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Posted: 8/14/2016 6:28:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Forget energy, Think more in terms of the actual terminal effect of the bullet. Its all expansion and penetration.
300 AAC can get it done. BUT. And its a big but, it needs the correct bullet. Subsonic anything isn't proving to be super reliable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. You really have two options. Barnes 110 grain load, or a similar hand load. Or something that uses a bullet like the Nosler 125 Ballistic Tip. The BT is not a tough bullet. It frequently comes apart because people who don't know better insist on loading the BT into something like a 300 Mag and then wonder why it over expanded and under penetrated. However, the 300 AAC is a slow speed number. The BT will open well without coming all apart like it would at higher speeds. I'd much rather a load that "only" generated 1000 fps with a GOOD bullet, than a different load that generated 1200 or 1500 but used an inappropriate bullet. Many really really good bullets simply won't do well in the Blackout if only because the little 300 doesnt push them fast enough to get into the expansion sweetspot velocity wise. I haven't tried a 8.5" but I think you are somewhat handicapped. I'd be loading Barnes 110's and going for every bit of speed I could get. |
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Posted: 8/14/2016 8:18:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes, the short version, you want a round that has a muzzle FT energy of around 2,000ftlbs, with a bullet that will perform with the correct dynamic penetration and expansion shot as well (why most hunting regs have a 243 as the min caliber for big game).
Hence the problem with the 300blk, is the heaver type bullet can not be pushed fast enough to control expand correctly, and most of the times you just end up punching a hole through the animal when the bullet does not expand correctly instead. Or worse, you end up using a varmint bullet at higher speeds, and instead of a deep wound channel within the animal to kill it quickly, it comes apart on contact to the animal isntead, and end up with just a huge surface wound to the animal isntead. Hence in both cases, the kill is not clean, the animal lives too long/travels way to far to be tracked and recovered isntead. So simply, unless you are hunting small desert type deer (size of a large dog), don't use a 300blk out for a standard or mule size deer. http://www.ballistics101.com/300aac_blackout.php |
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Posted: 8/14/2016 8:34:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Forget energy, Think more in terms of the actual terminal effect of the bullet. Its all expansion and penetration. 300 AAC can get it done. BUT. And its a big but, it needs the correct bullet. Subsonic anything isn't proving to be super reliable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. You really have two options. Barnes 110 grain load, or a similar hand load. Or something that uses a bullet like the Nosler 125 Ballistic Tip. The BT is not a tough bullet. It frequently comes apart because people who don't know better insist on loading the BT into something like a 300 Mag and then wonder why it over expanded and under penetrated. However, the 300 AAC is a slow speed number. The BT will open well without coming all apart like it would at higher speeds. I'd much rather a load that "only" generated 1000 fps with a GOOD bullet, than a different load that generated 1200 or 1500 but used an inappropriate bullet. Many really really good bullets simply won't do well in the Blackout if only because the little 300 doesnt push them fast enough to get into the expansion sweetspot velocity wise. I haven't tried a 8.5" but I think you are somewhat handicapped. I'd be loading Barnes 110's and going for every bit of speed I could get. I am using the the Barnes and I'm at about 2100 fps. I was just worried about it because when I looked at the ballistics with my numbers it dropped under 1000 ft/lbs at around 70-80 yds if I remember correctly. Should I be okay out to about 125-150 with that muzzle velocity with that bullet? |
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Posted: 8/14/2016 9:13:52 PM EDT
[#4]
This is dynamic performance of a round that will put something like a deer down quickly. Hence the shock channel is drastic enough that it will devastate all the internal organs in the chest cavity as the bullet preforms correctly.
This is the 300blk with Barnes 130gn TTSX, and lacks the Dynamic performance to put a dear down quickly instead. So say short of a clean heart shot to blow the heart up and stop it from pumping blood, then you end up with little chest cavity devastation, and the animal will be able to cover miles before it may final bleed to death instead.
Here is a 300blk out with a 110hp, and although it has good expansion, if you hit a rib/bone on the way in, the expansion is going to happen between the skin and the rib/bone, and may not have any major check cavity devastation isntead.
