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Link Posted: 10/28/2014 7:57:34 PM EDT
[#1]
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Just watch Gunbroker. One just went for something like $1400 on Gunbroker Saturday or Sunday.
When I bought an A3 at $1625, a lot of other people were buying them at that same price too.

Storefront dealers will always have to pay for their overhead which always corresponds to the consumer not getting the best gun deal possible.
I haven't purchased a gun from a storefront dealer in years and don't plan on ever doing so in the future.
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Links to a new A3 for $1600? Cheapest i've seen in the last year and a half was $1689, and that was after it was discontinued.


Just watch Gunbroker. One just went for something like $1400 on Gunbroker Saturday or Sunday.
When I bought an A3 at $1625, a lot of other people were buying them at that same price too.

Storefront dealers will always have to pay for their overhead which always corresponds to the consumer not getting the best gun deal possible.
I haven't purchased a gun from a storefront dealer in years and don't plan on ever doing so in the future.


Neither do I, I buy online and still haven't seen a brand new in box A3 Aug for $1400. And i've been looking, because i'd like to add an AUG to my collection. Find me a new Aug at $1400 and i'll buy it today and add to the sales numbers of your favored platform. $1400 is the exception...not the rule. Someone who desperately wants to dump it at below cost.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 8:00:28 PM EDT
[#2]
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Really? You want to go into sales numbers? The "How low will it go" thread is a bunch of people hoping it gets cheaper, and being told it's not gonna happen. That's a bad example.

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One should compare the new M1 AUG pricing.


I'd disagree. The M1 is only a month old. The A3 has been around about 7 months longer than the Tavor after the reintroduction of the A3.

With the M1 being a new model, maybe we shouldn't compare it against the Tavor (which has a thread asking how low they will go) when dealers are "blowing them out" (reducing stock) in a stagnant market.


Really? You want to go into sales numbers? The "How low will it go" thread is a bunch of people hoping it gets cheaper, and being told it's not gonna happen. That's a bad example.



Yeah, maybe bad example, but the point was trying to be that the M1 price should't be compared to the Tavor as the M1 is a new model.
Price is always higher on new models due to the novelty, M1 price will drop and maybe if the X95 comes out, then what? We have threads saying "buy the M1 it's cheaper than the X95"?
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 8:03:12 PM EDT
[#3]
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Neither do I, I buy online and still haven't seen a brand new in box A3 Aug for $1400. And i've been looking, because i'd like to add an AUG to my collection. Find me a new Aug at $1400 and i'll buy it today and add to the sales numbers of your favored platform. $1400 is the exception...not the rule. Someone who desperately wants to dump it at below cost.
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You find me a $1400 A3 and I'll buy them all day long…

I just bought an A3 receiver for more than half the price of what that gun went for.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 9:31:23 PM EDT
[#4]
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If an AUG A3 is a "couple hundred" more than a tavor, you're doing yourself a disservice by not being a smart consumer.
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And I really don't see the cheap Aug mod giving anywhere near the same improvement as the good Tavor packs.  I've owned an Aug and shot both with and without the Neu-trigger.  The Neu-trigger helped, but neither the end result or the improvement relative to the stock trigger are equal to the aftermarket packs in the Tavor, not even close.  A $300+ trigger pack isn't for everybody, but it gets a LOT closer to the good AR triggers many of us are used to than an Aug with a Neu-trigger.

Both the Tavor and Aug are *usable* with factory triggers given their intended purpose, no doubt.  But if you compare the readily available options, the Tavor wins there in my opinion.



Also complaining about the price of an aftermarket trigger?

Where I live, the Tavors are running at least a couple hundred dollars cheaper than the new augs.

So buying a Tavor with a geissele trigger comes to more or less the same price as the aug with a factory trigger.  


If an AUG A3 is a "couple hundred" more than a tavor, you're doing yourself a disservice by not being a smart consumer.

Maybe where you are in Brazil .

Here, the Tavors are cheaper than the old Aug A3s, let alone the A3 M1s. And often the differential is such that you could afford a Tavor + a match grade aftermarket trigger for the same price as an Aug with its factory trigger.


