Setting up for .44 magnum update pg 4 rounds downrange - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Setting up for .44 magnum update pg 4 rounds downrange (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 11/7/2015 12:13:24 AM EDT

[#1]

I can't argue with your assessment of the 265gr SP although I don't think it's lack of expansion will make it much less effective on deer.

Perhaps the best comprise would be a 240gr Flat POINT like the one in the photo above.

If you read the Hornady 8th edition it does say that the 200 "and" the 240gr XTP are best left to taking smaller game.

Personally I'll take insured penetration over expansion for a game bullet anytime. I guess loosing deer hit in the shoulder joint because the bullet failed to break through into the chest cavity makes you form certain opinions.

Motor

Posted: 11/7/2015 4:43:13 AM EDT

[#2]

Here is the data I collected so far on the components I have (or will have).

The highlighted ones reflect the exact components in the same rifle, save for the primers. I have CCI Large Pistol (CCI 300) and Federal Large Pistol Magnum on hand.

If you think the XTPs are best left to "smaller game", what are you referring to? I'm not looking to hunt anything other than Ohio white tails. If I'm going out of state I'll take my 30-06.

Ballistics at the max velocities listed (just to see the numbers, I'm going for accuracy but I wanted to see what the chart said)

Posted: 11/7/2015 8:35:47 AM EDT

[#3]

That max load of 27gns of H110 with a 240gn bullet is pretty high. Hodgons online recommends a max of 24gns

Posted: 11/7/2015 10:30:17 AM EDT

[#4]

AJE. My recommendation is simple. Pick a non HP bullet between 240gr and 265gr and work up to the fastest most accurate load.

I know trajectory is important to you because of where you are hunting. I think this approach will give you the best results.

Don't pay too much attention to data differences between one manual to the next. Use the H-110 and a firm roll crimp and work up accordingly.

Motor

Posted: 11/7/2015 10:40:35 AM EDT

[#5]

The above will get good results for the fast approaching season.

During the off season you can really research your options. Since you are shooting a non tubular magazine rifle your bullet selection is wide open. I haven't looked lately but maybe Barns or somebody is making a more aerodynamic design that will work on deer size game. I thought the Hornady FTX would be good but reading this thread I saw some negative comments on its terminal performance.

Good luck and post your progress.

Motor

Posted: 11/7/2015 11:42:13 AM EDT

[#6]

I agree that the max data listed at 27 grains is above all data sources I've seen using 240 gr. jacketed bullets. Winchester and Hodgdon with H110 and Win 296 (the same) list 24 grains as maximum. Use magnum primers with these powders. If I ventured above 24 grains it'd only be in new unfired brass but 24 grains in my experience in a Super Blackhawk and Winchester Trapper rifle seems to be near maximum loads.

Posted: 11/7/2015 12:52:27 PM EDT

[#7]

27gr sounds nuts to me also

Taffin has some good date

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm

Posted: 11/7/2015 3:28:14 PM EDT

[#8]

We use 25gr in our M77/44s with the 240gr. I'm pretty sure this is the max listed in the Hornady 8th edition. But every gun is different.

Motor

Posted: 11/7/2015 3:32:38 PM EDT

[#9]

I'm coming from totally in the dark, so I didn't know it was necessarily crazy. I will start with what Hodgdon suggests, and work up, but I'm not trying to set the world on fire with the hottest load possible. I'll load up them up and shoot groups until I find a good one, then worry about the velocity.

If I could get close to the max velocity that is listed from Hodgdon, I could have a nice flat trajectory out to 150yd with a 15 yard zero. The 210 would give me flat ( + or - 1.5") out to 150 with a 20 yard zero.

I've never messed with the ballistic calculator before, it's pretty neat.

Posted: 11/7/2015 7:56:39 PM EDT

[#10]

Yes it is cool. I have an old program called "On Target" on my old 466 Windows 98 computer and its been useful and fun to work with.

