Hi guys,

I'm just about to order a custom rifle, and i'm debating calibers. Perhaps some of you could help. My mind is pretty much made up, but someone with more experience might have something to contribute before I send the order.

If you've ever actually used and reloaded .30-06 AI, I'd love to hear about your experiences. I am particularly interested in info on brass forming, brass life, and actual velocities. Also interested in how smoothly the round chambers from a bolt gun.

I've got a safe full of rifles. Its been fun, but keeping them straight starts to get... interesting. Is this one sighted with the 165 grain loads or the 180s? Did I rezero that one after I switched those Accubonds for the Partitions? Switching up rifle to rifle to rifle isn't helping my shooting. I think I'll be better with one good rifle i shoot a whole to more, for nearly all medium and large game purposes. It will be used on deer, eastern moose, black bear, and caribou. Maybe elk. I'll likely use it on woodchucks, foxes and coyote too, just for the practice. No realistic chance of Alaskan Moose or Brown Bears, so that is sort of irrelevant.

Range is irrelevant. Maybe the cartridge can shoot 600 yards. On game I'm realistic enough to know that 300 yards is a long way. I took my last moose with a 292 yard shot to the head. Worked great, but I don't wanna repeat that if possible. I won't shoot game beyond that 300 yard limit. And the differences between .308, .3006, 300 mags, 280 Ackley and the rest don't amount to much at muzzle-to-300 yards.

The easiest thing is 'Buy .300 Mag." That would be too easy, and I'm not particularly interested. This will be a HS Precision SPL, and chambered for Magnum, the recoil will be more than I particularly want to have in a semi-lightwieght rifle.

The .30-06 will readily do everything I want to do. Deer, elk, moose and bears. 180 grains Nosler partition or Barnes TTSX will kill it all. But you gotta admit, the .30-06 is little 'vanilla' for a custom rifle.

Enter the .30-06 Ackley. Yah, I know its not one of the "better" AI cartridges, with only a 100 fps or so increase in velocity. Supposedly greatly reduced bolt trust, and longer case life. When I compile data on the ackley improved, compensate for barrel length, and crunch the numbers for a realistic bunch of loads, I'm showing a 120-125 fps increase in velocities... I'm looking at

30-06 2732 ave
30-06AI 2860 ave
300 H&H 2894 ave
300WSM 2975 ave

I know individual loads are higher and lower. These are overall composite averages for comparison sake. Individual loads are all over the map, so I aggregated data and speed for each caliber, using a half dozen or so common powders. All are for 24" barrel.

That 120 fps boost isn't huge. But its an improvement. That 120 feet is somewhat greater than the difference between most 180 grain .308 and a .30-06 loads... 120 fps sort of brings the .30-06 honestly damned close to .300 H&H speeds, and just about evenly splits the difference between .30-06 and .300 WSM. And does so with less recoil.

Yah. You gotta form brass. 120 fps isn't huge, but it seems to certainly but a little boost on the already pretty damned good .30-06. And it does have a certain panache....

Any comments, good bad or ugly?

Thanks

Fro

Standard 06, 200gr at 2750. Is it worth trying to get more?

If it was me I would stay away from belted cases too.

The perfect caliber choice for what you want to do is .270 Winchester Short Magnum

No I don't have one, yet. But I do have a Reading 3 die set.

I've been shooting a .30-06 AI for about 20 years, A Bill Wiseman custom Sako.  150's at 3100, 180's to 2950, 200's at 2850 ft/secs.

I'm on my 2nd 30-06 Ackley
28" barrel, lilja fluted rem varmint contour 10 twist
2900-3000fps is easy with 180 gr bullets
I can't think of a negative for the ackley 30-06
Great bullet selection in 30 cal and the newer powder selections make it a win.
I use lapua brass. I fire form with trail boss powder and 145 gr surplus bullets.

I don't think .30-06 is too vanilla for what you seek



Easy to load for, incredible selection of good bullets, capable of anything from varminting with 110 grain projectiles to long-range mortar lobs with 208 amax's. That said, what motor1 said rings true as well. I built up a custom 270 (not a short mag, just a 270) in a precision rig, and it has fallter trajectories out to 1k yards compared to most '06 loads, with less recoil and the same powder consumption. Bucks the wind a little better, too. Both cartridges are forgiving and easy to reload, and have good barrel life compared to things like 300WM.

