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Posted: 6/8/2014 10:05:50 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So i have a question on those...i'm guessing because they are for personal use the lowers can just be made and there is no need for atf stamps etc for construction of a firearm or am i way off? I've been toying with some ideas for a long time and I need to sit down and get them done. Yes. If the result is 26" or over, w a 16" bbl or more, building your own bullpup is no different legally than making an AR lower from an 80% forging. If you're using an existing AR lower, then you're just reconfiguring the stock. |
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Posted: 6/8/2014 7:10:33 PM EDT
[#2]
I built one. The JMT lower is a plastic lower made to look like a billet rather than a mill-spec. There are no alterations to the lower. I used a short pistol buffer system. It measures 28.5 inches without the compensator. It has about a 4 pound trigger pull since it started with a 3.5 pound Timney trigger assembly and my pull bar remote trigger adds little if any resistance. I have a trigger scale coming so I will know more later. No I can't and will not make any of these parts for anybody save your breath. It took way too much time and energy for what the results are. They aren't bad it is fun to shoot but the cost is nearly the same as buying a Tavor.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg |
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Posted: 6/8/2014 7:14:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I built one. The JTM lower is a plastic lower made to look like a billet rather than a mill-spec. There are no alterations to the lower. I used a short pistol buffer system. It measures 28.5 inches without the compensator. It has about a 4 pound trigger pull since it started with a 3.5 pound Timney trigger assembly and my pull bar remote trigger adds little if any resistance. I have a trigger scale coming so I will know more later. No I can't and will not make any of these parts for anybody save your breath. It took way too much time and energy for what the results are. They aren't bad it is fun to shoot but the cost is nearly the same as buying a Tavor. <a href="http://s146.photobucket.com/user/908ssp/media/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg</a> You did a nice job. Thanks for sharing.....and welcome. |
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Posted: 6/9/2014 12:19:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I built one. The JTM lower is a plastic lower made to look like a billet rather than a mill-spec. There are no alterations to the lower. I used a short pistol buffer system. It measures 28.5 inches without the compensator. It has about a 4 pound trigger pull since it started with a 3.5 pound Timney trigger assembly and my pull bar remote trigger adds little if any resistance. I have a trigger scale coming so I will know more later. No I can't and will not make any of these parts for anybody save your breath. It took way too much time and energy for what the results are. They aren't bad it is fun to shoot but the cost is nearly the same as buying a Tavor. <a href="http://s146.photobucket.com/user/908ssp/media/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg</a> It looks like a lot of work. It's beautiful. Would you mind showing us the trigger connector? Unless you're patenting it, of course. |
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Posted: 6/9/2014 3:18:04 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I built one. The JTM lower is a plastic lower made to look like a billet rather than a mill-spec. There are no alterations to the lower. I used a short pistol buffer system. It measures 28.5 inches without the compensator. It has about a 4 pound trigger pull since it started with a 3.5 pound Timney trigger assembly and my pull bar remote trigger adds little if any resistance. I have a trigger scale coming so I will know more later. No I can't and will not make any of these parts for anybody save your breath. It took way too much time and energy for what the results are. They aren't bad it is fun to shoot but the cost is nearly the same as buying a Tavor. <a href="http://s146.photobucket.com/user/908ssp/media/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg</a> Like your work! How does take down work? Do you have any video? |
