User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 9:34:02 AM EDT
I was attempting to do my first YouTube video on the disassembly of the IWI Tavor and ran into an issue with my MI extended keymod handguard.
So much so that it is now unless and the original handguard is now back on the rifle. The video is crap as far as being my first video, but please watch all in there entirety to understand what happened and what I went through and what MI needs to address. There are 3 parts to the video. 1st Video starts with my disassembly and starting around 5min all the way to 26min was me battling the handguard to the death. 2nd video was a quick update to address questions 3rd video was after I got the MI handguard off This is not a hate thread, more of a informational thread. I had MI rails on all my ARs so they are quality. There are just some issues that need fixed. Feel free to rag on me, tell me I did something wrong, ect. Ect. I wanted to show the whole thing raw and unedited. Without further ado. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 10:54:29 AM EDT
[#1]
Their FDE looks not good next to the Tavor fde
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 10:58:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Any local industrial supply place would have flat head socket cap screws, they aren't uncommon. If you get stuck screws where you can't apply heat in the future instead of doing that get one of these.
http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2905-8-Inch-Manual-7-Piece/dp/B000NPPATS/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1463669507&sr=1-1&keywords=impact+screwdriver How exactly did MI fail? I jumped to the end and I saw a fastener fail, a high quality american made one at that. ETA: Wow, just finished the last video. So, you destroyed the rail because you don't know how to remove a stripped screw? Sorry, all that doesn't add up to a MI fail that would be user error. I bet MI would send you a new rail if you bothered to contact them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 11:18:02 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any local industrial supply place would have flat head socket cap screws, they aren't uncommon. If you get stuck screws where you can't apply heat in the future instead of doing that get one of these. http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2905-8-Inch-Manual-7-Piece/dp/B000NPPATS/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1463669507&sr=1-1&keywords=impact+screwdriver How exactly did MI fail? I jumped to the end and I saw a fastener fail, a high quality american made one at that. ETA: Wow, just finished the last video. So, you destroyed the rail because you don't know how to remove a stripped screw? Sorry, all that doesn't add up to a MI fail that would be user error. I bet MI would send you a new rail if you bothered to contact them. So I need to go buy different screws and replace the new screws the handguard came with? Makes sense. The handguard screw would not come out, which in turn caused me to be unable to disassemble the Tavor to clean it. You saw a high quality fastner fail, an issue MI should be made aware of right? Or just forget it and not make them aware of the issue? The screw was strip and I wasn't going to drill into the screw to remove it since I didn't want to drill to far and hit the barrel. I also didn't have a small enough screw extractor and wasn't going to drive 45 min to go get one to be honest, and I shouldn't have too. The rail bent in my attempt to take it off, I cut the screw, the handguard bent while removing the two pieces screwed together. You saw the force I used. Very minimal amount of force and it bent. That's an MI issue not a user error. MI has been contacted, but that don't stop me from posting my issues to show other Tavor owners issues I have had with the MI rail. I'm free to show my opinions and concerns right? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 11:43:54 AM EDT
[#4]
I'm pretty sure that screw could have been removed without dorking up the handguard.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:02:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I need to go buy different screws and replace the new screws the handguard came with? Makes sense. You complained about availability and MI being the only source The handguard screw would not come out, which in turn caused me to be unable to disassemble the Tavor to clean it. You saw a high quality fastner fail, an issue MI should be made aware of right? Or just forget it and not make them aware of the issue? Why not call them first and see what they recommend? The screw was strip and I wasn't going to drill into the screw to remove it since I didn't want to drill to far and hit the barrel. I also didn't have a small enough screw extractor and wasn't going to drive 45 min to go get one to be honest, and I shouldn't have too. Shit happens, it's not MI's fault you decided to destroy your handguard just because you were impatient. The rail bent in my attempt to take it off, I cut the screw, the handguard bent while removing the two pieces screwed together. You saw the force I used. Very minimal amount of force and it bent. That's an MI issue not a user error. Aluminum is soft, any handguard of that design would bend with minimal force. MI has been contacted, but that don't stop me from posting my issues to show other Tavor owners issues I have had with the MI rail. I'm free to show my opinions and concerns right? Of course, and we're free to share our opinions that you ruined a rail that could have easily been saved. That part isn't on MI. