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Posted: 9/16/2015 6:21:22 AM EDT
[#1]
I have never seen a reason for shooting at someone who doesn't know you're there. If they are a few hundred yds. away and going in a different direction I believe I'd let them keep going.
When I lived in WV (Greenbrier County) my go to rifle was my M1A with 4X12 scope on it. I used to practice at 300 and 600 yds. as lots of places you could shoot from one mountain to the next or one end of a ridge to the other. Where I live now the only place you can see farther than 100 yds. is out on a road/highway. My go to rifle is a SIG 556R, at the house. If I had to leave the house I'd grab the AR15 carbine. In a situation you describe, if it became long term and you survived it, you might find you'd need to salvage ammo, parts, magazines, etc. and the AR15 is more common than most when it comes to picking spare parts, magazines and extra ammo. I'd want a parkerized, or painted rifle with a chrome bore, bolt and bolt carrier. It's going to be wet, it may not get cleaned/lubed or protected from weather as it is now and rust prevention may be tougher the more unprotected parts the rifle contains. There wouldn't be any ambulances, rescue crews, med flights, hospitals, etc. and most people who get shot, or severely cut will either die quickly or from infection within a few days. No one wants to get shot now. In a situation such as you describe the death rates from violence will be much higher. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 7:24:58 AM EDT
[#2]
I think you've got it figured out. I would stick with your current AR for range, reliability, and knowledge of the system.
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Posted: 9/16/2015 9:14:51 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm a believer in the bullpup concept, and I believe that
bullpups will be the future for rifle design. The only issue is that it's hard to find a bullpup which can beat the AR in terms of accuracy out to 500meters or beyond. In fact it's hard to find very many 5.56 rifles in general which can beat the AR in this way. I've heard many people say that the AUG rivals or even exceeds the AR in this way, and I believe that may be true, but the only thing I'm hesitant about the AUG is the magazine release. Both the AR and Tavor have a better positioned mag release. Also, my state bans the AUG outright. Anyhow, my current choice is between the AR and Tavor. While I love the Tavor ergonomics, handling, reliability in general. The terrain I live in, and the distances I might expect to shoot at if necessary, seem to point to the AR. If that wasn't a factor, I would easily pick the Tavor due to it's many many advantages, unless anyone can convince me otherwise. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 9:41:14 AM EDT
[#4]
put the ACOG on the Tavor and see how it shoots at long range
I have a 20" barrel AUG that is 9" shorter than the M16A4 (with the same barrel length). It seems that a more compact weapon would be a good thing in the terrain you described |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 9:48:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
put the ACOG on the Tavor and see how it shoots at long range I would love to, unfortunately I have the IDF model, which has the Mepro M21 sight fixed to the barrel. I can't attach the ACOG. I believe there is a Mako MX3 magnifier for the Meprosight, but it's expensive and I'm not certain that it would still be able to compete with the AR in terms of range and accuracy. IF it could, then I might consider that option. I need to hear more range reports from folks who have one. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 10:02:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Honestly given the choice most Marines in the open country of AFG would still rather carry the shorter M4; it shorter length and ergonomics make it easier to carry
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Posted: 9/16/2015 10:06:37 AM EDT
[#7]
Get a 16" middy or 14.5" carbine, and get better ammo
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Posted: 9/16/2015 5:32:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm a believer in the bullpup concept, and I believe that bullpups will be the future for rifle design. The only issue is that it's hard to find a bullpup which can beat the AR in terms of accuracy out to 500meters or beyond. In fact it's hard to find very many 5.56 rifles in general which can beat the AR in this way. I've heard many people say that the AUG rivals or even exceeds the AR in this way, and I believe that may be true, but the only thing I'm hesitant about the AUG is the magazine release. Both the AR and Tavor have a better positioned mag release. Also, my state bans the AUG outright. Anyhow, my current choice is between the AR and Tavor. While I love the Tavor ergonomics, handling, reliability in general. The terrain I live in, and the distances I might expect to shoot at if necessary, seem to point to the AR. If that wasn't a factor, I would easily pick the Tavor due to it's many many advantages, unless anyone can convince me otherwise. I have had an AUG 16" and a 20" neither did as well as my AR's with the same ammo. I know that could be more ME than the gun...but still thats my experience on the matter. As far the Tavor vs an AR... i would go for the AR simply because its proven weapon and muscle memory and all that stuff. Plus I think a bayonet on the end of a 14.5 or 16' barrel would probably come in handy in a SHTF scenario. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 5:57:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honestly given the choice most Marines in the open country of AFG would still rather carry the shorter M4; it shorter length and ergonomics make it easier to carry I understand. When in Ramadi, we would have preferred M4s over the M16A4s we were issued, as they would be more maneuverable when being stacked up in some hallway when doing house clearing. At the same time, there were situations where we were taking shots with our rifles out to 4-500 meters or well beyond. I was never in the Ghan, and while carrying an M4 would be an enormous relief over the M16A4,l I was skilled with my M16, and liked that I could accurately engage forces at distance with it. I'm not so sure that an M4 would be able to reliably inflict casualties at 500 meters and beyond. I've witnessed a squad mate of mine dropping an insurgent out to 600 meters with an M16A4. Find me a bullpup or M4 that can do that, and I'll be convinced. |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 6:14:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand. When in Ramadi, we would have preferred M4s over the M16A4s we were issued, as they would be more maneuverable when being stacked up in some hallway when doing house clearing. At the same time, there were situations where we were taking shots with our rifles out to 4-500 meters or well beyond. I was never in the Ghan, and while carrying an M4 would be an enormous relief over the M16A4,l I was skilled with my M16, and liked that I could accurately engage forces at distance with it. I'm not so sure that an M4 would be able to reliably inflict casualties at 500 meters and beyond. I've witnessed a squad mate of mine dropping an insurgent out to 600 meters with an M16A4. Find me a bullpup or M4 that can do that, and I'll be convinced. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Honestly given the choice most Marines in the open country of AFG would still rather carry the shorter M4; it shorter length and ergonomics make it easier to carry I understand. When in Ramadi, we would have preferred M4s over the M16A4s we were issued, as they would be more maneuverable when being stacked up in some hallway when doing house clearing. At the same time, there were situations where we were taking shots with our rifles out to 4-500 meters or well beyond. I was never in the Ghan, and while carrying an M4 would be an enormous relief over the M16A4,l I was skilled with my M16, and liked that I could accurately engage forces at distance with it. I'm not so sure that an M4 would be able to reliably inflict casualties at 500 meters and beyond. I've witnessed a squad mate of mine dropping an insurgent out to 600 meters with an M16A4. Find me a bullpup or M4 that can do that, and I'll be convinced. Seriously, get better ammo. You aren't going to do much at 600 yards and m855. Get some mk262 and federal fusion |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 7:55:19 PM EDT
[#11]
I hit soup-can sized targets out past 400 hrs consistently with my Tavor. Ammo is 69 Gr. TMK Black Hills and scope is an Aimpoint Pro with a 4x magnifier. Plus my Tavor fits nicely in my backpack for those long carry walks
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Posted: 9/16/2015 9:52:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hit soup-can sized targets out past 400 hrs consistently with my Tavor. Ammo is 69 Gr. TMK Black Hills and scope is an Aimpoint Pro with a 4x magnifier. Plus my Tavor fits nicely in my backpack for those long carry walks Wow. This is the sort of response I was looking for. I'm guessing you mean 400 yards, lol. Soup can sized targets? Which version of the Tavor do you have? What is the farthest distance you have hit a target with this set up? |
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Posted: 9/16/2015 10:50:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Frostburg,
Choose the rifle you shoot the best. If it's the M-16A4 clone, choose it. If it's the Tavor, choose it. But in the end, you have to have confidence in your skills with that weapon as most of ARFcom will probably be dead or rounded up in a camp, and thus pretty much useless and unable to lend a paw to help you. ;-) I agree the poster who said if it was a SHTF scenario and the target was at an extended range, that it would be best to just let them go their way. If it's just you, or maybe you and a couple associates, you've got stealth and mobility on your side. You don't know what the other guy has on his side...he could be a scout for a larger marauder or government force, he could have a dozen buddies 50 meters behind him that you don't see, or he might be alone. If he has friends, they'll know you're there and that will bring a big ol' spotlight of attention to the area that you might not want. But in the end, it's all about skill and confidence; what are you most capable with and which one gives you the most confidence in your ability to use it to extend your will at a distance? |