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Posted: 6/9/2014 8:04:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It looks like a lot of work. It's beautiful. Would you mind showing us the trigger connector? Unless you're patenting it, of course. I use a rod in a tube. The rod is pulled. There are slots in the tube for arms to engage the rod. The arms engage slots in the rod. You can see the tube running from the front grip trigger assembly. The rear lever pivots on an extended front trigger pin. Both levers use the same length levers so the trigger pull is the same as it was to start with except for a tiny increase in friction which honestly isn't noticeable but I won't argue is not there. The front trigger pivot bar pivots in ball bearings. I try to get some pictures of it disassemble. It is not built for field break down. It more complicated. http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012491_zps1ed2a73a.jpg |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 4:47:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use a rod in a tube. The rod is pulled. There are slots in the tube for arms to engage the rod. The arms engage slots in the rod. You can see the tube running from the front grip trigger assembly. The rear lever pivots on an extended front trigger pin. Both levers use the same length levers so the trigger pull is the same as it was to start with except for a tiny increase in friction which honestly isn't noticeable but I won't argue is not there. The front trigger pivot bar pivots in ball bearings. I try to get some pictures of it disassemble. It is not built for field break down. It more complicated. <a href="http://s146.photobucket.com/user/908ssp/media/machinework/_1012491_zps1ed2a73a.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012491_zps1ed2a73a.jpg</a> Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It looks like a lot of work. It's beautiful. Would you mind showing us the trigger connector? Unless you're patenting it, of course. I use a rod in a tube. The rod is pulled. There are slots in the tube for arms to engage the rod. The arms engage slots in the rod. You can see the tube running from the front grip trigger assembly. The rear lever pivots on an extended front trigger pin. Both levers use the same length levers so the trigger pull is the same as it was to start with except for a tiny increase in friction which honestly isn't noticeable but I won't argue is not there. The front trigger pivot bar pivots in ball bearings. I try to get some pictures of it disassemble. It is not built for field break down. It more complicated. <a href="http://s146.photobucket.com/user/908ssp/media/machinework/_1012491_zps1ed2a73a.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012491_zps1ed2a73a.jpg</a> I like it, think what you could do with a forward or side charging upper, no charging handle in your mouth 
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:30:11 PM EDT
[#8]
I agree entirely. I actually built my own side charging handle on my LR308 rifle but it is reciprocating which wouldn't work on a bullpup. I built a Faxon upper in a bullpup configuration it has a front mounted folding non reciprocating bolt handle and should solve that issue plus it is an inch shorter than the AR bullpup. But it is heavier than the AR version. It isn't done yet so I can make it a bit lighter.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012496_zps368fd350.jpg |
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Posted: 6/10/2014 7:45:15 PM EDT
[#9]
I think I like your left side mag release do you have any more details in that area? Can we see the rifle with a mag in it and maybe how you would change a mag in a video?
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Posted: 6/10/2014 8:49:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Even nicer.......good work!
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Posted: 6/10/2014 9:05:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Has anyone tried something like this? A lever transfers the spring action instead of a direct spring:
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Posted: 6/10/2014 11:28:34 PM EDT
[#12]
We're going to need a picture of your mill. That's flipping gorgeous. How much does it weigh?
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Posted: 6/11/2014 4:40:20 AM EDT
[#13]
This picture is a few years old now. I wish the shop was this clean ;) now. But it hasn't changed all that much.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/Mics/_1011973_zps4811706a.jpg |
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Posted: 6/11/2014 9:10:11 AM EDT
[#14]
908ssp,
The image of your shop reminds me to a special time in my life, back in the 1970's - 1980's, when I had the privileged use of a small farm machine shop, on the top of a hill, tucked away in the hinterlands of Connecticut. Ideas which previously were held captive on paper, now came to life. Thanks for the fond memories. 
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Posted: 6/11/2014 8:26:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Were the guns in metal working? I know that might seem a strange question but I make light-sabers and people ask me that. In one picture it looks like you have a upside down trigger in the handle of the AR is that a workable charging handle? If so did it reciprocate? That location is a little like the M17 but better. I really don't like the charging handle location on an stock AR. I built My 308 AR with the charging handle on the left side of the bolt but you have to be careful not to leave your thumb sticking up.
