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Posted: 9/27/2016 6:44:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Unless you are way over "book" maximum I can't think of a single reason that your rifle would be causing your primers to come out of the casings.
Primers coming out of casings is caused by over pressure loads (for whatever reason) or bad primer pockets. Are you somehow altering your primer pockets by swedging or machining. Do your primers seat with reasonable force? Motor BTW: A AR-10 should work fine with any commercial .308 Win ammo some of which is pretty hot. |
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Posted: 9/27/2016 6:49:28 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 9/27/2016 7:02:54 PM EDT
[#3]
My maximum load is 40.5 grains of IMR-4895 when loading 168 grain SMK's in Lake City brass. You are so far over the top I'm surprised you still have all your digits.
41.5 to no more than 42.0 grains even of IMR-4895 is considered a maximum load for 168 grain bullets, Winchester brass, in a semi-auto rifle. Your brass is toast, throw it away or recycle it. Try 42.0 grains of IMR-4895 41.5 grains of H4895 42.5 to 43.0 grains of IMR-4064 43.0 grains of Varget 43.0 grains of RE-15 43.0 to 43.5 grains of VithaVuori N150 42.5 grains of VihtaVuori N140 These are all close to, at or just slightly over maximum when using Winchester brass and 168 grain Sierra Match Kings seated @ 2.810". Work up to these loads from at least 1.0 grain lower. Look for accuracy, not velocity. Your 16" barrel will limit 168's to between 2400 fps maybe as high as 2450 fps with maximum loads. A chronograph will help in load development. |
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Posted: 9/27/2016 7:15:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Ya i figured those loads were too hot. I was trying to get close to the NATO velocities. I have some NATO rounds and out of my 16" 308AR i clocked them at 2750fps. (147gr FMJ)
as for my primer pockets I swage all my pockets and they do have force when I put in new primers, not super hard, and I cannot say what is reasonable because everyone's grip strength is different and I do not have a Inch pounds guage on my primer seater. |
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Posted: 9/27/2016 7:30:07 PM EDT
[#5]
NATO pressures and velocities also call for staked primers.
Close, but H4895 is NOT identical to IMR 4895. Start MAX IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 41.0 2,514 47,400 PSI 44.0C 2,692 57,800 PSI Hodgdon 4895 .308" 2.800" 39.0 2,497 45,100 PSI 43.0C 2,727 59,900 PSI BULLET WEIGHT 168 GR. SIE HPBT |
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Posted: 9/27/2016 8:09:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NATO pressures and velocities also call for staked primers. NATO 7.62x51 loads are LESS than 308WIN. |
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Posted: 9/27/2016 9:48:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NATO 7.62x51 loads are LESS than 308WIN. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
NATO pressures and velocities also call for staked primers. NATO 7.62x51 loads are LESS than 308WIN. Actually they are not that different. The confusion comes from 2 different types of measurement. But some commercial .308 Win ammo is loaded with powder that is not friendly to older M14 gas systems. OP. After seeing how hot your loads were I don't think your brass prep was the problem. Motor |
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Posted: 9/28/2016 12:48:45 AM EDT
[#8]
Way too much powder!
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Posted: 9/28/2016 2:21:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ya i figured those loads were too hot. I was trying to get close to the NATO velocities. I have some NATO rounds and out of my 16" 308AR i clocked them at 2750fps. (147gr FMJ) as for my primer pockets I swage all my pockets and they do have force when I put in new primers, not super hard, and I cannot say what is reasonable because everyone's grip strength is different and I do not have a Inch pounds guage on my primer seater. If you want 147 gr velocity, try 147 gr bullets. The 168gr is 14% heavier, and coincidentally the 147 gr is moving 14% faster.... I have found i get a little more speed (50 fps) out of 165 SST than a 168 smk both over 43.0 gr of varget. But don't buy any Varget I have a hard enough time finding it as it is! |
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Posted: 9/29/2016 6:39:39 AM EDT
[#10]
My loads for 308 using IMR4895 are as follows-
LC 13 brass and 168 bullets- 42 grains max(dependent on bullet type used) Winchester/Lapua brass and 168gr bullets- 43 grains (dependant on bullet type used) |
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Posted: 9/29/2016 9:23:36 AM EDT
[#11]
thanks for the advice. I'll make some ladder loads and see where it takes me. as for the hot shit i'll pull all the bullets and reload them
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Posted: 9/29/2016 10:47:47 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless you are way over "book" maximum I can't think of a single reason that your rifle would be causing your primers to come out of the casings. Primers coming out of casings is caused by over pressure loads (for whatever reason) or bad primer pockets. Are you somehow altering your primer pockets by swedging or machining. Do your primers seat with reasonable force? Motor BTW: A AR-10 should work fine with any commercial .308 Win ammo some of which is pretty hot. AR-10/SR-25 Type/.308 AR style rifles cannot tolerate nearly the same pressures as a bolt .308. This is an issue quite common to the platform. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 12:03:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Folks, his Ramshot Tac loads are very weak. 42.0 grains of Tac with a 150gr bullet is darn near at the starting load data. I'm running near max load data for Tac with a 150gr bullet and I have zero primer issues. This means something else is going on. The brass is either worn out, staked primer pockets were swagged or tapered too much, or ???
