For those of you who do/have reload for .223/5.56, what did you find that worked for you? I currently reload for .308 and wanted to get started in the smaller calibers.
I am not looking to shoot lights out at 800 yards, I am just looking to lower the cost on my ammo. I currently stick to what we shoot in the military, (I am Army) it's shoots well, cheap and plenty around. I did some research on the dies, it looks like I will be going with the RCBS .223 Rem/5.56 x 45 SB T/C Die Set. Now I just have to justify the cost of a Dillon 1050. I currently use a single stage Rockchucker Supreme that I have never had a issue with, but thinking of mas production for me and a buddy of mine. I have been reading about the Redding line as well, maybe the T-7? I would really like to go progressive, but the price is killing me.

The loads will be for a 16", SS, 5.56 AR that  I assembled.

Also, what are good prices for powder, primers, bullets?

So, what did you use?
Powder? Also, how much?
Primer?
Bullet?

Thanks...

First of all, if you reload .308 already, you shouldnt be asking these questions.  Not sure if trolling, but Ill bite...

Press:  Unless you really need to pump out 800+ rounds per hour, Id consider a Dillon 650 or Hornady LnL with case feeder and a Mr Bullet Feeder.  Im pretty sure either press will produce enough ammo for a couple of guys.  Heck of alot cheaper than a 1050 as well.  A Redding T7 is a turret press, not a progressive
Dies:  No real reason to run small base dies.  Someone else can comment, but no reason to overwork the brass.  Buy any brand you like.  I like Hornady.
Powder:  H335, meters great, price is right, but lots of options.  I suggest you look on Hodgon's website and buy a reloading manual or three.
Primer:  I run Federal AR primers, but lots of choices out there.  Dont want anything that is too soft.
Bullets:  Bulk boxes of Hornady 55gr FMJ's are likely the best way to go.

I am assuming you have all the rest of the tools needed to prep, trim, etc?

Your stated goal is to save money.   This is based on the assumption that you will not simply shoot that much more ammunition.  Good luck with that.



From a cost analysis perspective, reloading is "cheaper" than buying commercial ammunition.  Depending on the prices, you will likely "break even" (i.e. same cost per round of commercial vs. reloaded ammo w/reloading gear) somewhere around the 4K - 6K round mark, after which you will start "saving" money on your endeavor.



I haven't bought components in a while (I stacked rather deep years ago and continue to do so when I see good prices), but based on the prices I see out there today, you are going to be looking at around 20+ cents per round for .223 ammunition, as compared to about 35 cents per round for commercial.



If you are going to reload in bulk long term, buying the dillon makes perfect sense.



If you are going to reload for a while and then give up, stick with single stage.  The cost analysis is very much better with a few hundred dollars into it vs. a few thousand.



Don't forget you'll eventually want to automate annealing of cases, get a powered brass trimmer, etc.  All of which will eventually add up to make the dillon press look like the "cheap part" of reloading...







 

Aint that the truth.  There is always something new to buy...  

As far breaking even, if a guy was to shoot say 1000 rounds a month.  If factory ammo is $.40 a round, thats $400 per month.  Reloads would be roughly $.20 per round, so $200 per month.  Over the course of a year, thats a savings of $2400.  So your math for break even on $1000 worth of equipment is around 5 months or 5000 rounds, so you are about right on.

For something like 300 BO where the factory ammo is stupid expensive, you will break even even faster.  My reloads are about $.30 per, factory ammo is all over the place, starting around $.80 per.  Pistol ammo break even is a little slower than 5.56.

Wideners usually has really good prices on components.   You could start stocking up on projos and powder/primers.

I really don't currently load 556, I stocked up on cheap ball ammo.   When I can buy factory M193 for less than .30 CPR, I'm not loading it.   But when I did load it was on a 550. Worked pretty well doing a separate brass prep before it hit the 550.

As much as I like a 1050, they have a 1 yr warranty....think about that.  A 650 will spit that stuff out pretty quick and have the lifetime warranty.

Yeah, you'll still end up with sticker shock from a 650 with a case feeder, but you will end up wondering how you did without a progressive so long.  And if you want to load some pistol ammo, it is super easy on a 650.