So again, before you end up just crimping animals to have them run off and die without you recovering them, find something else to shoot deer with than a 8.5" 300blk (read will be lucking to even get close to putting a round into it heart area at over 100 yards in the first place). So again, you want at least 2,000ftlb of muzzle energy, and a bullet that is suited to preform correctly at the speed for a controlled dynamic expansion to create a lot of body cavity devastation as well. |
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Posted: 8/14/2016 9:14:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am using the the Barnes and I'm at about 2100 fps. I was just worried about it because when I looked at the ballistics with my numbers it dropped under 1000 ft/lbs at around 70-80 yds if I remember correctly. Should I be okay out to about 125-150 with that muzzle velocity with that bullet? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Forget energy, Think more in terms of the actual terminal effect of the bullet. Its all expansion and penetration. 300 AAC can get it done. BUT. And its a big but, it needs the correct bullet. Subsonic anything isn't proving to be super reliable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. You really have two options. Barnes 110 grain load, or a similar hand load. Or something that uses a bullet like the Nosler 125 Ballistic Tip. The BT is not a tough bullet. It frequently comes apart because people who don't know better insist on loading the BT into something like a 300 Mag and then wonder why it over expanded and under penetrated. However, the 300 AAC is a slow speed number. The BT will open well without coming all apart like it would at higher speeds. I'd much rather a load that "only" generated 1000 fps with a GOOD bullet, than a different load that generated 1200 or 1500 but used an inappropriate bullet. Many really really good bullets simply won't do well in the Blackout if only because the little 300 doesnt push them fast enough to get into the expansion sweetspot velocity wise. I haven't tried a 8.5" but I think you are somewhat handicapped. I'd be loading Barnes 110's and going for every bit of speed I could get. I am using the the Barnes and I'm at about 2100 fps. I was just worried about it because when I looked at the ballistics with my numbers it dropped under 1000 ft/lbs at around 70-80 yds if I remember correctly. Should I be okay out to about 125-150 with that muzzle velocity with that bullet? If you put it in the lungs, sure. If you don't put it in the good stuff, well, I really hope you're hunting open country or are really good at tracking. I'm really not a fan of the 300blk for big game hunting. ETA: The rifle I shot my deer with last year was a 300 Savage with a 125gr Nosler BT at 3150FPS. That's a 200-250 yard gun in my book. |
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Posted: 8/14/2016 9:16:42 PM EDT
[#6]
I remember reading a rule of thumb - minimum 1,000 ft lbs of energy at range of impact for white-tailed deer.
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Posted: 8/14/2016 9:20:13 PM EDT
[#7]
About as much as a properly placed arrow.....
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Posted: 8/14/2016 11:11:40 PM EDT
[#8]
I wouldn't get too carried away with energy. Its just a number. As I mentioned earlier, bullet construction is everything.
A whole lot of people use 44 Magnum on deer. Generally, thats a 24o grain bullet at about 1230 fps. a bit more out of a carbine. That load produces mere 800 ft/lbs or so AT THE MUZZLE. It's dropped to 600 ft/lbs by the time its gone a modest distance. And yet it kills deer decently even though its less than 1000 ft/lbs. for what its worth, I've owned and shot a 218 Bee extensively. And it too produces about 800 ft lbs energy. It's okay for a wood chuck but totally unsuited to deer. And yet these two BOTH produce the exact same energy. At range the Bee actually probably has greater energy than the 44.. So, I'll say it again. The Blackout can do it. BUT its wholly and entirely dependent on bullet selection. And bullet placement. I;d regard it as a 75-100 yard gun. Need to start stretching to 150 yards? Go get a different rifle..... And for what its worth, the single shot Tompson Contender crowd has been using .300 Whisper to hund whitetail for a good 30 or 40 years. Again, it works if you use the right (soft enough) bullet. |
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Posted: 8/14/2016 11:56:29 PM EDT
[#9]
1000 ft / lbs is a good rule of thumb. 110 and 125gr hunting bullets should still be ok out to about 150 yards or so. After that the ballistics start to make it tough for reliable kill shots anyway give the large amount of drop at ranges much past that.