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Posted: 9/17/2015 2:00:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Frostburg, Choose the rifle you shoot the best. If it's the M-16A4 clone, choose it. If it's the Tavor, choose it. But in the end, you have to have confidence in your skills with that weapon as most of ARFcom will probably be dead or rounded up in a camp, and thus pretty much useless and unable to lend a paw to help you. ;-) I agree the poster who said if it was a SHTF scenario and the target was at an extended range, that it would be best to just let them go their way. If it's just you, or maybe you and a couple associates, you've got stealth and mobility on your side. You don't know what the other guy has on his side...he could be a scout for a larger marauder or government force, he could have a dozen buddies 50 meters behind him that you don't see, or he might be alone. If he has friends, they'll know you're there and that will bring a big ol' spotlight of attention to the area that you might not want. But in the end, it's all about skill and confidence; what are you most capable with and which one gives you the most confidence in your ability to use it to extend your will at a distance? I agree 100%. I fully appreciate the need to avoid contact, and am well aware that any engagement could lead to a situation where I may have to deal with hostile unknowns. I would not want to engage, but in the event that I have no choice but to engage someone, I want to be able to use the local topography to my advantage, and that means shooting and scooting from distance. |
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Posted: 9/17/2015 3:17:39 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm a believer in the bullpup concept, and I believe that bullpups will be the future for rifle design. The only issue is that it's hard to find a bullpup which can beat the AR in terms of accuracy out to 500meters or beyond. In fact it's hard to find very many 5.56 rifles in general which can beat the AR in this way. I've heard many people say that the AUG rivals or even exceeds the AR in this way, and I believe that may be true, but the only thing I'm hesitant about the AUG is the magazine release. Both the AR and Tavor have a better positioned mag release. Also, my state bans the AUG outright. Anyhow, my current choice is between the AR and Tavor. While I love the Tavor ergonomics, handling, reliability in general. The terrain I live in, and the distances I might expect to shoot at if necessary, seem to point to the AR. If that wasn't a factor, I would easily pick the Tavor due to it's many many advantages, unless anyone can convince me otherwise. I just got an aug and there are vids of very fast mag changes achieved by hitting the release with the fresh mag. yes i changed the aimpoints mount around so the knob doseng impede the ch 
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Posted: 9/17/2015 4:25:54 AM EDT
[#16]
My experience fast tacticool mag changes go to shit when under pressure. I would imagine someone shooting at you would be a somewhat stressful situations. Practice a lot and keep it simple.
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Posted: 9/17/2015 6:54:00 AM EDT
[#17]
I hit soup-can sized targets out past 400 hrs yards consistently with my Tavor. 
-- Chuck |
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Posted: 9/17/2015 6:38:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course you can.
-- Chuck Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hit soup-can sized targets out past 400 hrs yards consistently with my Tavor.
-- Chuck Must be the family size cans ... 
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Posted: 9/17/2015 7:14:17 PM EDT
[#19]
I'd go with the AR. I have a idf tavor as well trigger is somewhere between meh and shit but I don't want to spend the money for a tavd or geiselle. Also the reticles on all the mepros are somewhat large and not meant for precision but fast target acquisition. I even have the magnifier that fits the idf version but I like my vcog better. Also when not outdoor in sunlight the reticle on the mepro seems fuzzy to me and you have the drown out problem with the mepros in certain conditions aka aiming into a bright area from a darker area. Also the tavor is a heavy little thing for what it is so it's not like it's smaller size helps you carry it. For those reasons mines limited to fun gun/home defense since that's where it's short oal shines.
