I was going to tag this on to the recent post about using an AUG/Tavor in a tactical class, but what the heck.  This was a 2-day, 10 hours each day, tactical pistol and rifle class geared toward active police, newer SWAT people, and a couple of other categories.  This was not aimed at advance tactical operators, experienced SWAT people, or trained killers...LOL!...so it was just what I needed for my first professional instruction in the tactical pistol/rifle category.  It was geared to proper manipulation of the pistol and rifle in stressful, pressure type situation for anything from almost contact fire to 300 yards.  It could probably be best described as training for an LEO who is not learning to shoot but learning how to use a handgun and rifle in a potential police situation requiring a more tactical response.  It was geared more toward rifle over pistol, since the instructors knew this was why most participants came to this class.  It involved about 500 rifle rounds and about 200 handgun rounds.  I was the only retired guy in the bunch...and the only one with a bullpup.  Most all departments only qualify an AR platform for police use...some SWAT excluded of course...and all other rifles present were AR15's of varying types...and oddly to me, no piston AR's...all DI.  The cheapest AR present was the entry level M&P15 that has no FA or dust cover.  The instructors were very interested to see how the Tavor played out because they almost never see one in LE use.  This was not a crazy, run-and-gun, shoot-em-up school like one might visualize for young, tactical/SWAT guys who need to run 100 yards at a time, crawl under cars, climb and repel on roofs, etc.

With no surprise to me, the Tavor performed mechanically without flaw, hiccup, or issue...none.  That said, pretty much all the AR's did the same with the exception of the M&P15.  To be fair, however, much of the M&P's problems appeared to be user-induced, as the guy was a newer shooter working for a very small jurisdiction.  This class was very good for him, as he probably learned the most of all.  I was a little in the same boat in the sense that all my career had almost none of the more modern tactical training which really can make you a better handgun and rifle shooter overall.  Here's what I learned on the good points of the Tavor.  Handling, shooting from an unsupported standing position, CQC, and similar situations were pretty much what the Tavor excelled at.  A short rifle with a good balance should do this.  That length and balance help greatly in an unsupported, standing position because you can keep your rifle up and the target acquired will less "shake" as time passes or your fatigue level rises.  The rifle did very well at the 300 yard mark from a prone position as did the AR's.  My Tavor has an Eotech.  Rifles with multiplied optics like 1-4 and such did better, of course.  I got to view the Aimpoint optics that some others have, and as I've mentioned before, I think the 1 MOA dot on the Eotech is an advantage at 100 yards and beyond compared to the 2 MOA dot of the Aimpoint and others.  After this class, I feel even more strongly about that.  1 to 2 MOA doesn't sound like much, but with no magnification at distance, that 2 MOA dot gets big IMO.  And I'm older, with astigmatism, and corrective lenses, and the 1 MOA dot is crisper and has less "bloom" being more finite.  Reloads under pressure are great on the Tavor.  With training I don't see how an AR can exceed the Tavor with its mag drop and bolt drop controls.  Even for a fumbling old idiot like me, it was a comfortable, quick process.  The Tavor had no mechanical functioning issues at all.  

Now the negative.  Obviously one can see that the offset from the optic to the barrel is at least an inch taller than any standard AR setup.  We measured it.  Mine was 1.25" taller than most AR's, and I don't have a riser with my optic like a lot of Tavor owners have.  BTW, I had no issue without a riser.  Optic acquisition and head position weren't a problem for me.  In CQC situations within 25', you really had to pay attention to raising your point of aim.  The bad guy/hostage situation where you head shot the bad guy over the victim's head, you had to shoot at the very top of the top of the bad guy's head.  My Tavor is sighted for 50 yards.  I have some nice AR's for longer shooting, though this class proved to me that the Tavor would not be out of the game with the right optic.  The overall height of the Tavor and optic is also a challenge when shooting through openings or tilted firing...like from under a vehicle.  The offset is a small but notable issue that training can help.  One very minor point is the smell of chamber gas that I don't seem to get on my NATO AUG.  I have Gearhead's tighter fitting aluminum plate for that left side ejection port, so I'm thinking this is coming right out of the right ejection port.  This is not a big deal.  I get no choking, eye-watering blasts or levels of gas.  I can just detect it where I don't on other rifles.  I think this could be a big issue on a suppressed Tavor.