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Posted: 6/12/2014 2:07:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Re the eight images shown, above: All guns in metal are working guns; The experimental saboted rounds, shown in the upper-right corner, are based on a .375x.308 Winchester wildcat and use various designs of Delrin sabots turned on a South Bend lathe; The Bullpup shown incorporates an electronically-actuated trigger-sear system; What looks like an upside-down trigger in the Carrying Handle of an AR, is the Retracting Handle in a Sudanese Model AR-10, shown here with a semi-automatic Lower Receiver of my own design. The Retracting Handle is non-reciprocating (as is the push-down-first Retracting Handle in the Portuguese Model AR-10); The image in the lower-right corner of the group captures yours truly firing a Tracer round from a .50 BMG chambered Bullpup, at some 1500 yards, at dusk.
I have an American Spirit Arms .308 rifle with a side-Charging Handle --- it is non-reciprocating, as well. |
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Posted: 6/12/2014 8:04:27 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone tried something like this? A lever transfers the spring action instead of a direct spring: http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/Gulftanker/bullpup_zps74f50781.jpg Ares is trying something similar in their NY compliant conventionally stocked ARish rifle. AR bolt & upper, FAL type bolt carrier. |
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Posted: 6/12/2014 8:08:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ares is trying something similar in their NY compliant conventionally stocked ARish rifle. AR bolt & upper, FAL type bolt carrier. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Has anyone tried something like this? A lever transfers the spring action instead of a direct spring: http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/Gulftanker/bullpup_zps74f50781.jpg Ares is trying something similar in their NY compliant conventionally stocked ARish rifle. AR bolt & upper, FAL type bolt carrier. That's more of a semi-auto shotgun setup though, just a recoil rod in an angled spring tube, nothing really revolutionary. |
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Posted: 6/12/2014 3:08:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone tried something like this? A lever transfers the spring action instead of a direct spring: I like the idea. It reminds me of the counterbalanced AK107 a little in that your buffer and spring would be moving forward. I'll poke around my mechanism design book to see if that motion can be more linear behind the carrier with some sort of clever linkage. |
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Posted: 6/12/2014 3:57:15 PM EDT
[#20]
What about an extension spring mounted underneath the BCG with a metal piece coming up behind the BCG attached to said spring? Fire, BCG comes back and stretches spring, slows down, maximum force at this point in the cycle, just like a compression spring system, slams BCG home. You may need to add some rails for the metal piece to aid in smoothness and finding the right spring may be a PITA but it could work. and not take up the least amount of space. |
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Posted: 6/12/2014 4:00:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What about an extension spring mounted underneath the BCG with a metal piece coming up behind the BCG attached to said spring? Fire, BCG comes back and stretches spring, slows down, maximum force at this point in the cycle, just like a compression spring system, slams BCG home. You may need to add some rails for the metal piece to aid in smoothness and finding the right spring may be a PITA but it could work. and not take up the least amount of space. To fit behind the mag it's "extended" length would have to be shorter than the difference between the magazine length and the carrier length, which is shorter than the stroke. So it won't work unless you run it beside the mag, which makes it fat. |
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Posted: 6/13/2014 10:34:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To fit behind the mag it's "extended" length would have to be shorter than the difference between the magazine length and the carrier length, which is shorter than the stroke. So it won't work unless you run it beside the mag, which makes it fat. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What about an extension spring mounted underneath the BCG with a metal piece coming up behind the BCG attached to said spring? Fire, BCG comes back and stretches spring, slows down, maximum force at this point in the cycle, just like a compression spring system, slams BCG home. You may need to add some rails for the metal piece to aid in smoothness and finding the right spring may be a PITA but it could work. and not take up the least amount of space. To fit behind the mag it's "extended" length would have to be shorter than the difference between the magazine length and the carrier length, which is shorter than the stroke. So it won't work unless you run it beside the mag, which makes it fat. And on top? I like high check welds
All kidding aside, it would probably be doable for most reasons but may cause your teeth to rattle. In my bullpups I like mounting my RDS/holo higher than normal anyways, not sure if others do as well... And as for being on the side, this may not be a huge problem for most people on their off hand side... A leaf spring behind it going down would definitely be the best for size/shape but I could see how this could be difficult to tune. |
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Posted: 6/13/2014 11:07:31 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the BCG has no room to move at all..... looks like a fail to me.  |
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Posted: 6/13/2014 5:46:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Though I plan on 2 ballanced traditional compression springs and a new carrier, I had the idea to use an appropriate constant force spring wound over an idler to get the unmodified BCG to work.