I've killed 3 deer with the 125gr Nosler BT and have no worries at all with it out to 150yds. With my particular rifle I'm just over 850 ft / lbs at the muzzle, and 662 at 150yds. Lower than the magic number, but certainly still viable if well placed. |
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Posted: 8/15/2016 11:16:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Forget energy, Think more in terms of the actual terminal effect of the bullet. Its all expansion and penetration. 300 AAC can get it done. BUT. And its a big but, it needs the correct bullet. Subsonic anything isn't proving to be super reliable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. You really have two options. Barnes 110 grain load, or a similar hand load. Or something that uses a bullet like the Nosler 125 Ballistic Tip. The BT is not a tough bullet. It frequently comes apart because people who don't know better insist on loading the BT into something like a 300 Mag and then wonder why it over expanded and under penetrated. However, the 300 AAC is a slow speed number. The BT will open well without coming all apart like it would at higher speeds. I'd much rather a load that "only" generated 1000 fps with a GOOD bullet, than a different load that generated 1200 or 1500 but used an inappropriate bullet. Many really really good bullets simply won't do well in the Blackout if only because the little 300 doesnt push them fast enough to get into the expansion sweetspot velocity wise. I haven't tried a 8.5" but I think you are somewhat handicapped. I'd be loading Barnes 110's and going for every bit of speed I could get. This is where it is at. Bullet construction is key. If you could get a subsonic bullet that would open properly at 700 FPS, then it would be fine. Shot placement would be a pretty big deal though even still as you dont have that explosive impact a faster moving projectile has. I use Hornady 125gr SST's. They open pretty consistently down to around 1200 FPS from the testing Ive seen on the 300 BO Forums. They are accurate. They are available. They are not stupidly expensive. I shoot mine from a 16" Rainier Select barrel which is made by BHW, and I have gotten groups as good as 3/4" at 100 yards. I do not have a chronograph, but using 18gr of W296, I would be willing to guess Im getting right around 2000 FPS which is more than adequate to down a whitetail at 150 yards, maybe 200, but thats stretching it. Anything past that, its a nope. Move to a 6.5 Grendel or 225/45 Sharps, etc if you want a small frame AR that will give you consistent performance on deer sized targets. 95% of my shots at deer in the woods here in Wisconsin are taken at 100 yards or less, so its a good choice for me. Some guys hunt deer in the southern states with a 223 with 65-75gr bullets, but Im not taking that chance as I hate chasing deer, I want DRT. 300 BO with 125gr bullets will do that on a larger whitetail. |
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Posted: 8/15/2016 11:46:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Not a hunter but,...
If you are worried about it, don't use that cartridge. Why take something that isn't proven? I've asked why this cartridge is around at all and was told it's for close-in self defense. Okay, if that's true, leave it at home and take a rifle that uses a proven deer cartridge. |
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Posted: 8/15/2016 12:11:19 PM EDT
[#12]
I hunt with my BO and have had no problems at all using 125 grain bullets made by Nosler and I also use 110 grain Sierra's both work well as long as you make sure of shot placement and keep your shots 125 yards or less. If I want to go farther, I pick up the .270 or the .308. Where I do most of my hunting these days the 300 BO does just fine.
The AR platform .300 is great for hunting in the brush where your shots are going to be shorter |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 3:15:40 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't get too carried away with energy. Its just a number. As I mentioned earlier, bullet construction is everything. A whole lot of people use 44 Magnum on deer. Generally, thats a 24o grain bullet at about 1230 fps. a bit more out of a carbine. That load produces mere 800 ft/lbs or so AT THE MUZZLE. It's dropped to 600 ft/lbs by the time its gone a modest distance. And yet it kills deer decently even though its less than 1000 ft/lbs. for what its worth, I've owned and shot a 218 Bee extensively. And it too produces about 800 ft lbs energy. It's okay for a wood chuck but totally unsuited to deer. And yet these two BOTH produce the exact same energy. At range the Bee actually probably has greater energy than the 44.. So, I'll say it again. The Blackout can do it. BUT its wholly and entirely dependent on bullet selection. And bullet placement. I;d regard it as a 75-100 yard gun. Need to start stretching to 150 yards? Go get a different rifle..... And for what its worth, the single shot Tompson Contender crowd has been using .300 Whisper to hund whitetail for a good 30 or 40 years. Again, it