I don't "mass produce" ammo and like dryflash3 I don't use SB dies.

However, for what you propose, mass production and various guns, I can't flatly disagree with your choice of dies.

Do research your plan well before jumping in. You'll be glad you did.

Motor1

Thanks for the replies, even the smart ass ones....
I don't reload for a living, I reload for my .308, it is a precision shooting rifle, the 5.56 shoots accurate enough for me. Actually pretty damn accurate, but nothing compared to the .308. When my shoulder heals, I plan on heading out and shooting once again. I just had surgery from a injury I got while in AFG. One of the main reasons for going progressive is because when I do go shoot, it's not for a half hour and then run to the mall. I stay out for several hours, and shoot to have fun, or develop loads. It's funny to see how quick people judge others without even knowing them a little. I figure they just want to look cool in front of others and seem important.

Yes, I have all the tools and parts I need to reload, thanks for asking.

I know there are all sorts of books with the information I asked for (I have the 49 as recommended), but they are for getting close and that's it. I was hoping for a better response than some gave, but the others were what I had hoped for. Yeah, I can start out with a load straight from the book and then begin to develop from there when I head out. But, sometimes its a little better and cheaper to ask first and see what others found along the way.

During my research, I did find that the XL650 with all the add-ons would be near the cost of s 1050 in the long run. Yes, the T-7 is a turret, not a progressive, I never said it was, just another choice.  At least with T-7, I would not have to keep changing out dies as I would if I stay with the Rockchucker.

Back to the topic, as most know, the progressive (either the xl650 or the 1050) will spit out rounds much faster than I can with the RC. And yes, even though I will be using green tip ammo and then reloading it, at the rate I like to shoot in a month, it will pay off in a short while, and be worth the investment. Not to mention, I can teach my son and buddy to load correctly, and then we can load even more when each persons time allows.

Not saying that anyone else is wrong, but more than one place that I have researched said to stick with the SB dies, why not? I understand it will work the case a little more and such. Have you experienced an issue or something?

Thanks again for the positive responses, the rest can go play big meany someplace else..................

Using a SB die can shorten your case life. I have seen this first hand although it was with a .308 Win not a .223/5.56

If you have tons of brass to go through this may not be an issue for you.

A SB die can also cause your ammo to be less accurate because of the loose fit in the chamber.

Again, this may not be an issue for your personal needs.

Using the SB WILL or at least should insure your ammo will cycle in most anything you try it in.

That's basically it for the SB question.

Motor1

Thanks Motor1, I've never used a sb die before, so someone with more insight is good to have. What dies do you recommend? I planned on starting out with the load that is used in the green tip, and go from there. I have several thousand rounds of it on hand, and my stick shoots its well. The dies I use for my .308 are RCBS, and have never failed me in reloading just under 2,000 rounds. Not much of a number, but I don't shoot it often, it's pretty much a done deal. As it was said earlier, I could just save the money and buy more ammo like I have, I just thought it would be good to have the knowledge and also a great time killer between seasons. Like I said before, the 5.56 is more for fun, than it is for precision.
Regards

Get several good reloading manuals from the bullet manufacturers you use, and also consult the on-line version for different powder manufacturers.  I have Nosler, Speer, Barnes and Berger manuals at the moment.  The power data, particularly for IMR and Hodgdon is on line at the Hodgdon web site for free.  While they have data for most bullets, it is not comprenensive.  They simply cannot test and publish for every bullet and powder combo that might work.  Hornady also publishes limited load data on-line for its bullets.  If you find consensus from these various sources on an particular bullet/powder combination, chances are good that it will perform well for you.  

There are many different views about optimal powder/primer/bullet combinations.  The more information you have from bullet and powder manufacturers you have the better off you are, IMHO.  As good as advice in this forum may be, honestly, you really have do do you homework.  The people who market the powder and make the bullets are always the best source.

There is a group of 5.56 powders that usually work well with most bullets and opinions and results vary pretty widely in the chase for optimal velocity and accuracy with a particular bullet.

