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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:33:18 AM EDT
[#1]
I have a Dillon trimmer and use it with 30 Carbine, .223/5.56, 30-30, 300 Savage, .308, and 30-06. I've loaded thousands flat base and boat tail bullets. I've loaded thousands of FMJ, HPGT, and even plated bullets. I load percision long range bullets. I trim my brass, tumble off the lube and load them without chamfering the inside of the brass. I've pulled bullets to look for scratches and/or gouges caused by not chamfering the insides and you know what I've found? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
I've hand chamfered some test .223 and .308 and shot for accuracy out to 400+ yds, comparing them to the exact same loads, shot at the same time, from the same guns but without chamfering and you know what difference I found? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I've looked at the fired brass from precision commercial houses, Hornady, Federal, etc. and you know what I found? No chamfer. Not one precision commercial manufacturer I've seen chamfers the inside of their brass when they load it. So, please someone explain to me why we must chamfer the inside of the brass. Someone show me evidence of performance differences between chamfered and non chamfered groups. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:44:00 AM EDT
[#2]
That would be a good thing for the dillon trimmer.
My RCBS trim Pro has an optional three way cutter on it, cuts the length, inside chamfer and deburs the outside of the case. It is tedious to adjust, but does a very good job once correctly adjusted. Might want to check this out. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:52:33 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a Dillon trimmer and use it with 30 Carbine, .223/5.56, 30-30, 300 Savage, .308, and 30-06. I've loaded thousands flat base and boat tail bullets. I've loaded thousands of FMJ, HPGT, and even plated bullets. I load percision long range bullets. I trim my brass, tumble off the lube and load them without chamfering the inside of the brass. I've pulled bullets to look for scratches and/or gouges caused by not chamfering the insides and you know what I've found? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I've hand chamfered some test .223 and .308 and shot for accuracy out to 400+ yds, comparing them to the exact same loads, shot at the same time, from the same guns but without chamfering and you know what difference I found? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I've looked at the fired brass from precision commercial houses, Hornady, Federal, etc. and you know what I found? No chamfer. Not one precision commercial manufacturer I've seen chamfers the inside of their brass when they load it. So, please someone explain to me why we must chamfer the inside of the brass. Someone show me evidence of performance differences between chamfered and non chamfered groups. I think if your trimmer leaves a nice clean cut with no material left on the inside or outside of the mouth of the case then deburing and chamfering is probably not needed. I don't have a Dillon trimmer. My powered lathe type trimmer, without the three way cutting head, does not cut cleanly enough NOT debur and chamfer. I don't see it as a performance enhancement as much as a necessary step in case prep. If needed. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:55:44 AM EDT
[#4]
COSteve,
I congratulate you on your good results and attention. My results have been different. I have found circular rings of scraped copper jacket after bullet insertion. This has been when I do not break the edges on the throat. I've pulled the bullets and found the witness mark of a scrape as a result of the sharp internal edge. I'm wondering why my results are different than yours. I'm running a 650 and RT-1200 trimmer with fresh blades. I ordered a pair of the Forstner cutters in .22 and 30 cal to have as models for a prototype design. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 11:18:38 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
COSteve, I congratulate you on your good results and attention. My results have been different. I have found circular rings of scraped copper jacket after bullet insertion. This has been when I do not break the edges on the throat. I've pulled the bullets and found the witness mark of a scrape as a result of the sharp internal edge. I'm wondering why my results are different than yours. I'm running a 650 and RT-1200 trimmer with fresh blades. I ordered a pair of the Forstner cutters in .22 and 30 cal to have as models for a prototype design. I've used brass that was trimmed on the Dillon by a processing service. Without chamfering, I get scratches and jacket damage. So, I use a Giraud. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 11:30:42 AM EDT
[#6]
My understand is the the Girald is a first class tool. However it would put me back to a one-at-a time manual process. My goal is to have this an in line process that is performed at a station on the reloader, eliminating the additional handling of the brass.
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Posted: 7/23/2015 3:48:29 PM EDT
[#7]
A lot of the guys over at the Brian Enos forums swear that tumbling after trimming with the Dillon trimmer knocks off any burrs on the inside or outside.