Link Posted: 10/28/2014 10:45:57 PM EDT
[#5]
A friend of mine just won a gun broker auction Saturday for a nib of green stock AUG A3 for $1460+39 shipping!  Deals are out there if you watch.  The prices are close enough on both. I would just get one while the prices are down.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 12:27:38 AM EDT
[#6]
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Well there you have it!  If you want a bunch of aftermarket accessories get a Tavor, if you adj. Gas system , tooless quick change barrel and better accuracy get the AUG. They both were reliable for me but one was a 3.5 moa gun the other a 1 moa gun. On a side note I like both better than the FS2k (the plastic switch was a constant worry for me)
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And  the advantage of an adjustable gas system  and a quick change barrel.  For some users, that may be an advantage. But not for all of us.

As for accuracy. The largest influence for  accurizing a weapon is usually the trigger. Then the sights.
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I haven't shot a tavor with G trigger pack yet but if the heavy trigger didn't hender the accuracy of my AUGs or FS2k for me I doubt its going to make up difference in accacy. I could be wrong but by the time you add the trigger & a optic you going to be well past the M1 price.  The QD barrel makes cleaning much easier,  the gas system tames recoil better on the AUG and it lets you run stuff that seems to choke some peoples tavor. There is nothing wrong with the Tavor , I just think the AUG is better.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 9:40:44 AM EDT
[#7]
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Not sure where you get drama or emotion from my post.  I think it was clear that I was comparing an aftermarket trigger to a military issue grade trigger.    I disagree that an AUG or FS2000 with a Nue trigger "approaches" the TAV-D.

I also dispute your contention that "this nations fighters managed to fight and win through many wars with triggers that 'sucked balls' far worse than either the AUG or Tavor have."  Mil-spec trigger pull for an AR is 5.5-8.5 pounds, if I am not mistaken.  Neither my AUG, nor my Tavor had a trigger within that range from the factory.  If you care to go farther back in time, I believe you will find that the factory Tavor or AUG trigger compares very unfavorably with an M14 or Garand trigger.

As for "weaknesses", I assume NSW-Crane issued a certification for one of the Geissele models to compensate for the "weaknesses" of our Special Operations community?

Lighter, predictable triggers increase practical accuracy, precision and speed of follow-up shots.  The best options do each of those things without sacrificing reliability or safety (assuming you can maintain trigger discipline).  I personally don't think those points are even debatable, but feel free to try.

It is a fact that there are two aftermarket options in existence and available for the Tavor that give the shooter those benefits.  I am aware that an option exists for the AUG, but if it is available, I haven't been able to wrangle one in 2 years of waiting.  Whether these benefits are worth the cost, is a decision for each user based on their needs/desires.

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I own both.

Before the aftermarket triggers, I would have said AUG.  Now that I have replaced the stock trigger in the Tavor, I would say Tavor.

A TAV-D or Supra Sabra trigger in the Tavor truly makes it a one compromise rifle versus an AR.  You are trading weight for length.  Everything else on the Tavor is similar to an AR, or at least easily workable with some Tavor specific practice.

The AUG contingent will be along to explain that it's a "combat" rifle, and that the trigger is "workable", and I guess that is true.  It is also true, however, that the AUG trigger sucks balls compared to the available options for an AR, or now the Tavor.




Sounds like you've been spoiled into using a crutch to compensate for weaknesses, how have this nations fighters managed to fight and win through many wars with triggers that 'sucked balls' far worse than either the AUG or Tavor? Sure using a machine to dig a hole instead of a shovel is great, but you end up with a weak back. and when the machine breaks down you get blisters from having soft milktoast skin.

I've got no issue with progress, tech improvements, etc, but I think people overstate things more for drama & emotion than rational thinking. Both triggers are utterly useable and can be learned, both are 'better' than many DA revolvers, so I think stating they both suck is a bit much. The AUG trigger beats the Tavor out of the box (by a bunch), the aftermarket Tavor packs greatly improve the trigger but for the price of some $300+ (20% of the rifles cost) and can alter reliability/safety. The AUGs trigger can be modded for about $30, it doesn't affect reliability/safety, and sees improvements nearly equal to one of the the Tavor packs.

