308 case sizing issues

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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:20:30 PM EDT

I've just started my venture into reloading and am taking it slowly. I'm trying to build a few dummy rounds (no primers or powder) in each caliber that I plan to reload for. So far things have been going well with the recent exception of the 308.

I'm using an RCBS X-Die Full Length sizer die. I've got everything setup according to the instructions -- e.g. cases are trimmed to 0.020" under max case length (which should be 1.995") and the mandrel is backed out so that it is not touching the mouth of the case when sizing for the first time.

I've measured as much as I can around the different parts of the sized cases and everything appears to be within spec. However, my newly acquired Sheridan case gauge says otherwise and I'm at a loss.

A couple of notes:

-The 2 once-fired cases were fired in a 308 AR platform
-When resizing, the case is running 100% into the sizer die
-The 223 version of this exact same setup works fine in terms of the case gauge giving the "all clear"

Here are a few photos for reference.

Once-fired and resized PMC Bronze case:

Once-fired and resized Lake City case with a seated 150 grain bullet:

An unfired factory Lake City 150 grain cartridge:

The top of the once-fired and resized Lake City case:

The top of the unfired Lake City 150 grain cartridge:

Any tips, tricks, guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Posted: 10/21/2014 9:01:54 PM EDT

[#1]

Die instructions are where you start from.

Then you adjust your sizing die to fit your chamber.

You will need to lower your sizing die. It's possible the shellholder will contact the bottom of the sizing die when correctly adjusted. Normal.

Posted: 10/21/2014 9:05:42 PM EDT

[#2]

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Quoted:

Die instructions are where you start from.

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Then you adjust your sizing die to fit your chamber.

You will need to lower your sizing die. It's possible the shellholder will contact the bottom of the sizing die when correctly adjusted. Normal.

Yep, looks like you need to screw the sizing die into the press a bit more.

I recently helped a friend setup reloading .308 for an AR-10 after a good bit of time loading .223. We had the same issue at first with resizing. It seemed a bit off as we thought the die was down enough when it touched the shell plate, but had all sort of feed issues. Finally ended up needing to crank the die down another quarter turn or so and that solved it. It was much more adjustment than we experienced loading .223, so it wracked our heads a bit until we figured it out.

Posted: 10/21/2014 9:47:51 PM EDT

[#3]

ditto Yep, looks like you need to screw the sizing die into the press a bit more

Posted: 10/21/2014 9:51:54 PM EDT

[#4]

Are your case rims deformed enough that they are hanging up on the edge of the gage??

Posted: 10/22/2014 7:56:35 AM EDT

[#5]

Thanks for the advice guys. I did start with the die instructions -- if anyone uses RCBS dies, then you probably already know their instructions leave a quite a lot to be desired. Anyway, I will try spinning the die down a bit further tonight and see what happens.

Regarding the case rims, I don't think they are deformed enough that they are hanging on the edge of the gauge, but it definitely looks close.

I'll report back later tonight.

Posted: 10/22/2014 9:39:16 AM EDT

[#6]

Okay, I actually had a few minutes this morning before heading out to try a few things.

First, I tried spinning the die further and further down into the press until it was spun all the way down. Each time I spun it further, I re-tried one of the problematic cases...no change.

Then, I started pulling random cases out of the batch that I sized this past weekend. Just under 50% of them demonstrated the same problem to varying degrees -- some were just barely out of spec, while others had the rim of the case sticking out well above the top of the case gauge. The other 50%+ fell right into the case gauge without issue. The entire batch is a mix of Lake City and PMC which were fired from a semi-auto, and a handful of Federal(?) which were fired from a bolt action. Even some of the bolt action cases demonstrated the problem, while others did not.

It appears to me at least, to have something to do with the bottom of the case -- right above the base. It's almost as though some of them are not being sized all the way down to the base? How is that possible? Die out of spec? Shell holder (Redding) incompatible with the die? Press (Redding T-7) issues?

Posted: 10/22/2014 9:51:37 AM EDT

[#7]

You need small base dies....or at least run the problem ones through small base dies then back to the x-die...

there is also a SB x-die available...

Posted: 10/22/2014 10:44:32 AM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:
You need small base dies....or at least run the problem ones through small base dies then back to the x-die...

there is also a SB x-die available...