Motor

Posted: 11/7/2015 10:09:22 PM EDT

[#11]

If you want a lighter bullet that will penetrate and expand, the Barnes XPB looks like they'll do the job. Little spendy though at almost $1/bullet

.

Posted: 11/7/2015 11:35:24 PM EDT

[#12]

In my Silhouette days I used to load 25.0 grs H-110 with a Sierra 240 gr JHP for use in a Redhawk.

Very hot load, now days 24.0 grs works just fine.

No way would I use 27.0 grs with a 240 gr jacketed bullet.

Posted: 11/7/2015 11:54:07 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you want a lighter bullet that will penetrate and expand, the Barnes XPB looks like they'll do the job. Little spendy though at almost $1/bullet

.

View Quote

I can knock 2 deer over for approx $1.24 ,, that with handloaded 30-06 and Hornady bullet

Dont think you really need to get high price about it, just need something to punch through rib cage bone, let the impact send bone shrapnel into interior to mess the works, and bullet able to get out other side so deer will drain out real fast or drop right there

Posted: 11/8/2015 7:19:21 AM EDT

[#14]

The first rounds I'm making will be about 53 cents, that's with guessing the price I paid for the primers (been awhile). 2nd go around with the brass will be 30 a piece. Compares to about $1.50-$2.00 a round for similar factory rounds.

Posted: 11/11/2015 4:31:18 PM EDT

[#15]

With concern to pushing the hollow point bullets too fast, I emailed Sierra and Hornady for feedback on the bullets I purchased.

Sierra's reply about thier 210gr JHC:

Our load data for the 44 Magnum in a rifle is attached to this email for your review. It would be a good idea to stick to a broadside (behind the shoulder) shot into the heart / lungs for the madden run, just to give you an idea of how they will work for you but they should work very well. I would suspect they won’t move more than a few steps if any after that kind of shot.

View Quote

The data from the manual goes up to 1900fps and thier suggested hunting load was 1800fps.

The reply from Hornady about the 240gr XTP was much more comforting:

Mr. AJE,

Thanks for contacting us. This is indeed a handgun bullet, however it was designed to be rugged enough to handle maximum muzzle velocity of 2200fps! As always, H110/W296, Alliant 2400 and Accurate No. 9 are the standouts for loading this bullet in 44 Magnum. Good luck this season,

View Quote

I have received all the components and parts for my 650 so I'll start putting some test rounds together tonight.

Posted: 11/11/2015 4:44:49 PM EDT

[#16]

Did you ask about the 240gn xtp Mag? Or standard xtp?

Posted: 11/11/2015 4:52:05 PM EDT

[#17]

I never said mag, just 240 XTP.

Posted: 11/11/2015 6:18:55 PM EDT

[#18]

When did Hornady come out with 2 different XTPs. Both 429" and both 240gr. The 8th edition only shows one.

Motor

Posted: 11/11/2015 10:12:47 PM EDT

[#19]

I don't know when, but I think it was a year or so ago when I heard about them for muzzle loaders. They are supposed to hold together better for the increase in velocity.

Edit: here is some interesting info on xtp working velocity.
scroll down to XTP section

Posted: 11/11/2015 11:20:35 PM EDT

[#20]

I had to switch the powder bar to accommodate the heavier charge.... I learned to make sure you have it all back together 100% correctly before pouring the powder in

I guess I didn't need the whole pound of H110 anyway.

That aside, I put together some rounds to test this weekend. I am picking up the rifle on Friday.

Posted: 11/11/2015 11:45:17 PM EDT

[#21]

LOL, Ive been there too.

What charge did you decide to start with?

Posted: 11/11/2015 11:54:51 PM EDT

[#22]

I started with the H110 and worked up to and a little over thier listed max for the 240 XTP. I wouldn't have normally gone past the max but it seems like most everybody is able to go a little past 24 grains. I will be starting with the lighter ones and watching for any danger signs before shooting the heavier loads.

