms manufacturer, and Ruger AR's are selling for around $500 these days. However S&W would also be another good choice, and possibly better from a Marketing standpoint.

Given that the majority of the F90 is injection molded plastic, and the R&D has already been done by Thales, I think Ruger and S&W are large enough to be able to sell them for $1000 and still make a tidy profit, while completely undercutting every other 'Pup and non-AR 5.56 rifle on the US market.

The chief impediment for new buyers of bullpups is the cost relative to AR15's, which are getting cheaper and cheaper by the day.

If we look at US companies who do high volume, affordable weapons that work, is interested in new designs, and has the ability to produce arms in large quantities - you basically have Ruger, and to a lesser extent, Smith and Wesson. Colt hates new anything, Remington is cancer, and the smaller AR manufacturers don't have nearly the scale.

If Thales's goal is to make money of licensing the F90 design abroad, they couldn't pick a better partner here in the US then Ruger or S&W.
Link Posted: 5/1/2017 7:27:06 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Given that Thales appears to be licensing the design for export, and the nuances of importing military style rifles into the US...I've kind of got a bizarre hope that Thales teams up with a major US firearms firm to make them in the US.

A $1000 Ruger F90 would take over the market.
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Dasan is making the export version, as noted previously.

Dasan OEMs a lot of products sold by various "manufacturers" in the US.
Link Posted: 5/1/2017 8:30:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By vellnueve:


Dasan is making the export version, as noted previously.

Dasan OEMs a lot of products sold by various "manufacturers" in the US.
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My only concern, and why I thought Thales would do well to pick Ruger / S&W for the US model, is the US regulations on importing 'military style' rifles into the country.

For example, AK's have to be imported in a 'sporting' configuration, then converted here back to their original configuration. Likewise, the AUG has to be imported in parts kits, with VLTOR then machining the receiver and FN making batches of barrels.

So Dasan might be able to make the majority of parts in Korea in their large and cost effective factory, but when it comes to the barrel and injection molded receiver, and then assembling the parts into a F90, they will need to set up another US factory to do that, or contract the work out.

This piecemeal construction and importation delays dramatically limits the economy of scale and increase weapon cost.

Let's say Thale's makes $100 per F90 in licensing fees (this is a complete guess, no idea what is appropriate licensing fee.) What will make them more money - having Dasan, a behind the scenes Korean parts manufacturer import and batch assemble F90's and then set up a marketing department to try and get the word out - or have one of the US's largest, publicly traded firearms companies produce the design and funnel it into their existing, massive marketing and distribution channels?
Link Posted: 5/1/2017 10:08:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Well Ruger is the US largest non-incompetent firearms manufacturer, and Ruger AR's are selling for around $500 these days. However S&W would also be another good choice, and possibly better from a Marketing standpoint.

Given that the majority of the F90 is injection molded plastic, and the R&D has already been done by Thales, I think Ruger and S&W are large enough to be able to sell them for $1000 and still make a tidy profit, while completely undercutting every other 'Pup and non-AR 5.56 rifle on the US market.

The chief impediment for new buyers of bullpups is the cost relative to AR15's, which are getting cheaper and cheaper by the day.

If we look at US companies who do high volume, affordable weapons that work, is interested in new designs, and has the ability to produce arms in large quantities - you basically have Ruger, and to a lesser extent, Smith and Wesson. Colt hates new anything, Remington is cancer, and the smaller AR manufacturers don't have nearly the scale.

If Thales's goal is to make money of licensing the F90 design abroad, they couldn't pick a better partner here in the US then Ruger or S&W.
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Originally Posted By rb889:


Ruger?

Lol.
Well Ruger is the US largest non-incompetent firearms manufacturer, and Ruger AR's are selling for around $500 these days. However S&W would also be another good choice, and possibly better from a Marketing standpoint.

Given that the majority of the F90 is injection molded plastic, and the R&D has already been done by Thales, I think Ruger and S&W are large enough to be able to sell them for $1000 and still make a tidy profit, while completely undercutting every other 'Pup and non-AR 5.56 rifle on the US market.

The chief impediment for new buyers of bullpups is the cost relative to AR15's, which are getting cheaper and cheaper by the day.

If we look at US companies who do high volume, affordable weapons that work, is interested in new designs, and has the ability to produce arms in large quantities - you basically have Ruger, and to a lesser extent, Smith and Wesson. Colt hates new anything, Remington is cancer, and the smaller AR manufacturers don't have nearly the scale.

If Thales's goal is to make money of licensing the F90 design abroad, they couldn't pick a better partner here in the US then Ruger or S&W.
There is no way in hell Ruger or S&W could possibly offer the F90, or any bullpup rifle, for under $1500 MSRP. Street price would be no less than $1200, and that's if they manage to make it cheaply without fucking it up somewhere along the line.