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Yeah, that's what I was starting to wonder. RCBS is not very clear on whether or not their 308 X-Die is small base or not. I guess it's not since it doesn't explicitly say so. I believe the 223 X-Dies are explicitly listed as small base. Looks like I need to track down the 308 SB X-Die then. Thanks for the suggestion.

Posted: 10/22/2014 11:34:42 AM EDT

[#9]

Before ordering a new die, consider this.

The important criteria is whether your resized cases fit your RIFLE, not whether they fit the gage.

This is somewhat rhetorical to ask but do you know how the gage dimensions compare to your chamber? It could be the gage is tighter than your chamber.

Whenever I was unsure about rim burrs or deformation, I would turn the case over and test the fit in the case head into the gage. It should go into the gage a short distance. If it doesn't, you may have a burr or other case head problem which no die will fix. Often, you can clean up the rim with a file and recheck.

Posted: 10/22/2014 12:04:07 PM EDT

[#10]

You said you spun it all the way down. What does that mean? No more threads left on the die or all the way down to the shell holder? Do you have a regular single stage press?

Did you see if they fit in the gun?

Case gages are fine if you are loading ammo to fit every gun in the world, but just for yourself size until it fits the gun well and that is all you need. No sense in oversizing brass everytime.

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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:32:28 PM EDT

[#11]

I have the wilson case gauge and if I have a case that for some reason doesnt fit in the gauge after sizing, I put it in base first to check and see if the case rim is what is causing it to not go flush. A lot of the time, that is the issue. Its quick and easy way to find out if the case rim is the part messing up your sizing.

Posted: 10/22/2014 12:40:37 PM EDT

[#12]

Using a different brand case holder vs. your dies can cause tolerance stacking issues. I've never used RCBS-X dies so won't comment on them. I have never seen a single rifle (over 80) that I've ever owned that needed a small base die. That doesn't mean somebody with a custom "minimum dimension" chamber may not need one, I've never seen a factory chamber that did.

I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax and it helps reduce case size a little when compared to spray lubes because of it's viscosity . I think you should contact RCBS, your dies may be slightly oversized.

I have sanded the tops of shell holders to gain another .001" to .002" of resizing ability. Simply tape some emery cloth to a mirror or other flat surface and sand the face (top part of the shell holder that touch's the die) until your calipers indicate you've removed .001" of material. Reinstall the shell holder in the press and turn the die down another 1/10 to 1/8 turn and try again. Repeat as needed. This is the cheapest and quickest way to get more resizing from a die/shell holder in combination.

Lake City brass is notorious for being tough and resisting resizing. Federal brass is just the opposite. Because your having trouble with the Federal too I believe the die is suspect. The truth is RCBS-X dies asks the user to trim their cases more than usual prior to using it the first time. All brass stretches the most after it's first firing, all subsequent firing they grow very little. The idea that you've gained something by trimming before using the die the first time as opposed to afterwards makes little sense to me.

I purchased quality powered case trimmers, and use them after every resizing. Money well spent.

Posted: 10/22/2014 1:25:27 PM EDT

[#13]

Gentlemen, thanks again for all the replies -- good stuff.

To the guy that asked whether I was spinning the die down further into the press or the shell further up into the die -- it's the former. I spun the die down into the press until there were no more threads left and still got the same results.

These case gauges are quality pieces of hardware and are cut to SAAMI specs. For a case to not fit, leads me to believe something is clearly wrong -- regardless of whether it fits my rifle's chamber or not (which I have not checked, yet). But, what do I know?

Borderpatrol, I believe RCBS says for the X-Dies (and I'm summarizing) that you are supposed to do an initial resize and then trim to 0.020" below minimum case length. From that point forward, you dial in the X-Die part of the die (for the lot of cases) to prevent case growth beyond max case length.

I will try sticking some of the problematic cases into the case gauge backwards in order to determine if it's the rim of the case that's deformed and preventing proper gauge chambering, or not. There is at least one case that would not even enter the gauge far enough for the rim to be a factor -- e.g. the rim was far enough out of the gauge that there is no way it could have been the base preventing it from chambering.

I'll report back on what I find out about the rims.

Posted: 10/22/2014 2:24:48 PM EDT

[#14]

So you don't have a regular single stage then? A turret press by design is going to have more flex than a single stage and that extra bit might get you there this time through.

Are you out of threads to allow for the lock nut or out of threads totally ie size the problem cases w/o the locknut.