Mcmastercarr and Century spring corp sell them. I'll poke around a little on the fatigue behavior to see if they can be robust enough. 
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Posted: 6/13/2014 6:12:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Why can't you chop the BCG behind the firing pin, screw on a piston boss instead of the gas key, and screw in a long stroke piston into the piston boss? And throw a spring around the piston?
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Posted: 6/13/2014 7:12:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why can't you chop the BCG behind the firing pin, screw on a piston boss instead of the gas key, and screw in a long stroke piston into the piston boss? And throw a spring around the piston? You could. However, my thoughts and priorities are along these lines: 1.Protect my face with layers of steel 2.Preserve the direct inpingment (keeps it an AR in my opinion) 3. Configurable Ejection 4. Use existing parts 5. Low cost easy assembly and takedown |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 5:58:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I did a rough up showing that you could fit the guts of an AR15 into a bull pup. The trick is relocating the recoil springs but i didn't include those details. The first one is a 20 in barrel and the second one is a 14.5. Let me know your thoughts. http://i.imgur.com/huQJ6Ze.jpg http://i.imgur.com/GemXbfk.jpg http://i.imgur.com/iIY7MT6.jpg http://i.imgur.com/iwodRTV.jpg http://i.imgur.com/zcjFDuS.jpg It's been six months, since you delighted us with the first of forty-some computer-generated images/diagrams, and posed the question, "Can a Bullpup that uses an AR-15 [DI] gas system and unmodified BCG work? [60% of those responding say "NO"]" In view of the above, when do you expect to offer us a working Proof of Concept/Prototype of your idea? |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 7:21:34 PM EDT
[#28]
I showed an actual Bullpup from AR parts so how is there even a question if it can be done? This isn't faith it is proof.
In case you missed it. http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012490_zpsa0a3a480.jpg |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 7:24:28 PM EDT
[#29]
After some more work here are the current pictures of the ARAK 21 bull pup conversion. Weighs 9.3 pounds as seen in those pictures.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012505_zpsa0d17d1d.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/908ssp/machinework/_1012504_zps7fec8669.jpg |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 7:37:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After some more work here are the current pictures of the ARAK 21 bull pup conversion. Weighs 9.3 pounds as seen in those pictures. Looks good! I like how you contiuned the magwell angle back to the butstock. It makes it look really put together. |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 8:28:28 PM EDT
[#31]
908ssp,
Indeed, I did take note of your working Bullpup'ed AR-15 and ARAK-21 Prototypes, both on the Bullpup Forum and, here, on this Forum. Fact is: While other examples of working Bullpup'ed AR-15 Prototypes have been shown/linked-to in the 10 Pages of this Thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXQk6_dg_c4, http://tinypic.com/r/nxp8jn/5, the OP, to date, has yet to offer a working Prototype of his own ideas for a Bullpup'ed AR-15. |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 10:26:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
908ssp, Indeed, I did take note of your working Bullpup'ed AR-15 and ARAK-21 Prototypes, both on the Bullpup Forum and, here, on this Forum. Fact is: While other examples of working Bullpup'ed AR-15 Prototypes have been shown/linked-to in the 10 Pages of this Thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXQk6_dg_c4, http://tinypic.com/r/nxp8jn/5, the OP, to date, has yet to offer a working Prototype of his own ideas for a Bullpup'ed AR-15. Go reread the first post of this thread. OP asks for our thoughts on the idea. Do you have a prototype of something AR related you'd like to show us? We'd like to see a video of you testing what you designed, SKY-PUP. |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 11:17:32 