In no particular order, some of the 5.56/223 powders for me are:   H-4895, H-335, TAC, Benchmark, RL-15, CFE-223, H-322, BL-C(2) and sometimes Varget. I am using H-4895 mostly, simply because I have a lot of it and it works well for me.  H-335 is also a favorite, and is probably the single most recommended powder for 5.56/233, and I would not argue the point.  It certainly meters better.    There are many TAC fans.  I'm playing with Benchmark right now and like it.  BL-C(2) is an old standby that has served well, but is less popular now.  There is no one "best" powder.

Just about any powder that works well for your .308 will probably work for 5.56/223, although some will be better than others with particular bullets.  I use IMR-4064 a lot in .308 and understand it is also good in 5.56, but have no personal experience with it in the latter.

And every rifle barrel and chamber is different.  What is optimal for one rifle may not be in another of the same barrel length and chamber spec   Consult the manuals and work up your loads carefully beginning at least 10% below max.  Best accuracy may not be maximum velocity.  You probably already know these things.

Full size dies work great for 5.56 chambers.  I see no great difference in the major die brands.  If shooting bullets with a cannalure, like the Hornady 55 grain FMJBT that I use for plinking, I do like to crimp and recommend the separate Lee crimping die for that.  Otherwise, RCBS, Lee, Hornady, Lyman, even old Herter dies continue to work fine for me.  For precision reloading you do need good bullet seating dies.  That would be Redding or Forster or like.

I use an old heavy, solid and strong 6 die turret press.  Works fine and I don't have to change out or reset or adjust the dies very much.  I reload for many different cartridges, but 5.56 is getting most of the press time, so I have the regular two dies, a bullet puller die and a crimp die all in the turret and simply rotate between them as needed..  I have two holes open for use when I reload other stuff, or for a precision micrometer type seating die for benchrest type loads.

Just use what you have for your .308.  Unless you shoot high volume that would be fine.  I do like my turret press.  It is not progressive reloading, but it does save time.  I do one operation on all cases at one time, then rotate the turrent and do the next operation with everything already adjusted and ready to go..

You should also look at the Hornady LNL AP. Great press. I have one, and I also have a Redding T7. I use the T7 for my precision 223/308/6.8 stuff and use the AP for bulk 223 runs (plinking) and 9 mm pistol ammo.

The AP is very quick if you add on the case feeder. Hornady also makes a new .223 bullet feeder for it that is supposed to be awesome, and probably makes it as quick as a 1050.

ZA

As I stated in my first reply I don't mass produce ammo I load on a single stage press. I don't crimp my ammo for my AR or any other semi auto I load.

I don't load for a bunch of different rifles the same ammo.

So I don't really do what you intend so I'm not really the best guy to ask.

There are plenty of guys on this forum that do though. Many use Dillon equipment.

The sure thing I can suggest is a Lee FCD (Factory crimp Die). I don't like the taper crimp for rifle and would never consider mass producing with a roll crimp. I assume you will crimp the type of ammo you want to load.

I may be wrong but IIRC I've read on here that Dillon .223 dies are small base. I could be wrong though.

I also know that by far more people on this forum use standard sizing dies for their .223 AR and other semi auto platforms than not.

As I stated in my first post here. Considering your intentions I can't flatly disagree with your first choice of dies.

You may very well though get by just fine with standard sizing dies.

Just hang in there and wait for more replies.

There is a lot of good information to be had on this forum. You do need to sort it some at times though.

Motor1

Every now and then someone probably get a hold of an AR15 with a tight, tight chamber and reloads made with regular dies won't cut it.

I've reloaded for 8 AR15's and none of them have needed a small based die.  I've used Hornday, Lee and RCBS X dies.

I've used mostly IMR4198 and 55 grain Hornady FMJ.  I've used some TAC.  My son really likes H335 for his .223/AR15 reloads.

I've used IMR 4895, IMR 3031, H322, BLC2, W748 and a couple others but when I want accurate loads I use IMR4198.  TAC is a new powder for me and I just started working with it.

I've used CCI, Federal and Tula small rifle primers.

As someone mentioned earlier, check out the Hornady 55 grain FMJ bullets.  You can buy bulk boxes of 5,000 (or is it 6,000??) bullets cheaper than just about anything else.