The only gage that matters is the chamber of your guns. There is no point in sizing more than needed for YOUR guns.

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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:38:15 PM EDT

[#15]

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Quoted:

These case gauges are quality pieces of hardware and are cut to SAAMI specs. For a case to not fit, leads me to believe something is clearly wrong -- regardless of whether it fits my rifle's chamber or not (which I have not checked, yet). But, what do I know?

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No one is implying the gage is poor quality.

Not fitting in the gage does not mean something is wrong. Typically, the gages are cut to minimum SAAMI specs such that if it fits the gage it will fit any and every SAAMI spec chamber. This is nice but NOT NECESSARY.

If I were you, the very FIRST thing I would do is check the offending brass in MY rifle. Do that and report back.

(capitalization added for emphasis not yelling)

Posted: 10/22/2014 2:52:40 PM EDT

[#16]

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Are you out of threads to allow for the lock nut or out of threads totally ie size the problem cases w/o the locknut.
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Quoted:
Are you out of threads to allow for the lock nut or out of threads totally ie size the problem cases w/o the locknut.
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I'm out of threads -- in that there is just enough left for the lock nut. Basically, the die is bottomed out in the press.

Quoted:
No one is implying the gage is poor quality.

Not fitting in the gage does not mean something is wrong. Typically, the gages are cut to minimum SAAMI specs such that if it fits the gage it will fit any and every SAAMI spec chamber. This is nice but NOT NECESSARY.

If I were you, the very FIRST thing I would do is check the offending brass in MY rifle. Do that and report back.

(capitalization added for emphasis not yelling)

Roger all that (and I wasn't suggesting that anyone else was suggesting that the gauge was poor quality -- it was just a statement that I made trying to be helpful in terms of ruling out a faulty gauge).

Regarding SAAMI spec, I'm just trying to play it conservative...being new to this and all.

I totally get that the only thing really that matters is my chamber and in perfect world, that's certainly true. But, if I'm at the range with a friend and I've sized to my chamber rather that SAAMI spec, I can't confidently hand him a hand load and say, "try this!" Not that I'd do that anyway, but you get the point.

I will try several of these cases in my chamber just to see, and report back.

Posted: 10/22/2014 3:00:06 PM EDT

[#17]

That's a neat gauge.

Posted: 10/22/2014 4:48:24 PM EDT

[#18]

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I totally get that the only thing really that matters is my chamber and in perfect world, that's certainly true. But, if I'm at the range with a friend and I've sized to my chamber rather that SAAMI spec, I can't confidently hand him a hand load and say, "try this!" Not that I'd do that anyway, but you get the point.

I will try several of these cases in my chamber just to see, and report back.

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Since you say you are new to this, let me help you develop some concepts.

Actually, it is in the practical world where what matters is the case fitting in your chamber, not the ideal world. You may find the cases fit your rifle but not the gage. That is reality. It means your chamber is "looser" than the gage (or that the gage is "tight"). This is totally okay, as long as you know about it.

Honestly, you should not be sharing reloads but everyone has probably done it. If the cases fit your rifle, there is an excellent chance they will fit your buddie's rifle, too. If you plan to frequently share ammo, consider checking your reloads in HIS rifle before producing a bunch of ammo.

P.S. - We don't have pics of your die/press set up but I have read of people moving the lock ring to the bottom of the die (beneath the tool head, rather than on top).

Honestly, because you are new to this, it seems something may be wrong with your set up. I don't know what RCBS dies I have but I will go check to see. I do have a T-7 to check them with.

Posted: 10/22/2014 7:39:44 PM EDT

[#19]

If some are hanging up at the rim like that and others are not, without rhyme or reason, it is probably just the rim that is hanging up.

Posted: 10/22/2014 9:53:50 PM EDT

[#20]

OP, the instructions on how to post pics are up in FAQ's (the first thing you should have read before posting) at the top of the page.

Posted: 10/23/2014 12:57:54 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

Not fitting in the gage does not mean something is wrong. Typically, the gages are cut to minimum SAAMI specs such that if it fits the gage it will fit any and every SAAMI spec chamber.

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As the maker of the gauge in question, I will confirm this. It is reamed to near SAAMI min chamber spec so that it functions as a chamber checking tool. This is larger than SAAMI max spec on the brass though.