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Any local industrial supply place would have flat head socket cap screws, they aren't uncommon. If you get stuck screws where you can't apply heat in the future instead of doing that get one of these. http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2905-8-Inch-Manual-7-Piece/dp/B000NPPATS/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1463669507&sr=1-1&keywords=impact+screwdriver How exactly did MI fail? I jumped to the end and I saw a fastener fail, a high quality american made one at that. ETA: Wow, just finished the last video. So, you destroyed the rail because you don't know how to remove a stripped screw? Sorry, all that doesn't add up to a MI fail that would be user error. I bet MI would send you a new rail if you bothered to contact them. So I need to go buy different screws and replace the new screws the handguard came with? Makes sense. You complained about availability and MI being the only source The handguard screw would not come out, which in turn caused me to be unable to disassemble the Tavor to clean it. You saw a high quality fastner fail, an issue MI should be made aware of right? Or just forget it and not make them aware of the issue? Why not call them first and see what they recommend? The screw was strip and I wasn't going to drill into the screw to remove it since I didn't want to drill to far and hit the barrel. I also didn't have a small enough screw extractor and wasn't going to drive 45 min to go get one to be honest, and I shouldn't have too. Shit happens, it's not MI's fault you decided to destroy your handguard just because you were impatient. The rail bent in my attempt to take it off, I cut the screw, the handguard bent while removing the two pieces screwed together. You saw the force I used. Very minimal amount of force and it bent. That's an MI issue not a user error. Aluminum is soft, any handguard of that design would bend with minimal force. MI has been contacted, but that don't stop me from posting my issues to show other Tavor owners issues I have had with the MI rail. I'm free to show my opinions and concerns right? Of course, and we're free to share our opinions that you ruined a rail that could have easily been saved. That part isn't on MI. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:21:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any local industrial supply place would have flat head socket cap screws, they aren't uncommon. If you get stuck screws where you can't apply heat in the future instead of doing that get one of these. http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2905-8-Inch-Manual-7-Piece/dp/B000NPPATS/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1463669507&sr=1-1&keywords=impact+screwdriver How exactly did MI fail? I jumped to the end and I saw a fastener fail, a high quality american made one at that. ETA: Wow, just finished the last video. So, you destroyed the rail because you don't know how to remove a stripped screw? Sorry, all that doesn't add up to a MI fail that would be user error. I bet MI would send you a new rail if you bothered to contact them. So I need to go buy different screws and replace the new screws the handguard came with? Makes sense. You complained about availability and MI being the only source The handguard screw would not come out, which in turn caused me to be unable to disassemble the Tavor to clean it. You saw a high quality fastner fail, an issue MI should be made aware of right? Or just forget it and not make them aware of the issue? Why not call them first and see what they recommend? The screw was strip and I wasn't going to drill into the screw to remove it since I didn't want to drill to far and hit the barrel. I also didn't have a small enough screw extractor and wasn't going to drive 45 min to go get one to be honest, and I shouldn't have too. Shit happens, it's not MI's fault you decided to destroy your handguard just because you were impatient. The rail bent in my attempt to take it off, I cut the screw, the handguard bent while removing the two pieces screwed together. You saw the force I used. Very minimal amount of force and it bent. That's an MI issue not a user error. Aluminum is soft, any handguard of that design would bend with minimal force. MI has been contacted, but that don't stop me from posting my issues to show other Tavor owners issues I have had with the MI rail. I'm free to show my opinions and concerns right? Of course, and we're free to share our opinions that you ruined a rail that could have easily been saved. That part isn't on MI. I see what your getting at. I appreciate the link in your first post, although it wouldn't of help in any way in this case. So you think it makes sense for a company to make a product such as a handguard, that gets taken on and off many times throught the firearms life, on a firearm and supply hardware that cannot be purchased anywhere and the only source to get the screws is MI? Destroy my handguard because I was impatient, ok. If tapping on the screw with a bit caused the handguard to bend and warp is my fault and not a quality issue, you and me have different ideas of quality. I did what I had to do to make my rifle safe, functional and clean because a product failed. How is that part not on MI? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:24:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see what your getting at. I appreciate the link in your first post, although it wouldn't of help in any way in this case. So you think it makes sense for a company to make a product such as a handguard, that gets taken on and off many times throught the firearms life, on a firearm and supply hardware that cannot be purchased anywhere and the only source to get the screws is MI? Destroy my handguard because I was impatient, ok. If tapping on the screw with a bit caused the handguard to bend and warp is my fault and not a quality issue, you and me have different ideas of quality. I did what I had to do to make my rifle safe, functional and clean because a product failed. How is that part not on MI? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any local industrial supply place would have flat head socket cap screws, they aren't uncommon. If you get stuck screws where you can't apply heat in the future instead of doing that get one of these. http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2905-8-Inch-Manual-7-Piece/dp/B000NPPATS/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1463669507&sr=1-1&keywords=impact+screwdriver How exactly did MI fail? I jumped to the end and I saw a fastener fail, a high quality american made one at that. ETA: Wow, just finished the last video. So, you destroyed the rail because you don't know how to remove a stripped screw? Sorry, all that doesn't add up to a MI fail that would be user error. I bet MI would send you a new rail if you bothered to contact them. So I need to go buy different screws and replace the new screws the handguard came with? Makes sense. You complained about availability and MI being the only source The handguard screw would not come out, which in turn caused me to be unable to disassemble the Tavor to clean it. You saw a high quality fastner fail, an issue MI should be made aware of right? Or just forget it and not make them aware of the issue? Why not call them first and see what they recommend? The screw was strip and I wasn't going to drill into the screw to remove it since I didn't want to drill to far and hit the barrel. I also didn't have a small enough screw extractor and wasn't going to drive 45 min to go get one to be honest, and I shouldn't have too. Shit happens, it's not MI's fault you decided to destroy your handguard just because you were impatient. The rail bent in my attempt to take it off, I cut the screw, the handguard bent while removing the two pieces screwed together. You saw the force I used. Very minimal amount of force and it bent. That's an MI issue not a user error. Aluminum is soft, any handguard of that design would bend with minimal force. MI has been contacted, but that don't stop me from posting my issues to show other Tavor owners issues I have had with the MI rail. I'm free to show my opinions and concerns right? Of course, and we're free to share our opinions that you ruined a rail that could have easily been saved. That part isn't on MI. I see what your getting at. I appreciate the link in your first post, although it wouldn't of help in any way in this case. So you think it makes sense for a company to make a product such as a handguard, that gets taken on and off many times throught the firearms life, on a firearm and supply hardware that cannot be purchased anywhere and the only source to get the screws is MI? Destroy my handguard because I was impatient, ok. If tapping on the screw with a bit caused the handguard to bend and warp is my fault and not a quality issue, you and me have different ideas of quality. I did what I had to do to make my rifle safe, functional and clean because a product failed. How is that part not on MI? This reminds me of sparks556 post about his MI handguard breaking apart when dropped. I can see how that much damage can happen now, just tapping a screw with a bit caused the handguard to bent, good thing I didn't drop it and have the handguard break in half and damage my rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:30:59 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm not claiming MI is blameless for the screw sticking but who installed the handguard? Did you use a torque wrench and was there any thread locker used? When you painted the gun did you mask off the screw holes or chase them with a tap? Aluminum can stretch and gall easily. These are all things that could go wrong in a case like this. Perhaps MI should start using pressed in steel inserts but without knowing what you did that may have lead to this nobody can answer that.
