Join me in an imaginary jaunt.

In another thread I posted that with the advent of the Geissele and ShootingSight triggers that the Tavor had become a single compromise rifle versus an AR.  Namely, you are trading additional weight for reduced length.  Most other aspects are comparable, or at least as "easy" as an AR.  Ballistics, safety manipulation, magazine changes, etc.

I personally think the shorter overall length is worth the weight additional weight, but I'm one of those guys who wonders "what if".  A Colt 6940P lists at a weight of 6.9 pounds, while a Tavor lists at 7.9 pounds.  I picked the 6940P for comparison because it carries the extra weight of a piston system.

If the weight of industry and American (or Israeli) ingenuity were thrown into a project to lighten the Tavor, what could be done to trim some of the weight.  

Note, I don't expect any of this to be done, just engaging in a mental exercise, but who knows, with the popularity of the rifle, maybe some aftermarket components might come down the pike at some point.

The only lighter weight part I'm currently aware of is the Manticore Arms buttpad, which looks to shave about an ounce off the stock unit.

Carbon Fiber versus polymer rifle body and handguard?
Titanium or otherwise lightened top rail?
Internal metal frame of alternate material?

Dreaming drives innovation, so what could be done to bring the next generation Tavor down in weight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjBLuTwT6mM

It's not a rifle for the ultra light weight crowd. The upgrades you suggest will make the price even more ridiculous than it already is. Polymer is inexpensive and durable, as is aluminum. Carbon fiber and titanium are very much not cheap. You're dreaming of taking an infantry rifle and turning it into an Italian sports car.

I really want a Tavor, but for the cost plus the added expense of a good trigger, I'll pass.

The rifle's perfectly usable with the stock trigger.

The X-95 (Micro-Tavor) is somehow almost a whole pound lighter than the Tavor

But one of the reasons that the Tavor is heavier than the M4, is because it uses a long-stroke piston system. The long-stroke system is also probably the main reason why the Tavor is so much more reliable than the M4

Agreed, and if you take the reset spring out you shave about 4 lbs off the trigger pull.  Mine has worked fine so far without it, though I haven't been dragging it through the mud or anything like that.

how does it shoot the 9mm? No light strikes?

I do. With the new trigger, I think the weight is worth the shortened length.

Just wanted to stir a discussion on what might be possible if someone set there mind and resources to it.

Sub-frame from aluminum rather that steel?

What really got me thinking was the large number of lightweight AR parts we are seeing now.  Reduced mass carriers, titanium barrel nuts, magnesium alloy rails, etc.

No problem with the rifle, as is.  Just a mental exercise.

I thought it might get us off of the traditional AUG vs. Tavor discussion that comes up every 15 minutes

Since you have handled both. What do you say about the difference in LOP. I understand the x95 is ~1-1.5" less. The tavors' LOP is just a bit much for my taste.

Is the top rail on the Tavor made of steel? I'm sure someone out there makes, or could easily make, an aluminum one of similar profile. That would shave off 4-5 ounces. Maybe save a little weight swapping the factory trigger pack for that delrin one? It's all very small savings, but if you have the interest and the money to throw at it, why the hell not. I know people who swap paintjobs on their cars just to try and save a few ounces.

This

Magazine changes are nowhere near as fast on the tavor compared to the AR15.

That is all.

Also, I think you are spot on with realizing that we are trading length for weight.

Nonsense. The magazine changes are as fast, and possibly faster, on the Tavor compared to the AR-15, once you've practised a few times. It's easy to do it in 2 seconds or under.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDtDjiOLjbo




I think the increased weight of the Tavor is mainly a result of being a long-stroke piston system like an AK-47.




Yes I think you're right.