The suggestion to drop the brass in backwards is a good idea. It will show if you have a burr on the head that is the problem.

Are the brass just dropping in to that point, or are you pressing them in? If they are just dropping in, can you press them the rest of the way with your thumb?

Posted: 10/23/2014 1:21:41 AM EDT

[#22]

Scratch all that

I'm lost on no threads left in the die, so when you pull the press handle you are 3/4 from full pull? Maybe tap a non fitting case with a scrap of wood, will it go?

Posted: 10/23/2014 7:11:52 AM EDT

[#23]

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The suggestion to drop the brass in backwards is a good idea. It will show if you have a burr on the head that is the problem.

Are the brass just dropping in to that point, or are you pressing them in? If they are just dropping in, can you press them the rest of the way with your thumb?

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I tired dropping all of the problematic cases in backwards last night and they all went in about as far as one might expect. Thus, the head/rim of those cases does not appear to be the issue.

And yes, the brass drops freely (without pressing on them) to around that point for many of the cases in question -- some go a bit further, some much less. For the ones that are "close", if I press on them I can get them the rest of the way in. The others that aren't as close, most definitely will not go the rest of the way in. Those in particular appear to have a barely visible line around the case near the base, which to me looks like where the sizing stopped -- and from there downward is the issue.

P.S. I really love the case gauges!

Posted: 10/23/2014 7:16:00 AM EDT

[#24]

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Quoted:
Scratch all that

I'm lost on no threads left in the die, so when you pull the press handle you are 3/4 from full pull? Maybe tap a non fitting case with a scrap of wood, will it go?

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With the die spun fully down I can get about 2/3 - 3/4 of a full pull before the shell holder hits the bottom of the die. Regardless of die position, the case is always going 100% into the die -- i.e. the shell holder hits the bottom of the die and the ram can not move upward any further.

Posted: 10/23/2014 7:26:14 AM EDT

[#25]

What is the diameter of the base of the case(not the rim)?

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Posted: 10/23/2014 8:10:32 AM EDT

[#26]

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What is the diameter of the base of the case(not the rim)?

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They are all between 0.467" - 0.470".

Also, I did not have a chance to pull the rifle out and check them in the chamber last night. I will try to get to that tonight.

Posted: 10/23/2014 8:36:44 AM EDT

[#27]

I believe that is actually undersized by a couple thou. I think .471 is saami spec.. I would say the base is not the problem... I suppose it could be swollen farther up but it should size to the web.

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Posted: 10/23/2014 8:53:15 AM EDT

[#28]

If you open your caliper to 0.375" set the screw so it don't move you can hook one edge on the back of the rim and use the other edge to scribe a gage point by rotating the case.

At this point the spec measurement would be .468" or less. I think that would rule out the base.

......if my math is correct, maybe check it against your factory rounds. While your at it compare measurement right behind the radius at the shoulder too.
You have some that fit see what dims are bigger on the cases that don't fit.

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Posted: 10/23/2014 10:07:39 AM EDT

[#29]

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And yes, the brass drops freely (without pressing on them) to around that point for many of the cases in question -- some go a bit further, some much less. For the ones that are "close", if I press on them I can get them the rest of the way in. The others that aren't as close, most definitely will not go the rest of the way in. Those in particular appear to have a barely visible line around the case near the base, which to me looks like where the sizing stopped -- and from there downward is the issue.

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Quoted:
And yes, the brass drops freely (without pressing on them) to around that point for many of the cases in question -- some go a bit further, some much less. For the ones that are "close", if I press on them I can get them the rest of the way in. The others that aren't as close, most definitely will not go the rest of the way in. Those in particular appear to have a barely visible line around the case near the base, which to me looks like where the sizing stopped -- and from there downward is the issue.

Interesting that there is a visible line there.

On the ones that drop in all the way, are they flush with the middle step(SAAMI chamber minimum) or higher/lower? It sounds like that is the most you can size the cases with that particular die/shell holder combo. So if it is still sitting a little high, it might be a matter of getting a shell holder that is a little shorter to work with the die, or modifying yours slightly.

Quoted:
P.S. I really love the case gauges!

Glad you like them

Posted: 10/23/2014 12:34:23 PM EDT

[#30]

You are screwing the die down too far which will not allow the press to "cam over". You stated you screwed the die so far down that it didn't have any threads left. This will not do. Since you are using Dillon's 550 I think you don't have your shell plate tightened enough. Snug it down some more so there is a little resistance when moving it from station to station. Make sure the allen head screw in the press ram is tightened too or it will get loose on you.

