I'm curious if these results are typical for a Ruger Blackhawk and/or for these loads or if I might need to work on some aspect of my loads - crimp, for example. I did weight all charges with a beam scale and testing a few random samples I'm less than 0.1 gr off and often dead on. I'm eye level when weighing.

I realize the shooter is the biggest variable and I'm no Billy the Kid, but I did test at an indoor range off sandbags. I also included a control group I fired off hand which seems to show decent form. I was testing at 30 feet. My offhand group was at 15 feet.

In addition to not spectacular groups, some of the cases are really dirty with soot and in the case of the A#9 loads some sort of kind of white film.

EDIT: Also, with the h110 and mag primers there is a huge fireball coming out the cylinder gap. Can't see the muzzle so not sure about there. Is such a flash typical with H110 or do I need more crimp?

Appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

Loads:

All with 158 gr XTP or Nosler JHP). All loads are either minimum or towards the middle. None are more than halfway between min and max based on Hodgdon data.

HS-6 - 8.5 gr
CFE Pistol - 6.1gr and 6.6 gr
Accurate #9 - 12.5 gr
H110 - 15.5 gr

Some of my groups are pretty bad. Squares are 1 inch.




Some are okay.






My off hand control group.


You can see all the samples here https://www.flickr.com/gp/9285467@N03/AZb8FL

You have a lot of variables, I'd start with ladder testing one powder and going from there.

I didn't keep many examples with factory ammo, but in general I'd say about the same. This is about 30 rnds of 38 special off hand at 25 yards. Not sure it says much.





Yeah, I guess that does make sense. Not sure I have enough data to say for sure, but HS-6 or CFE seemed to be one of the better powders. So by "ladder testing" I'm assuming you mean start at 8.0 (HS-6) and increasing by .2 or .3 gr in several successive loads. How many of each gives a good sample?

That says I'm glad you are not shooting at me!

yes, H-110/win296 makes a lot of muzzle flash




It also tends to have  the best velocity, and great accuracy,  . . . .  good for hunting

Correct, starting at the bottom and working up to the max (if need be).   The number you load for each segment of the load development is up to you.  

The powders I use like to run hot, with that being the case I load very few on the starting end of the spectrum and the ones I do are used  to check for signs of pressure.

I don't notice any real accuracy until I hit a mid powder charge or beyond,  for each of those segments I'll load between 10-15 for use at various distances.

I'd caution you against drastically changing charge volumes while working up a load.   While a jump from 6.1 to 6.6 may land you in the middle of the published data, it may not necessarily be safe.  I think most people will agree that a .5 grain is a quick jump when it comes to loading pistol cartridges.

>In addition to not spectacular groups, some of the cases are really dirty with soot and in the case of the A#9 loads some sort of kind of white film.



Soot: pretty much means that the pressures were too low for the case to expand and seal the chamber. Never saw a "white film" with AA9, but still not a concern. If you are shooting HOT loads and getting soot, I have no immediate idea--I've never had the problem.



>EDIT: Also, with the h110 and mag primers there is a huge fireball coming out the cylinder gap. Can't see the muzzle so not sure about there. Is such a flash typical with H110 or do I need more crimp?



Crimp isn't the issue. The crimp is ONLY to keep the bullet from "walking out" of the case and binding the cylinder at the front against the barrel. 296/H110 often throws a big fire ball. The powder is hard to ignite and only burns well close to MAX pressure, so the gases are HOT coming out. Use a flake powder like 2400 and the flame should be less and light loads work much better. Most .357 Mag factory loads I have fired threw out big fire balls. I often see flames shooting out the cylinder gap, if I am not concentrating on the sights well enough. All perfectly normal. I really don't even notice it any more--unless firing at night.

Just a question:
When did NORMAL load work-up become "ladder testing?"

First time I heard the term, it meant loading for rifle at 0.2-0.3gn increments and shooting ONE shot at each charge weight at a target 300 yards away and noted where bullets clustered together. The idea being that where the bullets of different charge weight clustered was the accuracy node for that gun/barrel.

Now, the term seems to used for what is just the same old loading process as used for the last 150 years or more.

I remember using H110 and Blue Dot for my .357 magnum loads when I was shooting a lot of them.

You don't want too much crimp (can damage the bullet and/or bulge the case below the mouth so badly it won't chamber) but you need enough to keep the bullets from working forward as the preceding rounds fire.  Yeah, the pistol will recoil hard/fast enough that the cases move rearward before/faster than the bullets and the bullets begin to "move" forward out of the case.  Enough crimp, not too much crimp.

Stick with one powder/bullet combo and work up loads with it.  Keep the targets, write the data you need about the load/distance/conditions on them.  If you're not happy with the groups, try another powder and do the same thing, working up loads and recording data on the targets.  You may find that you moved past your best load/groups looking for something better - so keep good records so you can compare and pick the best one for your revolver.