works if you use the right (soft enough) bullet. According to this chart https://www.google.com/search?q=44+magnum+ballistic+chart&tbm=isch&imgil=68tpxPg5Bd1-6M%253A%253BPh8l7JBdzMxGYM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fawardsanddesign.com%25252Fccshop%25252Fimages%25252Fen.php%25253Fw%2525253D.44-mag-ballistics&source=iu&pf=m&fir=68tpxPg5Bd1-6M%253A%252CPh8l7JBdzMxGYM%252C_&usg=__8iGYQXjEKMfTn5CRvtclaHMJ32I%3D&biw=1600&bih=791&ved=0ahUKEwjquNW-2NDOAhULKB4KHTyXDf4QyjcIKQ&ei=g6q4V6rrH4vQeLyutvAP#imgrc=68tpxPg5Bd1-6M%3A, the 44 mag is at around 1500-1600 FT LBS at the muzzle and still over 1K at 100 yards. Most people say the 44 is about a 100 yard gun, assuming that you are shooting a rifle. The gold standard is 1000 ft pounds or more for energy. Some states require the ammo to produce 1K Ft LBS to be legal. I agree that the 300 BLK is a marginal deer caliber. I don't know why it's so popular. If I shot a lot of suppressed, then I might be more interested in it. If you limit your self to shots within the effect range of the 300, then you'll be fine. If you will have any opportunities to shoot at an animal at ranges longer then the effective range, please don't tempt yourself and use another caliber. If you want to use an AR for deer hunting, get a 6.8 spc or a grendal or somethiing that has more energy and is more effective at killing. Not saying the 300 will not kill, a 22 LR will, but it's far from ideal IMO. Good luck! |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 3:58:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Just keep you shots close and you will have no issue. A customer tried using a 300BO last year, 100 yards and he shot the dirt under the deer. The round drops like a rock, so bad that you have to shoot like a 600 yard shooter would before it really has no smash.
The pssst clack clack is sure nice out of a suppressed gun. But just a pain to shoot well enough, it is not forgiving for ranging. |
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Posted: 8/20/2016 9:36:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Just to put a different spin on things, Utah DWR requires that HANDGUNS used to hunt mule deer or antelope have 500 ft.-lbs at the muzzle, and HANDGUNS used for elk have 500 ft.-lbs at 100 yards.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks/2016_pdfs/2016_field_regs.pdf
Completely different bullets, but.... |
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Posted: 8/21/2016 12:15:30 AM EDT
[#16]
Bullet placement and shorter distances. Poachers make one shot drt kills using a 22 Mag. Some a 22 lr. Deer are not hard to kill if you put the bullet where it belongs and it doesn't take a lot. Put the bullet in the rightvplace and don't take risky shots.
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Posted: 8/21/2016 6:13:44 AM EDT
[#17]
As pointed out above, bullet selection is the key in these AR rifles chambered in small cartridges with anemic velocities.
The 6.8, the Grendel, the 7.62x39 and the Blackout all have similar velocities , about 2500-2600fps out of a 20 inch barrel. A bullet designed for the 270 will not work in the 6.8, and a bullet designed for the 30-06 will not work in the BO. I hunt MN white tails with the Gendel, x39 and BO. I use light weight Barnes bullets in all(100-110gr). The all work but only at close range, my self imposed max distance is about 100 yards, that's with 20 inch rifle barrels. I would never hunt with one of these cartridges with an 8" barrel unless I was set up as if I was hunting with a pistol(very close range) 50 yards or less. The Bsrnes TTSX has a minimum impact velocity of 1600-1800fps , I have no idea what velocities you get with you short barreled BO, but if it were mine, I would want to know before I took to the deer woods with it. |
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Posted: 8/21/2016 8:03:13 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just to put a different spin on things, Utah DWR requires that HANDGUNS used to hunt mule deer or antelope have 500 ft.-lbs at the muzzle, and HANDGUNS used for elk have 500 ft.-lbs at 100 yards. http://wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks/2016_pdfs/2016_field_regs.pdf Completely different bullets, but.... If you visit the cast bullet forums you would be amazed to see what those guys are taking various game with from deer size on up. Penetration and wound channel is what gets the job done. With cast bullets that typically means a good size metplat. So far I haven't had any luck getting flat nose bullets to feed in the AR-15 300 BO. So instead of metplat you'll need some expansion. Finding a bullet that will expand correctly and penetrate correctly at 300 BO velocity may be challenging. Motor |