Your press handle must be at the lowest possible downward position as the brass is being resized. There is some slop in the mechanism on all presses that can only be removed as the leverage of the press handle reaches the bottom most position in it's stroke. You adjust your dies accordingly. Only using 3/4 of the stroking capacity makes it impossible for the press to cam over. Adjust your dies so that they press firmly against the shell plate when the handle is at the bottom most position of it's stroke.

Take measurements of the resized brass and adjust the die up or down until you get the sizing you need.

Posted: 10/23/2014 12:54:40 PM EDT

[#31]

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You are screwing the die down too far which will not allow the press to "cam over". You stated you screwed the die so far down that it didn't have any threads left. This will not do. Since you are using Dillon's 550...

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I'm using a Redding T-7 and it does not cam over -- that's just the way it was designed. I simply screwed the die all the way down as a test and to confirm to others in this thread that the die was indeed screwed in "far enough" when sizing the original pieces of brass. It is not how the original pieces of brass were sized, though -- they were sized with the die set at a more appropriate height.

Posted: 10/23/2014 1:43:02 PM EDT

[#32]

Not sure I'm following all of this. I use standard RCBS dies all the time for my M14S .308 reloads. I lower the RCBS press handle all the way down (ram up), screw in the die til it makes contact with the RCBS shell holder then screw it down an additional 1/2 turn to assure the SH makes contact with the die when the press linkage goes over center while under load. All cases are well lubed with Hornady One-Shot. Not much effort is required for complete resizing. When dropping a sized case into a Wilson Cartridge gauge all is good. I use LC and IMI brass exclusively.

From your pics, it is clear that the bodies of your cases are just not getting pushed into your sizing die far enough to properly complete the sizing operation. Your comments about running out of threads on the die just does not make sense to me. I thought all the equipment manufacturers were standardized enough to make dies and shell holders fit all brands of presses. Unless there is something really strange about the design of your press, you should be able to raise the ram all the way up (linkage fully over center) and screw the die into contact with the SH and have plenty of threads exposed for the lock ring. I looked at some photos and videos of the T-7 press and it appears to have conventional likage that should go over-center at the top of the stroke.

Can you post pics of you press setup?

Posted: 10/23/2014 5:45:03 PM EDT

[#33]

Had same problem with DPMS LR 308, loads that were made for my other 308 rifles would not fully chamber in the LR308 so back to the loading bench
and kept on turning the Hornady die further in until I had to cam over the die setting into the dillon 550 (not a probelm !!!)
I could not believe a semi auto would have such a tight chamber !!!
Then when I took the rifle to the range and I looked into the spooting scope I cound not believe the 1/2 inch group type accuracy.
This was one of first production lines of the dpms LR 308 and is noted for tight chambers and excellent accuracy.
Later
John

Posted: 10/23/2014 6:36:20 PM EDT

[#34]

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Quoted:
The others that aren't as close, most definitely will not go the rest of the way in. Those in particular appear to have a barely visible line around the case near the base, which to me looks like where the sizing stopped -- and from there downward is the issue.

P.S. I really love the case gauges!

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OP has not yet reported on whether the brass fits his chamber. The gage is just a gage and is not necessarily a good substitute for your rifle's chamber.

You have not posted pics of this line. In my experience, the die does not size to the base of the case. The die really cannot size this area and usually does not need to be sized. The case head is solid brass and the case walls near the bottom of the case (the web) are extremely thick. This unsized area is usually smaller in diameter than the side walls and usually fits into the tapered chamber with no problem.

How far back have you pushed the shoulder given your current sizing die set up?

Posted: 10/23/2014 6:58:23 PM EDT

[#35]

I just checked my T-7's set up and operation.

I used my Dillon 30-06 die because it was already installed.

The die is adjusted such that it touches the shell holder before the arm reaches the bottom of the stroke. The Dillon die has less than one full thread showing out of the bottom of the tool head.

The arm is able to go fully downwards. There is a distinct "camming over" near the bottom of the stroke during resizing, even though my die only pushes the shoulder back a few thousandths.

Please post a picture of your set up. I suspect your set up needs to be tweaked a bit.