Few years back I used a 308 rem varmint contor barrel and ran a 30-06 ackley reamer in the chamber
A 30-06 will not clean a 308 chamber so I went with the ackley
I used this budget build rifle for a NM Oryx hunt
I took a Oryx at 344yds with a 180gr game king and a stout dose of H4350
Bang flop

I've been having this debate with myself as well.


I really want one big game rifle that I can use for anything up to moose.




I'm thinking more along the lines of .280AI. I can buy Nosler brass, or fireform if I want to save a bit of money.




7mm bullets have pretty good BCs, especially with the new Accubond LR. Out to 300 this doesn't really matter though.




I'm also thinking about a 6.5-280AI, but that's a different story. That's a little more work.




I have a .243AI right now, and it feeds absolutely terribly. I'm going to make it mag fed and see if that works. Out of over 100 rounds so far I don't think 1 has fed correctly.




.30-06AI is one hell of a caliber though, as is the plain old .30-06. Adequate for just about anything in NA in my book.


 

ETA: The feeding issue might be because of the action, not the case shape itself. It has been... modified.

Just to muddy the waters for you a little more:

If you want to push 200gr bullets faster out of a 30-06 case, have you considered a 35 Whelen?      

Thanks for input...

As for 280AI...  Yah,  I thought about that one.  I really want to stick to .30 cal.  

As for 338-06, 35 whelen, etc.  Recoil jumps, which I just as soon avoid, and I'd like to shoot it more.  I already have a 350 Rem Mag, and with the price of nosler partitions in these cals, it gets spendy

Oh great, crush my dreams, thanks buddy.

You must be reloading to even consider the AI

Get the 300 Win Mag and load it down to 30/06 for most of your hunting/shooting (or buy the reduced recoil factory loads) and when you go after the bigger tougher game you have the full 300WM loads.

You want to shoot or spend half your time making brass?

I understand some folks like messing about with the wildcats but unless you really have a yearning to have something out of the ordinary they are just a pain in the butt and hard to resell.

Years ago when there were lots of gaps performance wise in the stock calibers but with what we have available these days with calibers, better bullets and available powders and semi custom loadings the wildcats are not that attractive.

I have the feeling the OP has already made his mind up and is going ahead with this project and I hope he has fun with it

Can you load 30-06 Springfield to get 120fps rather than go with a cartridge you can't readily find? Or add an inch to the barrel.

 
If you can get 120fps more out of a .30-06 you can get that much more out of the .30-06AI as well.


As far as spending time forming cases, it's just part of the fun. I got a whopping 2 loadings out of some once fired .243 cases. 1 to form them to AI and one reloaded as AI before I got loose primer pockets. It sucks, but now I have a reason to make more forming loads.


For some people it's worth it, for others it's not.


OP, if you really want to stay with the .30 cal (and I can't blame you, there's nothing wrong with it) the .30-06AI is a great caliber.


I enjoy fire forming and working up loads. I spend more time in front of the reloading bench than I do shooting, and that is fine by me.

One or two points to add to what has already been shared.

The idea of needing to fire form your brass has been stated, but the reality is your brass will last a long time so it isn't like you spend that much time fire forming.

The .30-06AI will do a good job hunting the game you mentioned within 300 yards. With modern bullets, my opinion is it would be more like a 500 yard rig with no trouble.

Nothing wrong with any of the other ones being mentioned either. They are all good performers in the right hands.

Nothing wrong with your choice either way. Good Luck and Good Hunting!

Sounds like you have done your research and have made up your mind.  Good on you.

The 30-06 AI is cool.  It can be loaded to +2900+ fps with a 180gr Partition with a 24 inch barrel.

It performs better with heavier bullets like the 180gr vs the 165gr.

My 30-06 shines with Slow for cartridge powders like 7828 and R-22.

Fireforming is a piece of cake and can be done in your garage. It's called the "COW" or cream of wheat method.  Small charge of a shotgun or pistol powder(I use Red Dot) cream of wheat then topped off with a piece of paper towel.

I have two AI's, a rem 700 in 30-06 and a Savage in 7mm-08, feeding is perfect on both rifles.

Enjoy!

hmmmm.

cream of wheat fire forming.  I had forgotten about that.  Thats of use, since it eliminates  or reduces one of the minor hangups I had over the AI.