If I'm doin the mental masturbation game of playing red dawn fantasies and yelling wolverine I'd use my 18" ar with a nib bcg and nib mega ambi reciever with a vcog. Not too long but less velocity loss than a 16" barrel. Plus it's SSAE trigger is vastly superior to the tavor and the weight difference between the two isn't much. Plus I really like 6x over the 3.5 I think of my magnifier on the tavor since even if you aren't stretching the guns legs with a long shot it can help with observing and IDing. The spare parts argument is silly to me if you are in enough fights long enough to break parts good chance you bite it in one given lack of emergency medicine plus would you be able to get a enemy combatants stuff safely post combat or make a hasty retreat? If you can and combat is so prevelant chances are your foes weapon is worn to poop too. Lastly if your gun breaks mid fight well you better be planning on leaving not calling a time out to crawl to a body disassemble your stuff and change parts ;). Given that I wouldn't let that factor in whatsoever in the thought exercise. Both are good guns though so pick which one you like better. Given your mil background you probably already have muscle memory on ar ergos too which is another reason I prefer mine to my tavor. |
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Posted: 9/17/2015 11:30:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd go with the AR. I have a idf tavor as well trigger is somewhere between meh and shit but I don't want to spend the money for a tavd or geiselle. Also the reticles on all the mepros are somewhat large and not meant for precision but fast target acquisition. I even have the magnifier that fits the idf version but I like my vcog better. Also when not outdoor in sunlight the reticle on the mepro seems fuzzy to me and you have the drown out problem with the mepros in certain conditions aka aiming into a bright area from a darker area. Also the tavor is a heavy little thing for what it is so it's not like it's smaller size helps you carry it. For those reasons mines limited to fun gun/home defense since that's where it's short oal shines. If I'm doin the mental masturbation game of playing red dawn fantasies and yelling wolverine I'd use my 18" ar with a nib bcg and nib mega ambi reciever with a vcog. Not too long but less velocity loss than a 16" barrel. Plus it's SSAE trigger is vastly superior to the tavor and the weight difference between the two isn't much. Plus I really like 6x over the 3.5 I think of my magnifier on the tavor since even if you aren't stretching the guns legs with a long shot it can help with observing and IDing. The spare parts argument is silly to me if you are in enough fights long enough to break parts good chance you bite it in one given lack of emergency medicine plus would you be able to get a enemy combatants stuff safely post combat or make a hasty retreat? If you can and combat is so prevelant chances are your foes weapon is worn to poop too. Lastly if your gun breaks mid fight well you better be planning on leaving not calling a time out to crawl to a body disassemble your stuff and change parts ;). Given that I wouldn't let that factor in whatsoever in the thought exercise. Both are good guns though so pick which one you like better. Given your mil background you probably already have muscle memory on ar ergos too which is another reason I prefer mine to my tavor. Yeah, I was pretty much settling on the AR, given my previous experience and the terrain/distance I would find myself shooting in. I was just wondering if someone could convince me otherwise. By the way, when you say you have the Tavor magnifier, you mean the Mepro MX3 magnifier, right? How is that? I was thinking about getting one for my Tavor. |
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Posted: 9/18/2015 3:56:23 AM EDT
[#21]
I think you have too many variables in a weapon and its implementation to arrive at s specific, logical decision for ONE
SHTF rifle Keep the Tavor with a nice 1 x 4 on top and get a decent bolt gun in 7,62 for distance. |
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Posted: 9/18/2015 4:55:26 AM EDT
[#22]
A4 all day, and twice on Sunday