Posted: 10/23/2014 7:01:37 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:

OP has not yet reported on whether the brass fits his chamber. The gage is just a gage and is not necessarily a good substitute for your rifle's chamber.

You have not posted pics of this line. In my experience, the die does not size to the base of the case. The die really cannot size this area and usually does not need to be sized. The case head is solid brass and the case walls near the bottom of the case (the web) are extremely thick. This unsized area is usually smaller in diameter than the side walls and usually fits into the tapered chamber with no problem.

How far back have you pushed the shoulder given your current sizing die set up?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
The others that aren't as close, most definitely will not go the rest of the way in. Those in particular appear to have a barely visible line around the case near the base, which to me looks like where the sizing stopped -- and from there downward is the issue.

P.S. I really love the case gauges!

OP has not yet reported on whether the brass fits his chamber. The gage is just a gage and is not necessarily a good substitute for your rifle's chamber.

You have not posted pics of this line. In my experience, the die does not size to the base of the case. The die really cannot size this area and usually does not need to be sized. The case head is solid brass and the case walls near the bottom of the case (the web) are extremely thick. This unsized area is usually smaller in diameter than the side walls and usually fits into the tapered chamber with no problem.

How far back have you pushed the shoulder given your current sizing die set up?

I think he is just trying to justify his gage. My dies leave about 1/8" of the case ahead of the extractor groove angle untouched and they fit my chamber and the gage I have that I used one time and now it collects dust. People get the false sense they are making quality ammo fitting to gages when fitting to the guns they use is far superior. Gages are for when one is making ammo to fit every gun.

Posted: 10/23/2014 7:51:34 PM EDT

[#37]

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I think he is just trying to justify his gage. My dies leave about 1/8" of the case ahead of the extractor groove angle untouched and they fit my chamber and the gage I have that I used one time and now it collects dust. People get the false sense they are making quality ammo fitting to gages when fitting to the guns they use is far superior. Gages are for when one is making ammo to fit every gun.

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I'm not trying to justify anything. Like I said, I'm new to this. As such, I'm trying to be cautious and when a gauge cut to near minimum acceptable SAAMI specs does not accommodate a "sized" case, I stop and seek help.

Trollslayer, some of the Redding presses (including the T-7) do not cam over like a RCBS Rock Chucker (for example) cams over where the ram actually goes all the way up and then back down a little. The T-7 has linkage stops on each side that stop the handle/linkage from truly camming over.

I just fed a number of the cases into my rifle's chamber and they all appeared to chamber fine. However, I'm not 100% sure of what exactly I am looking for there. What is a good indicator of a case that chambers correctly versus incorrectly?

That being said, regardless of whether these are chambering in my rifle, shouldn't the die in question size brass to at least minimum SAAMI spec? People keep suggesting that I'm doing something wrong, but I've answered all questions about spinning the die down further, etc. When the shell plate is contacting the bottom of the die and the ram can no longer move upward because of said contact, what more can be done? I ask, because that is the point that we are now at.

Here are a few more pics for clarification:

Redding T-7 linkage stops that prevent cam over:

Redding T-7 linkage fully extended and contacting the stops:

Redding T-7 ram position (with die spun up and out of the way) with linkage fully extended:

RCBS 308 Full Length Sizing X-Die setup for first time sizing (not using the X-Die feature):

The worst offender of the cases that do not fit in the case gauge:

Lever/linkage down, ram up, shell holder contacting the die, and case 100% in the die:

Case still does not fit the case gauge:

Case sitting in the case gauge backwards to confirm it's not a malformed head catching on the gauge when inserted properly:

Posted: 10/23/2014 8:08:10 PM EDT

[#38]

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Lever/linkage down, ram up, shell holder contacting the die, and case 100% in the die:

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/BrianL76/308%20Size%20Issues%20Part%202/IMG_0136_zps1ed8899a.jpg

Okay, start here, where with the shell holder installed, ram fully raised to the stops, no case inserted, screw down the die until it fully contacts the shell plate.

Then lower the ram and turn the die down another 1/2 of a turn. Lock it down, and try sizing a case. You may experience a bit of "camming-over" as you first hit the die but not the stops, and the resistance takes out all the "slop" in the press.

If the sized case fails to gauge, then tun the die down again a quarter turn, lock it down, and try again. Size a case and gauge it.