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Posted: 8/21/2016 9:16:00 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you visit the cast bullet forums you would be amazed to see what those guys are taking various game with from deer size on up. Penetration and wound channel is what gets the job done. With cast bullets that typically means a good size metplat. So far I haven't had any luck getting flat nose bullets to feed in the AR-15 300 BO. So instead of metplat you'll need some expansion. Finding a bullet that will expand correctly and penetrate correctly at 300 BO velocity may be challenging. Motor Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just to put a different spin on things, Utah DWR requires that HANDGUNS used to hunt mule deer or antelope have 500 ft.-lbs at the muzzle, and HANDGUNS used for elk have 500 ft.-lbs at 100 yards. http://wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks/2016_pdfs/2016_field_regs.pdf Completely different bullets, but.... If you visit the cast bullet forums you would be amazed to see what those guys are taking various game with from deer size on up. Penetration and wound channel is what gets the job done. With cast bullets that typically means a good size metplat. So far I haven't had any luck getting flat nose bullets to feed in the AR-15 300 BO. So instead of metplat you'll need some expansion. Finding a bullet that will expand correctly and penetrate correctly at 300 BO velocity may be challenging. Motor http://www.midwayusa.com/product/614359/barnes-tipped-tac-tx-bullets-300-aac-blackout-300-whisper-308-diameter-110-grain-flat-base-lead-free-box-of-50 |
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Posted: 8/21/2016 2:03:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Deleted.
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Posted: 8/22/2016 11:41:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Try this: Go to various hunting forums and ask for recommendations for a good deer load for your 30 Carbine. You'll be bombarded with scoldings and admonitions, and rightly so, but your 8.5" 300 is pretty much the ballistic equivalent of a 30 Carbine. Will it work? Yes. Is it ideal? Definitely not. The problem with cartridges such as this is lightweight bullets must be used in order to get any meaningful velocity, and we all know that the lighter the bullet, the more reduced the penetration. If the bullet happens to expand, penetration is even further reduced.
I've killed a couple of deer with heavy non-expanding .30 caliber cast bullets running 1500-1800 fps and whIle they worked, deer shot through the lungs died slowly, not pretty. On the other hand, I've killed a half dozen deer, a hog and a javelina with .a 44 Special and a 45 Colt running SWC's around 1000 fps. They all died in short order, much more quickly than those shot with .30 caliber cast bullets even though the bullet energy from the revolver rounds was probably 1/4 that of those from the rifle rounds. Proof positive that bullet energy is not indicative of bullet effectiveness. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 12:03:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hunt with my BO and have had no problems at all using 125 grain bullets made by Nosler and I also use 110 grain Sierra's both work well as long as you make sure of shot placement and keep your shots 125 yards or less. If I want to go farther, I pick up the .270 or the .308. Where I do most of my hunting these days the 300 BO does just fine. The AR platform .300 is great for hunting in the brush where your shots are going to be shorter Do you have any thoughts about the 125gr TMK for the uses you described? Loaded to 2200 in a 16" |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 12:39:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have any thoughts about the 125gr TMK for the uses you described? Loaded to 2200 in a 16" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I hunt with my BO and have had no problems at all using 125 grain bullets made by Nosler and I also use 110 grain Sierra's both work well as long as you make sure of shot placement and keep your shots 125 yards or less. If I want to go farther, I pick up the .270 or the .308. Where I do most of my hunting these days the 300 BO does just fine. The AR platform .300 is great for hunting in the brush where your shots are going to be shorter Do you have any thoughts about the 125gr TMK for the uses you described? Loaded to 2200 in a 16" I don't have any experience with that particular bullet, but I did just look it up on their website and they do have a warning about how the bullet expands on animals, and that it was not intended as a hunting bullet, other than perhaps varmits. I would have to do some extensive testing to be more comfortable with it. I started using the Nosler in my wife's .308, she was uncomfortable with the recoil on the factory loads for deer, so I worked up a load for her with this bullet and it is a light load with much less recoil. So I figured I would do one up for the BO and have been happy with as long as I remember the shortcomings of the round. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 5:17:35 PM EDT
[#24]
True but they say the same I believe for the 69 and 77 SMK/TMK which are considered great performers. The 125 TMK performs in gel better than other rounds like the 62gr Fusion which is often used on deer with good results.
