Now I'm confused. My new STG sans forward assist has the pinned/welded jadkommando flash hider. I am I missing something?

Hi all.
I have two questions how is customer service for MSAR returning calls e-mails etc?  And how do you know what generation you have I just bought one for my son for a Birthday/Xmas gift and now I see that they are coming out with a conversation kit.
And I was wondering should I get the kit or see if the dealer will take this one back for the E4 we have over 40 AR Mags verses 3-30 5-20 & 1-10 MSAR and I need to do this before Dec 5 any advise would be appreciated thank you.

Hey Dave

You must be really busy and forgot that you have already worked this out for me to my total satisfaction.

Question on the rail on the E4 (forgive me if it's already been answered), has it been changed to be more like the solid rail on the AUG A3?

It was lowered to make the mounting of optics easier.  It's solid for its own sake, not out of a desire to copy the A3 rail.  It doesn't extend forward like the A3 does.

Thanks.  I didn't mean to imply that it was made solid to copy the A3.

My limited Edition came with the jadkammando flash hidder.  I think its a gen 3

So just to be clear, I just got my STG-556 with a 111XX serial, and it has the silver grenade lauching ring, so my flash hider thread would be M13X1L, correct?  Earlier in the thread it said all tulip GenIV has the 1/2x28.  Thanx, Jeff

Not sure what is meant by grenade launcher cut. I have the little silver wire. Does that mean M13x1L?

If you have a STG-556 barrel it will be metric.  If it is an XM17-E4 barrel it is standard AR threads.  The barrels are interchangeable between the two guns.

Are generation 3 STGs still good rifles? Im looking for a gen 4 but cant find any.

Thanks.

They're all good rifles.  Just depends on which features you want or don't want.

They're great rifles and you shouldn't have any trouble finding one for significant savings.

I sold my gen 3 w/ optic for $1075.

MSAR's generational changes killed the resale value of anything pre-Gen4.

What about the rifles that Bud's is selling right now for $1088 with optic? Aren't those Gen 4? I'm just about to buy one so I hope so!!

Gregg

So I finally found an STG in my price range and the guy at the gun store will let me put it on layaway for a month.

I asked him about the generation and the SN, and one of them doenst have the forward assist so that's a gen3-4 and the other has a SN that ends in 95XX. So is there a good chance that that one is a gen4?
And the guy is really cool, the one that I think is a gen4 has the optic, but he'll switch it to a rail for me!

Sending him $600 on Monday. Cannot wait for Mid-April even though I wont even be able to shoot it for a while!

Gen 4's started around 6800.

Somebody here has to have purchased one of the MSAR's from Bud's recently, right? Seriously, I'm sitting here with my $1088 in my hot little hand and I want to buy one. If they are older ones and not Gen 4 or if there is someplace else that "I'm supposed to know is a better choice," somebody please speak up and tell me now!! OK, I'll phrase it a different way: if you were sitting on $1400 or so and you wanted to get "the best deal" for an AUG style rifle, what would you buy and where would you get it? Today or this week so they need to actually HAVE some!

Thanks for any insight,

Gregg

Just got mine on Tuesday from Bud's. It's a 20" GenIV in the 99XX serial range. I think it has all of the latest goodies but is definitely 13x1LH thread. It went to ADCO today to become 1/2x28 for a Vortex.

Thanks,
Lee

Thank you very much Lee!

I don't care about the threads right now. I had an import AUG all those years ago so I kind of like the looks of the original tulip style.

Gregg

What is the model #?  They have several 20 inchers.
Is your 2001RH20? (black, 20", optic) or 2003RH20 (OD, 20", optic)?


THX

Do you guys know if model 2001RRH20C at Buds is a Gen 3 or 4?  And does it include the forward assist?  Sub $1000 today....
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/56924

i.e.... should I buy?  I can't seem to figure out the differences between all the variants Buds has for sale, esp considering none of them appear to be E4s...

The model number won't tell you which "generation" it is, but reports are that Bud's has been selling Gen4 STGs.  The model you listed is a black, railed, right-hand, 20" bbl with a permanently attached compensator.

Thanks for the chart!  One more question though, does it have the forward assist?

Doubtful.  Only the very early stocks had fwd assist.

Should I look for a model with a forward assist or is it unnecessary?  I'm coming from AR territory so it seems reasonable but maybe its not needed on the AUG clones....  I just really like the sub $1000 price for a bullpup...

n/m I see wiki says the Forward Assist was discontinued some time ago due to being unnecessary.  

I guess my question now is, why is my super pro AR buddy bitching at me via email that it needs one and all guns do?!!

I get it, I'm an AR guy.  I have 3.  But why the need to disparage every other gun if it isn't an AR?  And isn't designed exactly the same?

n/m just a side bar rant.  I'm looking forward to my AUG clone now

The only time a forward assist is really necessary is if for some reason, you've eased the round into the chamber slowly and the bolt hasn't rotated and locked.  Adding a forward assist on the AR15/M16A1 was not just unnecessary, it was counter-productive.

