User Panel
Posted: 4/14/2017 2:07:10 PM EDT
This is occurring with different headstamps. The machine is clean and runs well except for this. Winchester SPs. Eight out of sixty were like this.
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Make sure your shell plate is not loose, if you push down on the #4 station and it has some wobble you need to tighten it up.
I chased this problem for some time and it was the shell plate causing it, did not make sense to me at first. If you google this and flipped primers you will see this is dillons first course of action. Also verify that your shell plate and primer location are lining up correctly. If they are not you can adjust this by the black block on the left of the press with the 45deg, this is the part the turret advance linkage dohicky activates on. No idea what the proper names are |
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9mm seems to be the most critical. S&B cases do it almost 100% and I try to cull them.
Put a mark on your shell plate and see if it is the same position that does it every time. I have had an out of spec shell plate before. They are hardened, so fixing this yourself is nearly impossible. Lastly, loosen the two screws on your primer feeder and make sure that the seater is centered in the shell plate slot. I believe the instructional video tells you to do this while actually seating a primer and then tighten the screws. I also had one shell retainer button that I had to reduce the o.d. on to keep it from interfering with the 9mm cases. Essentially, use good light, put on your reading glasses or magnifier, and take a real good look at what is happening. Make sure you didn't mix up the large and small primer feeder parts. Shit happens. And what the guy that posted above my post said, along with adjusting that black locator, you can actually get it too tight. I backed mine off very slightly so the shell plate can find center. Make sure your shell plate slots are clean and free of debris or tumbling media. |
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Dillon also recommends adjusting the position of the leaf spring that acts as the locator pin so that it's about the thickness of a business card away from the case when it comes to rest above the primer. This will allow the case to float a little and the arriving primer can actually true up the case in the station.
There an entire section on how to fix this in the back of the 650 manual. |
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Dillon also recommends adjusting the position of the leaf spring that acts as the locator pin so that it's about the thickness of a business card away from the case when it comes to rest above the primer. This will allow the case to float a little and the arriving primer can actually true up the case in the station. There an entire section on how to fix this in the back of the 650 manual. View Quote |
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how stable is your bench ?
When I moved, I tried to setup my 650 on a small temporary bench it was too flimsy and I started tipping primers. the 650 likes a SOLID bench. . |
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how stable is your bench ? When I moved, I tried to setup my 650 on a small temporary bench it was too flimsy and I started tipping primers. the 650 likes a SOLID bench. . View Quote I added a 3/4" thick piece of plywood under the 3/8" ply and ran 2x4s from front to back for the strong mount to bolt into. Much more solid and the press doesn't move around near as much during the upstroke or pushing forward on the handle when west gets a primer. |
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I see this far more often with Winchester primers. Changed to CCIs and the problem went away
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Dano526, beer is owed. I'll be in CO sooner or later on my way to the big square state above it.
Chase, the bench is super solid. No doubts about it. Allcon, I will tear apart the primer assembly later today per Dano's instructions. Also, I have a problem with 147gr 9mm rounds not passing Dillon case gauge. They're loaded to 1.13. All Dillon dies, sizing die adjust per Dillon instructions, neck tension set to .379. Do I have a problem or should I just bump the COAL down to 1.1 flat or so? |
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You have to determine if the issue is OAL or case is oversized first.