THANK YOU SIR!  I hear these guys say ladder I want to tell them get off the internet and go shoot.

Load MORE, shoot More of the same load, minimum 18 rounds each and please get off the bench / sand bags and shoot off hand like your supposed to do, it's a pistol!  50' minimum NRA standard B2 or B3 target, smaller 10x ring and you will focus better and have smaller groups.  Please go back and report again.  

H110 will give you a bigger "boom" AA#5 is also a Very good 158gr powder, higher pressure so your cases will be cleaner.

Shoot 5 rounds and pull out the 6th loaded round in your cylinder, if the bullet is falling out of the case, then crimp another 1/4 turn, or get a lee under sized die for RP brass that never holds well with the standard lee .38/357 die.

Thanks. Most of this makes sense. However, how will shooting off hand at 50' help me discern one load from another. There is no way I can shoot well enough off hand at that distance to see any meaningful difference between loads.

How would you describe a firm crimp? The Lee directions are to run the crimp down until it touches the case then a half turn more to start. That didn't seem overly crimped so I went a quarter turn more.

Dirty cases = weak loads. I use AA #9 and H110 for .357 Magnum and 44 Magnum loads,

while it's smart to start low and work up, your loads are definitely on the weak side.

The Ruger Blackhawk is a strong gun, as is the GP100. I shoot loads through a GP100

that I'm hesitant to shoot through other makes/models of .357.

AA #9 is my favorite in .357 Mag, be sure to use a magnum primer and do a search

for Accurate Arms load data version 3.2.2. This is older data, a bit more stout than

today's data, but perfectly safe in a strong revolver like Ruger Blackhawk.

Also, get a good chronograph if funds allow, velocity data on your loads will

open your eyes to what's really happening with your reloads.

What kind of primer are you using?

As others have said, the ladder test is the way to go. Typically I load 12 rounds of each step in the ladder test when testing loads. If I find a load that looked good on the initial test (6-shots), I''l re-test with the other 6 rounds.

I'd switch the style of test target you're using also. It's allot easier to line up the flat rear sight with the flat front sight and put them on the bottom edge of a flat target. Iron sights = sq/flat and scope ='s round/crossed lines/dots.



I like to use a target with 2 squares in them for the 12-round ladder test. Shoot 6 at the left target, if you like what you see. Re-test on the right target with the last 6 rounds. If you don't like what you see then shoot the last 6-rounds offhand into the right target. Now you something you can compare you offhand/shooting skills to. Same firearm, same load, shot on the same day minutes apart, it's bench rest vs off-hand.

I use the 10-ring of an nra target as a benchmark for accuracy,
50ft ='s 9/10th inch (.9")
20yd ='s 1.1"
25yd ='s 1.5"
50yd ='s 3.3"

You were testing @30ft, to put it in perspective a nra 10m (around 33ft) pellet pistol target is
1-ring ='s 6.1"
2-ring ='s 5.5"
3-ring ='s 4.8"
4-ring ='s 4.4"
5-ring ='s 3.6"
6-ring ='s 3"
7-ring ='s 2.3"
8-ring ='s 1.7"
9-ring ='s .1.1"
10-ring ='s .45"
inner 10-ring (x-ring) ='s .2"

Basically your load should be doing a bugholee or .4" @ 30ft.

I've showed this picture before. Was looking for a plinking load/minute of golf ball  @25yds or 1 1/2" groups with a beater 629 44mag. How did I come up with 1 1/2" @25yds??? From the nra 10-ring.



When I get a pistol and start working up loads for it I "ALWAYS" start off testing target bullet/loads, IE: wad cutters or loads that have been known performers like any 158gr bullet and 3.5gr of international clays or 3.3gr to 3.5gr of bulleye or 4.0gr of unique, 3.0gr of reddot /clays etc.

This will establish a baseline that all other loads can be judged by. Bought a new 686 last year, the 1st test loads I did were 38spl loads looking for accuracy I tested until I found a couple loads that were accurate/did the suggested nra 10-ring size .9" or less.



It's huge to find target loads 1st in any firearm, now I know what the revolver can do and have a benchmark to compare other loads to. If I never tested for accuracy 1st I never would of looked at these targets as junk.



Or these targets.



And actually those 357 plinking loads that pictured above needed retesting. If I never had a base line load to compare them to. I never would of thought about looking in a different direction. Namely, I kept getting 5-shots touching and 1 out. That told me it was my 20 year old brass that was beat to death mixed in with good brass. Went thru and tossed out a bunch old brass and ordered 2000 new pieces of 357 brass from starline and the end result is no more fliers.

Do yourself a huge favor:
Switch target to something that makes sight alignment easy and consistent.
Do ladder tests
Start testing target loads 1st

If you can chew bugholes with target loads then you should be able to chew bugholes with hotter loads. I'd start with buying a bunch of 148gr wc's and work up target loads, after that's everything else is easy.