According to IWI, the X-95-L (with a 16.5'' barrel) is 3.2 Kg (7.0 lb). So it's only slightly lighter than the TAR-21  

http://www.israel-weapon.com/?catid={6D9367DF-6A8D-4020-8E19-A7322FFCA668}

Incorrect, Once you've gotten used to the platform. Especially when you factor in hitting the bolt release or racking the charging handle on the AR, as the Tavor's bolt release can be hit the second the mag is inserted.

Not nonsense.  I like my Tavor, but the AR is still quicker and easier, mainly because you don't have to come so far "off of the gun".

Practice. Mag changes on a Tavor require LESS movement than an AR mag change.

I think the motion progression is more efficient on the Tavor.  If it is slower than an AR in practice, I would assume it's because your workspace is more confined with the magwell being closer to your body.  

I still think the Tavor should be faster because you drop the bolt without having to reposition your hand.  On the AR you slam the magazine home, reposition to hit the bolt release and then extend to the handguard..  On the Tavor, you drop the bolt with your thumb and extend directly to the handguard.

I might have to get the timer out and experiment for giggles.

Less hand movement maybe.  But where the mag is, there's just too much shooter in the way without your head and upper chest having to move out of the way.  Look at that video, how far off the sights the shooters eyes come.  The mag change on the AR can be done very, very fast without ever losing the sight picture.  

And I'm never going to fully trust hitting the mag release with the wrist like that.  It's not positive at all.

Keep your head on the gun. You don't have to lift up off it like he did and look down. One benefit of the Tavor over something like an AR is that you can keep your primarily hand on the gun and on the trigger, holding it back into your shoulder and in place, while you change mags. Even if you don't trust hitting the mag release with your hand (which is a practice issue), it's nearly as fast to grab the mag and rip it out while hitting the release. I'm not a small guy, and I can change mags easily without fumbling it against my chest or losing sight picture.

Then there is the concept of always stripping the magazine, and always running the charging handle.  I have been in a class with a respected instructor who taught that.  I have yet to have a magazine hang up on the Tavor, but I have had it happen a few times on an AR using USGI magazine.

I've taken half a dozen carbine courses by various instructors, some of which big name, that all advocated running the charging handle instead of hitting the bolt release on the side of the gun.

You want a DI Tavor?
We are talking roughly the weight of a loaded magazine difference between the two.
The main trade off with the Tavor is a 16" barrel in a 10-11" AR size package, the extra pound is worth it in my book.

Amen. I have no issues with mine.

This is

I can do a mag change a lot easier and quicker on the TAVOR than the AR. You just have to know how to do it. I need to make a video showing people how it is done.

ETA: I just saw this video someone posted earlier. That is exactly the way I do it. Simple and quick and with very little effort.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDtDjiOLjbo

The best way to make your Tavor lighter is to go to the gym and pick up and put down some weights a few time every day.

There are several things I just don't like about the Tavor, and the weight is one of them.  And weight lifting is not really an answer.

Overall, I think it is an excellent weapon-or gun-however you use it.  

However, I do not like the exposed trigger, don't like the trigger pull, don't like the overly exposed magazine release, and don't like the weight-nor, the price.
Please note, these are just my opinions, shared by most who are not Tavor owners.  If you bought a Tavor, obviously you are going to like a Tavor.

I have considered buying one on two separate occasions, as I think the trigger return mod and shaving the mag release down would solve some of my issues, but alas, why am I trying to solve issues on a $1800 dollar gun when my M4 suffers from none of these issues, and runs mag after mag without cleaning?

The magazine release is one of the positive points of the gun for me.

The reaction to the stock trigger varies - some people really hate it. I didn't hate it after removing the spring, although  I still bought the Geissele.

With the Geissele - the Tavor is really an excellent rifle.