I'm sure I'm missing other relative issues here that perhaps I'll recall later.  I would love to take the same class with my AUG and then my LWRC M6A2-S for comparison.  I did find that my old S&W 5943 pistol is an outdated antique...LOL!  I got to shoot some Glock 17's and such, and trigger pull, weight, barrel-to-grip axis, and mag drop controls have somehow made improvement over 35 years...LOL!  On the Tavor, however, I can see with more training and familiarity that this rifle can hold its own in any tactical situation with the right shooter.  I will say that the two instructors in the class were not impressed with the Tavor to the extent that would go run out and buy one.  They were not negative, however, and conceded that training extensively and maybe exclusively with the Tavor could change their minds.  Still, LEO's are usually locked in to the AR by regulation, so this is not unusual.

Thanks for the report - sounds like a good time was had.

Was this particular class doing a long of support-hand/weakside shooting or no?
That, light placement, and height over bore are really the biggest challenges to work around, IMO, and they differ slightly between different AUG models and the Tavor (A3 or AUG + rail VFG replacement open up more light placement options), as well as optic selection (1x w/near unlimited eye relief = can shoot mid-chest or weak-side, no chance of eating brass).

Would be interesting if you could run the identical class with all 3 platforms - your Tavor and NATO AUG, and a quality AR like the LWRC - I have a feeling running the same class isn't too likely, but maybe in the future, or swap between two of them at mid-day or for the second day, etc.

No weak hand shooting, but I have an observation about that.  I picked up one of those Galloway deflectors that have a slightly different angle while I was ordering some other stuff from Bullpup Armory...inexpensive little part claiming to redirect low power ammo and deflect better for offhand/lefthand shooting.  I didn't shoot my Tavor lefthanded before I got this deflector, so I'm not sure how it performed before.  I didn't get a face full of spent shells, so that's about all I can say about the part.

Appreciate the report!

I was wondering how things went for you.  Good details and some stuff (like height over bore issues) that I was not thinking of.

Just curious if you used a sling on the Tavor and if so what type.  If you used a sling could you describe how well your choice of sling worked in the class.   Did you do any transition shooting where you simulated your rifle was out of ammo/inoperative then drawing and employing your pistol?   Did you simulate clearing rooms or buildings or do any dynamic entries, if so do you have any perspective on using a Tavor in a stack?  Did you have any trouble controlling the short overall length of the Tavor compared to other class members with AR's regarding muzzle discipline or other safety conerns using such a short weapon.

I used a Magpul MS1 padded 2-point sling.  I usually use a standard MS1 on the Tavor and Steyr, but figured that two, hot, 10-hour days would make the padded MS1 a little better...it did.  I also noticed one of the two instructors used a padded MS1.  The padded section on these MS1's is not a pillow sized section of foam...just a slight padding and not too wide.  I've used this padded sling generally for my two AR10's when hunting.  It worked great on the Tavor.  The quick slide buckle performs as advertised.  I used it fully drawn to tight for general shooting and pulled a good length of slack for going to prone and shooting tilted like under a car.

Yes, we did transitions from rifle to pistol for different scenarios, and I observed that the Tavor "flops" a bit less than a standard AR when you lower it to go to pistol.  I had no issue with that exercise at all.  The short weapon is a plus in that for me.  It was interesting noting the instructors watch me in some of those exercises, as they had little exposure to this rifle.  They were curious.

We didn't do multi-man "stacking" drills for clearing or maneuvering, but the Tavor was clearly not a safety concern for muzzle discipline or anything else.  Frankly, with a good sling and a normal amount of attention the rifle hangs well without flop and seems to transition from rest in the sling to on-target easier and safer than an AR.  One of the instructors finally did put a little white dot on my safety lever on each side.  I have a Galloway ambi safety on mine that sits at 45-degrees...personal preference.  My right side of the gun has the lower nub cut off because I'm right handed.  This threw him a bit understandably while trying to insure I was going to "on safe" at certain points.