Once you know, then you can correct the problem. |
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Easy fix, Pull your primer assembly off the machine. Pull the prime tube, and rotary primer disc off the assembly. Pull the primer punch housing off the machine. Now, lets start from scratch, Primer punch assembly. If the punch is protruding above the housing top surface, you need to pull the primer punch assembly apart to clean the debris out of it that is not allowing the punch to drop all the way back down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://youtu.be/Ufbuc6FBXFY If the punch is recessed below the top of the housing, then get Dillon on the phone to send you are replacement punch assembly. Bottom line it, the primer punch should be flush with the top of the housing!!!! http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w128/pbucket_pics/reloading%20gear/P1010224.jpg Next thread the primer punch into the sub plate and tighten it, and make sure that the top of the housing and face of the primer punch is flush with the sub plate surface. .001" to .003" (thickness of about a sheet of paper is fine), but the top of punch face and housing face should not be proud, or way low of the sub plate surface. If you have problems here, then get Dillon on the phone, since you may need both a new primer punch assembly, as well as a new sub plate if you have peen the hell out of the sub plate bottom by over tightening the primer punch assembly. Here, the top of primer punch and punch housing assembly top surface is way too low to the face of the sub plate and you can see how the primers are not only dropping down to the punch surface, but carving the surface of the sub assembly out as the primers not used are carrier to the ski ramp afterwards as well. http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w128/pbucket_pics/reloading%20gear/P1010209.jpg Onto the primer assembly. Start with the primer tube, and check the bottom of it (brass section) to make sure that is clean/bur free, and not oblonged where the primer is going to drop out of the tube brass section. Most of the time you can just clean up the ID of the brass section to fix any flaws, but something you may need a new tube if the ID is way gone instead. Next, put the tube in the blast sheild and seat the tube all the way into the assembly channel, then look at the bottom of the primer assembly to make sure that the end of the tube brass section is flush with the bottom surface of the primer assembly face. Again, .001" to .003" is not bad for the end of the tube being slightly higher than the assembly surface, but you don't want more than this (end of the tube flush with the surface of the primer assembly being ideal ). Here, most of the time is just a peen edge on the brass section seating flange lip that is holding the tube up in the step channel that just needs to be resolve instead, but some time you have a miss match that needs to be resolved instead. Before you install the primer carrier back in the carrier, take a look at the wave washer (5) for the carrier center pin. This is the correct way that the wave washer should be sitting, and don't forget to lightly grease. Also double check the rotary primer disc channels to make sure that you don't have a bur on one of them cause a less then stellar drop out of the tube to the disc channel to cause a problem there. https://www.dillonprecision.com/docs/650_Pg_53.pdf Regarding the plastic primer follower rod, put a 45ACP on the top button of it to add a touch more weight to the follower tube. Next of the list, break out your sub plate alignment tool, and make sure that the sub plate is correctly indexed to the tool head. I bring this up, since one of you tool heads may be off and needs to be replaced to match the rest of your sets. Not only this, but double check the amount of tension you have on the case rims at primer via the tension tab, and make sure that if you are using crimped primer pockets, that the crimps have been swagged out with enough radus taper to the primer pocket that the primer can find and enter the case primer channel cleanly a well. Note, reason that I really like the 1050, and keep the swager in play. Hence some cases the primer pocket pocket entry radius sucks to begin with (too dam sharp entry walled or still has some remnants of primer staking), and when you start adding in rims that are not ideal sized as well (rim tension via the primer assembly tension tab not centering the case in the shell plate over the ram), the primer really has no chance in hell of entering the case primer channel cleanly to start with isntead; even if the case primer pocket is sitting dead center over the primer punch with primer on top of it. Some will say that they will not use such and such brass, but if you just run the brass through a swager to clean up and taper the entry taper into the primer channel to correct the problem, it does solve a lot of the brass priming problems isntead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://youtu.be/rxe8xt_u1NI Lastly, make sure that you have the correct primer tube and the correct primer carrier in play for the primer sizes being used. Way too may times, the problem is either a large primer tube, or large rotary primer disc (or both) being used for small primers that cause a problem isntead. So to sum it up, we want the brass section of the primer tube to be clean so no primers can flip in there, dam near zero gap between the bottom of the tube and the rotary disc so the primers don't have a place to flip as they are dropping into the channels, the surface that the primers are riding along, flush all the way to the primer ram so the primers can not flip there, and as well as the primer tube clean with enough weight on the primer stack via the 45ACP case on the plastic follower rod to keep the from flipping in the tube stack. From there, all you have left is to make sure that the sub plate and shell carrier is correctly indexed, as well as the cases primer pocket raduis correctly, so during the only last of time that the primer is not being captive (on the punch and into the primer pocket), it a clean shot up with nothing for the primer edge to catch to flip the primer. Note, when you are adjusting the shell plate indexing, make sure that the indexing tab is indexing the shell carrier all the way to the next potions, and not just the indexing ball pulling the shell plate into the final position. I bring this up, since the first mod you do for 9mm is clip the indexing ball spring and install a mylar ball so the shell plate is not snapping the last of the way to spill powder, and if you don't have the shell indexing set correctly, then the shell primer pocket is not going to be in the correct position to receive a primer to being with. Sub plate indexing and primer assembly to primer punch a touch(primer assembly not indexed to primer punch when the assembly was reseated and bolt tightened) , and the shell plate way the hell out of tune as well. http://i.imgur.com/XuO73uG.jpg If you have any question, then post photo's of your parts/problems, and I can walk you through the needed corrections. View Quote |
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Looks like I need that tool, this happened during a small run after cleaning and checking everything per Dano's instructions today.