Good luck, be safe.

If you go progressive to get the full advantage I think you'll need the dillion trimmer. I don't have that trimmer but I load on a LnL and sizing then trimming off press kills production.

If you want a compromise of price and accuracy look no further than bulk 55gr offerings from Hornady.

For powder I suggest ball or very short cut stick, weighing every charge will kill production, major variances will kill accuracy. Benchmark is a favorite. Tac, BL-C(2), H335, AA2230, Exterminator, W748, will do the job admirably along with others so long as the loads are developed right.

Primers don't matter too much. CCI 41s if you're hung on mil spec.

I load with Hornady dies and have yet to find the rifle they won't feed in, I'm sure it's out there, and I don't have access to any MG brass.

Use a good lube. Lanolin based sprays properly applied are a godsend for bulk loading.

Mark your brass so you don't have to check for primer crimps or trim everytime you load.

Nobody is trying to be unhelpful, but these questions get asked a lot and typically not by experienced loaders. A little net search will likely reveal dozens of very similar threads at Arfcom alone.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I would be one of those smart asses
Sorry man, people ask general questions they should know the answer to, they get smart ass answers.

You have gotten some good answers.  Ill expand a little bit on a couple things.

Lots of powders out there.  I suggested H335 because it works good, and it meters great, which is super important in a progressive, red or blue or green.  Look for a ball powder that works well with the load you want to run, that you can get in good quantity.  
Primers, buy alot of them.  Thats all I can say.
Hornady 55gr FMJs are likely going to be the best bullet you can buy,  And you can get them in cases of 6k for a decent price.  Watch the shipping charges though.  Some places will gouge the shit out of you.

Buy components in BULK.

Now lets look at what you are trying to do, load ammo in bulk, and the logistics of it.

Press:  For what you plan on doing, I would still buy a 650.  I have a LnL.  I like it.  I load 4 different calibers on mine.  It was inexpensive.  The 1050 is a beast no doubt, but at $2000 out the door and setup, the 650 is probably a better option for $1200ish.  The Dillon guys can speak better to this, but the 650 is easier and cheaper to do change overs on as well.  That is a concern if you ever do decide to start up another caliber.  650 can also swage if you need it to, just have to get the part for it.  Also, if you decide that you need a 1050, the 650 will hold its value, so you can just sell it, and go up a model.  Just my $.02.

Case Feeder:  Your talking about doing alot of loading.  Case feeder is a must to get production up.  Both Hornady and Dillon have case feeders.  The Dillon handles cases better.  I still occasionally have issues with my LnL and case tipping when the case comes into the shell plate.  Probably can be tuned out.  Not gonna sweat it right now.  However for bulk loading, messing around is really not an option.

Bullet Feeder:  Mr Bullet Feeder.  I dont need to say anything else.  The system it uses is light years ahead of anything else.  Just my opinion.

Dies:  I still say buy Hornady dies.  Buy a Lee FCD.

Case prep:  This is the devil.  You will have to 2 pass your ammo.  Once to prep, once to load.  Build or buy a wet tumbling setup, and never look back.  Buy a case trimmer from Dillon.  First pass is decap, size and trim.  From there I would strongly consider going to SSTL wet tumbling, as you can avoid deburring and chamfering case mouths, the SSTL pins do it for you.  Then its back in the press to load.

Gonna throw one more thing in the mix.  RCBS is releasing new 5 and 7 stage progressive presses this year.  Depending on when your buying, might be worth a look.  

Here's the Army's recipe:




Olin sold the factory that made Winchester WC844 powder (it is now General Dynamics - Saint Marks Powders).  It is sold commercially (without military flash suppressant) through Hodgdon as H335.

Brass sized in full length dies may or may not work flawlessly through your chambers.  If not, measure your sized cases against the Army data sheet (especially the dimension of the case just above the extractor groove, .3759 inches -.0050") to determine if you want or need to use small base dies.

Gentlemen, I applaud you all for the latest comments. You have saved my faith in the knowledge that can be found here and how it was delivered. All great information, and well thought out.