I'll probably load a few up with Power Pistol as well just for something different, although it sounds like H110 works well enough that trying a bunch of other powders is just going to use up more bullets.

Posted: 11/12/2015 12:32:46 AM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
When did Hornady come out with 2 different XTPs. Both 429" and both 240gr. The 8th edition only shows one.

Motor

View Quote

The XTP MAG line is for 45 cal and larger, no 44s.

Posted: 11/12/2015 10:50:06 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
I don't know when, but I think it was a year or so ago when I heard about them for muzzle loaders. They are supposed to hold together better for the increase in velocity.

Edit: here is some interesting info on xtp working velocity.
scroll down to XTP section

View Quote

Yep. 1500f/s max. It proves what I've been saying all along. Full power loads from a rifle are in the 1800f/s range. Which results in poor bullet performance at ranges where the bullets are still above 1500f/s.

It seems according to the last post above the XTP Mag is not available in 44 caliber.

Motor

Posted: 11/13/2015 5:48:18 AM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:

Yep. 1500f/s max. It proves what I've been saying all along. Full power loads from a rifle are in the 1800f/s range. Which results in poor bullet performance at ranges where the bullets are still above 1500f/s.

It seems according to the last post above the XTP Mag is not available in 44 caliber.

Motor

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't know when, but I think it was a year or so ago when I heard about them for muzzle loaders. They are supposed to hold together better for the increase in velocity.

Edit: here is some interesting info on xtp working velocity.
scroll down to XTP section

Yep. 1500f/s max. It proves what I've been saying all along. Full power loads from a rifle are in the 1800f/s range. Which results in poor bullet performance at ranges where the bullets are still above 1500f/s.

It seems according to the last post above the XTP Mag is not available in 44 caliber.

Motor

My inquiry to Hornady specifically named the 240gr XTP in 44 caliber.

Posted: 11/13/2015 11:03:31 AM EDT

[#26]

AJE. I don't understand your post. Did they say that they do make a XTP "mag" in 44 caliber that is intended/recommended for velocity above 1500f/s?

I'm sorry if I missed something from an earlier post I'm just curious as to what is available.

ETA: Ok I saw your post about contacting Hornady. Maybe you should have ask them why it is that their published manual recommends against using the 240gr XTP on deer sized game.

Their reply also counterdicts the 1500f/s maximum that was posted in the link above.

Hornady 8th edition page 734. "44 Remington Magnum (Rifle)

"The Hornady 265 grain Flat Point or the 300 grain HP-XTP are the best choices for deer or black bear at sbort ranges, while the 200 grain Jacketed hollow Point and the 240 grain Jacketed Hollow Point are better suited for smaller game."

That is the direct quote from the manual.

BTW: I've seen plenty of those beasts you call "Ohio deer". I'm sure there are "normal size" ones too but your deer are very well known for packing on a few more extra pounds than the typical WV or PA whitetail.

Motor

Posted: 11/13/2015 1:59:38 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
AJE. I don't understand your post. Did they say that they do make a XTP "mag" in 44 caliber that is intended/recommended for velocity above 1500f/s?

I'm sorry if I missed something from an earlier post I'm just curious as to what is available.

ETA: Ok I saw your post about contacting Hornady. Maybe you should have ask them why it is that their published manual recommends against using the 240gr XTP on deer sized game.

Their reply also counterdicts the 1500f/s maximum that was posted in the link above.

Hornady 8th edition page 734. "44 Remington Magnum (Rifle)

"The Hornady 265 grain Flat Point or the 300 grain HP-XTP are the best choices for deer or black bear at sbort ranges, while the 200 grain Jacketed hollow Point and the 240 grain Jacketed Hollow Point are better suited for smaller game."

That is the direct quote from the manual.

BTW: I've seen plenty of those beasts you call "Ohio deer". I'm sure there are "normal size" ones too but your deer are very well known for packing on a few more extra pounds than the typical WV or PA whitetail.

Motor

View Quote

Motor: I have that same Hornady edition and know exactly what you're talking about.

