I was cloning mk316 mod 0 ammo but it just takes for ever to throw that 41.75 grains of imr 4064.... I know if I go any other rout other then throwing by hand ill loose accuracy as far as powder charge goes, I was considering do this on the lee load master with double disk kit, throwing some form of "match" load, if you notice in the "ultimate reloader" series on you tube they do a 308 load on the progressive, I think the hornady press.


1. thoughts on a 308 load on the progressive

2. is their a quicker way to throw the charge I am looking for ?

1.  I do and would recommend that you reload precision/match ammo on a single stage.

Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.  I have a Rock Chucker and a Hornady LNL AP, love them both and I know for a fact that the LNL AP can make some great, consistent "match" ammo but if you are measuring to hundreths of a grain... I'd recommend you go single stage.

2.  Hornady makes a big trickler if you don't have a powder measure. I throw from my powder measure then trickle to top off.  Balance beam scale, not electronic.

I have a lee breech lock classic cast press,  and a gem pro scale, with forster ultra mic dies, but it takes me close to an hr to load 10-15 rounds, and for 25 dollars a box I can get federal 7.62x51 match 175 smk loaded ammo, so it almost does not seem worth siting their all day to load the ammo, how ever I have about 400 smk's and a shit tone of primers powder and LC brass,  was hoping to load it a little more quicker then I am doing now

Have you ever tried loading on your progressive? IMR4064 sucks for powder measures, but it may throw more consistent charges than you think. I get terrible throws, but YMMV.

I'd recommend Alliant 2000mr for loading heavy .308 bullets on a progressive. It meters like H335 and throws just about dead on out of my XL650. I'm getting <15fps SD using it with 77gr 5.56 loads with tula KVB556M primers done on the same XL650.

for me match ammo = single stage press.


I use my powder measure (the cheap $25 lee one) to throw a charge just under what I want. I lay the pan in my scale and trickle until it is exactly what I want.

I dont get in a hurry when making my match .308 loads, but I can still do 50 in under an hour including taking short breaks and ive still spent enough time on each round to make sure it is exact.

the rewards are great

what I am currently doing is throwing with the lee scoopers, as close as I can, my hornady lnl trickler was not accurate enough to throw the rest of the charge, it would always drop a few kernels more then what I needed so I would have to use tweezers to throw two the kernel, that's how exact this load has to be to match the mk316 mod-0 round.

I think in the long run I will be better off selling every thing I use to load 308 and just buying the ammo to be honest

I dont see how you are having so much trouble.

I do the same thing with a hornady trickle and have no problems with varget or 4064. buy the $25 powder measure and maybe a better trickle?

my $15 trickle will put out one granule at a time if i want, i just have to pay attention.

It isn't possible to throw IMR-4064 with any consistency. Set your powder measure to throw close to 41.5 and trickle charge until you hit your goal. I've loaded thousands of charges this way. It takes time, but you know the finished product is on the money.

BTW - Just because someone suggests a specific load to duplicate a standard target round, that doesn't mean that load is optimal in your rifle. Experiment a little under and over to see if your rifle has a preference. Good Luck.

There are powders that meter well. Use one of them.

Or, drop short but close. Then trickle.

the factory federal 7.62x51 match (  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=438072209  ) shoots fantastic in my gun, after doing some reading and sleuthing  the charge is 41.75 grains of 4064  so I want to stick to this as religiously as possible

my gempro scale will weigh 1 kernel of 4064, I have replicated this round in every way but two, 1 being the brass and 2 being the primer,  I measured the brass and on a 30 pc average have set all my lake city brass shoulders to match the factory brass, also the oal of the brass from the ogive, again 30 pc average I can shoot factory and chance to my load and see no difference in accuracy at 100, I have not had time to shoot at any real distance mainly cause I am to burned out to load any more, its very time consuming

not sure but it seems like it always wants to throw 3 kernels or 2 or something odd, wont throw just one, so I sold it

This is what I do. I use a dipper to get close, then finish with an auto trickler.

Here you go takes me  a little over 20 minutes to do 100rnds not including hand prime.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/431127_Hornady_L_N_L_AP_for_Precision_Rifle_loads_vs__Single_Stage.html

Can .308 loads from a progressive be competative, yes. that has been proven too many times to be debated again. If you don't define "match" then don't expect to compare to F-Class  with progressive ammo.

You can load short line ammo on a progressive all day long and win in Service Rifle, but not in F-Class.

Is there a quicker way...... yes but it costs much more than you proably want to talk about, unless we are talking about short line distances (i.e., <300 yards).

You have to state your goals in terms of CEP and range, or target size and distance to have an even discussion.

Single stage for match ammo

us a Lee powder perfect

Have you tried not worrying over a couple tenths of a grain either way variation? Some loads are good enough it doesn't matter. IIIRC people have pulled down FGMM and found the charge weights very inconsistent.

I don't use 4064, I developed loads with Varget, RL15, and Tac for my .308 I used several because you just never know what will be available, Varget and RL15 don't meter great, but can easily be dropped .1-.3 low usually closer from my Uniflow powder measure and trickled up, which I do because I am obsessed with getting each charge as near identical as practical, I have not checked them to see if being less precise works as well. Tac I'm not meticulous about, I can drop it consistently within .1gr and observed no benefit to being more consistent, it doesn't perform as well as the other two powders but it does pretty good.