Continue this, slowly turning the die down small amounts( 1/4 or 1/6 of a turn at a time) until the case will pass the gage.

It sounds like last time it was recommended to screw the die in deeper, you just went and cranked it down way too far, so much that the ram couldn't fully raise. That's not what was meant, and now what will help. As you make small fractions of a turn deeper into the press, you should still be able to raise the ram fully to the stops. As you do this, the ram will meet the die and resist moving fully up, but if you give it a bit more effort, it should "cam-over" and go all the way to the stops. When this happens, all of the tolerance in the system (gaps between ram and shell holder, shell holder and die, die threads and press threads) gets forced out and you're able to get the case just a little bit deeper into the die.

Posted: 10/23/2014 8:09:12 PM EDT

[#39]

I had the same problem years ago when I 1st got into reloading. It was with a lyman case gauge. I asked the question here in a couple members had told me to order a dillon case gauge. Once I did that, the problem went away.

All my sized cases dropped right into the Dillon gauge.

If I remember correctly the reason was because of the different specs between the 2 case gauges. The Dillon case gauge having more of a 5.56 like chamber size.

I also purchased a Larry Willis digital headspace gauge. This thing is the cat's ass and has saved me many many times.
It has also helped me to be able to resize my cases back down only .003-004 and not oversize them.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

Posted: 10/23/2014 8:12:53 PM EDT

[#40]

Excellent pics, thank you.

Indeed, the T-7 has stops but my 30-06 die contacts the shell plate before the linkage is stopped by the pins. The handle goes from super-easy operation to an abrupt stop. Then, with a little more pressure, you will see the ram, shell holder, tool head and arm move just a smidge more. This final movement is what people refer to as "camming over".

It probably isn't truly going over-center but it forces everything (linkage bearing surfaces and pins, etc) into a zero tolerance alignment. It definitely takes all the slop out of the hinges and bearing surface. It also forces the case into the die just a tiny bit more than it would otherwise go. This last little bit, the "camming over", is what sizes the case to the final desired dimension.

Do you have a way to measure how far back you are pushing the shoulder during sizing? If so, how far back are they going?

You asked about what constitutes a good fit between the brass and a rifle. It is difficult to describe. Some say remove the extractor and ejector from the bolt and close the bolt on a case. It should close with no impediment. I always leave those items installed when I check fit my brass and just interpret what I feel knowing there is pressure on the brass from those spring-loaded items.

What is not as difficult to describe is a bad fit. If you have to use substantial force on the bolt handle to close the bolt on a case (using more than your index finger), it is probably not adequately sized. If you have to use the heel of your hand or close your fist around the bolt handle, it is not properly sized. You can get feel for proper fit by chambering a factory cartridge or a new, unfired piece of brass.

Posted: 10/23/2014 8:23:16 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Okay, start here, where with the shell holder installed, ram fully raised to the stops, no case inserted, screw down the die until it fully contacts the shell plate.

Then lower the ram and turn the die down another 1/2 of a turn. Lock it down, and try sizing a case. You may experience a bit of "camming-over" as you first hit the die but not the stops, and the resistance takes out all the "slop" in the press.

If the sized case fails to gauge, then tun the die down again a quarter turn, lock it down, and try again. Size a case and gauge it.

Continue this, slowly turning the die down small amounts( 1/4 or 1/6 of a turn at a time) until the case will pass the gage.

It sounds like last time it was recommended to screw the die in deeper, you just went and cranked it down way too far, so much that the ram couldn't fully raise. That's not what was meant, and now what will help.

View Quote

No, to be clear I did exactly as you described -- I spun the die down in increments and sized each time. I did this until the die was spun all they way into the press and there were no more threads left before causing the lock nut to come off the top of the threads.

Posted: 10/23/2014 8:27:00 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
Do you have a way to measure how far back you are pushing the shoulder during sizing? If so, how far back are they going?

You asked about what constitutes a good fit between the brass and a rifle. It is difficult to describe. Some say remove the extractor and ejector from the bolt and close the bolt on a case. It should close with no impediment. I always leave those items installed when I check fit my brass and just interpret what I feel knowing there is pressure on the brass from those spring-loaded items.

What is not as difficult to describe is a bad fit. If you have to use substantial force on the bolt handle to close the bolt on a case (using more than your index finger), it is probably not adequately sized. If you have to use the heel of your hand or close your fist around the bolt handle, it is not properly sized. You can get feel for proper fit by chambering a factory cartridge or a new, unfired piece of brass.