After reading up on Savage Smokeless muzzleloaders, one of the most commonly used and effective loads is a .452 cal hornady 250 gr xtp (non-mag) in a sabot. The load data indicates a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps. I've used this load to take two deer, both with complete pass throughs at close range. One of these resulted in the most amazing instant deaths I've ever seen while hunting.

This led me to believe that even the non-mag xtp line was stout enough for carbine velocities.

Anyway, I used a ruger 77/44 with a 240 xtp loaded to about 1700 fps last month to take a small doe. Hit her right behind the shoulder on a quartering to shot. The bullet lodged in her back hip and she only made it 15 yards before collapsing dead. Saw her go down.

The bullet worked fine, however it did not penetrate completely and she left no blood until she went down.

ETA: Deer was about 65 yards away when shot.

Posted: 11/14/2015 6:36:07 PM EDT

[#28]

I put some rounds downrange today.

I didn't have the best setup for bench rest but I was able to get it sighted in with a couple of shots and put some groups on paper. I didn't chrono anything yet, but will do so when I have more daylight available.

Range: 50 yards
Temp: about 50 degrees

Rifle: Leupold Vari X II 3-9x50 scope

Bench setup (I know the empty Amazon box doesn't make the best rest but that's what I had available at the time)

The H110 loads shot better than the Power Pistol loads. The Power Pistol load for the 210gr Sierra was all over the place, but the rest of the loads were pretty decent. Not sure why that combination didn't work out so well, as that was Alliant's published load.

Primers all looked the same

I'm kinda underwhelmed with the group size so far... not convinced it's the rifle or the rounds at this point, though. I'm mostly a pistol shooter and my shoulder was getting very tired of the recoil. I will be testing less rounds in one sitting next time (I think I fired about 50 rounds today) The 240gr XTP didn't have a bad group at all, just nothing fantastic, so I will head back out later this week after giving the rifle a good cleaning.

Posted: 11/14/2015 8:26:45 PM EDT

[#29]

for me, H-110 / win 296 has always yielded top accuracy for 44mag, but I've never gone over 24gr for a 240 bullet

I had a 16" winchester 94 trapper.

with 240gr/24grH110, I was surprised how much recoil that little monster had. THWACK

Should have kept it.

It was cool.

I made some plinkers with 240gr SWC and a mild load of Win231, the gun was SO QUIET, I was worried I would leave one squib'ed in the barrel

I chrony'd them and they were about 1050 fps.

240gr at 1050 fps, is hotter than 45ACP.

I thought, damn, you could drop a home intruder, and not even wake the kids

Posted: 11/15/2015 6:23:35 PM EDT

[#30]

My shoulder is certainly feeling it.

I put a few more rounds down range today and I was more careful to spare my shoulder. I cleaned the bore last night.

I'm still not satisfied although it seems to be getting more consistent with some more rounds down the barrel. I didn't have any spectacular groups, and I still cant' seem to get one without at least one flier, but I did have two rounds in one hole with the next to the last group and three rounds in one hole in the last group. I feel like, from 50 yards, I should be able to punch 5 into about an inch. The flier in the first group was not the fouling shot.

I did adjust the scope between the first two and the last two groups. The barrel was getting warm on the last group, and it was shot the most rapidly of the four. I tried to let the barrel cool between shots for the first three groups, though I know it wasn't enough to consider each shot a cold bore shot.

All of these were with the 240gr XTP.

Posted: 11/16/2015 12:05:23 AM EDT

[#31]

You need to sight with a stone cold barrel,, as that what you'll have when Mr Deer comes strolling along..

That what I do with my 30-06.. you dont know how long you be out before getting a shot off, and you sure aint shooting supper with a warmed up barrel..

I usually do 2 shot, then wait

Posted: 11/16/2015 12:18:42 AM EDT

[#32]

I'll have more time during the day tomorrow and Tuesday... I can fire a shot and wait 10 minutes in between them.