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Posted: 7/23/2015 5:22:26 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of the guys over at the Brian Enos forums swear that tumbling after trimming with the Dillon trimmer knocks off any burrs on the inside or outside. It does clean them up , thats how I do 300blk, I also like to run a M-die after the trimmer |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 6:23:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of the guys over at the Brian Enos forums swear that tumbling after trimming with the Dillon trimmer knocks off any burrs on the inside or outside. This is what I do. I also use a Lee Universal Flare die in the last station of my case prep toolhead - the slight belling of the case mouth works great to ease entry of the bullet base. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 9:36:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I use a Dillon 650 and currently making a run of 223. Processing the brass involves trimming, but the Dillon trimmer leaves a nice straight cut, but sharp edges that have to be removed. Chamfering is required to achieve consistent bullet insertion without cutting into the copper jacket. Currently I manually chamfer with a 60 degree countersink tool spinning in a lathe. I press each piece up to the cutter and drop it into the bin. Slow but effective, and it makes my thumb ache after a while clamping on the brass to keep from spinning. There are many options to do this in a separate operation. I would like to do this on the Dillon as part of inline processing. The Foster 3 in 1 trim tool is of interest. I am looking at possibly adapting it to use on the Dillon. It certainly would require a custom adapter. If someone has this tool, what is the OD. length, and shank arrangement? Does it set screw to a shaft? I'd like to work up a Solidworks model to see if I can sort out a design. Link Dillon states that they have looked into this and abandoned the idea due to cost. Suggestions? This is definitely not an inline operation. It's another step. Or two. But have you tried a fairly fast wet cleaning with stainless steel pins? I've used that to get rid of external flash from 7.62 NATO cases that I've trimmed with a Forster. Works surprisingly well. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:12:31 PM EDT
[#11]
I've never cleaned up the necks of any 5.56 or 7.62 NATO I've processed with my RT1200. Then again I'm using 55 gr or 147 gr fmj, and I'm loading for volume not absolute accuracy. I'm happy with 2 MOA out of my rifles, none of which are match guns, nor do I check accuracy from a bench rest. It's all from the prone, unsupported, no rest, no sling.
Tumbling off the lube seems to get rid of any nastiness left from the trimmer for me.... |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 11:18:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Brass from my dillon trimmer leaves a pretty rough cut. I don't chamfer though.. just wet tumble.
I agree that chamferrng is overrated for the most part.. but I also don't want it as sharp and unclean as the Dillon trimmer gives me.. and yes, I have changed the blade. Wet tumble is my answer to the OP.. cleans up the brass plenty for my use. If I was trying to reach 1000+ yards, maybe I would be doing something different.. But I wouldn't be with 223 anyway. |
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Posted: 7/24/2015 6:24:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Thank you all for your replies.
Bob |
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Posted: 7/24/2015 9:52:45 AM EDT
[#14]
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless.
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Posted: 7/24/2015 11:54:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Well, some people have different experiences. Rest assured everything you can do enhance the condition of the brass is of benefit. And, if chamfering and deburring did not matter, then perhaps those who advocate that it is not necessary for precision reloads ought to tell that to top level shooters who reload. Plus, when comparing Factory ammo loaded on machines that are a whole different animal than what most reloaders have available to them.