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Posted: 9/18/2015 9:40:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I was pretty much settling on the AR, given my previous experience and the terrain/distance I would find myself shooting in. I was just wondering if someone could convince me otherwise. By the way, when you say you have the Tavor magnifier, you mean the Mepro MX3 magnifier, right? How is that? I was thinking about getting one for my Tavor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd go with the AR. I have a idf tavor as well trigger is somewhere between meh and shit but I don't want to spend the money for a tavd or geiselle. Also the reticles on all the mepros are somewhat large and not meant for precision but fast target acquisition. I even have the magnifier that fits the idf version but I like my vcog better. Also when not outdoor in sunlight the reticle on the mepro seems fuzzy to me and you have the drown out problem with the mepros in certain conditions aka aiming into a bright area from a darker area. Also the tavor is a heavy little thing for what it is so it's not like it's smaller size helps you carry it. For those reasons mines limited to fun gun/home defense since that's where it's short oal shines. If I'm doin the mental masturbation game of playing red dawn fantasies and yelling wolverine I'd use my 18" ar with a nib bcg and nib mega ambi reciever with a vcog. Not too long but less velocity loss than a 16" barrel. Plus it's SSAE trigger is vastly superior to the tavor and the weight difference between the two isn't much. Plus I really like 6x over the 3.5 I think of my magnifier on the tavor since even if you aren't stretching the guns legs with a long shot it can help with observing and IDing. The spare parts argument is silly to me if you are in enough fights long enough to break parts good chance you bite it in one given lack of emergency medicine plus would you be able to get a enemy combatants stuff safely post combat or make a hasty retreat? If you can and combat is so prevelant chances are your foes weapon is worn to poop too. Lastly if your gun breaks mid fight well you better be planning on leaving not calling a time out to crawl to a body disassemble your stuff and change parts ;). Given that I wouldn't let that factor in whatsoever in the thought exercise. Both are good guns though so pick which one you like better. Given your mil background you probably already have muscle memory on ar ergos too which is another reason I prefer mine to my tavor. Yeah, I was pretty much settling on the AR, given my previous experience and the terrain/distance I would find myself shooting in. I was just wondering if someone could convince me otherwise. By the way, when you say you have the Tavor magnifier, you mean the Mepro MX3 magnifier, right? How is that? I was thinking about getting one for my Tavor. Yup thats the one. It's nice in that it keeps the IDF issued gear vibe while making the rifle more versatile. But to be honest I don't know if I would buy it again it is a lot of $$$ for only 3x which isn't the greatest improvement in the world. If you are going to the bullpup shoot tomorrow you can try it out as I'll have mine with me. If not since you are in MD maybe we could meet up do a range session and you could give it a whirl sometime. If you do order one expect it to be at least a month for mako to get it to your door. |
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Posted: 9/18/2015 1:36:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow. This is the sort of response I was looking for. I'm guessing you mean 400 yards, lol. Soup can sized targets? Which version of the Tavor do you have? What is the farthest distance you have hit a target with this set up? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I hit soup-can sized targets out past 400 hrs consistently with my Tavor. Ammo is 69 Gr. TMK Black Hills and scope is an Aimpoint Pro with a 4x magnifier. Plus my Tavor fits nicely in my backpack for those long carry walks Wow. This is the sort of response I was looking for. I'm guessing you mean 400 yards, lol. Soup can sized targets? Which version of the Tavor do you have? What is the farthest distance you have hit a target with this set up? Thanks for the spell-check, hrs to yds is quite an oops. Yup, 400 yds. I group within 2.5-3" so "soup can size" is a rough visual. It is the 16" Tavor with a folding bi-pod attached to my MI hand guard, prone position. Winds are generally calm to 10-15 mph cross at my range here in GA. Granted, I can hit the same with my 16" Spikes Tactical with good match ammo, which is key for shooting at this range. I do not always go with Black Hills, that was the recent stuff I used at that range. At 500 I do drop off a bit but from 300-400 I am very confident with my Tavor. The Geissele is a help for my trigger control. |
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Posted: 9/18/2015 5:52:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the spell-check, hrs to yds is quite an oops. Yup, 400 yds. I group within 2.5-3" so "soup can size" is a rough visual. It is the 16" Tavor with a folding bi-pod attached to my MI hand guard, prone position. Winds are generally calm to 10-15 mph cross at my range here in GA. Granted, I can hit the same with my 16" Spikes Tactical with good match ammo, which is key for shooting at this range. I do not always go with Black Hills, that was the recent stuff I used at that range. At 500 I do drop off a bit but from 300-400 I am very confident with my Tavor. The Geissele is a help for my trigger control. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I hit soup-can sized targets out past 400 hrs consistently with my Tavor. Ammo is 69 Gr. TMK Black Hills and scope is an Aimpoint Pro with a 4x magnifier. Plus my Tavor fits nicely in my backpack for those long carry walks Wow. This is the sort of response I was looking for. I'm guessing you mean 400 yards, lol. Soup can sized targets? Which version of the Tavor do you have? What is the farthest distance you have hit a target with this set up? Thanks for the spell-check, hrs to yds is quite an oops. Yup, 400 yds. I group within 2.5-3" so "soup can size" is a rough visual. It is the 16" Tavor with a folding bi-pod attached to my MI hand guard, prone position. Winds are generally calm to 10-15 mph cross at my range here in GA. Granted, I can hit the same with my 16" Spikes Tactical with good match ammo, which is key for shooting at this range. I do not always go with Black Hills, that was the recent stuff I used at that range. At 500 I do drop off a bit but from 300-400 I am very confident with my Tavor. The Geissele is a help for my trigger control. I'm impressed. A soup can is relatively small; I wonder how far you can shoot when shooting at bad guy size targets. I was thinking about a new trigger pack. I currently have the OEM one. |
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Posted: 9/18/2015 10:15:12 PM EDT
[#26]
While you can see targets at a great distance from a ridge line, what about the immediate vacinity? If the mountains you are talking about are anything like what's here in Virginia (and I am pretty sure they are) then the entire mountainside will be covered by dense woods. Most of the time in the woods of the eastern US you will see no more than 100yards in any direction, and I think thats being generous. In a SHTF scenario, I would think escape and evasion would take precedent over being able to take 400 yard shots (which btw i think your Tavor is capable of anyway). I certainly wouldn't want to drag a fullsize 20" AR through the tangled underbrush so common in this part of the country. My opinion would be switch out the meprolight on the tavor with an acog (3x, 4x, or even 1.5x - doesnt matter they are all great and should allow you to balance target acquisition with effective range) and call it good.
Also fwiw i once had a m16a4 clone myself and parted it out in favor of more compact options. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 1:00:03 AM EDT
[#27]
Weight is important. My opinion as a tavor owner is it is a heavy weapon. A descent optic, a full mag and an integrated light and we are near or around 13 lbs.
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Posted: 9/19/2015 7:29:12 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weight is important. My opinion as a tavor owner is it is a heavy weapon. A descent optic, a full mag and an integrated light and we are near or around 13 lbs. a 16" Tavor w/o optic weighs 1lb less than an M16A4 |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 11:33:03 AM EDT
[#29]
I would consider durability in your case as well. The TAV wins big here.
The achilles heel of the M4 is the junction of the buffer tube to the lower, and the buffer tube itself. If you drop an M4 onto the buttstock from any appreciable height, there's a good chance the buffer tube could take a hit, or it could stress and bend at that junction. The M16 with an A2 stock does not have this liability to the same degree. e.g. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=574580 The TAV also sports less small parts liable to breakage. I have no problem hitting out to 300Y with a red dot on either gun. In terms of practical accuracy, they are equal. Scientific accuracy is a different thing. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 1:01:25 PM EDT
[#30]
OP I was living in Central VA (not as mountainous) but similar environment, thick woodland, farmland and hills. I swapped out my AR15 frankengun which i loved for my Tavor. It was a personal preference but what I found was that accuracy for any realistic distance was about the same, taking my crappy shooting into account
. Where the tavor won big for me was in the fact that I could easily sling it across my back or front and go walking or even have it at the ready without really having to worry about it being tangled on brush etc. Your circumstance might be different and I will admit I am biased as I trained on a bullpup rifle for several years so it felt very natural for me to should and shoot. Having said that you really can't go wrong with either but the Tavor was the rifle I always picked up to a a'wanderin with.
p.s. I should also note i ended up with an eotech on my Tavor, i just like 'em but I did run a 3x9 scope on it for a while when a buddy and myself were doing some 300 yard work and it performed very well. I think if you threw an acog on it you would have a great, compact rifle. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 1:08:08 PM EDT
[#31]
All, good points: Length, weight, durability.