At the end of the class we had a round table on various issues, and the only concern the instructors had was that optic/barrel offset for CQC.  However, they knew it was something that training would address and not a serious flaw.

Thank you for your detailed report as I am also a retired LEO who has adopted the Tavor.  My PD started issuing AR's shortly after the 911 attack and  then later let Officer carry their own AR's.  I never really cared for single point slings and use a 2 point on my Tavor with the sling attached at the rear on the opposite side of the front sling attachment. This makes weak side shooting very easy with the Tavor.

I have not taken any formal training with my Tavor but your report mirrors my own experience and is reassuring.  Thank you for taking time to share your experience!

Just curious...did you ever get to train in an actual tactical rifle course during your career with an AR or such?  Even with over 30 years, I never had the opportunity.  Even in a decently large department, I guess that because 3/4 of my career was in plainclothes investigation, it just wasn't a priority for my training.  I've been a pistol, shotgun, and rifle guy for all my life, but this was a whole other avenue of exposure.  If you get a chance to take some kind of tactical class with any rifle, I'd encourage it.  It was a fun, eye-opening, learning experience.

One other issue with the Tavor just came to mind.  There is a procedure called a "press check" that is often performed during this class, and I guess it applies to real world situations too.  It's that deal where, for whatever reason, you need to check to see if a bullet is chambered in the weapon without having to stroke the slide or charging handle and spitting out a live round.  It's that procedure where you slightly pull back the slide/charging handle enough to partially see the cartridge.  On the Tavor, you really have to be careful to make sure you pull the charging handle back far enough so that the bolt will still have enough spring force to put the bolt back into battery.  Please...correct me if I'm wrong or missed it...the Tavor doesn't have an FA, and the charging handle doesn't function as an FA in a case like this.  My Steyr AUG's charging handle will perform an FA function.  Also, to lock the bolt back on the Tavor without a mag, the only way is to pull the bolt drop lever at the rear of the rifle while simultaneously pulling the charging handle all the way back...correct?  This is a relatively awkward maneuver.  On my AUG, you just pull the charging handle back and push the handle into its bolt lock-back indention.  These are not overwhelming issues for the Tavor, just a niggling observation.  If I've missed something on these two issues by use and in the manual, please correct me.  I do not claim to be an expert arms guy here.

Sir,

From what I understand, the charging rod will not FA the Tavor bolt.  It is only a push rod for opening the bolt.  That's good insight on having to practice a half press so that the spring will send it home.  Unfortunately, not as quiet as riding the bolt home and then closing the bolt with an FA button like you can do on an AR.

For manually locking the bolt open, I found you don't have to pull down on the bolt release button, but you can actually push up on it on the other side of where it pivots in the frame.  Hard for me to explain, but it will make sense if you try it.  Not sure if it makes the manipulation that much easier, but I've gotten accustomed to doing that pretty quickly.

Someone on the BP forum dremeled a lateral notch into the back their charging-rod channel so he could lock the bolt open using the rod handle.  Otherwise, button it is

dan

U


My Agency had a 40 hour class you had to attend prior to being issued a rifle.  The Department bought a few hundred Bushmaster 16" AR-15 carbines and developed their own rifle course.  Our course started with a half day class room where they assigned a rifle then lecture with disassembly, cleaning/maintenance and discussion on safety plus shooting positions.  By the time I was assigned to the class all the Bushmasters had been issued and I was issued a Colt M-16A1 which was an ex Air Force rifle in excellent condition.  I added a sling and tritium front night sight as all we were issued was the rifle and two 30 round mags.

The rest of the week was spent on the range where we shot several hundred rounds of ammunition.  The furthest we shot was about 150 yards but my Department uses two qualification courses, a short course plus a long course.  The short course involed a lot of shooting on the move, weak side shooting plus transitioning to pistol.  We also practiced clearing buildings, dynamic entries and a live fire shoot house.  The long course involved shooting prone, standing and on command going prone and engaging multiple targets.   We also had a stage where we ran to the 50 yard line, took a barricade position and engaged multiple targets.  Then we engaged targets from 50 yards to about 25 yards where we would pivot and engage, kneel or go prone on command and engage identified targets.  We shot at suspect hostage targets and also had a very extensive night shoot.  There was a good bit of time dedicated to magazine changes, weapon stoppages and transition shooting.