The tooling investment would be a huge undertaking, considering it's a relatively unknown rifle(No one knows what the F90 is, though the Aug is more widely known) being built for a niche market. Even if the rifles can be produced very cheap, they'd spend at least two or three years just paying off the tooling. They won't count on high volume/low margins, they're not willing to take such a risk. They'd rather overcharge for it and make more money off the few sales they do get.

And even if they got the complete design and tooling specifications, I guarantee their BoD would demand that something stupid be done to the design. It always happens with bigger manufacturers.
Link Posted: 5/1/2017 10:49:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:


My only concern, and why I thought Thales would do well to pick Ruger / S&W for the US model, is the US regulations on importing 'military style' rifles into the country.

For example, AK's have to be imported in a 'sporting' configuration, then converted here back to their original configuration. Likewise, the AUG has to be imported in parts kits, with VLTOR then machining the receiver and FN making batches of barrels.

So Dasan might be able to make the majority of parts in Korea in their large and cost effective factory, but when it comes to the barrel and injection molded receiver, and then assembling the parts into a F90, they will need to set up another US factory to do that, or contract the work out.

This piecemeal construction and importation delays dramatically limits the economy of scale and increase weapon cost.

Let's say Thale's makes $100 per F90 in licensing fees (this is a complete guess, no idea what is appropriate licensing fee.) What will make them more money - having Dasan, a behind the scenes Korean parts manufacturer import and batch assemble F90's and then set up a marketing department to try and get the word out - or have one of the US's largest, publicly traded firearms companies produce the design and funnel it into their existing, massive marketing and distribution channels?
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Dasan already has a plant in the US.
Link Posted: 5/1/2017 10:54:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rb889:


There is no way in hell Ruger or S&W could possibly offer the F90, or any bullpup rifle, for under $1500 MSRP. Street price would be no less than $1200, and that's if they manage to make it cheaply without fucking it up somewhere along the line.

The tooling investment would be a huge undertaking, considering it's a relatively unknown rifle(No one knows what the F90 is, though the Aug is more widely known) being built for a niche market. Even if the rifles can be produced very cheap, they'd spend at least two or three years just paying off the tooling. They won't count on high volume/low margins, they're not willing to take such a risk. They'd rather overcharge for it and make more money off the few sales they do get.

And even if they got the complete design and tooling specifications, I guarantee their BoD would demand that something stupid be done to the design. It always happens with bigger manufacturers.
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Unfortunately I think I am inclined to agree with basically everything you have said here. Especially the second to last sentence.
Link Posted: 5/1/2017 10:57:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rb889:


There is no way in hell Ruger or S&W could possibly offer the F90, or any bullpup rifle, for under $1500 MSRP. Street price would be no less than $1200, and that's if they manage to make it cheaply without fucking it up somewhere along the line.

The tooling investment would be a huge undertaking, considering it's a relatively unknown rifle(No one knows what the F90 is, though the Aug is more widely known) being built for a niche market. Even if the rifles can be produced very cheap, they'd spend at least two or three years just paying off the tooling. They won't count on high volume/low margins, they're not willing to take such a risk. They'd rather overcharge for it and make more money off the few sales they do get.

And even if they got the complete design and tooling specifications, I guarantee their BoD would demand that something stupid be done to the design. It always happens with bigger manufacturers.
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The Kel Tec RDB is available on Gunbroker right now for around $1000-$1100, and the RDB uses a lot more metal parts, and is made by a private, smaller company.

The AUG is very simple rifle, and the F90 is a simplified AUG. It uses screw together construction of a clamshell stock, the trigger pack is all plastic, the receiver is plastic. Once the mold tooling is cut, the majority of the rifles parts are very cheap to produce. Were talking a barrel, two pic rails, a bolt assembly, and a gas piston.

The Tavor is the best selling non-AR 5.56 rifle in the US, with over 50,000 sold @ $1600 each. The F90 Export is a better, lighter Tavor X95 that is cheaper to produce (less metal parts.) Meanwhile, the US market is oversaturated with AR15's, with too many manufacturers competing for dwindling sales now that the Hillbeast has been vanquished and we're making america great again.

If Thales teamed up with Ruger or S&W and took an aggressive price structure with the F90, they could sell well over 50,000 F90's, and likely a good bit more as the bullpup concept continues to grow in the US.

The two factors holding back the bullpup design in the US are a)unperfected design of the bullpup b) high cost of bullpups relative to AR's. The F90 design has largely solved problem A, and if they were sold for around $1,000, problem B would be solved as well. The result would be major sales.
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