If you have dirty or corroded ammo, or a fouled chamber and your having problems getting your bolt closed, what idiot thought adding a forward assist would solve the problem?
1.  Unless you are anticipating that it is going to happen, you're first notice is when the hammer drops and there is no bang.  A type one malfunction.  You could look at it and notice the bolt isn't closed all the way and then hit your forward assist.  It will work (probably).  But now you'll have a round in the chamber with the hammer already down.  The proper immediate action is SPORTS or some acceptable variant that gets a fresh round in the chamber and cocks the hammer....so it can go bang.

2.  Lets assume that you've been having problems and you look at the bolt before dropping the hammer.  You notice the bolt hasn't closed and so you hit the forward assist and finish the job.  It may work once, twice or even a number of times, but it is ignoring the really big issue.  Why aren't aren't the rounds loading normally?  The list of potential problems is long.  Dirty ammo, dirty chamber, corroded ammo, out of spec ammo, out of spec chamber, etc.  Sooner or later, one of those cases you've jammed in the chamber won't extract.  Because you've ignored the cause of the problem.  You'll tear off a rim or break the extractor or have to use a rod and bang it out.  Any way you look at it, the rifle will be out of action.

For all of those reasons, I consider a forward assist to be one of the least desired "features" on any rifle.  Especially when it adds cost, complexity and weight.  Putting an AR15 style forward assist on the original STG556 was a mistake.  Fortunately, MSAR is not a company that stops their ears and refuses to adapt and change.  I know some people have considered all of the various changes the STG556 has gone through in the past years to be a sign of a defective design that needed constant tweaks to make it work.  That's a bit strong.  At worst, it was a design that had flaws revealed during use that maybe, for some, should have been caught during factory testing.  MSAR's response however has been exemplary.  Fixing things that break, modifying the design when a better mousetrap was discovered and evolving the rifle to make it better.  Getting rid of the forward assist was one of those intelligent evolution decisions.  They tried it, found out it was neither necessary or desired and subsequently got rid of it.  Good for MSAR.

Well said.  Forget about the fwd assist.  If you have an AR with a fwd assist, forget that it's even there.  Bad juju to ram a stuck round further into the chamber.

Now, back on topic.  This isn't a fwd assist thread.  

The forward assist was also developed for the silent 'lock and load' application.  You ease the round then nudge the FWA to lock the bolt silently.  We did this in VN in 67-70 when I was there and I imagine it would still work.

Posted this in the wrong thread - sorry

Why is the compensator  permanently Attached? But the hiders aren't
I just bought a gen 4 and didn't see this until I started cleaning things up. Haven't had a chance to shoot her yet.
I guess it's not a Giant deal, just wondering.
What's the E4 stocks and rail conversions going to cost.? Anything else needed to bring this up to E4 status.

I think the compensated version was designed for banned states where threaded barrels and flash hiders are considered evil features.

That's strange, I know I'm NOT in a banned state. (Texas).
I don't know enough about the rifle to know whether to be upset about this or not.
The box end tag has nothing pertaining to any type of state compliance or listing any states at all.
I'm sure someone will chime in that has the definitive answer.

If the model # ends in a 'C', it's a ban-compliant rifle.  Look at the first post.

So I'm lost as to where the modle number is

Can someone take a pic of it's placement? The only number I see on my gun is the S/N and it doesn't fit the chart at all

On the right side of your receiver you will find your SN  forward of that is a MSAR grafic.  Forward of that is a bunch of writing.  I have an E4 mine says

United States of America
XM17-E4/ CAL.223
Bradfor PA

Model number is printed on the box.

Thanks guys!

I checked my box and it looks like I have a factory STG-556/E4 conversion.


Model #: 200CE4-1-RH-16

Doesn't fit into the chart too well huh?


Edit to add: There is actually another model # lable under the top one that says 200-1-RH-16

So it's looking like the gun started life as a black stg with optic and was sent back to the factory for the conversion to the E4 stock. Why the heck would someone send the gun back to MSAR for them to simply slide the stock onto it

I finally broke down and got myself an MSAR STG556 today. According to the above post from page 1 of this thread I am now the proud owner of the 4th rifle to be released into the wild. Unfortunately, though it was a special addition I did not get the knife or case.

It's likely that the rifle originally had the rounded lock area which would have needed to be milled out to accommodate the E4 stock with the square lock.  They probably use this code to designate an in-house conversion.

Are all E4's the same "generation"?

I don't know if anyone asked before, but do Lancer mags and PMAGs work in the E4 versions?

Yes, they do.

The new lancer L5A will work.  The older L5 will not because of the dirt seal rib.  The new models do not have this feature.  IIRC

My STG-556 SN is in the #3300 range, and I believe it to be a 3rd gen, I am correct right?
When I bought it I remember it being presented as a 3rd gen.

Am I wrong?

happy_gopher

SN's are not always indicative of 'generation'  and generation is an artificial construct of the forum.

The short and dirty is if you have a round lock with no forward assist, it falls in the '3rd gen' category