I feel like any rifle bullet performing well in the FBI tests seems to do well on game. I was wondering if you agreed with that logic despite Sierra's warning. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 5:37:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True but they say the same I believe for the 69 and 77 SMK/TMK which are considered great performers. The 125 TMK performs in gel better than other rounds like the 62gr Fusion which is often used on deer with good results. I feel like any rifle bullet performing well in the FBI tests seems to do well on game. I was wondering if you agreed with that logic despite Sierra's warning. I am not opposed to rounds in that weight range, but without testing it myself to work up a load, I would not hunt with it, I would like to see how it performs in gel and such. I know for a fact that the TMK are good bullets and know several people that use them, I just don't have any experience with them, maybe I will pick up a box and do some testing in the next couple of weeks, you never know it could be a gem with the right combination of components. I am sure willing to try and see what I come up with. 
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Posted: 8/22/2016 7:38:08 PM EDT
[#26]
I've deer hunted with a friend who used MK's in a 22-250. MOST of the time they worked, but they are not game bullets as noted by the folks who design and produce them. Gel tests are fine for comparing bullet to bullet performance, but meaningless for evaluating performance in game. There are an almost innumerable number of variables in game hunting that cannot be addressed by a block of gel; hide thickness, wet/dry hide, bones encountered, etc. etc.
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Posted: 8/22/2016 9:33:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've deer hunted with a friend who used MK's in a 22-250. MOST of the time they worked, but they are not game bullets as noted by the folks who design and produce them. Gel tests are fine for comparing bullet to bullet performance, but meaningless for evaluating performance in game. There are an almost innumerable number of variables in game hunting that cannot be addressed by a block of gel; hide thickness, wet/dry hide, bones encountered, etc. etc. There is a lot of variables when you are talking about bullets, but this would be an interesting one to work up and see how it works out. Already have a box of them on order, should be here in a few days and then I will go through my normal process to see how they work out. |
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:10:37 PM EDT
[#28]
There are a plethora of decent .22 caliber game bullets out there, so I see no need in using MK's for deer and the like. I've used 60 gr. Nosler Partitions and know they work. I have a 500 count box of 69 gr. MK's, but load Sierra 65 gr. SPT's and Winchester 64. gr Power Points for deer.
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Posted: 8/22/2016 10:17:30 PM EDT
[#29]
More than energy I would be worried that the velocity is too low to perform as designed . Most bullets have a velocity window they work in , too low and you end up with what amounts to FMJ performance
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Posted: 8/23/2016 2:21:10 AM EDT
[#30]
I wasn't suggesting using SMK .224 on deer, though I think it would work. My deer load is 62gr Fusion over 26.2 CFE223 but I was just wondering if the 125gr TMK would be better for the 300.
Dave, I got a box of 100 of them also. I'm going to work up a load with H110 and WSR primers. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 12:39:38 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 8/23/2016 1:01:30 PM EDT
[#32]
IMO opinion the cartridge is not the problem as much as that it's being fired from a really short barrel, which of course compromises quite a bit of velocity.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 1:47:06 PM EDT
[#33]
I use mine to hunt deer, but I am running a 16" barrel, I don't know that I would want to hunt them using an SBR.
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Posted: 8/23/2016 10:01:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Premises we hear often:
"You need _____ ft-lbs of energy to kill a deer." "You need at least a _____ caliber to kill deer." "You need at least _____ grains of bullet weight, otherwise it's unethical." "You need _____ fps muzzle velocity to retain enough energy to kill a deer." The truth is, you need to either rapidly drop the blood pressure so they pass out, or destroy the Central Nervous System. While many look at bullet weight, I look at Sectional Density for penetration. While many look at muzzle velocity or muzzle energy, I look at impact velocity on-target and penetration characteristics of that bullet. While many look at caliber, I look at expansion threshold and ogive length, combined with typical shank and base structure after penetration and expansion. We have a lot of anecdotes from the last century that cloud our thinking in many ways by ulterior motives and agendas. One of the most well-known American hunters is renowned for promoting a particular rifle cartridge, even though he secretly used .30-06 instead for most of his medium and big game hunting. If you grew up reading his articles like I did, you would think he would have used his pet cartridge more often than not, but because .30-06 was already well-known, it wouldn't sell magazine articles. Then you have what I call the series of old wives tales. "My uncle/grandpa/dad always used a _______ on mule deer, therefore that's the best cartridge." We're at a stage now where we can look at what really matters, evaluate the collective data, and make our choices based on that. A .300 Blackout from an 8" barrel sounds like we're pushing the limits on what is feasible, unless you keep it really close. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 11:28:21 PM EDT
[#35]
As I always say, poke a hole through an animals lungs, and they will soon assume ambient temperature. The key is to use a bullet that will penetrate to the lungs and then poke a large enough hole.