The first shot out of the barrel was dead on today.

Posted: 11/16/2015 12:09:58 PM EDT

[#33]

AJE, try and borrow a shooting coat like the highpower guys use.

I am not a big guy and have had to do lots of testing when I was younger, most of it with stuff much heavier than my own rigs. I found the first time they loaned me a simple version like the Marines wear, I was good to go all day. Now I wear my Hardback coat on the bench unless I am wearing my actual hunting gear.

I don't have any experience with your particular rifle, but I did shoot a lot of .44mag in my time and can tell (suggest) you not to settle yet. Try a few other brands of JHP to see if the rig just might like some of the others. Often, I found the shape of the base radius had more correlation than the shape of the nose. I have lever action rifles to compliment my .44 pistols and all of them will shoot tighter groups with silhouette and hunting loads.

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/BASIC-CLOTH-SHOOTING-COAT/Cloth-Coats

Posted: 11/16/2015 7:51:21 PM EDT

[#34]

AJE, I went with 23.5 gr of H110 and a Win LP for my Ruger carbine. It's worked good for about ten years, plenty of expansion and fantastic accuracy. Keep trying different charges until you find a 'sweet' load for your rifle.

Posted: 11/17/2015 10:18:51 AM EDT

[#35]

FYI,
Double check the room that you have in the mags for your loads, and the amount of jump that you have from the load to the jump to lands.
Hence if you need to longer OAL load the rounds so the bullet jump to land is not a country mile, you may still be able to pull it off with mag loaded rounds.

Next up, would be have the receiver bedded to the stock to solve a lot of problem there as well.

Lastly, have the trigger smith worked over to decrease the trigger pull weight down to a few lbs or check with Jard if the 77/22 kit will work in the 77/44.
http://www.jardinc.com/ruger-mkii-7722-or-7717/

Posted: 11/17/2015 11:04:57 AM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
FYI,
Double check the room that you have in the mags for your loads, and the amount of jump that you have from the load to the jump to lands.
Hence if you need to longer OAL load the rounds so the bullet jump to land is not a country mile, you may still be able to pull it off with mag loaded rounds.

Next up, would be have the receiver bedded to the stock to solve a lot of problem there as well.

Lastly, have the trigger smith worked over to decrease the trigger pull weight down to a few lbs or check with Jard if the 77/22 kit will work in the 77/44.
http://www.jardinc.com/ruger-mkii-7722-or-7717/

View Quote

I like the look of that trigger.

The pull on it now is a little heavy but its solid and crisp.

Shouldn't I be loading to the cannelure on the bullets?

I will have time to do some more shooting today.

Posted: 11/17/2015 11:08:48 AM EDT

[#37]

loading long might work for HPBT rifle, but with H110/win286, you want a FIRM roll crimp on the cannelure

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Posted: 11/17/2015 2:52:24 PM EDT

[#38]

Okay, some better results today.

I had some work to do in the garage, so for the first three groups, I left the rifle on the bench with the bolt open and set my timer for 5 minutes. Every 5 minutes I would come outside and take a shot, then leave the barrel to cool. The last two groups were shot without waiting between shots other than what was required to load and settle for the next shot. Obviously the barrel heating up had an effect on the group size.

I'd still like to see one hole groups for this thing but it's much better than what I was hunting with before, so I'll probably stick with one of these loads and then put them over the chrono.

Posted: 11/19/2015 6:41:44 PM EDT

[#39]

I took the chrono out today to see where I was on velocity but the light conditions didn't cooperate.

I did put a couple groups on paper at 100 yards and found a winner.

25 grains of H110 with the 240gr XTP.

The other load I tried opened up quite a bit. The conditions weren't the best with the wind but I think this load is what I'll stick with for hunting.

Posted: 11/19/2015 7:01:57 PM EDT

[#40]

That's a nice 100 yd group, I think you found your load.

Posted: 11/21/2015 1:25:21 AM EDT

[#41]

Anyone find a good cast bullet load for this rifle?