And, a lot of people like to baffle people with their assertions some steps are not necessary, to that I say they are cutting corners as a matter of choice. In the real world, for volume reloading using the Lyman M die after the Dillon Trimmer is a viable option to knock off the edge. Tumbling with SS pin is another viable option as you have to get rid of the lube some time! The Giraud trimmer is the cat's meow for sure! To each their own. |
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Posted: 7/24/2015 12:28:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. Not "pointless" at all. Loading rifle ammo in one step is not feasible on the Dillon XL650 as there are not enough stations. It can be done after one trimming and if you use an X-Die, but why bother keeping track of your brass for what would be, in the end, only a very minor streamlining of the process. I have a toolhead set up for rifle brass prep... lube up the brass and drop it in the case feeder, then crank the handle. The brass is decapped and neck sized, full length sized and trimmed, then lightly belled. Tumble in media for a short while and it is ready to load. Switch toolheads and I am off to the races. This really is a great way to crank out top quality ammo quickly and easily (I am exceptionally lazy). The only cost-effective way of loading rifle ammo in one step is the Dillon 1050... If you consider a pricetag close to 2K affordable. |
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Posted: 7/24/2015 3:05:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. You need to tumble to remove the lube after trimming anyway so I don't see how it is pointless? |
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Posted: 7/24/2015 5:54:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not "pointless" at all. Loading rifle ammo in one step is not feasible on the Dillon XL650 as there are not enough stations. It can be done after one trimming and if you use an X-Die, but why bother keeping track of your brass for what would be, in the end, only a very minor streamlining of the process. I have a toolhead set up for rifle brass prep... lube up the brass and drop it in the case feeder, then crank the handle. The brass is decapped and neck sized, full length sized and trimmed, then lightly belled. Tumble in media for a short while and it is ready to load. Switch toolheads and I am off to the races. This really is a great way to crank out top quality ammo quickly and easily (I am exceptionally lazy). The only cost-effective way of loading rifle ammo in one step is the Dillon 1050... If you consider a pricetag close to 2K affordable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. Not "pointless" at all. Loading rifle ammo in one step is not feasible on the Dillon XL650 as there are not enough stations. It can be done after one trimming and if you use an X-Die, but why bother keeping track of your brass for what would be, in the end, only a very minor streamlining of the process. I have a toolhead set up for rifle brass prep... lube up the brass and drop it in the case feeder, then crank the handle. The brass is decapped and neck sized, full length sized and trimmed, then lightly belled. Tumble in media for a short while and it is ready to load. Switch toolheads and I am off to the races. This really is a great way to crank out top quality ammo quickly and easily (I am exceptionally lazy). The only cost-effective way of loading rifle ammo in one step is the Dillon 1050... If you consider a pricetag close to 2K affordable. Gosh, unless the zombie apocalypse happens and I need rounds fast, I will continue to run my ammo processing on my 1050 in 2 passes.. It's fast enough for me.. Of course the autodrive helps... 
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Posted: 7/24/2015 6:49:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gosh, unless the zombie apocalypse happens and I need rounds fast, I will continue to run my ammo processing on my 1050 in 2 passes.. It's fast enough for me.. Of course the autodrive helps...
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. Not "pointless" at all. Loading rifle ammo in one step is not feasible on the Dillon XL650 as there are not enough stations. It can be done after one trimming and if you use an X-Die, but why bother keeping track of your brass for what would be, in the end, only a very minor streamlining of the process. I have a toolhead set up for rifle brass prep... lube up the brass and drop it in the case feeder, then crank the handle. The brass is decapped and neck sized, full length sized and trimmed, then lightly belled. Tumble in media for a short while and it is ready to load. Switch toolheads and I am off to the races. This really is a great way to crank out top quality ammo quickly and easily (I am exceptionally lazy). The only cost-effective way of loading rifle ammo in one step is the Dillon 1050... If you consider a pricetag close to 2K affordable. Gosh, unless the zombie apocalypse happens and I need rounds fast, I will continue to run my ammo processing on my 1050 in 2 passes.. It's fast enough for me.. Of course the autodrive helps...
I'm 2 passes too on the 1050 
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:02:40 PM EDT
[#20]
I use a Lyman M die on the last stage of prep. De burrs and preps case mouth.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 9:16:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need to tumble to remove the lube after trimming anyway so I don't see how it is pointless? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. You need to tumble to remove the lube after trimming anyway so I don't see how it is pointless? The op wanted to run straight through, and you don't need to tumble off lube if you use the right lube. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 11:15:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. I resize in station 1 and trim in station 4 on my 650 and then tumble off the lube. Where is the extra step? I'd tumble off the lube if I just resized anyway. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 11:18:32 AM EDT
[#23]
I'm curious why people report damage from non inside chamfered brass. I've personally removed bullets from precision commercial rounds, Hornady and Federal to name just two and my own and I've never seen any damage to their bullets. No commercial percision ammo maker chamfers the inside of their cases and they don't have damage. I also load plated bullets (both 110grn 30 Carbine and 150grn 30-30) in trimmed brass without inside chamfers and have had no damage to the bullets. Why do you then?
