Having an issue using dillon 550B and single stage where my 30-06 cases fired from garand don't set shoulder back enough to fit a SAAMI/DILLON case gauge using RCBS Full Length sizing dies adjusted to contact shell plate plus 1/4 turn.  After reading spring quarterly from Garand collectors association on that window for kaboom in M1 has me concerned.  I need probably .002-.003 more
Will the Dillon or a new RCBS X-DIE set it back enough to fit their brand case gauge--it is the type that has the minimum and maximum points on the gauge?  Both dies set to have shellplate touch die.

ETA:  The loaded cartridges would not chamber in a Remington 700--so my preference is to size them completely even though they seem to run fine in garand.
ETA: Corrected wording because it sucked.  This is what happens when you pose a technical question on your mobile...

Are you using a gauge like this one by Hornady to see how far you are bumping the shoulders back?

The Garand likely has a more generously sized chamber than the 700 but the sized brass should fit the 700 as well.

I use standard X-Dies for our Garand and our M1A not the small base. But I'm loading on a Rockchucker II and adjust for full cam over.

You need to figure out why they won't fit your 700. The first thing to try which you may have already done is to adjust your die down as far as you can for full effect.

One more thing. Did you prep your brass according to the X-Die's instructions?

Motor

Yes, same die on 550B and single stage adjusted to impact the shell plate plus 1/4 turn.

I'm using a Dillon Case guage that is manufacturer to minimum and maximum dimensions from case head to the datum on the shoulder per SAAMI specifications.  I have a hornady measure device like you have but I have not measured pre and post sized brass to see the difference.  I have only checked to verify that the sized case does NOT meet saami specs.

You helped me realize why the responses seemed odd, my wording of the question really sucked.  I went back and revised the OP.  I have a RCBS full length sizing die and am curious if buying a RCBS X-DIE small base 30-06 or a DILLON 30-06 die will give me a case sized that is within SAAMI specifications since my RCBS full length sizing die will not.  RCBS suggested I send them the die and 5 fired cases back for them to work with.  I haven't heard back from Dillon yet.

When I resized with my Lee single stage I have it does no sizing except for reducing the size of the neck since I have the decapping/expander removed.  I also have a Lee hand press, I may try and resize one on that tonight and see if it makes a difference. Good tip.

Good luck on the hand press.

It does not have all that much leverage.

Did you feel the RCBS cam over?

It goes tight and then gets a little looser.

It does take a decent mount of force even with the press going through maximum leverage.

You press till the linkage stops on the 'other side' of the toggle action.

I have a Lee Challenger Single Stage press.  It does not have any cam over functionality.

Are you thinking I may need to upgrade my press from the Lee Challenger Single Stage?  Don't really need an excuse to spend money now but have been drooling over a forster coax for many years--up till now the lee press has done the job.

Attached File
Attached File
Attached File


Here are some pictures of my setup.  I'm not sure I understand if shell holder is fully contacting base of die how it wouldn't push shoulder back enough.

ETA: The ram looks a little crooked and so does my case in the gauge however, hmmm.  Or does it to anyone else?  It's at least a couple thou closer than from the Dillon.  It's damn close to being under the max limit.

This is just me .... personally...if it doesn't fit the case gauge, it doesn't go into any of my guns.

I am not all that familiar with Garands (or Remy 700's for that matter), but I have to wonder is it possible for a Garand to slam fire and be out of battery at the same time???

That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

And forcing the bolt to close on loaded round also sounds like bad ju ju.  It sounds to me like you could end up with a stuck case in your 700's chamber.

Take a sharpie marker, preferably one that still has a good point, and draw a vertical line down the threads of your sizing die all the way down the lock ring (you can also run lock rings on the bottom, by the way), and onto the top of the press.

This is a "witness mark".

Then slightly unscrew the lock ring from the die, while trying to keep the die in the same alignment with the witness mark.

With your shellholder in place, but NO brass in it, push down on the press's handle.  That will raise the ram/shellholder.

Place your left thumb and index finger on the die threads as the ram goes up.

If the shellholder is making contact with the bottom of the sizing die, then your left thumb and index finger should see the die move upwards just slightly.

There is just a little up and down slop in those 7/8ths by 14 threads.

If you don't see/feel the die move upwards ever so slightly when the press's handle is at its lowest position, screw the die in until you do.

Then tighten the lock ring.

Then try resizing a lubed case.

See if that fits the Dillon case gauge.

Whooopppsss!

Let's back up for just a second.

Have you checked out your case gauge for any dirt, debris, excess oil, or excess lube?

Swirl a Q-tip around in some WD40 or Kroil, and then run the Qtip around the inside of your case gauge.

That should be the easiest fix, first.

And then do your resized cases headstamps fit flush or just slightly below flush of the case gauge when you hold the case gauge in your hand?

Are there any burrs around the cases' rims?

Does the mouth of the case or case neck extend beyond flush (aka proud) of the other end of the case gauge?

EDIT:  do you have any brand new factory ammo?  How does that fit in the Dillon case gauge?

Factory ammo is slightly below the minimum spec.  Hornady brand.  My loads are slightly above the top or maximum mark.  Trim length is good and it's not hanging anywhere in the gauge.

Then it sounds to me that your sizing needs to be screwed down just a bit.

Is this brass that has been fired out of either gun?

How does the fired brass fit in the case gauge?

Just curious....

Wayback when...in the mid 90's I had anM1A.

I was sizing the brass too much.  

My brass was getting a ridge or hump right at the shoulders.

Conseuently, my rounds weren"t chambering all the way.

Then I bought a case gauge.  

