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Posted: 3/24/2015 9:01:55 PM EDT
After working with a gun manufacturer consistently since September 2014 on this project he has suddenly informed me that he is working on a "incredibly similar" design and "Because of design similarities, it would be a conflict of interest if we continue to work together."
My design has basically become a billet monolithic upper DI ar15 with a free floating barrel but in a bulpup. You can also configure the ejection. I'm starting to get discouraged so I thought I would throw this out there. Does anyone have any contacts they would be willing to share that could help me make my gun? 
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Posted: 3/24/2015 9:45:52 PM EDT
[#1]
No contacts but that is cool!
Maybe reach out toe K&M (the guy who redesigned the Bushmaster M17) Ratworx might have a lead Maticore (sp?) knows people also Faxon is rumored to be making one of these also Wish you the best of luck |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 8:11:20 AM EDT
[#2]
K&M, Ratworx,and Manticore are out.
Faxon is a good thought tho. I'll drop him a line but I suspect they care more about their piston upper on a bull pup lower, not a new di bull pup. |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 11:25:18 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm confused about what makes this an "AR-15"? The attraction IMNSHO would be using standard AR-15 lowers, am I missing that here? Using AR-15 bits and pieces is a wise business decision, but doesn't make it a "Bullpup AR-15"....
Best of luck with the design regardless! Richard |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 12:40:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Its the ar15 barrel, gas system, pistol grip, safety selector, magazine, bolt, fire control group, and urethane bumper. Its more AR15 than anything, but semantically its not an ar15 as far as the lower receiver.
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Posted: 3/25/2015 2:33:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Sooo.. a Tavor?
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Posted: 3/25/2015 5:31:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sooo.. a Tavor? Sure...in the same way a coffee mug is the same as a donut |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 5:50:08 PM EDT
[#7]
What are you looking at for price point?
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Posted: 3/25/2015 5:55:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What are you looking at for price point? Not looking to sell any...but I guess I should think of that aspect to get someone to help me build one. Its the $ that caused the initial shop to jump ship. |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 7:56:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sooo.. a Tavor? A Tavor, design wise, is closer to an AK or Galil, really. |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 10:01:31 PM EDT
[#10]
I know the Iranians modified the M-16 into a bullpup of sorts too known as the Khaybar 2002. Sure is one UGLY SOB though!
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Posted: 3/25/2015 11:44:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its the ar15 barrel, gas system, pistol grip, safety selector, magazine, bolt, fire control group, and urethane bumper. Its more AR15 than anything, but semantically its not an ar15 as far as the lower receiver. Well, from the picture it might include the AR-15 FCG, but the 'pup's FCG isn't the AR-15 FCG - clearly there's a linkage or something to the trigger which means trigger feel is up in the air. Personally I think doing a DI 'pup is an "interesting" choice... You'd have my attention if it were on an AR-15 receiver because those are plentiful and cheap, not to mention 80%-available, but a ground-up DI gun has no attraction to me at all. Just my feedback, again, honest well-wishes with the enterprise! Richard |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 12:01:51 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure...in the same way a coffee mug is the same as a donut Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sooo.. a Tavor? Sure...in the same way a coffee mug is the same as a donut Clever, but maybe you should take another look... Anyways good luck with your Tavor/Khaybar Clone 
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Posted: 3/26/2015 6:37:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'd have my attention if it were on an AR-15 receiver because those are plentiful and cheap, not to mention 80%-available I can tell you that after looking into the details for a while now what you are describing will end up being a kludge. The goal of a mechanical engineer is as few parts as possible. The better design for a bull pup is a purpose built lower. We are unlikely to ever see something like what you describe on the market, but time will tell. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:23:40 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know the Iranians modified the M-16 into a bullpup of sorts too known as the Khaybar 2002. Sure is one UGLY SOB though!
http://www.military-today.com/firearms/khaybar.jpg I've seen pictures...from my research a while back it was saying that they switched to a piston on later models. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 9:24:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Just got a reply from Faxon, they are not interested.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 11:17:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just got a reply from Faxon, they are not interested. On the contrary, we're interested, but can't comment on development... 