Later when we did active shooter training we extensively trained with rifle and pistol simunitions.  A year or two after I was issued the Colt I was given the option to turn in the M-16A1 which had a semi only FCG and carry my own personal AR-15 carbine.  My  old Department issues an AR-15 patrol rifle to every patrol Officer plus a shotgun ( slugs only) and their Glock service pistol.  All new recruits have gone through rifle training in the Academy which is very thorough.  My old department was very concerned about active shooters and pulled all our buckshot ammunition for fear of fratricide.  

The only thing lacking was the issuance of tactical lights on our rifles and shotguns.  We trained using a flashlight with a pistol so most Officers bought their own lights which could be used on the rifles.   My Department discussed press checking weapons but really didn't advocate using it.  Our pistols were always loaded and we practiced the hot range philosophy during our rifle training.  We generally carried long guns condition 3 and charged the weapon when a potential threat existed.

Not having a FA has been a non issue for me with the Tavor but I learned a long time ago to load my magaines the same.  My 30 round AR mags are loaded to 28, if in the heat of the moment I can't remember if I charged my rifle I can look at the top round in the mag, even numbers on the right odd numbers on The left.   If any weapon goes click you tap rack bang.  Another simple thing to know if you load to capacity, top round (#30) is on the right, 31 would be on the top left non ejection port side of the mag plus loading to capacity are harder to seat (this is not fool proof or recommended for everyone but worked for me).

Dan,
I also use the push vs. pull motion to manually hold the action open. I've added a spot of white enamel to the receiver of the gun next to the forward section of the lever and added a square of skateboard tape to that section of the lever also for a visual and tactile assist in quickly locating it with my thumb.

I like your tape idea; going to do it myself. I recently put skateboard material on the pistol grip, forearm, and mid section of the Tavor and have plenty of the roll left.  Thanks for the tip!

dan

Thanks for the background, vascar.  It's always interesting to see how different people come to the table with different preferences, knowledge/experience levels, and interests with all the different types of firearms we have now.

dan, I checked that method of bolt lock back, and it's definitely better than tugging on the pivot.  Thanks.

And in a non-Tavor related issue as a result of this class, I picked up a Glock 17 today to replace that aging S&W 5943.  Moving into the 21st century...LOL!

EXCELLENT thread!!

Some really great, practical advice.....!!

Very informative AAR on using the Tavor. Thanks for sharing.

I do agree with needing to be aware of the optic height difference. Some are more drastic than others. Grabbing the first AR in front of safe with a Aimpoint T1 and comparing to my Tavor with EoTech EXPS the Tavor optic is 1/2" higher. Probably wouldn't notice unless doing precision shooting like you were doing. But some of the higher mounts the difference would be magnified of course.

Chuck, lots of good observations and explained with some good insight.  However, I'd tend to disagree with a couple of the "cons" you laid out.  The handling of a good bullpup is arguably one of its assets rather than a negative.  While you're right about dealing with muscle memory from years of training with a different platform, if we didn't move forward maybe we'd still be using muskets...or sticks and stones.  The optic/sight choice isn't quite as problematic as you suggest.  Other than that offset issue for closeup targets that I pointed out...which is addressed by training and familiarity...I didn't encounter any target issues with my Eotech from 50-300 yards...at least none I would not have encountered with my LWRC.  I think we need to keep in mind that neither a standard AR15 nor a Tavor are meant to be sniper rifles.  And trust me...I'm not about to pronounce the AR platform dead because of bullpups.  They're all just different tools in the box to me.

Man oh man!...you are dead right about the OEM trigger.  It was a Tav-D for me too just as soon as I could get one here.  And the lack of FA for the potential life threatening situation that "could" arise if you had to totally rely on the Tavor...I'm looking forward to Gearhead's solution that appears to be nearing completion.

Substantive discussions about all weapons are fun and informative.  Clearly not everyone will agree with all of the observations and preferences, but then that's why we have a ton of choices out there.

The height over bore of the fixed optic AUG is exactly the same as the iron sights on an AR, 2.6"