ETA: The pressure difference between 7.62x51 vs .308 win is only one or two thousand PSI. His Tac loads would (or should) be well below 7.62 max pressure specs. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 2:49:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Folks, his Ramshot Tac loads are very weak. 42.0 grains of Tac with a 150gr bullet is darn near at the starting load data. I'm running near max load data for Tac with a 150gr bullet and I have zero primer issues. This means something else is going on. The brass is either worn out, staked primer pockets were swagged or tapered too much, or ??? ETA: The pressure difference between 7.62x51 vs .308 win is only one or two thousand PSI. His Tac loads would (or should) be well below 7.62 max pressure specs. Published starting loads in most manuals are very close to maximum loads when using Lake City brass. I have never used TAC so am unfamiliar with it. But if it's burning rate is close to IMR-4895 then 42.0 grains is about maximum. For whatever reason the OP's loads are over the top or he wouldn't be blanking primers. The #1 reason people have problems with .308 in semi-autos is using commercial brass load data in military surplus cases. There is an extensive article archived in this section that lists load data from over 1000 rounds of ammunition run through a Universal receiver while pressure testing each round. Loads are all developed using Lake City brass, Winchester standard large rifle primers, various IMR and Hodgdon's 4895 powder. Sierra Match King bullets were used weighing 150 to 190 grains. It's probably near the back page or two in the "reloading" page. It's as close to a bible that anyone could want when it comes to developing loads in Lake City brass. I'll try to find it and bump it to the top. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 3:10:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Western TAC from Ramshot 6.0:
150 HDY BT-FMJ Start 42.4 grains 2,715 fps to MAX 47.1 grains 2,957 fps 61,478 psi COAL 2.735" Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-12” ¦ Primer: WLR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.308” Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 2.015” ¦ Trim Length: 2.005” If his primers are piercing or blanking it appears his firing pin hole is way too big and/or he has a tight chamber. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 3:23:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Western TAC from Ramshot 6.0: 150 HDY BT-FMJ Start 42.4 grains 2,715 fps to MAX 47.1 grains 2,957 fps 61,478 psi COAL 2.735" Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-12” ¦ Primer: WLR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.308” Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 2.015” ¦ Trim Length: 2.005” If his primers are piercing or blanking it appears his firing pin hole is way too big and/or he has a tight chamber. If he pierced primers with his 44.7 grain load and 168 grain SMK's he probably has damaged his firing pin and will continue to pierce primers until it's replaced. The firing pin tip probably looks more like an ice pick than a firing pin. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 4:24:08 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR-10/SR-25 Type/.308 AR style rifles cannot tolerate nearly the same pressures as a bolt .308. This is an issue quite common to the platform. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Unless you are way over "book" maximum I can't think of a single reason that your rifle would be causing your primers to come out of the casings. Primers coming out of casings is caused by over pressure loads (for whatever reason) or bad primer pockets. Are you somehow altering your primer pockets by swedging or machining. Do your primers seat with reasonable force? Motor BTW: A AR-10 should work fine with any commercial .308 Win ammo some of which is pretty hot. AR-10/SR-25 Type/.308 AR style rifles cannot tolerate nearly the same pressures as a bolt .308. This is an issue quite common to the platform. Does the owner's manual from Remington warn against using any commercial ammo in their R-25 rifles? Motor |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 4:56:36 PM EDT
[#18]
well i pulled the rounds that were made with the 44.7gr of 4895 and lowered them to 42 and 43gr. surprisingly the 43 gr held up with the pressure, no primer bulging or anything. still going with the 42 gr because with 43r i only get a 40fps jump in speed.