I still think the Geissele is priced too high at $350. It should be about $230  like their SSA triggers. I don't understand why it's the most expensive trigger Geissele sell

As for the overall price. It would easily be worth $1600 if it included a trigger like the geissele. The main problem about the Tavor is that you need to allocate another $350 to get the trigger, which pushes the whole thing into quite expensive territory

 

Indeed.  Only semantics thought I have is calling it an "Infantry Rifle".  Nothing argumentative with you, just got me thinking.   Definitions likely are changing with the times, but I've always considered an "infantry rifle" to be a tool intended to fire out to over 300 yards with accuracy and hitting power.  This little rig is some sort of sub-carbine, and indeed the best building storming get-up you can get - crazy handy, short range knock down, and heavy trigger to prevent oops while running around building corners etc.  But for engagements where precision, accuracy, and power out to >300 yards are desired, I don't really consider that this gun's roll.  Which really goes back to my biggest issue with the Tavor, between it's relative inaccuracy and difficult trigger, it is an iffy choice if you want to be able to shoot dual roll both indoors and decent range outdoors.  However, back to it's real intended purpose, as a building storming gun and patrolmans handy carbine during frequent egress activity and other things, it's exceptional.  Sort of the M1 Carbine of the 2010's.  With this in mind, I'm leaning more to AUG's, which are more accurate and the triggers can be corrected more cost effectively.  

Anyway, going back to OP's premise, for that role, the lighter the better.  It is ironic than an M4, even though longer, is lighter, more accurate, has a better trigger, and is about 1/2 to 1/3 the price.  (But not nearly as cool!)

Just my thoughts.  TAVOR's are super cool.

 

The main advantage of the Tavors over the M4 platform, is that they are a lot more reliable in battlefield conditions (which means mud and sand).

The reason they were selected by the IDF is because they were more reliable in the army's trials.

They are a kind of AK-47 in bullpup configuration.

Exactly. This rifle has been used worldwide by the IDF and a number of other militaries that didn't find any if these problems the tier one commandos at Arfcom think they've discovered.

 

Did not discover it, and never claimed to be "Tier 1," but I recognize your concern and the reality that it is a well fielded rifle.
However, I do not wish to discuss my "creds" here, but I actually like bullpups, and was issued an AUG for several years (which I had a few dislikes with as well).  

I mentioned my complaints/concerns, and I will stick by them.

Despite the Tavor lovers here (who waited years) I do not find it to be the perfect "Grail" of weapon platforms.

This.  I really, really like my Tavor.  But even with the new Geissele trigger, it's not supplanting my ARs in the "social arsenal" any time soon.

The Tavor's success is IMO based on it's Supernatural balance compared to any other rifle on the Market. I have Ar's Ak's Lever Guns and the Tavor. Personally I don't care that much for the looks. What sold me on buying one is how easily you can shoot it one handed. What other gun can you balance that well and actually make hits? Without practice:

This.  Breaking your firing grip to dump the mag doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy. I tried this for a few hours one day and came back with a pretty sore wrist. Not like you couldn't get used to it but it is not as easy as pushing a button. Also, in the Tavor mag change video posted, the guy has obviously loading his mag with 2 rounds and is already anticipating bolt lock. His hand is off the gun going for a full mag within milliseconds of taking his 2nd shot. This is somewhat misleading.

Let the KoolAid guzzling begin!! I love my Tavor but I am realistic about its limitations.With a battery assist device on an AR, there simply isn't anything faster when it comes to mag changes. I've seen folks alot better than I am have a new mag inserted and the bolt slammed home on an AR almost before the empty mag has hit the ground. I agree with you on updating the Tavor to make it lighter. If any of you remember, I am the guy that tore my Tavor down to every part and put it back together after having coated it at Robar. Now I totally appreciate my AR for the simplicity of design and the parts count. With the Tavor I had never seen so many screws and doodads in my life!!! The Tavor aluminum frame is pretty light. The bolt carrier rides on the aluminum frame and the barrel locks into it. Most of the weight of the Tavor comes from a heavy bolt carrier and heavy piston system, a super thick chamber and receiver area on the barrel, and the sheer bulk of the stock. Check pics here...