While length is an issue that concerns me, I would rather deal with the weight of a Tavor, than moving through thick brush with a full length AR. The Tavor's durability is also unmatched. Hmm. The ideal set up would be a two man team, one with the Tavor, the other with the AR for longer range. Luckily they both take the same ammo and mags. If I had to pick one, it would be a toss-up for the time being. I really need to get out and spend time shooting both at longer ranges. Unfortunately, even though I'm out in the boonies, as the first poster on this page mentioned, it's hard to find places to shoot beyond 100 meters. And there are no local ranges that are beyond like 95 yards, so it's difficult to really ascertain the true limits of my Tavor. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 4:50:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
a 16" Tavor w/o optic weighs 1lb less than an M16A4 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Weight is important. My opinion as a tavor owner is it is a heavy weapon. A descent optic, a full mag and an integrated light and we are near or around 13 lbs. a 16" Tavor w/o optic weighs 1lb less than an M16A4 No it doesn't. An empty 16" Tavor without optics weights about 8lb, and an M16A4 (with a 4" longer BBL) weighsabout 7.5lb. And that's with a 4" longer barrel. Compare same BBL length and it'll be closer to a lb difference. That's the biggest failure bullpup designers have made, in my opinion. Somehow they have managed to take 6-9" off the length of a rifle and make it HEAVIER! What the Hell?!? |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 5:07:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it doesn't. An empty 16" Tavor without optics weights about 8lb, and an M16A4 (with a 4" longer BBL) weighsabout 7.5lb. And that's with a 4" longer barrel. Compare same BBL length and it'll be closer to a lb difference. That's the biggest failure bullpup designers have made, in my opinion. Somehow they have managed to take 6-9" off the length of a rifle and make it HEAVIER! What the Hell?!? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Weight is important. My opinion as a tavor owner is it is a heavy weapon. A descent optic, a full mag and an integrated light and we are near or around 13 lbs. a 16" Tavor w/o optic weighs 1lb less than an M16A4 No it doesn't. An empty 16" Tavor without optics weights about 8lb, and an M16A4 (with a 4" longer BBL) weighsabout 7.5lb. And that's with a 4" longer barrel. Compare same BBL length and it'll be closer to a lb difference. That's the biggest failure bullpup designers have made, in my opinion. Somehow they have managed to take 6-9" off the length of a rifle and make it HEAVIER! What the Hell?!? You're right. I was using loaded weight for the A4 |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 5:19:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would consider durability in your case as well. The TAV wins big here. The achilles heel of the M4 is the junction of the buffer tube to the lower, and the buffer tube itself. If you drop an M4 onto the buttstock from any appreciable height, there's a good chance the buffer tube could take a hit, or it could stress and bend at that junction. The M16 with an A2 stock does not have this liability to the same degree. e.g. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=574580 Really? You're going to hold up a thread from three years ago where someone used a known substandard and low quality receiver extension that broke as a reason to worry about the receiver extension on a quality AR-15 pattern carbine? Sort of like saying cars aren't reliable because the Yugo was such a POS... If this was such an issue, I'm sure we'd have heard numerous reports of it happening... |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 7:31:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would consider durability in your case as well. The TAV wins big here. The achilles heel of the M4 is the junction of the buffer tube to the lower, and the buffer tube itself. If you drop an M4 onto the buttstock from any appreciable height, there's a good chance the buffer tube could take a hit, or it could stress and bend at that junction. The M16 with an A2 stock does not have this liability to the same degree. e.g. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=574580 The TAV also sports less small parts liable to breakage. I have no problem hitting out to 300Y with a red dot on either gun. In terms of practical accuracy, they are equal. Scientific accuracy is a different thing. Citation on this with a 7075 buffer? To be frank, it sounds like you made it up. I've never heard of a buffer tube or receiver bending or breaking there, other than plastic ones or junk commercial tubes. I've mortared rifles, dropped them and banged them around in the back of trucks and never even come close to having the receiver or extension break or bend. I mean, if you like the Tavor, that's cool. I like it too. But don't make things up to justify why it's better than other guns. |
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Posted: 9/20/2015 8:10:07 PM EDT
[#36]
Based on your criteria of " only engage at a distance if necessary" I'd sell the Tavor and get an FNH SCAR H. A .308 has more knock down at distance than a 5.56.Plus, the SCAR H is light weight with a folding stock and recoils a lot less than most .308 caliber rifles.
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Posted: 9/21/2015 12:57:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Springfield M1A Loaded and a variable scope.. Match grade barrel, Match grade trigger ..... The SCAR in 7,62 is a great rifle but for a role like this, save the money. But personally If this were in a SHTF scenario and I was running solo - with little or no support I more than likely would not be looking to engage anyone at a distance ....or if I had too it would be To get enough time to move out and disappear.. |
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Posted: 9/21/2015 1:45:56 AM EDT
[#38]
What does a 20" AR do that an 18" Tavor can't? Just curious.