I just knew I'd get something good info wise, good or bad, from this forum.

Thanks

fro

http://gunsmagazine.com/fireforming-brass/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/02/tech-tip-fire-forming-with-pistol-powder/

http://www.angelfire.com/sd/6mmackley/fireforming.html

Thanks steve.

Thats VERY useful. I appreciate it. It would allow me to fire form in my backyard, without actually using bullets, and without backstop issues.  You just removed one barrier....

I did send you an email

Fro

If you want to stay with 30 cal the AI is an excellent choice.  It seems to burn the powder better.

Using VV powders, maybe 560, will give you another 100 or more fps.

I got 270 velocities from a 270-08 AI that way.

Hmmm.  just saw info on Hydrauic Case forming too....



Steve,

How many loadings are you getting with your cases???  And do you have any actual chromo readings for those loads?  Your barrel length???

Nosler has Data for the 30-06 AI.

They list 2985fps with 180gr Partitions with R-22 out of a 24 inch barrel.

http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/30-06-springfield-ackley-improved/

I found this data to be pretty accurate with my Rem 700, but I couldn't get R-22 to satisfy my accuracy needs.

I prefer IMR 7828.

The following Data is a computer model and is NOT actual Pressure Tested Data.  For reference only.

 Cartridge          : .30-06 Ack Imp

Bullet             : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331

Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.332 inch or 84.63 mm

Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm

Powder             : IMR 7828



Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,

incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !



Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time

 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms



-20.0   93    52.00   2284    2085   30349   8305     82.7    1.538

-18.0   96    53.30   2348    2204   32564   8629     84.4    1.495

-16.0   98    54.60   2413    2327   34957   8945     86.1    1.453

-14.0  100    55.90   2479    2456   37544   9253     87.7    1.409

-12.0  103    57.20   2545    2589   40347   9550     89.2    1.361

-10.0  105    58.50   2612    2727   43387   9835     90.6    1.315

-08.0  107    59.80   2680    2870   46691  10106     92.0    1.271

-06.0  110    61.10   2748    3018   50285  10362     93.3    1.227

-04.0  112    62.40   2816    3170   54207  10599     94.4    1.186

-02.0  114    63.70   2885    3328   58494  10818     95.5    1.146  ! Near Maximum !

+00.0  117    65.00   2955    3490   63188  11015     96.5    1.107  ! Near Maximum !

+02.0  119    66.30   3025    3657   68346  11189     97.3    1.069  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+04.0  121    67.60   3095    3828   74027  11338     98.1    1.032  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+06.0  124    68.90   3165    4004   80303  11460     98.7    0.997  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+08.0  126    70.20   3236    4185   87265  11554     99.2    0.962  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+10.0  128    71.50   3307    4371   95015  11616     99.6    0.929  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!



Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge

Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:

+Ba    117    65.00   3123    3899   76846  10902     99.9    1.019  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:

-Ba    117    65.00   2732    2984   51286  10424     88.1    1.219

  

Been using 1 for 15+ years.  


Go with 180g or greater bullets.
The Nosler Partition or standard Accubond will take anything in the USA when shooting at 300 yards or less.
Use RL-22 for a compressed lower pressure load.  Use RL-17 for the max (60K psi).
COW is ok, plinking with a medium load and cheap bullets is more fun when fireforming.
Formed brass will last a loooong time especially if you anneal.
24"-26" barrel is ideal.

Bend...  Did you ever chromo any of those Ai loads???

I see the Nosler data, but it seems ....  "optimistic".  Just looking for a real world data check

Thanks

Fro

Even the first shot to form can produce decent performance in many AI cases.

Just looking at the ballistic performance increase you are wanting/rationalizing, you can get that with the 30-06 and Hodgdon Superformance powder.

Looking at that lightweight rifle and trying to keep recoil down, a 6.5x55 Swede is a great cartridge, just a thought.

 Just think of the performance he can get with Superformance in his AI.

Wow, Ay?

At that point he'd be at 300 WM performance, and might as well get that, ay?

Naw, belted sucks and the Short has limited capacity in the mag.

Plus 06 brass is cheap and everywhere, even good stuff like Lapua is available.  Lapua discontinued 300 WM brass awhile ago.

My accuracy loads were all in the 2850-2900 fps bracket with the 180g Partition and later with the Accubond.