Sounds like you need a couple more play toys to hone your pistolero skills with. These thing ='s being humble with a good dose of humility when you 1st start using them to the last time you ever pick them up.
10m  pistol
25m sport pistol
50m free pistol



The hardest of those 3 pictured above to shoot/compete with is the 50m free pistol (bottom). If you were to compete with it and every 3rd shot was a 9, you'd be 3 points away from the worlds record (583 out of a possible 600).

Sorry for the thread drift & good luck with your blackbawk

That looks like a good, firm crimp. Those bullets shouldn't move anywhere except down range to the target. Good job recognizing that you didn't have enough.

Your cases are sooty because the load is under powered, not enough pressure to seal the chamber. You're getting poor groups because of it.
W296 & H-110 are the same and run better at higher charges. I also am testing loads in my Blackhawk right now with H-110 but with lead bullets.

Forget that stuff about shooting off-hand at 50'. When doing load development you need to eliminate as many variables as possible and shaky hands are the worst offenders. Use sandbags to take that out of the equation and use the same grip and sight picture each time. Control your breathing and trigger squeeze. Keep working at it, you'll find the right load for you and the gun.

Thanks for all the useful info. I will look for better targets. I see how that could be an issue. I used these because it's what the range had and they do have the + in the middle that I thought would help with sight alignment. The boxes with white inside might give a better contrast. I'll try those.

I am using a Lee FCD and crimping in two steps. I did not trim brass because they are all pretty close already and it doesn't seem like many people trim handgun brass. However, might make sense for load testing as it's just another variable to control.

Also thanks for the feedback about sooty cases meaning weak loads. That's good info so I might just start building up from these. Most were at the lower end anyway.

Lots of good info but I will reinforce a few things...

Shoot from a solid bench off of sandbags if you really want to see what the gun will do.

Low power causes sooty cases and usually is not the best accuracy. In my 625 I am always chasing the best accuracy for something that consistently gets 159 for a power factor. I have found the accuracy of my loads goes up noticeably if I load to something like a 170 power factor but I am a gamer so I am always looking for the least recoil and then best accuracy. (Power Factor is used in IDPA/USPSA as a measuring stick for load potency)

Shoot slowly. Take your time. Take breaks between shots. It might take me 3 minutes to fire 6 shots. If your eyes, fingers, or arms are fatigued you will pull/push shots.

Find whatever style target lets you align the sights as consistently as possible. This can vary from one set of sights to another, under different lighting conditions, and at different distances.

I always focus on the front sight. Can you explain the black triangle target a bit more or link a picture? If I understand right, the triangle tip would point down and you would line up the sights so the tip of the triangle is sitting on the top of the front sight.

Would something like this work as well? http://www.gamecalls.net/free_stuff/targets/Lg%20BR%20Diamond.pdf

So, something more like this? I can see how having just that point on the bottom line up with would help. I'm thinking of having something like printed at kinkos on slightly heavy paper.

Okay, played around a bit more and came up with a double triangle option that will print on 11x17 paper. Click for full size if anyone wants.

"There is no way I can shoot well enough off hand at that distance to see any meaningful difference between loads"

IF you think this way, just pick a load that feels good to shoot and go practice, practice and practice, the most consistent load on paper off a rest may be too much recoil and blast for you to shoot consistently off hand.

I just got bit by the .357 but last month so it's hot for me now.  MT gold has wonderful bullets!

Cool. What size do those print? Looks like maybe 8.5x11. I made mine 11x17 so it would be somewhat large and closer to the size of commercial targets. I can print for about 20 cents at fedex.

Found these too online http://acushnetrifleandpistol.com/images/88targets.pdf

I think you missed my point. I was saying that in order to test the accuracy of loads, I would need to use a rest in order to remove as many variables as possible. Once I find a good load I'll be able to shoot it just fine and know that any accuracy issue isn't the load but me.

You're using Shit powder for 357mag!  Stick with 2400!  110 SUCKS, NO consistency!  You need to practice with mag loads!  38spl & 357 mag are TOTALLY different

I've been using H-110 since 1987

Provided you use magnum primers, a FIRM crimp, and common sense handloading techniques,  it's a wonderfully consistent powder

top notch for velocity, and accuracy in magnum loads.

Got playing around with this. Needed one for some rifle load testing and played off your ideas. Thoughts? I'm thinking 100 yards with a scope. 11x17 again. Should be 1 inch squares.

Well, I'm loading mag loads to just that. Although I see no reason to put a couple hundred mag loads through my gun every time I practice. Nothing wrong with practicing with 38s to save some wear and tear and then some mag loads just to stay on top of it. Thanks for the helpful feedback

I mainly wanted larger targets than 8.5x11. I went with grey so they would be cheaper to print. Might try some color ones after I give these a try. My local range only goes to 100yrds so these should be good to test my various loads.