Go ahead and try this at home

I have to admit my love affair with the Tavor has chilled a bit since I have owned it and shot it quite a bit. Before the fan boys start hating, go back on this forum over six years ago and I was the one dreaming of it coming to America. I was there on the thread when Charles Daly went belly up and all the haters said it would never happen. Having owned it now for over a year and a half, I find myself being drawn back to my AR's. I can run my AR faster. And there are so many options and so many after market parts available. I can take my AR apart and put it back together in minutes, not hours. There is nothing I can't maintain or repair on it. If I want to build one under 6 lbs... no problem. If I want a super duper M249 steel double chrome CHF Noveske barrel in 5 different lengths, they are just a bloated credit card balance away. Free float barrel handguards? 300 blk or 6.8 SPC? The more I own other platforms, the more I appreciate the Stoner design. This coming from a guy who owned AK's for years and hated the stupid buffer tube.

I will always love Bullpups. I still think they are the most ergonomic and compact rifles when it comes to balance and how nice they shoulder. Build a 6.5 pound Tavor that takes after market AR barrels and has trigger finger mag and bolt releases that don't require to you break your firing grip and I'm back in.

That seems really cumbersome and that technique is slower than Christmas. Nice manipulation posting that video up. The reason he seems SUPER SLOW is because he is changing firing positions after reloading and then trying to get back on target. The one time out of a hundred where your mag stuck or you missed the bolt release doesn't justify that MO IMHO. I think you could be as fast by doing a standard mag drop and reload even if you dropped the hammer and then had to work the charging handle. As much as folks want to hate Costa, flicking the rifle forcefully as you engage the mag release helps assure the mag clears the weapon. And personally I would think a PMAG would be more apt to hang than a USGI mag, unless it was out of spec.

Have you been in the Military? You don't exactly get a choice of what you carry and complaints about equipment? Good luck. Takes an act of congress to get it fixed.

Many of the M4's shortcomings in reliability are not due to the DI design, but to extraction issues caused by the carbine length gas system. Transition the M4 to a midlength gas system and I am betting many of the reliability issues would vaporize. I was a huge piston gun guy for many many years until I realized they are no more reliable than DI guns, except in those fantasies where you have 14,000 rounds in your load out and no gun cleaning kit or supplies.  The fact of the matter is a DI gun is going to require slightly more maintenance. Most folks don't have the ammo budget to ever test the limits of the DI reliability. The issue that caused this to fail in the video is dirt in the trigger area. I would surmise dumping dirt into the open action of the Tavor would result in the same issues.

Piston guns run cooler and cleaner than direct gas guns.
Most offer adjustments to tweak settings if needed.
(I do not miss direct gas guns)

Buy and run what you like, lube & clean it and both work well.

http:// http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/ar-gas-piston-gas-impingement/

I've owned Barrett REC7's (best piston design period so I am keeping one), Adams Arms, Robinson Arms, POF's and LWRC's. My 2nd Barrett 6.8 SPC REC7 in Robar Poly T2 with NP3 Plus internals on consignment at Scottsdale Gun Club right now-beautiful rifle. I'm keeping my POF 308.

I do not miss my piston guns. Gone is my Adams Arms, LWRC and XCR. My favorite AR right now is my latest DI build with Noveske 14.5" chrome-lined barrel and two-tone desert camo cerakote. I will keep my Tavor and AUG platforms just because they are something cool and different.

Thank you for this.  I agree completely.  Heck, I wish the AUG and TAVOR were DI - for the weight savings and accuracy improvement.

Agreed....nothing wrong with the factory trigger....

If you like shooting DA revolvers that is.

I love shooting revolvers... but I still put the Geissele in as soon as I could get one.  

The trigger isn't as bad as I thought it was going to be but still isn't great.  If only the upgrade triggers weren't over $300.  I'll stick with stock trigger for the time being, the gun shot GREAT at 100 yards w/ the factory sights.