In the last 35+ years of deer hunting, I've used everything from a .22 caliber 50 gr. bullet at near 4000 fps to more recently a .44 caliber 255 gr. bullet at 950 fps and lots of stuff in between. It all worked, but with all of it, limitations had to be adhered to. I'm now of the thought that heavier for caliber is better. |
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Posted: 8/23/2016 11:33:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Premises we hear often: "You need _____ ft-lbs of energy to kill a deer." "You need at least a _____ caliber to kill deer." "You need at least _____ grains of bullet weight, otherwise it's unethical." "You need _____ fps muzzle velocity to retain enough energy to kill a deer." The truth is, you need to either rapidly drop the blood pressure so they pass out, or destroy the Central Nervous System. While many look at bullet weight, I look at Sectional Density for penetration. While many look at muzzle velocity or muzzle energy, I look at impact velocity on-target and penetration characteristics of that bullet. While many look at caliber, I look at expansion threshold and ogive length, combined with typical shank and base structure after penetration and expansion. We have a lot of anecdotes from the last century that cloud our thinking in many ways by ulterior motives and agendas. One of the most well-known American hunters is renowned for promoting a particular rifle cartridge, even though he secretly used .30-06 instead for most of his medium and big game hunting. If you grew up reading his articles like I did, you would think he would have used his pet cartridge more often than not, but because .30-06 was already well-known, it wouldn't sell magazine articles. Then you have what I call the series of old wives tales. "My uncle/grandpa/dad always used a _______ on mule deer, therefore that's the best cartridge." We're at a stage now where we can look at what really matters, evaluate the collective data, and make our choices based on that. A .300 Blackout from an 8" barrel sounds like we're pushing the limits on what is feasible, unless you keep it really close. I know exactly who you are talking about, because I own two rifles chamber in that caliber and have taken many animals over the years with them. I have developed some great loads for that caliber and take it out when the conditions require it. The .300 blk is a great caliber, but it is limited to what it can do! You just have to know its limitations and stay within them and it will bring down a deer as well as any other caliber. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 6:31:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Take a guess at who I was talking about.
The cartridge that became synonymous with his name was one he liked, but he conceded it wasn't as versatile as the .30-06, and he hunted with a lot of other rifles chambered in bigger things when it came to larger game. Elmer Keith hated him with a passion. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 6:43:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Take a guess at who I was talking about. The cartridge that became synonymous with his name was one he liked, but he conceded it wasn't as versatile as the .30-06, and he hunted with a lot of other rifles chambered in bigger things when it came to larger game. Elmer Keith hated him with a passion. The wonderful Jack O'Connor. 130gr bullet pushed by lots of IMR 4831. Well over any recent published load data. Elmer Keith was a big and slow kind of guy. 338 with a 300gr bullet kind of thing. No wonder he didn't like the guy pushing a fast .270 Win. Kind of a moot point though. The only bullets they had that are anything like the large variety of the ones we have today were the Partition and Bitterroot Bonded. Neither would have given the 300 Blk a second thought. It can work, but you're very limited with it. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 8:13:50 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The wonderful Jack O'Connor. 130gr bullet pushed by lots of IMR 4831. Well over any recent published load data. Elmer Keith was a big and slow kind of guy. 338 with a 300gr bullet kind of thing. No wonder he didn't like the guy pushing a fast .270 Win. Kind of a moot point though. The only bullets they had that are anything like the large variety of the ones we have today were the Partition and Bitterroot Bonded. Neither would have given the 300 Blk a second thought. It can work, but you're very limited with it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Take a guess at who I was talking about. The cartridge that became synonymous with his name was one he liked, but he conceded it wasn't as versatile as the .30-06, and he hunted with a lot of other rifles chambered in bigger things when it came to larger game. Elmer Keith hated him with a passion. The wonderful Jack O'Connor. 