Point being, there are lots of powder options, some can be metered well enough to drop straight into the case and only confirm every so many rounds. A large part of the enjoyment of handloading for many people is load development, and as an added bonus you may find a load that shoots even better.

My thoughts on using a progressive - DO IT!


With no special precautions other than good, consistent technique, my Dillon 550B throws IMR4064 charges with a standard deviation on weight of 0.14 gr.  On my 550B, I get several hundreds round per hour (~200 to 300).  If I am feeling particularly anal, I can use the press as a single stage.

When I was worried I was losing accuracy because of this, I ran a test between carefully prepared, hand weighed charges and progressively reloaded charges.  Testing was done at 100 yards with accuracy (group size) and chronograph data collected.

There was no difference in accuracy, muzzle velocity or standard deviation on muzzle velocity.  The data was actually slightly better for the progressive loads but the difference was not statistically significant.  After reviewing the group sizes and SD's, I stopped worrying.  

Winchester case
Federal 210M primer
Sierra 155, 168, 175 and 190 gr MatchKings
42.0 IMR4064 (you are using only 41.5 gr)
Remington 40-X

The only remaining caution I have is that if you stretch the range out to 800 to 1,000 yards, you may want to revisit your entire loading and testing regimen.  

If you are really, really worried about variable charge weights when throwing charges, you can switch to a ball powder.  TAC comes to mind.  My 550B throws TAC with an SD of 0.01 gr when throwing 23.5 gr (223 cases, my scale measures to 0.02gr).  I've never used TAC in 308 but it is supposed to be very good and I know it will meter very well.  

Can you tell us your shooting range (max likely distance), your inherent accuracy (rifle + you), your purpose/objective (hunting, match shooting, banging steel,...).

I have frequently read that the Lee Perfect Powder Measure is very good for extruded powders (large granules).  They are very inexpensive and are probably worth a try if you decide to stay with a single stage and an extruded powder.  

Supposedly, they do not work for ball powder.  They are too loose (which is what makes them work with extruded powder) but leak ball powder.

IMR-4064 while being very accurate and predictable when loaded in .308 requires hand weighed charges. Try VihtaVuori N140 or N150, they are very good for this application and meter better than Varget or RE-15 which are also excellent in .308.

I use a really expensive benchrest (Harrell"s) precision powder measure. It costs more than what most people are willing to spend. It gives excellent results on target. I have drop charged 24.5 grains of Varget when shooting 68 grain SMK's and routinely shoot clean scores at 300 yards if I don't make a mistake. The ammo performs at a very high level despite being drop charged. Lee's disc style powder measure is probably the hardest to get consistent results from period.

If you can afford to consider Redding's BR-30 or BR-3 powder measure with a drop tube. The BR-30 will not drop more than 50 grains of powder at it's wide open setting, limiting it to M1 Garand and smaller case capacities. It's designed to work best throwing 30 grains +/- 5 grains, thus the name. A drop tube helps with bulky powders like IMR-4064 and Varget. A powder trickler is still required if you want dead on powder charges.

While trying to duplicate mk316 mod 0 seems like a noble pursuit you will probably discover loads that shoot better in your individual rifle by incremental testing of different powder charges. .3 grain is small enough in .308, .5 grain will work. .5 grain is around 30 fps change in .308 with 168's. The government contracts ammo specs based on what load shoots the best in the most rifles. It's not custom tuned for any rifle in particular.

I don't understand your point, borderpatrol.

First you say hand weighed charges are "required" if using 4064.  I'd say they are not required.  

Then you go on to say you threw charges of Varget and shot cleans.  I know Varget is also an extruded powder that many have trouble with when throwing charges but how is Varget relevant to 4064?

I throw Varget and IMR 4064 with the same consistency (SD = 0.1 gr) and they both shoot well.


I agree that replicating someone's load is not necessarily optimal for the OP's rifle.   Still, I've duplicated loads so I can switch between factory and reloads with no change in ballistics (no loss of zeroes).

Being capable of that, you are beyond the scope of this discussion.
What type of powder measuring device do you use?

If your absolutely set on that powder and charge I would load up 10-15 loads of .3 under to .3 over in .1 grain increments and shoot them at 7 separate targets round robin style and see what differences there are.

IMR-4064 is so course I get up to +/- .4 grain difference either direction when simply thrown. This probably does not make a difference inside 200 yards. It will make a difference at 600. I go through the trouble of weighing IMR-4064 powder charges in .308 match loads so I gain the confidence to use all of my ammo at any range. These are seated at 2.800" regardless of what range I intend to shoot them at.

Varget isn't as course as IMR-4064 and my .223 loads don't suffer from being drop charged out to 300 yards. I hand weigh Varget for 600 yard loads with 80 grain bullets. The 80 grain loads must be hand loaded into the chamber because they're too long to fit or feed from a magazine.  The point I'm trying to make is that some loads naturally shoot so well that powder variations have little effect at short range. Velocity variations have greater effects on targets the further down range you get.