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Posted: 7/30/2015 11:32:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious why people report damage from non inside chamfered brass. I've personally removed bullets from precision commercial rounds, Hornady and Federal to name just two and my own and I've never seen any damage to their bullets. No commercial percision ammo maker chamfers the inside of their cases and they don't have damage. I also load plated bullets (both 110grn 30 Carbine and 150grn 30-30) in trimmed brass without inside chamfers and have had no damage to the bullets. Why do you then? I've seen damage to several Nosler Custom Competition bullets from poorly chamfered cases. I've aslo seen whole rings scraped off of Barnes TTSX bullets. IMO this is really only a concern in match ammunition though. I do my match brass prep on the 650 and then trim on my giraud. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 6:54:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Interesting. I've done a bunch of Hornady 68grn HPBT and Sierra 69grn HPBT for .223 as well as Hornady 168grn HPBT for .308, 300 Savage, and 30-06 and never seen any issues.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 9:57:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen damage to several Nosler Custom Competition bullets from poorly chamfered cases. I've aslo seen whole rings scraped off of Barnes TTSX bullets. IMO this is really only a concern in match ammunition though. I do my match brass prep on the 650 and then trim on my giraud. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm curious why people report damage from non inside chamfered brass. I've personally removed bullets from precision commercial rounds, Hornady and Federal to name just two and my own and I've never seen any damage to their bullets. No commercial percision ammo maker chamfers the inside of their cases and they don't have damage. I also load plated bullets (both 110grn 30 Carbine and 150grn 30-30) in trimmed brass without inside chamfers and have had no damage to the bullets. Why do you then? I've seen damage to several Nosler Custom Competition bullets from poorly chamfered cases. I've aslo seen whole rings scraped off of Barnes TTSX bullets. IMO this is really only a concern in match ammunition though. I do my match brass prep on the 650 and then trim on my giraud. That's the problem, Poorly Chamfered. I process 223 on the 1050, then load on the 650. In between it gets a 30 - 45 ish minute dry tumble with corn cob. In regards to what Steve said about ALL mfg don't chamfer, i've yet to see it. This after separating another 3K of 223 mixed hs. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 8:25:13 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I resize in station 1 and trim in station 4 on my 650 and then tumble off the lube. Where is the extra step? I'd tumble off the lube if I just resized anyway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. I resize in station 1 and trim in station 4 on my 650 and then tumble off the lube. Where is the extra step? I'd tumble off the lube if I just resized anyway. Again I thought op wanted to load straight through. If using the proper lube tumbling after sizing is not needed. I have a Hornady LNLAP and proper lube, I can and have loaded straight through( and trim on the press if I if I had and on press trimmer and still run my powder cop). I was under the impression the whole point of the Dillon trimmer was to load straight through, pardon my ignorance. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 8:48:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. I've done a bunch of Hornady 68grn HPBT and Sierra 69grn HPBT for .223 as well as Hornady 168grn HPBT for .308, 300 Savage, and 30-06 and never seen any issues. I've loaded the 68gr Hornady and 69gr Sierra MK and didn't have the problems damaging the projectile that I had with Nosler. I think the Nosler has a softer or thinner jacket making it more suseptible to damage. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 9:02:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Giraud
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Posted: 7/31/2015 1:33:47 PM EDT
[#30]
I see lots of discussion about potentially damaging the bullet if the trimmed brass is not inside-chamfered. As I indicated in my earlier post, I have managed to avoid this potential problem by adding a very slight amount of belling/flare (during case prep, after trimming and before tumbling) using a Lee Universal Flare Die in the last station of my case prep toolhead. The amount of flare is very minor - opens the case mouth inside diameter to about the same as the outside diameter of the bullet. All flare is taken out during the subsequent bullet seating step (I also use a Lee FCD in the last station of my loading toolhead to ensure all flare is removed, but this is probably not strictly necessary). This approach works great and does exactly what the OP asks.