130gr bullet pushed by lots of IMR 4831. Well over any recent published load data. Elmer Keith was a big and slow kind of guy. 338 with a 300gr bullet kind of thing. No wonder he didn't like the guy pushing a fast .270 Win. Kind of a moot point though. The only bullets they had that are anything like the large variety of the ones we have today were the Partition and Bitterroot Bonded. Neither would have given the 300 Blk a second thought. It can work, but you're very limited with it. Nailed it. My thoughts exactly on bullet selection available nowadays. I know a guy who was a guide in Alaska who knew Jack O'Connor personally, said he used .30-06 a lot more than he would ever admit in print. A lot of the problems and assumptions back then were because of lack of good bullets, but then again, the fixations with .30 bores and short, fat projectiles with terrible SD wasn't helping them any. |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 8:53:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Take a guess at who I was talking about. The cartridge that became synonymous with his name was one he liked, but he conceded it wasn't as versatile as the .30-06, and he hunted with a lot of other rifles chambered in bigger things when it came to larger game. Elmer Keith hated him with a passion. How could anyone that knows anything about guns, not know it was Jack, come on, come up with a harder question\! |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 10:54:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How could anyone that knows anything about guns, not know it was Jack, come on, come up with a harder question\! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Take a guess at who I was talking about. The cartridge that became synonymous with his name was one he liked, but he conceded it wasn't as versatile as the .30-06, and he hunted with a lot of other rifles chambered in bigger things when it came to larger game. Elmer Keith hated him with a passion. How could anyone that knows anything about guns, not know it was Jack, come on, come up with a harder question\! |
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Posted: 8/24/2016 11:00:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We have a lot of anecdotes from the last century that cloud our thinking in many ways by ulterior motives and agendas. One of the most well-known American hunters is renowned for promoting a particular rifle cartridge, even though he secretly used .30-06 instead for most of his medium and big game hunting. If you grew up reading his articles like I did, you would think he would have used his pet cartridge more often than not, but because .30-06 was already well-known, it wouldn't sell magazine articles. I grew up in the '70's reading my Dad's Jack O'Connor books. The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, The Hunting Rifle, and my favorite, The Art of Hunting Big Game in North America. Anyone who really read his works knows that although he loved and espoused the .270 Winchester, he openly and unashamedly used all sorts of calibers. For his wife Eleanor, he had built a 7x57 Mauser and she killed a bull elephant with a 30-06 loaded with a 220 gr. FMJRN. I remember distinctly reading his story of the last brown bear he ever killed and he did so with a .300 Weatherby. His works are absolutely timeless and his writing style is paralleled by few these days. |
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Posted: 8/25/2016 1:45:08 PM EDT
[#43]
I was raised on the .270 Winchester as our primary centerfire hunting rifle, while grandpa had plenty of .30-06, but really loved his .257 Roberts he built off a Jap Arisaka.
Several of my Scout leaders had things like .264 Winchester Magnum, which I remember impressing me on a particular scout shooting trip where we infiltrated an aerial munitions delivery impact area for Edwards AFB and China Lake Naval Weapons Test Center. I could just sense a substantial energy on target from the .264 Win Mag when I shot the axle of a 5-ton truck that had been blown out by one of the aircraft prior to our visit on a Saturday. I was used to shooting water jugs with the .270 with screaming 130gr, so I knew the difference between .30-30, .308, and something with way more speed. The .264 Win Mag seemed to hit so much harder from just a layperson's observation on how the steel reacted. It was definitely an "I like it!!!!!" moment for me, but I soon let it drift into the recesses of my memory, especially as I went on to digest a regular diet of 7.62 NATO in the military. Makes me wish my Pre-64 Model 70 .270 Win. was a .264 Win Mag now. Pics from the said trip, which would get you wrecked as a Scout Leader if they even knew you were thinking about it nowadays. One of the Leaders is dressed out in his Mountain Man garb. He also brought black powder, and I think he's holding a 6.5 Remington Magnum. If only I knew what I know now, I would have had a lot to talk with him about 6.5mm. He was well ahead of his time in being switched on to 6.5mm bores, at least for the US. 
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