Ah, gotcha.

When I did my test, I found there was no difference in velocity variation between the thrown and hand weighed charges.  I have an explanation for this seemingly counter-intuitive result but won't bore you with it.  

I do think that at 600 yards and especially beyond, these velocity variations become important but hand weighing powder charges is just a small piece of the entire answer.  

I don't think one can mention long range shooting without mentioning how important wind reading is (so I just did).

I use the Lee PPM for IMR 3031 with good results.  I also discovered Win 748 leaks out of ever crevice on the PPM.

I just fired 40 rounds of 175smk .308s loaded with my Hornady L-N-L AP (auto-progressive press) over my MagnetoSpeed  the standard deviation was 10.7fps and extreme spread was 36fps over the 40rnds total. Those numbers are plenty good for 1000 yards and better than any factory match ammo I would bet.... over 40 rounds




and for those that want to try to compare 10 shot group SDs and ESs to my 40 shot results, here are the 4 - 10 shot groups.  

What powder did you use?

W748

Popnfresh, what length barrel, powder and brass?
I'm getting around 2630 with 175 Nosler CC in a (semi auto) 24" Rainier UM, 40.0 XBR and LC cases.

Factory 20" 700sps tac,45gr  W748, 210m, LC11 11xfired, 175smk. I was always getting around 2620fps with this load then all of a sudden it dropped by 40fps with the change of a new 8lb jug of powder of the same lot??? oh well the accuracy stayed. May be because of a fresh anneal too, I am not sure yet.


THose posted in the above thread are all from today.

These below are all from different trips but with the old jug of powder and not annealed for a for 3 or 4 firings same temps for all (around 90) so that isn't it. One of them is from a fresh copper removal cleaning(it's the 2621fps one, made no difference).

Makes a guy wonder about his chronograph don't it?

No, look at the chamber pressures compared the the ones in my edited post above. The pressure is from a different devise.

Chronograph accuracy and calibration are always in question.  The lack of a calibration standard is a significant failing of consumer chronographs.

It would be terrific if he had similar types of data for hand weighed charges for comparison.  Still, I think the data he presents is reasonable (excellent results), don't you?

Sure but I don't think hand weighed vs thrown would make much difference, if your in that range it should/will be close.

The PSI average for the faster groups is 59,015 the slower groups are 56,426, either due to less neck tension from the anneal or a different burn ratefrom the new keg of powder although identical lot #s.

I have not hand weighed in a while, most of my SDs averaged 10-14fps when I did, looking back through my log book. This is why I quit weighing/trickling every round I found with my measure I could throw just as good, it almost seems better running case activated in the progressive than by me throwing the handle.


HERE I did a comparison of single vs. AP but neither were hand weighed.

Same primer batch too?

This is exactly what I saw, too - thrown charges actually measured better than individually weighed charges (but not by much).

I think this is what the OP really wanted to know with his original question - do progressives make good 308 ammo?  The answer is, without a doubt, YES!

Yes, I bought a 5k case of 210M. All 5k are the same lot#. I am going to Wolf primers next so I will compare pressures with the Fed210M.

210M is a hot primer, the Russians not so much. Winchester standard large rifle primers and Federal 210M primers are virtually identical when it comes to velocity and pressure produced when shooting identical loads. These are the hottest standard large rifle primers on the market.

All other primers can be safely substituted when loads were worked up with Fed 210M or Winchester primers. CCI-200, CCI-250 (magnum) and Remington 9.5's are substantially milder but you should not increase powder charges to make up the difference. These other brands give 4k to 6k lower pressures when tested with the same powder charges. Russian primers are mild across the board and should give excellent accuracy at long range.

For years Mid Thompkins used Remington 9.5 primers at 1000 yards in bolt guns, Winchester brass, 42.0+/- grains of IMR-4064, and 190 grains Sierra Match Kings driven at 2550 fps. The powder charges were adjusted when changing powder and primer lots to achieve the target velocity. Mild primers have proven themselves to be winners when shots are fired over longer ranges.

The best I was ever able to get WW-748 to shoot in .308 (M1-A) was a 197/12x at 600 yards. Not good enough. I used 43.0 grains of WW-748 with 168 grain Sierra Match Kings in Lake City brass. Winchester primers were used and this is a maximum load per NRA data and closely tallies with Hornady's maximum M1-A load using their 168's in gas guns. Velocity was 2500 fps. Standard deviations are always lower when using ball powders. Another ball powder load I tried using the same components was 40.5 grains of AA-2460. It had a SD of 6. It worked fine at 200/300, but was a disappointment at 600. Ball powder accuracy is rarely as good or reliable as when using extruded single base powders. That is an almost universal experience with long range competitors.

Extruded powders rule the roost past 600 yards despite not having the low SD and ES numbers which are common to ball powder loads.

OP:

In the late 1960's when I worked with the now-defunct Hercules Inc, we measured chamber pressures with the piston-copper crusher method and were just
changing over to piezoelectric measurements.
What method are you using to measure chamber pressures?

A strain gage attached to the bbl over the chamber.

PressureTrace II