At least the Lee FCD put out consistently good ammo, no more case gauge problem. Attached File Attached File |
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Often overlooked and just as important as the platform alignment tool if not more, is the primer punch alignment tool.
Get both and use the primer punch alignment tool after the platform is set proper. |
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If you bought the 650 used, you should be able to get a full refurbish from dillon
they will rebuild it, good as new, and it won't cost you a dime, except the shipping to AZ . |
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Looks like I need that tool, this happened during a small run after cleaning and checking everything per Dano's instructions today. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/109690/IMG-1380-190496.JPG View Quote |
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Often overlooked and just as important as the platform alignment tool if not more, is the primer punch alignment tool. Get both and use the primer punch alignment tool after the platform is set proper. View Quote |
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I looked for this tool on Dillon's website and couldn't find it. Any more information on it? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Often overlooked and just as important as the platform alignment tool if not more, is the primer punch alignment tool. Get both and use the primer punch alignment tool after the platform is set proper. |
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I had that problem with my 650.
Called Dillon and was told I wasn't pulling the handle correctly. I carefully explained to the guy on the phone that I had loaded 50,000+ rounds on a 550. No, he said, you are not pulling the handle correctly. I called again. Anndd again. Same story each time. I was losing 3% or more primers. Too many. I talked to a guy at SHOT who showed me how to adjust the little gate on the shell holder at station 2. The thickness of a business card is what you want, he said. I did that. NO joy. Fiddled with it. Never worked right. Put the 650 aside and used one of the 550s for awhile. Finally ordered a new primer system for large primers-I was loading 45 acp. Bingo! Tolerance stacking I suppose. Thing works great now. I have never figured out what the problem was as it came from the factory. |
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Sub plate alignment tool en route from Dillon!
FYI, bullets are .356. |
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The alignment tool will get the sub plate indexed with the tool head correctly.
if the indexing is set correctly, will get the shell plate indexed with the sub plate correctly. Again, we do not want to make the index ball to pull the shell carrier all the way over the last of the way, its the indexing that should be adjusted correctly to push the shell carrier all the way to the next position perfectly instead. If you need to check this, pull the indexer ball and spring, put the shell plate back on, and with light finger tension on the shell carrier, index the shell plate via the handle to confirm that the shell plate indexer has been adjusted correctly. When you install the primer assembly to the sub plate, cam the handle all the way up and back to get the primer rod through the primer rotary disc with the shell plate remove, and tweak the primer assembly as you are tightening the two primer assembly bolt, to get the channel in the rotary primer disc dead center on the primer punch. If all is good, and you did the checks I mentioned above, then the primer is flipping as is clearing the rotary carrier channel, but before it seats into the hull channel. It could be as simple as the primer assembly retainer tab lever not being adjusted correctly for the case rim in play to get the case primer pockets center of primer rod, it could be a bur on the top of the primer punch that is not lifting the primer level, or as started, the cases need to be swaged to get a taper raduis into the primer pocket so the primers can enter the case primer pockets cleanly. The primer retainer tab is pretty easy to adjust, and with the case pushed to the lever to just rim touch it, should be able to look straight down the case primer flash hole to see the center of the primer punch. On the primer punches, when I have the spring removed so I can clean it, will make sure that the edges of the primer rod face are not shape or bur'd, so if the primer does need to slightly shift of the primer punch to center in the case primer pocket, the primer can do so cleanly. Hence will use some 4oo wet dry with the punch spinning in the housing to slightly break the edges of the primer punch face to every so slightly bevel them, and even polish the face as well of the punch to make sure it dead flat. As for cases, if you do have a primer that is flipping instead of entering the primer pocket cleanly with all the above adjusted correctly, then when you pull the case out that the primer tried to flip on, determine if the case should have been swaged better or not. One last thing, being take a good look at the channels in the rotary primer disc, and make sure that one of them does not have bur in it that is not allowing a primer to drop cleanly into the channel with it drops out of the tube, nor be cleanly lifted out of the channel via the primer punch. Hence here, will take polishing compound on a felt tip Dremel tool to go to town polishing not only the radius entries into the channels both side to polish them, but the channels that the primer will be ridding in as well. To add, make sure that the press is bolt down solid, on a solid bench. If the press if flopping around as you are using it, this alone will induce a great deal of problem. |