the Ramshot Tac on the other hand is a different story max for ramshot tac with 168 nosler is 44.1gr and if i go anywhere above 42.0gr i have a 10-20% primer blow. I also ladder tested benchmark with 155 Amax and i haven't gone above 42gr, i have no velocities for those yet. I'll get them next week. and i'll do some more ladder tests with benchmark. I'll also throw on my can to see if that has any more effect on the pressures |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 4:57:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If he pierced primers with his 44.7 grain load and 168 grain SMK's he probably has damaged his firing pin and will continue to pierce primers until it's replaced. The firing pin tip probably looks more like an ice pick than a firing pin. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Western TAC from Ramshot 6.0: 150 HDY BT-FMJ Start 42.4 grains 2,715 fps to MAX 47.1 grains 2,957 fps 61,478 psi COAL 2.735" Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-12” ¦ Primer: WLR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.308” Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 2.015” ¦ Trim Length: 2.005” If his primers are piercing or blanking it appears his firing pin hole is way too big and/or he has a tight chamber. If he pierced primers with his 44.7 grain load and 168 grain SMK's he probably has damaged his firing pin and will continue to pierce primers until it's replaced. The firing pin tip probably looks more like an ice pick than a firing pin. primers were not pierced. primers blew out as in completely came out of the case. firing pin is fine. checked all my components and head space, everything is fine. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 6:09:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the owner's manual from Remington warn against using any commercial ammo in their R-25 rifles? Motor Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unless you are way over "book" maximum I can't think of a single reason that your rifle would be causing your primers to come out of the casings. Primers coming out of casings is caused by over pressure loads (for whatever reason) or bad primer pockets. Are you somehow altering your primer pockets by swedging or machining. Do your primers seat with reasonable force? Motor BTW: A AR-10 should work fine with any commercial .308 Win ammo some of which is pretty hot. AR-10/SR-25 Type/.308 AR style rifles cannot tolerate nearly the same pressures as a bolt .308. This is an issue quite common to the platform. Does the owner's manual from Remington warn against using any commercial ammo in their R-25 rifles? Motor Not in my manual. Hornady Superperformance commercial ammo has warnings about using it in gas guns but I have had not had an issue it with it when I tried it out. I roll my own though and load light. OP what brass are you using, I found Federal brass to be soft and just a few loads the primer pockets can loosen up. I just tossed a bunch I had in 270WSM. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 7:06:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not in my manual. Hornady Superperformance commercial ammo has warnings about using it in gas guns but I have had not had an issue it with it when I tried it out. I roll my own though and load light. OP what brass are you using, I found Federal brass to be soft and just a few loads the primer pockets can loosen up. I just tossed a bunch I had in 270WSM. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unless you are way over "book" maximum I can't think of a single reason that your rifle would be causing your primers to come out of the casings. Primers coming out of casings is caused by over pressure loads (for whatever reason) or bad primer pockets. Are you somehow altering your primer pockets by swedging or machining. Do your primers seat with reasonable force? Motor BTW: A AR-10 should work fine with any commercial .308 Win ammo some of which is pretty hot. AR-10/SR-25 Type/.308 AR style rifles cannot tolerate nearly the same pressures as a bolt .308. This is an issue quite common to the platform. Does the owner's manual from Remington warn against using any commercial ammo in their R-25 rifles? Motor Not in my manual. Hornady Superperformance commercial ammo has warnings about using it in gas guns but I have had not had an issue it with it when I tried it out. I roll my own though and load light. OP what brass are you using, I found Federal brass to be soft and just a few loads the primer pockets can loosen up. I just tossed a bunch I had in 270WSM. He's using Lake City military brass. I bumped an old article to the top of the reloading page with Lake City brass test loads through a pressure gun so he could compare data. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 7:12:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Every autoloader 308 I've ever owned started showing pressure somewhere between 5-10% below published max.
Maybe that's just my luck but I stick to the mild stuff. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 7:17:57 PM EDT
[#23]
308ARs tend to show ejector swipes before they hit max unless you have an adjustable gas block. Like the last poster I load my R25 fairly light. For timing and accuracy I have found BL-C2 to be great in my rifle, along with IMR4895 at low to mid level. My IMR 4895 load is 42.5 grains under a 165 B-Tip or for a lighter load that is more accurate, the same weight of BL-C2.
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Posted: 9/30/2016 7:24:52 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well i pulled the rounds that were made with the 44.7gr of 4895 and lowered them to 42 and 43gr. surprisingly the 43 gr held up with the pressure, no primer bulging or anything. still going with the 42 gr because with 43r i only get a 40fps jump in speed. r the Ramshot Tac on the other hand is a different story max for ramshot tac with 168 nosler is 44.1gr and if i go anywhere above 42.0gr i have a 10-20% primer blow. I also ladder tested benchmark with 155 Amax and i haven't gone above 42gr, i have no velocities for those yet. I'll get them next week. and i'll do some more ladder tests with benchmark. I'll also throw on my can to see if that has any more effect on the pressures I tried some TAC in a semi-auto 308, it seemed the data way way off as in too high. |
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Posted: 9/30/2016 7:40:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I know this has been talked about before however I cannot find a clear answer. I recently build my DPMS style AR308. when it comes to my hand loads I loaded 44.7gr of 4895 in a Win case with 168 bthp smk. about 60% of the time, the primers are busting out and getting stuck in the lower receiver. I also loaded 41.0-45.0gr of Ramshot Tac with the Nosler 150gr ballistic tip projectiles. With the Ramshot Tac anything over 42.0gr the primers also bust out. However i'm clocking the 42.0 gr of Ramshot Tac at 2400fps. I'm running a 16" 7.62x51 chambered barrel with a mid length gas system with an adjustable gas block. I recently just changed out the spring and buffer to a JP silent capture spring, with the tungsten and a heavy spring. Does anyone have any advice on why the primers are busting out? is my cycle timing too fast? am I overloading my gas system length? does anyone have any reliable load data for 150-168gr projectiles for my system? any help would be much appreciated. PS I also run suppressed, I noted the blowing of primers whether suppressed or unsuppressed. Look at the thread title NRA 7.62x51mm match loads for M1-A's on this page. There is excellent pressure testing data using Lake City brass and Sierra Match King bullets. It's a couple threads below yours |
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