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You could. However, my thoughts and priorities are along these lines: 1.Protect my face with layers of steel 2.Preserve the direct inpingment (keeps it an AR in my opinion) 3. Configurable Ejection 4. Use existing parts 5. Low cost easy assembly and takedown Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why can't you chop the BCG behind the firing pin, screw on a piston boss instead of the gas key, and screw in a long stroke piston into the piston boss? And throw a spring around the piston? You could. However, my thoughts and priorities are along these lines: 1.Protect my face with layers of steel 2.Preserve the direct inpingment (keeps it an AR in my opinion) 3. Configurable Ejection 4. Use existing parts 5. Low cost easy assembly and takedown backbencher, I think it's fair to state that, having read your recent Post and the OP's Reply, most interested observers would get the impression that this Thread is all about preparing to actually build an AR-15-based Bullpup! Moreover, if that is not the OP's intention, then, he should clarify. |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 11:31:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
backbencher, I think it's fair to state that, having read your recent Post and the OP's Reply, most interested observers would get the impression that this Thread is all about preparing to actually build an AR-15-based Bullpup! Moreover, if that is not the OP's intention, then, he should clarify. And you want a prototype in 6 months? I'm going to test a stock tomorrow that's taken me a year & a half to design. And you want to know when he's going to build a working prototype? Why don't you cough up $50K for OP & then start demanding prototypes. |
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Posted: 6/19/2014 7:55:37 AM EDT
[#35]
I'd take donations for my PDR prototype that I started designing 4 years ago
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Posted: 6/19/2014 12:38:59 PM EDT
[#36]
RDTCU,
I was favorably impressed with the image of your in-the-flesh effort, to date, at building a PDR prototype, based on the Magpul PDR Bullpup http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/554275__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Longziz__1__a_new_way_to_use_an_AR_lower_receiver.html&page=5 (Scroll down the Page to your 11/28/2011 Post. The Bolt-Carrier shown in the background of your image appears to be similar the the Bolt-Carrier design used in the M17S). The Magpul PDR Bullpup Prototype is one of my favorite Bullpup designs. Back in December, 2013, I submitted the following E-mail Message to Magpul Industries C.E.O., Richard M. Fitzpatrick: "Dear Mr. Fitzpatrick: "The 2014 SHOT Show is nearly upon us. And, as an avid Bullpup enthusiast, I'm looking forward to new offerings from manufacturers. "I think the Magpul PDR represents an exciting variation on the Bullpup theme, particularly, with it's ultra-short overall length and welcome ambidextrous ejection system. However, to complement it's extraordinary 21st-Century all-tactical-situations-ready design, I believe that chambering one (or more) of the latest hotshot cartridges designed for the AR-15-length platform makes good marketing sense: .300 AAC Blackout, 6.8mm Remington SPC, 6.5mm Grendel. "Muzzle Velocity/Energy, from a 12-inch barrel: .223/5.56x45mm M193 (55 grain) - 2851 fps/993 ft-lbs; .300 AAC Blackout, 110 grain - 2264 fps/1252 ft-lbs; 6.8mm Rem. SPC, 110 grain - 2381 fps/1385 ft-lbs; 6.5mm Grendel, 123 grain - 2330 fps/1483 ft-lbs; 6.5mm Grendel, 100 grain - 2600 fps/1501 ft-lbs. "I submit that the Magpul PDR, chambered for these hotshots, is a success story waiting to happen. "Sincerely," ETA: And, on a related issue, I today came across, "6 Facts About AR-15 Gas Impingement Vs. Piston," by Richard A. Mann http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-gear/tactical-guns/ar-15-gas-impingement-vs-piston?et_mid=679047&rid=235843475 Longziz' opinion on the subject: "Since it is a bullpup, then the DI system must to go. . . ." http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/554275_Longziz__1__a_new_way_to_use_an_AR_lower_receiver.html (Scroll down the Page to Longziz' Post #43) |
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