This is more about getting the whole story out there not ragging on you. BTW earlier I was saying that screw looks to be a common one which can be purchased at a local industrial supply. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:34:00 PM EDT
[#9]
Started getting flustered once you couldn't find the correct bit. All down hill from there...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:37:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Started getting flustered once you couldn't find the correct bit. All down hill from there... There wasn't a correct bit in that whole case of bits. Two of every single bit tip to cover every screw top made. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:41:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not claiming MI is blameless for the screw sticking but who installed the handguard? Did you use a torque wrench and was there any thread locker used? When you painted the gun did you mask off the screw holes or chase them with a tap? Aluminum can stretch and gall easily. These are all things that could go wrong in a case like this. Perhaps MI should start using pressed in steel inserts but without knowing what you did that may have lead to this nobody can answer that. This is more about getting the whole story out there not ragging on you. BTW earlier I was saying that screw looks to be a common one which can be purchased at a local industrial supply. I installed the handguard. I used blue thread locker and hand tightened. The screws were not masked off prior to painting, but the hand guard has been taken off since painting so the paint sticking wasn't an issue. I brought a screw to a couple hardware stores before contacting MI after the handguard showed up missing screws. Both didn't have a screw nearly that small. These screws are tiny and the hex hole is about the size of a sharpened lead pencil tip, small. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:44:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There wasn't a correct bit in that whole case of bits. Two of every single bit tip to cover every screw top made. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Started getting flustered once you couldn't find the correct bit. All down hill from there... There wasn't a correct bit in that whole case of bits. Two of every single bit tip to cover every screw top made. So that might have been a good point to take a break. Use the correct tool then continue. I understand why you're upset but you could have salvaged it with a level head and clear thought. You would have just needed to drill the head off, not the entire screw. You wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to the barrel. After that you could have ordered new screws that use a larger/stronger bit. Those did look pretty wimpy. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:44:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Started getting flustered once you couldn't find the correct bit. All down hill from there... It was frustrating. Shit happens, but 1 screw stopping me from disassembling my rifle then going through a case of every conceivable bit and nothing matched. I should of even been in that position, and even since I was it should of been an easy fix. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:47:07 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So that might have been a good point to take a break. Use the correct tool then continue. I understand why you're upset but you could have salvaged it with a level head and clear thought. You would have just needed to drill the head off, not the entire screw. You wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to the barrel. After that you could have ordered new screws that use a larger/stronger bit. Those did look pretty wimpy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Started getting flustered once you couldn't find the correct bit. All down hill from there... There wasn't a correct bit in that whole case of bits. Two of every single bit tip to cover every screw top made. So that might have been a good point to take a break. Use the correct tool then continue. I understand why you're upset but you could have salvaged it with a level head and clear thought. You would have just needed to drill the head off, not the entire screw. You wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to the barrel. After that you could have ordered new screws that use a larger/stronger bit. Those did look pretty wimpy. I contemplated drilling it out, but the screws are resesed into the handguard and if I wanted to drill the head off it would of been sliding all over the place. To many keymod holes to slide into at that location. But good points |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:52:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I contemplated drilling it out, but the screws are resesed into the handguard and if I wanted to drill the head off it would of been sliding all over the place. To many keymod holes to slide into at that location. But good points Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Started getting flustered once you couldn't find the correct bit. All down hill from there... There wasn't a correct bit in that whole case of bits. Two of every single bit tip to cover every screw top made. So that might have been a good point to take a break. Use the correct tool then continue. I understand why you're upset but you could have salvaged it with a level head and clear thought. You would have just needed to drill the head off, not the entire screw. You wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to the barrel. After that you could have ordered new screws that use a larger/stronger bit. Those did look pretty wimpy. I contemplated drilling it out, but the screws are resesed into the handguard and if I wanted to drill the head off it would of been sliding all over the place. To many keymod holes to slide into at that location. But good points With the head off there wouldn't have been enough threads to get some vice grips on there? At least if it was off you could have more easily heated it up. Honestly you probably could have heated it up right where it was on the rifle. It really doesn't take much. Just a small butane torch. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 12:59:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Also you might have been able to take a small dremel cutting disk and cut a notch in screw head for a flat head screw driver.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 1:00:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the head off there wouldn't have been enough threads to get some vice grips on there? At least if it was off you could have more easily heated it up. Honestly you probably could have heated it up right where it was on the rifle. It really doesn't take much. Just a small butane torch. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Started getting flustered once you couldn't find the correct bit. All down hill from there... There wasn't a correct bit in that whole case of bits. Two of every single bit tip to cover every screw top made. So that might have been a good point to take a break. Use the correct tool then continue. I understand why you're upset but you could have salvaged it with a level head and clear thought. You would have just needed to drill the head off, not the entire screw. You wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to the barrel. After that you could have ordered new screws that use a larger/stronger bit. Those did look pretty wimpy. I contemplated drilling it out, but the screws are resesed into the handguard and if I wanted to drill the head off it would of been sliding all over the place. To many keymod holes to slide into at that location. But good points With the head off there wouldn't have been enough threads to get some vice grips on there? At least if it was off you could have more easily heated it up. Honestly you probably could have heated it up right where it was on the rifle. It really doesn't take much. Just a small butane torch. If I drilled the head off the screw, the threads were still resesed into the handguard into the threads that secure the screw. I thought about that as well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 1:02:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also you might have been able to take a small dremel cutting disk and cut a notch in screw head for a flat head screw driver. I would of been cutting into the handguard as well if I did that since the screws are all resesed into the hand handguard. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 1:04:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would of been cutting into the handguard as well if I did that since the screws are all resesed into the hand handguard. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Also you might have been able to take a small dremel cutting disk and cut a notch in screw head for a flat head screw driver. I would of been cutting into the handguard as well if I did that since the screws are all resesed into the hand handguard. Ok. Then could it have been drilled enough for an EZ out? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 1:08:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok. Then could it have been drilled enough for an EZ out? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Also you might have been able to take a small dremel cutting disk and cut a notch in screw head for a flat head screw driver. I would of been cutting into the handguard as well if I did that since the screws are all resesed into the hand handguard. Ok. Then could it have been drilled enough for an EZ out? Yeah, it could I would think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 6:48:16 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm just here waiting for the popcorn.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 8:24:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just here waiting for the popcorn. What are you expecting to happen? This isn't gd. Do you have anything to add? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 8:33:33 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm thoroughly entertained, what else would you like to know?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 8:45:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm thoroughly entertained, what else would you like to know? If your entertained, then I did my job. Thank you sir |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 9:38:15 PM EDT
[#25]
"Don't call me Shirley."
You screwed up, iasc, and it's not MI's fault. I've screwed stuff up in a similar way, breaking stuff to get it off because I was impatient, lazy, careless, lacking tools, and/or lacking expertise. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 10:01:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Don't call me Shirley."
You screwed up, iasc, and it's not MI's fault. I've screwed stuff up in a similar way, breaking stuff to get it off because I was impatient, lazy, careless, lacking tools, and/or lacking expertise. Yeah, I like to talk to myself lol. You live any you learn. I did manage to bend the handguard back into place and it fit on the rifle fine, doesn't matter though. The handguard is going in the trash and I'm sticking with the original handguard. The MI rail is weaker, more complicated and just plain annoying. That's why I test stuff out I guess, to find out what I do and don't like. Original Tavor Handguard : 1 MI extended Tavor Handguard : 0 |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/19/2016 10:06:56 PM EDT
[#27]
On second thought, I'm going to leave it on and just keep using my Tavor. Undoubtedly sooner or later the MI rail will break in half or bend until its more useless than it is now.
Maybe I'll torture test the MI Tavor rail and see how long it lasts while hitting it with a plastic toy hammer and a pillow cushion. I give it 2 days before it shatters. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