Me personally, I have no intent on messing with or spending money on the triggers of either, I plan to learn and master them both, but to each his own



Not sure where you get drama or emotion from my post.  I think it was clear that I was comparing an aftermarket trigger to a military issue grade trigger.    I disagree that an AUG or FS2000 with a Nue trigger "approaches" the TAV-D.

I also dispute your contention that "this nations fighters managed to fight and win through many wars with triggers that 'sucked balls' far worse than either the AUG or Tavor have."  Mil-spec trigger pull for an AR is 5.5-8.5 pounds, if I am not mistaken.  Neither my AUG, nor my Tavor had a trigger within that range from the factory.  If you care to go farther back in time, I believe you will find that the factory Tavor or AUG trigger compares very unfavorably with an M14 or Garand trigger.

As for "weaknesses", I assume NSW-Crane issued a certification for one of the Geissele models to compensate for the "weaknesses" of our Special Operations community?

Lighter, predictable triggers increase practical accuracy, precision and speed of follow-up shots.  The best options do each of those things without sacrificing reliability or safety (assuming you can maintain trigger discipline).  I personally don't think those points are even debatable, but feel free to try.

It is a fact that there are two aftermarket options in existence and available for the Tavor that give the shooter those benefits.  I am aware that an option exists for the AUG, but if it is available, I haven't been able to wrangle one in 2 years of waiting.  Whether these benefits are worth the cost, is a decision for each user based on their needs/desires.




You nailed it.

For the last +100 years the US military has built firearms with triggers  that enhance operation and accuracy potential of the weapon platforms.
(Not 10 lbs or more)

People that try to justify a heavy trigger might want to contact the Army / Marines and tell them they are doing it wrong.



Link Posted: 10/29/2014 12:44:34 PM EDT
[#8]
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Maybe where you are in Brazil .

Here, the Tavors are cheaper than the old Aug A3s, let alone the A3 M1s. And often the differential is such that you could afford a Tavor + a match grade aftermarket trigger for the same price as an Aug with its factory trigger.
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And I really don't see the cheap Aug mod giving anywhere near the same improvement as the good Tavor packs.  I've owned an Aug and shot both with and without the Neu-trigger.  The Neu-trigger helped, but neither the end result or the improvement relative to the stock trigger are equal to the aftermarket packs in the Tavor, not even close.  A $300+ trigger pack isn't for everybody, but it gets a LOT closer to the good AR triggers many of us are used to than an Aug with a Neu-trigger.

Both the Tavor and Aug are *usable* with factory triggers given their intended purpose, no doubt.  But if you compare the readily available options, the Tavor wins there in my opinion.



Also complaining about the price of an aftermarket trigger?

Where I live, the Tavors are running at least a couple hundred dollars cheaper than the new augs.

So buying a Tavor with a geissele trigger comes to more or less the same price as the aug with a factory trigger.  


If an AUG A3 is a "couple hundred" more than a tavor, you're doing yourself a disservice by not being a smart consumer.

Maybe where you are in Brazil .

Here, the Tavors are cheaper than the old Aug A3s, let alone the A3 M1s. And often the differential is such that you could afford a Tavor + a match grade aftermarket trigger for the same price as an Aug with its factory trigger.


New A3s readily available from dealers on GB, in the US, 2 minutes of searching..
$1559: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=449769414
$1579 (multiple available): http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=450320553

I'm not seeing a Tavor + $300-ish trigger at that price, is anyone else?  What exactly was the argument again?

Either way, realistically, if you're spending $1500+ on a gun, while it's worth shopping around for the best price, I also don't see $100 or so as a significant difference in deciding between various mfgrs or models.  YMMV, as always.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 2:07:45 PM EDT
[#9]
I just read 3 pages of GD style derp. What the hell people. There is a difference between an argument and a civilized discussion. STOP IT.

That being said I bought the Aug because it looks cool and I had the money. Same reason I love the Walther PP line. Buy what  makes you happy.
Link Posted: 11/2/2014 11:59:46 PM EDT
[#10]
I've owned both.  First off, shop around and you can find either AUGs or Tavors in the 1500 range.  Be patient.  They sell more often than you think.