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Posted: 3/26/2015 1:43:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On the contrary, we're interested, but can't comment on development... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just got a reply from Faxon, they are not interested. On the contrary, we're interested, but can't comment on development... Makes sense that you can't comment since you don't want to jeopardize any of your own IP. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 4:50:55 PM EDT
[#18]
That looks a lot like the old Bushmaster 5.56 pistol.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 9:44:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can tell you that after looking into the details for a while now what you are describing will end up being a kludge. The goal of a mechanical engineer is as few parts as possible. The better design for a bull pup is a purpose built lower. We are unlikely to ever see something like what you describe on the market, but time will tell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You'd have my attention if it were on an AR-15 receiver because those are plentiful and cheap, not to mention 80%-available I can tell you that after looking into the details for a while now what you are describing will end up being a kludge. The goal of a mechanical engineer is as few parts as possible. The better design for a bull pup is a purpose built lower. We are unlikely to ever see something like what you describe on the market, but time will tell. No disagreement - but at that point you might as well design a ground-up bullpup - like say the AUG, FS2000, M17S, MDR, Tavor, etc... Richard |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 10:51:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
but at that point you might as well design a ground-up bullpup - like say the AUG, FS2000, M17S, MDR, Tavor, etc... Richard If my job was firearm designer for a major manufactuer...but its not. Procuring a custom barrel, bolt, gas system, magazine catch, trigger assembly would cost me a thousands of dollars and take months (if i could even find someone who would make any of that). I can buy the ar15 barrel, bolt, gas system and trigger assembly for hundreds and get them in less than a week from Brownells. Minimizing the number of custom parts is an effort to make this affordable for me to do. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 11:41:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my job was firearm designer for a major manufactuer...but its not. Procuring a custom barrel, bolt, gas system, magazine catch, trigger assembly would cost me a thousands of dollars and take months (if i could even find someone who would make any of that). I can buy the ar15 barrel, bolt, gas system and trigger assembly for hundreds and get them in less than a week from Brownells. Minimizing the number of custom parts is an effort to make this affordable for me to do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
but at that point you might as well design a ground-up bullpup - like say the AUG, FS2000, M17S, MDR, Tavor, etc... Richard If my job was firearm designer for a major manufactuer...but its not. Procuring a custom barrel, bolt, gas system, magazine catch, trigger assembly would cost me a thousands of dollars and take months (if i could even find someone who would make any of that). I can buy the ar15 barrel, bolt, gas system and trigger assembly for hundreds and get them in less than a week from Brownells. Minimizing the number of custom parts is an effort to make this affordable for me to do. Did you see the ones I built for myself? I am in the process of building one more and have plans for 308 version after that. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 11:44:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Minimizing the number of custom parts is an effort to make this affordable for me to do. Ok, so perhaps I'm alone in this confusion, but tell me what the *goal* is here? You just want to make yourself a single instance of a bullpup rifle to be able to say you did it? I can respect that. I've been under the impression that you wanted to bring a new product to market with some unique characteristic that made it a commercial success - and my answers have been predicated on that. I'm starting to think that I'm way off base - and if your goal is as above (one-off) then I get it. If your goal is a commercial product you probably need to explain to us what unique characteristic(s) make it special. My read on the comment about building a Tavor is that what you've shown us looks functionally just like a Tavor and using a stock AR pistol grip probably isn't "unique" enough as a differentiator.... Richard |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 5:27:55 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you see the ones I built for myself? I am in the process of building one more and have plans for 308 version after that. ya i've seen you builds. I like them all. I was just looking to do something unique so I tried not to directly copy them. Were you thinking you would be willing to help me with my build? (I guess I should have came to you sooner if so) |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 6:09:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, so perhaps I'm alone in this confusion, but tell me what the *goal* is here? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, so perhaps I'm alone in this confusion, but tell me what the *goal* is here? I don't know why you are being so obtuse. So many people customize their AR15 (yes i know semantically you don't think this is an ar15). I want to use my skills to design my own custom version because purchasing all stock components and building one doesn't do it for me...I'm interested in the mechanical engineering of guns. Quoted:
what you've shown us looks functionally just like a Tavor and using a stock AR pistol grip probably isn't "unique" enough as a differentiator I almost feel at this point you are trying to insult my judgement and that you don't think I know about the TAVOR. I've shot the TAVOR, took it apart, used calipers to measured things, learned how it works, read the manual, counted the number of parts, watched videos on TAVOR, took notes on key design features...I understand the TAVOR. My design uses metal upper and lower receivers that separate like an AR, free floated barrel, direct impingement...and a whole slew of other differences from the TAVOR or really any bull pup. There is very little it shares in common engineering wise with the TAVOR other than its a bull pup that uses AR15 magazines. |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 8:41:48 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No disagreement - but at that point you might as well design a ground-up bullpup - like say the AUG, FS2000, M17S, MDR, Tavor, etc... Richard Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You'd have my attention if it were on an AR-15 receiver because those are plentiful and cheap, not to mention 80%-available I can tell you that after looking into the details for a while now what you are describing will end up being a kludge. The goal of a mechanical engineer is as few parts as possible. The better design for a bull pup is a purpose built lower. We are unlikely to ever see something like what you describe on the market, but time will tell. No disagreement - but at that point you might as well design a ground-up bullpup - like say the AUG, FS2000, M17S, MDR, Tavor, etc... Richard 
Why? |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 8:49:08 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On the contrary, we're interested, but can't comment on development... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just got a reply from Faxon, they are not interested. On the contrary, we're interested, but can't comment on development... Is that why they wouldn't give me the barrel/trunion thread specs when I was asking about buying a trunion earlier this week? 
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Posted: 3/27/2015 4:55:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know why you are being so obtuse. So many people customize their AR15 (yes i know semantically you don't think this is an ar15). I want to use my skills to design my own custom version because purchasing all stock components and building one doesn't do it for me...I'm interested in the mechanical engineering of guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ok, so perhaps I'm alone in this confusion, but tell me what the *goal* is here? I don't know why you are being so obtuse. So many people customize their AR15 (yes i know semantically you don't think this is an ar15). I want to use my skills to design my own custom version because purchasing all stock components and building one doesn't do it for me...I'm interested in the mechanical engineering of guns. I'm being obtuse? All you had to do was say "Yes" to the second part of that posting: Quoted:
You just want to make yourself a single instance of a bullpup rifle to be able to say you did it? I can respect that. I'm not sure what part of "I can respect that" is obtuse, but no worries I wash my hands of this thread. Richard |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 5:20:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure what part of "I can respect that" is obtuse, but no worries I wash my hands of this thread. Richard Pulling the O word may have been uncalled for. Just a little frustrated, was hoping for more leads from people who may know a shop that could help me make this. |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 5:55:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pulling the O word may have been uncalled for. Just a little frustrated, was hoping for more leads from people who may know a shop that could help me make this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not sure what part of "I can respect that" is obtuse, but no worries I wash my hands of this thread. Richard Pulling the O word may have been uncalled for. Just a little frustrated, was hoping for more leads from people who may know a shop that could help me make this. No firearms manufacturer is likely to help you build your one-off gun, there's nothing in it for them. You'll probably end up building it yourself and laying down some cash to farm out the hard parts. It's nice having a mill, lathe and welder at home.... |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 6:50:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No firearms manufacturer is likely to help you build your one-off gun, there's nothing in it for them. You'll probably end up building it yourself and laying down some cash to farm out the hard parts. It's nice having a mill, lathe and welder at home.... I don't really have any metal working tools at home for personal use. The lower receiver (which is likely what should be serialized) needs a CNC mill and a broach. This is way out of my price range. I somewhat agree with the your point except for I would think a company who does custom AR work would like to brag about completing a custom build like this. |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 11:55:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Actually any decent milling machine is all you need for the lower. I machined a lower from aluminum the only thing I couldn't finish on the machine was the mag well and that was finished with a file. Numerical read out is nice but not necessary.