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Posted: 9/22/2015 9:04:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What does a 20" AR do that an 18" Tavor can't? Just curious. Has parts that you will more likely be able to find during TEOTWAWKI. For that matter, around here so will a Winchester or Marlin 30-30. |
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Posted: 9/24/2015 10:13:51 AM EDT
[#40]
I can shoot about 1.5-2.0 inch groups with my Tavor at 100 yds with ball ammo, stock trigger, and an EOTECH. I have no doubt that I can reach out to 4-500 yds with little difficulty.
In a SHTF scenario I would prefer a weapon that is equally suited to CQB or medium range engagements because you never really know what type of situation you might end up in. I would prefer the Tavor because it is an overal small package that is very capable in multiple scenarios. As far as scavenging parts in a TEOTWAWKI, I think at that stage you could find whole rifles to pick up or assemble. For the scenario the OP stated I would consider a suppressor of some sort to help with signature reduction if you did have to engage a target. Perhaps one of the Griffin cans that can mount over a standard A2 birdcage muzzle device. Also a good sling can help mitigate the weight issue of the Tavor. Ounces =pounds, pounds = pain |
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Posted: 9/25/2015 4:41:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course you can.
-- Chuck Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hit soup-can sized targets out past 400 hrs yards consistently with my Tavor.
-- Chuck Yep..... I normally don't raise the bullshit flag.... but. 
In the even that I am wrong...my apologies... but from what I have experienced with bullpups designed for battle accuracy..especially CQB accuracy, consistent .05 moa from a bull pup designed for CQB is frankly ground breaking |
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Posted: 9/28/2015 5:48:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honestly given the choice most Marines in the open country of AFG would still rather carry the shorter M4; it shorter length and ergonomics make it easier to carry Marines can call a-10, ah-64s & 155arty they'd be gtg with bayonets 
FI love the a4 I have never shot the tavor so for what it is worth in SHTF in the terrain you described If you have common engagement ranges beyond 500 meters I would step up to 7.62x51' If you plan on bugging out in a car the tavor's length is an advantage If on foot my a4 weighs about 11lbs loaded but my is set up to work with night vision. so the tavor is lighter, shorter , and you are worried about CQB my opinion there is don't do it with anything. wait and observe but ana4 woth a ta31 can do cqb well if the shooter is slow and careful about moving through doors the tavor esp at 18" barrel is the better choice in everything but rail space, unless you find the a4 easier to use |
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Posted: 9/28/2015 9:50:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Running solo in a SHTF scenario - no way I would be engaging anything out at 400/500 yards. I love 20 inch AR's/M16's but it prob would not be my first choice for a SHTF weapon. If you live in the mountains and need distance, you need a .308. bolt rifle or semi with a variable optic. |
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Posted: 10/1/2015 3:22:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Other than the normal arfcom nonsense I love the direction this thread is taking. I have a Tavor with the MI extended keymod handguard with integral light and an acog on top. It feels a little heavy but that is mostly because all the weight is condensed as it is faster in the hand than all my current AR's. I would put the tavor over the M16A4 clone myself. I love the ar platform and actually rate it above the tavor but that setup has always felt a little unwieldy in my hands. I was in the Army for a handful of years and the M16 20" barrel set up is definitely one of my least favorites. Even in the situations you describe I wouldn't feel less armed if I had a M4 clone instead. Also the KAC handguard is horrible in my opinion. But if you like it... I think you should roll both if you can. M16A4 while navigating the woods and tavor when exploring structures and maneuvering around your vehicle.
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Posted: 10/1/2015 10:00:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Aside from a SHTF scenario - In a practical sense, I have carried both in a law enforcement role..... The Tavor excels in terms of a patrol carbine (getting in and out of vehicles, building search etc.... Over a full length rifle. I would carry one over an M4 for that purpose as well... |
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Posted: 10/2/2015 3:35:08 AM EDT
[#46]
This funny....I just got some extra cash and was thinking...... Tavor or m16a4 build
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:50:47 PM EDT
[#47]
In this SHTF scenario you envision, will you be doing a lot of room clearing or entering and exiting a lot of vehicles quickly?
Or will you more likely be scavenging parts for your rifle? |
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