I am still up in the air on which dies, they seem to fall into two categories for me:
1) SB dies, not the best for military brass, has potential for crack the dies over time
2) Standard dies, I am already used to going the "long route" with them, so it will be nothing new to me.

For now I am going to stay with my RC, I might buy a T-7, I lie that there are multiple dies already seated, just "spin to win". As far as the progressive, I learned a long time ago, "buy once, cry once". I could get the XL650 when the time comes, but for the price to eventually build it to a 1050, why not just go that route? I will hold off for sure to see what RCBS comes out with this year, for now I can start heading in g the right direction by at least prepping the brass, and buying the supplies.

If you have more information, please add it, I just ask that you follow the precedence that was set in the previous posts.

So this is the list so far from Midway,
1) RCBS #10 shell holder x2
product number 797095
2) Redding 2-die set Rem .223  
product number 592925
3) Armscor 62 grain x 1,000
product number 9996244
4) CCI Small Military Primers #41 x 1,000
product number 170074
5) RCBS Pocket Swager
product number 319662
 
The next three are only if I really feel like it.
6) Forster Primer Pocket Cleaner
product number 625701
7) Redding T-7 Press
product number 588482
8) Redding Auto Primer feeder
product number 805529

All in total comes to $643.81, granted, just about $350.00 of that is only if I decided to buy the last three items.

Side note, I don't have RCBS dies, they are Redding, and have worked flawlessly for me.

The other option for swaging is to cut the crimps with a RCBS or Hornady crimp cutting tool.  Cheaper, and maybe a little faster.  I use the RCBS one, works like a champ.

Why those bullets?  The 55gr Hornady's are cheaper and likely more accurate.

Dont sweat the pocket cleaning in my opinion.  Just adds a step not really needed.  Consider going to SSTL wet tumbling if you want clean primer pockets.

Add in a Lee Factory Crimp Die and youll be set for dies.

The rest looks good.

Why those bullets? The 55gr Hornady's are cheaper and likely more accurate.
Basically, it's what I have shot in the past through my latest build. I am very used to the ballistics of the round, and I'm happy with the results ;-) I have several thousand rounds of them, and I won't have to buy brass for a while, especially if I don't over power the load.... As I said before, I plan on moving the powder amount around some, to see what the barrel likes most.


Add in a Lee Factory Crimp Die and youll be set for dies.
So, you see a need to tighten up the crimp even more?

FCD: Just personal experience talking here, but the last thing I want is set back on a bullet because it didnt get crimped and my gun to go boom.  Just not worth it.  I run a super light crimp.  May hurt accuracy a little bit.  YMMV

Neck Tension>Crimp. No issues with not crimping, especially plinking loads. Hunting or combat loads sure since they can get knocked around, but not needed for paper punching, IMO.

You should also consider a powered case trimmer like a Gracey or Giraud.

I have a Dillon 550 and a Redding T-7.  You already have a Rock Chucker, which puts you in good position.  The Rock Chucker can do all your sizing (where you need torque without flexing) while a cheap but straight press with something like Forster Benchrest dies can seat your bullets to match standard.

I hand-seat primers so I have a feel for whether or not primer pockets are failing.

I anneal after every firing to stretch case life as long a possible.  I use a small base die for a number of rifles all shooting hand loads (Camp Perry National Match rifles to bunny and coyote busters with factory Colt MIL SPEC barrels and Grand Canyon chambers).  After sizing I check for stretching to avoid incipient case separation risk.

I trim everything on a Giraud trimmer.

The goal for my own personal hand loading is consistency with both safety and economy with optimum performance and feeding.

I KNOW my hand loads beat factory ammunition.

If you're using bullets that don't have a cannelure groove, do not apply a crimp.

Regarding SB dies:  I reload for several rifles (a couple of AR's including a Remington 700 and Mini-14) and haven't had any need for SB dies with any of the chambers.  Only issue I had with a tight chamber was .308Win sized through a Lee Die.  I sized them through RCBS dies and the chambered fine.

Regarding powders:  if you reload .308, it's likely you already have a powder that'll work well in a .223 case.  I use BLC2 and IMR 3031 due to availability, but have also had good results with H335 and Varget.