The biggest problem seems to me the legality. It is illegal for anyone to build a lower for another individual without being a licensed manufacturer with the ATF. I can legally build one or more for myself but I can't sell them without a bunch of paper work. I can sympathize with your desire to build your own design but you are most likely going to have to do it yourself. I am playing with an idea to use the Faxon upper a standard AR lower and just build the parts that would turn that combination into a bullpup. It would NOT save anybody money almost any factory made gun would be cheaper. And it would not be as full integrated as a one piece lower. |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 12:35:10 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't really have any metal working tools at home for personal use. The lower receiver (which is likely what should be serialized) needs a CNC mill and a broach. This is way out of my price range. I somewhat agree with the your point except for I would think a company who does custom AR work would like to brag about completing a custom build like this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No firearms manufacturer is likely to help you build your one-off gun, there's nothing in it for them. You'll probably end up building it yourself and laying down some cash to farm out the hard parts. It's nice having a mill, lathe and welder at home.... I don't really have any metal working tools at home for personal use. The lower receiver (which is likely what should be serialized) needs a CNC mill and a broach. This is way out of my price range. I somewhat agree with the your point except for I would think a company who does custom AR work would like to brag about completing a custom build like this. I've finished magwells on my Bridgeport with a single-point broach I made from a 1/2" rod with a triangular lathe insert on the end, using the quill as the broach feed. It's not the quickest, but it gets me into the corners. |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 1:09:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually any decent milling machine is all you need for the lower. I machined a lower from aluminum the only thing I couldn't finish on the machine was the mag well and that was finished with a file. Numerical read out is nice but not necessary. The biggest problem seems to me the legality. It is illegal for anyone to build a lower for another individual without being a licensed manufacturer with the ATF. I can legally build one or more for myself but I can't sell them without a bunch of paper work. I can sympathize with your desire to build your own design but you are most likely going to have to do it yourself. I am playing with an idea to use the Faxon upper a standard AR lower and just build the parts that would turn that combination into a bullpup. It would NOT save anybody money almost any factory made gun would be cheaper. And it would not be as full integrated as a one piece lower. Gotta agree..... |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 1:11:27 AM EDT
[#34]
 dupe
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Posted: 3/28/2015 2:40:43 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't really have any metal working tools at home for personal use. The lower receiver (which is likely what should be serialized) needs a CNC mill and a broach. This is way out of my price range. I somewhat agree with the your point except for I would think a company who does custom AR work would like to brag about completing a custom build like this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No firearms manufacturer is likely to help you build your one-off gun, there's nothing in it for them. You'll probably end up building it yourself and laying down some cash to farm out the hard parts. It's nice having a mill, lathe and welder at home.... I don't really have any metal working tools at home for personal use. The lower receiver (which is likely what should be serialized) needs a CNC mill and a broach. This is way out of my price range. I somewhat agree with the your point except for I would think a company who does custom AR work would like to brag about completing a custom build like this. There are plenty of machine shops that have capacity. What you need is a solid design. You should talk to Nodak Spud. They are the masters of what a small innovative business can do...or Aero Precision for machine work. Your idea is sound. If you can make it plug and play with AR components....I would buy one to build. |
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Posted: 3/29/2015 5:46:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are plenty of machine shops that have capacity. What you need is a solid design. You should talk to Nodak Spud. They are the masters of what a small innovative business can do...or Aero Precision for machine work. Good tip. Thanks! |