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Looks like I need that tool, this happened during a small run after cleaning and checking everything per Dano's instructions today. At least the Lee FCD put out consistently good ammo, no more case gauge problem. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/109690/IMG-1381-190497.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/109690/IMG-1380-190496.JPG View Quote After that, proper lubrication cleaned up any remaining issues I had. One other easy check to make, is to see if the primer cam on the frame is as low as it can go. It's on page 50 of the manual, part #25. |
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On a new machine, should not have any wear on the cam block, but on older machines where you do have wear to the cam block, some times building up back side of the cam block with foil tape helps to make sure that the cam block is pushing the cam lever all the way in to fully index the primer rotary disc before Dillion has a chance to send you a new replacement block.
Or could be that the primer indexer arm tab is not getting a good grip on the rotary disc to cam it to the next position. Or could be a bur on the dead end of the primer indexer arm that is not allowing the arm tab to grab the disc cleanly to begin with. Of could be that the primer rod is not dropping all the way back down into the housing to bind the disc instead. Really, just leave the primer assembly primerless, the shell plate off, and lever the machine a few dozen time to make sure that the disc each stroke is fully advancing so the disc channel is dead center of the priming rod before it start to push through the disc channel. This will check timing and the only thing that would be left, is if the tip of the primer rod is not dropping back down in the housing, which will bind the disc as the primer get stuck on the side of the rod instead. Note, when the disc is bound, the wave washer for the arm has enough give that it will allow the arm to cant that time without breaking anything. |
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Got the primer punch alignment tool in yesterday, used it per the instructions (easy), and ran through 100 rounds of 9mm. Got three crushed primers. Should I call Dillon and ask for the sub plate alignment tool or blame the Winchester SP primers I'm using?
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get in front of your 650 and call dillon tech support
they will probably send out a whole new primer assembly here's some light at the end of the tunnel-- my 650 runs like a top, more reliable than my 550b priming system I recently loaded 1500 9mm, 1000 40, and 1500 223, without trouble . |
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Only issues I've had with my 650 compared to my 550 are due to running the press too fast and small primer 45ACP brass sneaking into the mix.
A sturdy bench, a smooth/consistent up and down stroke, and a machine setup for the intended caliber per the instructions in the 650 manual have been 100%. Totally possible there's a part out of spec, but make sure the above are done first and then do as already mentioned and call Dillon while in fthe not of the press. |
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or blame the Winchester SP primers I'm using? View Quote I had this happen and it was the primers. when i looked at them close they had like a flange, they were rough in a way others weren't. forget what they were but i ended up using them later and avoided them for a while. |
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Only issues I've had with my 650 compared to my 550 are due to running the press too fast and small primer 45ACP brass sneaking into the mix. A sturdy bench, a smooth/consistent up and down stroke, and a machine setup for the intended caliber per the instructions in the 650 manual have been 100%. Totally possible there's a part out of spec, but make sure the above are done first and then do as already mentioned and call Dillon while in fthe not of the press. View Quote |
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Often overlooked and just as important as the platform alignment tool if not more, is the primer punch alignment tool. Get both and use the primer punch alignment tool after the platform is set proper. |
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