View Quote

I don't think I have a way to measure shoulder push back. At the moment, I only have a set of RCBS dial calipers.

Thanks for the tips on what to look for regarding a good fit between the brass and the rifle.

Posted: 10/23/2014 9:45:50 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
I had the same problem years ago when I 1st got into reloading. It was with a lyman case gauge. I asked the question here in a couple members had told me to order a dillon case gauge. Once I did that, the problem went away.

All my sized cases dropped right into the Dillon gauge.

If I remember correctly the reason was because of the different specs between the 2 case gauges. The Dillon case gauge having more of a 5.56 like chamber size.

View Quote

There are definitely different types of case gauges out there. Some are made with a chamber reamer and tight, so that brass sized to fit should chamber in anything. Others are cut with larger diameters, for the purpose of allowing fired brass to drop in. This allows you to measure the fired case to get your headspace measurement. The downside is brass can fit the gauge, but not your chamber because of a problem with the diameter. Both designs have their uses, the important thing is to know which one you have.

Posted: 10/23/2014 10:59:05 PM EDT

[#44]

This thread is the perfect example of how a case gage is deficient in providing the information a reloader wants and needs. This is why the Stoney Point gage became so popular (now owned by Hornady).

OP, your case gage is one of the best I've seen but you should buy one of the Hornady gage sets. No offence meant. You just seem like a careful reloader who would really benefit from such a tool.

Posted: 10/23/2014 11:08:58 PM EDT

[#45]

While I've learned more about measuring cases since buying my Dillon 308, 223, 30-06, 9mm and 45 ACP case gages... I will not go so far as to call them useless or paper weights. If a case fits them, it'll feed and fire, unless you have some custom chamber and should know enough to do things differently.
ETA my Dillon 45 ACP gage....
A whole bunch of my reloads don't fit in that....because the rims get bent to Utah and just wont. But they pass the "plunk test".
9mm seems like the rims aren't as "malleable".
Luckily, pistol ammo headspaces off of the rim.

Posted: 10/23/2014 11:45:37 PM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
... I will not go so far as to call them useless or paper weights.

View Quote

No, neither would I. It's just that that don't give you what you need or don't give it to you as easily as the Hornady gage. I have several, even one for 45ACP.

Heck, neither is necessary. You can and should use your rifle's chamber to validate the gage readings. In this case, it seems the rifle accepts cases that don't fit in the gage.

Posted: 10/24/2014 12:02:55 AM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:

No, neither would I. It's just that that don't give you what you need or don't give it to you as easily as the Hornady gage. I have several, even one for 45ACP.

Heck, neither is necessary. You can and should use your rifle's chamber to validate the gage readings. In this case, it seems the rifle accepts cases that don't fit in the gage.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
... I will not go so far as to call them useless or paper weights.

No, neither would I. It's just that that don't give you what you need or don't give it to you as easily as the Hornady gage. I have several, even one for 45ACP.

Heck, neither is necessary. You can and should use your rifle's chamber to validate the gage readings. In this case, it seems the rifle accepts cases that don't fit in the gage.

True, I don't recall the action type the OP is sizing these for? Bolt action is the easiest of course as far as not needing any measuring tools.

Posted: 10/24/2014 7:06:56 AM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
True, I don't recall the action type the OP is sizing these for? Bolt action is the easiest of course as far as not needing any measuring tools.

View Quote

Semi-auto AR.

Posted: 10/24/2014 8:40:22 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

Semi-auto AR.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
True, I don't recall the action type the OP is sizing these for? Bolt action is the easiest of course as far as not needing any measuring tools.

Semi-auto AR.

For some reason I thought it was for a bolt action. Forget everything I said about closing the bolt unless your bolt carrier has a handle on it (mine does).

In an AR, you can work with just the upper receiver - you can push on the rear of the bolt carrier. Again, use a factory round as a benchmark for how much force is needed. Then, using one finger, you should be able to chamber a round by pushing on the back of the carrier.

Posted: 10/24/2014 10:26:11 PM EDT

[#50]

The picture you posted of your press clamped to the bench looks like the handle is hitting the base on the full down stroke. This would cause your press not to work properly.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 308 case sizing issues (Page 1 of 2)

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