Let's put one thing to rest right now. If the bolt closes on the 700 it will surely open. Very likely open easier than it closed. The only thing that makes hard extraction on a bolt gun is over pressure loading or a rough chamber.

On the other hand you certainly don't want a snug fit for the Garand.

Since you re-wrote the OP I can safely recommend the RCBS X-Dies and as I stated above I don't use the small base just the standard full length. I'm using them in 30-06, .308 Win and .223 So far no problems and no trimming.

I had a Winchester Model 70 in .30-06 that would get hard to open on some of the premium factory rounds.

I'll have to go back and re-read the OP to see if he actually did say his Model 700 was hard to close.

Use bronze brush and hit the inside of case mouth to remove carbon that might create drag when pull expand ball out and and pull front of case forward also,, use lube in case mouth to reduce drag.

I wondered when this might come up. . It is in fact a Lee shellholder with a RCBS die but since the issue is the same on the Dillon I'm leaning more towards the die is slightly out of spec.  I have access to a lathe so I may turn off enough to get it in spec.  That way it will run in the Dillon and the single stage both.  Other option is to send die back to rcbs.

ETA: old painless and I were talking earlier about me breaking out my files in the interest of experimenting but I don't have the best history of filing things squarely.  

Don't face cut the bottom of your size die. That's a big mistake. I know this first hand. The Id of the die is on a taper. If you cut it you are also reducing the diameter. You will forever have a ring on the bottom of your brass.

Motor

Hmm.  Well back to RCBS it must go then.  I DO want the die to work on the Dillon since 99% of the use is for the garand.

I appreciate everyone's help.  Thanks!

Some points I considered reading along.  

- the .30-06 burns a good amount of powder and cases can get work hardened and develop spring back.   Spring back is just what it says, the brass develops anspringy memory that will resist your sizing efforts.  You may push shoulders back six thou but they might spring back four leaving them too long.   The garand illustrated that to me quite well.  A heat treat annealling is the remedy.

- if you segregate the brass to stay with a rifle i.e. LC stays with the
Garand only (and not three garands) your chamber is an absolute headspace gauge. It is
The one that matters.  Strip your bolt and size brass down in increments until you get the stripped bolt to close with the slightest of drag.  Measure that case headspace and write it down. (Hornady tool and dial mic) That's your rifles headspace.    You can load to 0.004" shorter and be safe.  

-buy the Forster CoAx. You won't be sorry.  If you are you won't lose much selling it.

- if you measure subsequent loadings on the same brass and see your die is
Not getting you a consistent headspace the it's spring back or drag pulling the expander back
Through the neck disturbing things.  (Lack of lube or grit).  Sometimes when you think you have it mastered stuff will thumb its nose at you.   It's not bad practice to log your data even if it seems like overkill.  That's how I caught my spring back the first time using the Hornady tool on 4x reloaded LC brass, brass headspace was long and inconsistent in single stage, Redding FL dies with Redding precision shell holders in 0.002" increments.  I had recorded what shell holder gave me what result and I wasn't getting it or even a consistent.  Use LC machine gun fired brass and you will run into this too.

- IIRC all Dillon dies in common semiauto calibers are small base.

Here is Dryflash's quote from his 2nd post:
"It's not the die but the press. Shellholder flex on the 550.

I never size on my 550, I use the Rockchucker for sizing. "

You still may not be able to size on the 550 because of the flex even after it comes back from RCBS.

I do ALL my rifle resizing on a single stage (Rockchucker) for consistency. That's the key. I also lube inside the neck to reduce drag from the expander coming back through. Do the rest of the prep then put them in the 550 to finish them up.

Try sanding down the shell holder to get more clearance to set the shoulder back on the Lee. You only need to take off a few thou. You can use a flat stone or sandpaper on a flat surface if you don't have a belt sander.

Attached File

New Hornady die with Dillon 550B

Attached File

New Hornady die with lee single stage and shellholder

Attached File

RCBS die with Lee press and shellholder -- also out of spec with 550B.

I appreciate everyone's help.  The 550B now with Hornady sizing die will set past the minimum spec so I can adjust the die to bump shoulder back to the maximum SAAMI spec.  The lee single stage with lee shell plate using Hornady sizing die gets it just barely under the SAAMI maximum specification.  I appreciate everyone's help and input.  I will send my die back per RCBS request for them to take a look at it.  But for now I can get the old girl running again.  

So, if I read all that correctly, it was or is an RCBS sizing die issue???

And using a Hornady die solved the problem???

I am glad you got that fixed.

It certainly was a head scratcher.

Yes sir, updated my previous post for clarity.  Will get the RCBS die back this weekend for repair/replacement.  I've never heard of that being an issue before, but to be honest, I have never owned a case gauge until now.  If they chambered it was good.  Bolt guns set the shoulder back a few thou and on autoloaders set back maximum by die touching shellholder.  Appreciate your help on this one!

Thanks for the informative post.  Measuring with my case gauge .010 seems about right.  I have access to a 4jaw so I may just turn some off myself to get it in spec.

Aaah, the pleasure of having a lathe and some decent tooling.  FWIW, I load .308 with an X-die on my LNL AP.  Initial brass prep is critical for this die, but you will be rewarded in extended brass life.  I use the same ammo in my Fulton Armory M1, Imbel FAL, and STG58.  Brass is LC that I processed myself.  (Hot dang, primer crimps!)

You can try a small batch of brass and run it through your die twice, rotating it in the shell holder between passes.  
This works for me with once fired .308 surplus (machine gun).  They can have larger diameter chambers.  See how many pass the gauge then.

Another idea is neck lube.  If you don't have sufficient neck lube, your neck expander can pull the brass via the neck and stretch your shoulder taper area
out past where it was sized.  This will make it fail the gauge.