I sold the Tavor because I hated the trigger.  While, of course one could learn it, the amount of slop in it was unacceptable.  I never used an aftermarket trigger but the fact you could still move the trigger 1/8th of an inch when the weapon was on safe was not confidence inspiring.  Also, it had a very thin barrel that when warmed up grouped gross-moa.  It is through and through a weapon for infantry running checkpoints where they need one hand on their weapon and one hand on a detainee.  I can't say the AUG is that maneuvarable one-handed but considering what the Israeli's designed it for, it makes sense.  The AUG is the vehicle weapon of choice.

The AUG however has a tough trigger but no slop.  It just breaks with a lot of pressure.  Part of this design flaw is due to the 2-stage trigger design: Short pull = S/A while Long pull = F/A.  The 20/20 (T)rigger (S)ear (M)od completely fixes this issue.  Does it have to be a $100 anodized piece of aluminum... No but it certainly inspires confidence as an aftermarket part that will not let you down.

The AUG is a superior design through and through.  The Tavor is undoubtedly reliable and proven and although I def. have my eye on the x95, it is not as nearly as robust as a Steyr.  Both are great guns but the Tavor should be a $12-1400 dollar gun when you look at the actual products side-by-side.  I'm happy people like the gun as it's increasing the bullpup market irregardless but I don't like the light weight barrel and muzzle rise.
Link Posted: 11/4/2014 2:13:55 AM EDT
[#11]
Easy choice for me as there are no transferable sears or hammer packs for the Tavor.

The AUG can be had in its native select-fire form, the Tavor is stuck in semi only.

Will probably add a semi-auto Tavor in 5.56 to the collection at some point but need to finish building out my dedicated 9MM A3 AUG first.
Link Posted: 11/4/2014 12:58:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Having owned both in the past two weeks, my choice is Aug without a doubt.

I don't like the trigger on the Tavor, don't like how complicated it is to remove the barrel either.  Luckily I was able to mill out a wrench for it.  

Probably doesn't have any ill effects but feel the plastic is flimsy on the tavor around the charging handle area. Easily manipulated with just your hand, had to pull it apart to get the charging group back on after I permanently attached a QD brake.

To me the Tavor felt chunky as well.

Just my opinions, Tavor is a fine weapon I just like the Aug a heckuva lot better myself.
Link Posted: 11/4/2014 5:05:37 PM EDT
[#13]
AUG FTW.

Link Posted: 11/4/2014 11:43:09 PM EDT
[#14]
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AUG FTW.

<a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/elray-photo/media/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/elray-photo/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg</a>
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What optic is that???
Link Posted: 11/8/2014 12:16:54 PM EDT
[#15]
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What optic is that???
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AUG FTW.

<a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/elray-photo/media/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/elray-photo/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg</a>

What optic is that???



Hell, what case is that?
Really nice looking setup.
Link Posted: 11/8/2014 12:28:26 PM EDT
[#16]
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What optic is that???
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AUG FTW.

<a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/elray-photo/media/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/elray-photo/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg</a>

What optic is that???


Looks like an Insight ISM
Link Posted: 11/8/2014 4:43:21 PM EDT
[#17]
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Looks like an Insight ISM
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AUG FTW.

<a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/elray-photo/media/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/elray-photo/IMG_2305_zpsc7a69a52.jpg</a>

What optic is that???


Looks like an Insight ISM


correct. its a custom pelican case I set up for my AUG A3 CQC
Link Posted: 11/9/2014 1:54:20 PM EDT
[#18]
I have looked at the Steyr numerous times but I didn't like the ergo's and the front pistol grip.  I shoulder the Tavor on a couple of occasions at the LGS and decided to buy a Black 16.5".  I have short arms and was concerned about the length of pull but the Tavor works well for my stature.  The Tavor is definitely different than an AR-15 but that is not bad.  The only negative I see in regards to the Tavor is it is more difficult to shoot from the bench.  In off hand and CQB is where the Tavor shines.  After running a few hundred rounds my Tavor has become my Travel gun and it rides nicely in my vehicles.  The short overall length is very desireable around vehicles and buildings.

I can live with the factory trigger but will probably buy one of the two stage triggers.  I really think the Tavor is well thought out design and mine has been totally reliable.  I also like that it can be shot off the weak hand side effectively.  Basically it boils down to personal choice and whether you like Bullpups.
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