If you want to load rifle ammo in one step on a Dillon XL650, the only way I know of is to use an RCBS X-Die (which has a mandrel to stop the brass growing during resizing). This approach still requires brass to be short-trimmed one time after first firing, before running through the X-Die on subsequent loadings. I experimented with an X-Die, but just found it too inconvenient to keep track of my brass. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:30:00 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The op wanted to run straight through, and you don't need to tumble off lube if you use the right lube. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looks like everybody just adds another step(tumbling) making trimming on the press pointless. You need to tumble to remove the lube after trimming anyway so I don't see how it is pointless? The op wanted to run straight through, and you don't need to tumble off lube if you use the right lube. Maybe Hornady One Shot but what else is there that is safe for powder? Even with that I still tumble after sizing as it needs to be done at some point (since I don't want the lube in my rifles chamber) and tumbling loaded ammo seems like a huge PITA. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:36:52 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen damage to several Nosler Custom Competition bullets from poorly chamfered cases. I've aslo seen whole rings scraped off of Barnes TTSX bullets. IMO this is really only a concern in match ammunition though. I do my match brass prep on the 650 and then trim on my giraud. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm curious why people report damage from non inside chamfered brass. I've personally removed bullets from precision commercial rounds, Hornady and Federal to name just two and my own and I've never seen any damage to their bullets. No commercial percision ammo maker chamfers the inside of their cases and they don't have damage. I also load plated bullets (both 110grn 30 Carbine and 150grn 30-30) in trimmed brass without inside chamfers and have had no damage to the bullets. Why do you then? I've seen damage to several Nosler Custom Competition bullets from poorly chamfered cases. I've aslo seen whole rings scraped off of Barnes TTSX bullets. IMO this is really only a concern in match ammunition though. I do my match brass prep on the 650 and then trim on my giraud. Doug once told me when I asked about a straight cutter for his trimmer "But if you honestly think because you are using boat tailed bullet that an internal chamfer is not needed, your accuracy requirements must be very low." after I told him I just wanted it for plinking 223 ammo at 200yds or less. It's funny though as I like COSteve have never seen factory ammo (including FGMM) that is chamfered and yet it shoots pretty darn well. I still have my Giraud but honestly plan on probably only using it for match 308 stuff while going with an RT-1500 at some point for everything else. I seriously can't figure out how it really matters if the bullet gets scratched anyway as it gets seriously deformed as it goes through the barrel one would think. The tip may matter but I just don't see a scratch or gouge in the side of the bullet really making much difference as to overall accuracy. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 6:13:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've loaded the 68gr Hornady and 69gr Sierra MK and didn't have the problems damaging the projectile that I had with Nosler. I think the Nosler has a softer or thinner jacket making it more suseptible to damage. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Interesting. I've done a bunch of Hornady 68grn HPBT and Sierra 69grn HPBT for .223 as well as Hornady 168grn HPBT for .308, 300 Savage, and 30-06 and never seen any issues. I've loaded the 68gr Hornady and 69gr Sierra MK and didn't have the problems damaging the projectile that I had with Nosler. I think the Nosler has a softer or thinner jacket making it more suseptible to damage. Interesting. Maybe you are on to something. They must be awful thin/soft be to be damaged when plated bullets aren't . . . . . . |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 1:50:01 AM EDT
[#34]
I use Dillon RT-1500 trimmers on 1050's and, after sizing/trimming, the case moth is expanded then flared enough that the bore diameter section of a boat-tail does not contact the case mouth. I also wet tumble which deburrs and slightly rounds off the edges.
Brass is initially cleaned in walnut shell for a couple of hours Brass prep stage yields very consistent headspace/trim length, swaged primer pockets, consistent neck inside diameters, and properly prepped case mouths- all with each pull of the handle. I then wet tumble for about 2 hours- brass looks like new with deburred case mouths, and the 100% water soluble case lube is gone. Dry brass. Loading time! |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 12:44:50 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doug once told me when I asked about a straight cutter for his trimmer "But if you honestly think because you are using boat tailed bullet that an internal chamfer is not needed, your accuracy requirements must be very low." after I told him I just wanted it for plinking 223 ammo at 200yds or less. Doug is in the business to make money selling his trimmer so of course he's going to say you need an inside chamfer as it in effect eliminates a major competitor's product that doesn't provide that. Not saying Doug is misleading anyone, I'm just saying he's got a vested interest in the debate. As for me, whether or not the inside chamfer works to increase accuracy is a question for the experts to debate as I'm certainly not one of them. All I know is that with my Dillon Trimmer mounted on my XL650, I handload 68grn Hornady .223 ammo using TAC powder on that same XL650 using normal progressive reloading steps that produces 5 shot groups at 100yds of 5/8" in my son's Savage model 10 with a Monarch 14 power scope. I think that is great precision while others may think that's so bad that it's time to get a new barrel. However, I'm also not trying to go for a 100 yd, .0076" or smaller, 5 shot World Record group either. I'm perfectly satisfied with the performance I get with the tools I have. Others are perfectly justified to decide to do whatever they believe best to produce the results they deem acceptable. It's really a live and let live issue to me. Best Group Ever Shot! |
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