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Posted: 3/30/2015 3:30:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've finished magwells on my Bridgeport with a single-point broach I made from a 1/2" rod with a triangular lathe insert on the end, using the quill as the broach feed. It's not the quickest, but it gets me into the corners. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No firearms manufacturer is likely to help you build your one-off gun, there's nothing in it for them. You'll probably end up building it yourself and laying down some cash to farm out the hard parts. It's nice having a mill, lathe and welder at home.... I don't really have any metal working tools at home for personal use. The lower receiver (which is likely what should be serialized) needs a CNC mill and a broach. This is way out of my price range. I somewhat agree with the your point except for I would think a company who does custom AR work would like to brag about completing a custom build like this. I've finished magwells on my Bridgeport with a single-point broach I made from a 1/2" rod with a triangular lathe insert on the end, using the quill as the broach feed. It's not the quickest, but it gets me into the corners. You can also use a small bit to do it, if you dont mind rounded corners. Its how we did it before EDM. |
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Posted: 3/30/2015 8:42:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've finished magwells on my Bridgeport with a single-point broach I made from a 1/2" rod with a triangular lathe insert on the end, using the quill as the broach feed. It's not the quickest, but it gets me into the corners. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've finished magwells on my Bridgeport with a single-point broach I made from a 1/2" rod with a triangular lathe insert on the end, using the quill as the broach feed. It's not the quickest, but it gets me into the corners. Quoted:
You can also use a small bit to do it, if you dont mind rounded corners. Its how we did it before EDM. I would take either...I'm not hung up on it having to be broached...or even CNC...If i invested in my own mill, making all the required parts would be rough introduction to manual machining for a noob. I do go back and forth on the idea. |
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Posted: 3/31/2015 12:31:00 AM EDT
[#39]
I don't quite get this. The AR system uses a buffer tube, which extends almost all the way to the back of the stock. Carbines have a shorter buffer tube, but it's still sticks back pretty far from the action. To make an AR into a bullpup, you either have to eliminate the buffer tube (at which point, is it still an AR?) or you have to incorporate that into the length of the gun, and I'm guessing end up with a longer bullpup, nearly defeating the point.
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Posted: 3/31/2015 12:56:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't quite get this. The AR system uses a buffer tube, which extends almost all the way to the back of the stock. Carbines have a shorter buffer tube, but it's still sticks back pretty far from the action. To make an AR into a bullpup, you either have to eliminate the buffer tube (at which point, is it still an AR?) or you have to incorporate that into the length of the gun, and I'm guessing end up with a longer bullpup, nearly defeating the point. I'd consider the bufferless SBR in my avatar an AR, it's got AR15 receivers, barrel, bolt, carrier, and most other parts, some modified. |
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Posted: 3/31/2015 1:32:08 AM EDT
[#41]
This one has a pistol buffer tube no buffer weight but it does have the recoil spring and special bolt that come with the 4" buffer tube. It is only 28" long 2" longer than required with a 16.5" barrel. That doesn't include the compensator so a 14."5 barrel and pinned compensator would be right near the legal limit.
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Posted: 3/31/2015 8:59:27 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To make an AR into a bullpup, you either have to eliminate the buffer tube (at which point, is it still an AR?) or you have to incorporate that into the length of the gun To avoid misunderstanding I changed the title, but I think the bolt, barrel, and gas system are the heart of what makes the AR15 a unique gun, not the receiver extension and recoil spring. In the pivotal patent for the ar15 the inventor doesn't really even discuss or show the recoil springs : "The bolt carrier 36 and the bolt 25 are then driven forward by the action of a driving spring of conventional design (not shown) or the like acting on the bolt carrier 36" AR15 gas powered bolt carrier patent |
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Posted: 3/31/2015 9:53:19 AM EDT
[#43]
What ever happened to the longziz ar15 bullpup ? Is it still being developed
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Posted: 4/1/2015 8:38:19 PM EDT
[#44]
He is still working on it, he posted something the other day on bullpupforum.
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Posted: 4/2/2015 6:06:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Kickstarter.
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