Posted: 11/22/2015 4:48:56 PM EDT

[#42]

I can't help on cast bullets.

I put some at different ranges today trying to make an educated guess at my velocity, as well as checking the trajectory.

(I felt myself yank the high one at 75yd so I put a third shot there, as well as 130yd)

Based on the ballistic calculator on Hornady's site I'm probably somewhere between 1750 and 1800fps. I'm getting more drop than I was hoping to out at 130. I also notice my 20 yd is off to the left (just slightly) while the 130yd shots all drift a couple inches to the right. Is there a simple explanation for this? I believe the scope is level on the gun the best I can tell, I'm not sure of why else (if that could be why) the windage changes with the range.

Posted: 11/22/2015 6:06:34 PM EDT

[#43]

What is considered a max hunting distance for 44mag? Since it's considered a handgun ammunition I'm assuming it's pretty limited in range??

I have a Henry Big Boy in 44mag, but it's not for hunting, too pretty

I also have a Ruger Redhawk in 44mag, but it's only the 4.2" barrel so not for hunting either

My wife would want to kill me, but I'd like to have a another lever action rifle that I could take hunting and not worry about scratching it up. The Henry is my gun cabinet queen

Posted: 11/22/2015 7:37:26 PM EDT

[#44]

I can't say what the floor is in terms of the power but the 240gr bullet at 1800-1900fps holds over 800 ft/lbs of energy out to 200 yards, well past the range I'm looking to use it at. I wanted to be comfortable shooting out to 125 or 150 but with my shooting at 130 today I don't feel too comfortable past 125.

I wanted a "no soul" stainless synthetic so I didn't feel bad if it got beat around a little bit.

Posted: 11/22/2015 8:03:54 PM EDT

[#45]

AJE. That's a beautiful rifle. With our typical weather in deer season I'd say you made a great decision going with that rifle.

Don't be surprised if it gets more accurate as it breaks in which it definitely will unless of course you bought it used but I think I remember you stating you bought it new.

Very nice hundred yard group. It may sound strange and this is a guess but bullets do spin drift and with right hand twist I believe they drift to the right. As I said, just a guess.

Good luck hunting. Your opening day is next Monday, correct? Let us know how it goes.

Motor

Posted: 11/22/2015 8:43:25 PM EDT

[#46]

Yes, opening day is next Monday. I will be sure to report back. I have an empty freezer so I won't be too picky.

Posted: 11/24/2015 10:11:41 PM EDT

[#47]

I'm in the same vboat as you AJE. I bought the same rifle for deer season this year and am trying to get some loads ready for next week. Where on Ohio are you?

Posted: 11/24/2015 10:19:19 PM EDT

[#48]

PM sent

Posted: 11/25/2015 10:20:38 PM EDT

[#49]

AJE - good luck next week. Not really relevant, but since I am in central Ohio I figured I would let you know our results with the same rifle (different caliber - but same bullet) that my son had last weekend. I have a 77/357 that I load with a max charge of H-110 and a 158 grain XTP. My 13 year old son got his first deer last weekend during the Ohio youth gun season with this rifle and load. The XTP performed very well for him. Granted, the shot was 110 yards but that little bullet HAMMERED his buck. He made a 110 yard shot that hit high in the heart and we could see the blood pumping from that distance. Clean pass through on shot #1. He shot again (I was not going to stop him) and it was a quartering towards us shot at about 70 yards that hit mid chest on the right side and I recovered the bullet under the hide in the left side where the leg meets the abdomen. Bullet definitely over expanded but stayed together. Our barrel is cut to 16.5" and threaded for suppressor use. Load is chrono'd in the low 1900's. Let us know how you do next week!

Posted: 11/29/2015 11:32:56 PM EDT

[#50]

I finished my hunt Tues 11/24 in WV... thats all, I'm home now.. 30-06 handloads

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Setting up for .44 magnum update pg 4 rounds downrange (Page 2 of 3)

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