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Posted: 7/27/2014 2:37:51 PM EDT
I'm looking to come up with a load using a 180 gr. WFN hard cast bullet.  The primary use will be hunting and general woods carry.  I'm hoping that I can get this close to the 180 grain Buffalo Bore load.  1375 fps out of a 4" barrel seems pretty ambitious, but I'd like to try to get at least 1200 fps.  I will be using a 4" GP100.

I've narrowed it down to two bullet choices:

Cast Performance 180 LWFNGC

Missouri Bullet 180 WFN

I'm open to other bullet suggestions if you have any.

I have lots of H110 on hand so I'd like to stick with that.

So, my questions are:

Is a gas check necessary for this type of load?  The Cast Performance bullets cost almost three times as much as the Missouri bullets.  

Min and max charge data seems to be difficult to find for this type of bullet in .357 mag.  I did find a post from several years ago on another forum for the 180 Cast Performance bullets
The Lyman manual load data for H110 and IMR-4227 is as follows:
OAL = 1.590"
H110 - 12.7gr 1112 fps 29,900 CUP, 14.0gr 1266 fps 42,000 CUP

This data is from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4, and is somewhat consistent with what is given for 180 grain Nosler partitions directly from Hodgdon (min, 13 gr., max, 13.5 gr., COAL 1.575).  Does anyone have any other suggestions on where to look for starting data?  It seems like everything I find about 180 grain bullets is for jacketed bullets.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Link Posted: 7/27/2014 2:57:59 PM EDT
[#1]
First things first
Do you have a chronograph, if not your wasting time.  You will be guessing, and that does not cut it.

Next, commercial reloader usually have access to non-canister grades of powder.
You obvious choice IMR 4227 is a bit more forgiving then H110/W296.
The literature says that you do not reduce the max loads more that three percent. These powders will not perform well with less near full charge.

You really would want a Gas Check to help seal the bore better.....have you slugged your bore?
Some vendors will custom size their offerings for people.  

Link Posted: 7/27/2014 3:23:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Thank you for the suggestions.  I do have a chronograph.  I have not slugged my bore.  

Link Posted: 7/27/2014 3:33:12 PM EDT
[#3]
New reloader so... grain of salt...


I too wish I could replicate the BB loads, but...
My understanding is they have done a great deal of experimentation with many different components, powders and techniques to arrive at the ideal loads.  Far more than most individuals could hope to accomplish.
You'll need just the right combination of brass, primers, bullets, gas checks, etc to get anywhere near the BB loads.
Post your results because I want to know.
Link Posted: 7/27/2014 3:44:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Some of these smaller ammunition manufacturers have some really outstanding loads.  If I do go down this path, I'll keep this thread up to date with my results.
Link Posted: 7/27/2014 4:24:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Gas checks are important with high velocity lead bullet loads.  The higher volume of very hot gas at very high pressures is going to do a number on plain lead; it will either lead your bore horribly, or cut around the base of the bullet, or both.  A gas check, being made of gilding metal and with its much higher melting temperature, will help control the hot gas and decrease the possibility of heavy leading that high velocity lead bullets tend to deposit in barrels.

Finally, I'd say that a 180gr bullet at 1800fps out of a 4" barrel is more than "ambitious."  It sounds "masochistic" to me.  
Link Posted: 7/27/2014 4:44:45 PM EDT
[#6]
That's what I'm not sure about.  1200-1300 fps doesn't really seem that fast to me, especially for bullets with a brinnel hardness of ~18.  Maybe the Cast performance bullets are meant to handle .357 max velocities.  I'm new to loading hard cast bullets though, so I really don't know.  If it creates a better seal then it might be worth the extra cost.

And that's ~1400 fps out of a 4" barrel for the Buffalo Bore.  1800 fps out of an 18" Marlin barrel.
Link Posted: 7/27/2014 5:48:11 PM EDT
[#7]
OK, 1400 is less painful sounding.

Hardness doesn't substantially change how hot gasses act on lead.  Hard or soft, powder gasses are like a cutting torch, so for high velocities I'd use gas checked bullets.
Link Posted: 7/27/2014 6:10:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Absolutely use Gas Checked bullets, in a pinch, Lee makes a kit to install gas checks on your own bullets, but realistically, are you planning to shoot several hundred of these per range visit?  If not, then the cost per bullet is less of an issue.
Link Posted: 7/27/2014 8:49:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Speer makes a 180 gr TMJ bullet.  With a jacketed bullet, there's no leading issues.  I've used them in my 357 magnum for plates and bowling pins.  

Hodgdon has loading data for 180 gr loads using H110, W296 and H4227.  They show a range of 13.0 to 13.5 gr of H110/W296 for that bullet weight.
Link Posted: 7/28/2014 11:21:08 AM EDT
[#10]
I was thinking that 180 grain would be the way to go, but should I be looking at something lighter?  Cast performance has a WFN 160 grain bullet, but are there any others you would recommend?  

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Absolutely use Gas Checked bullets, in a pinch, Lee makes a kit to install gas checks on your own bullets, but realistically, are you planning to shoot several hundred of these per range visit?  If not, then the cost per bullet is less of an issue.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Absolutely use Gas Checked bullets, in a pinch, Lee makes a kit to install gas checks on your own bullets, but realistically, are you planning to shoot several hundred of these per range visit?  If not, then the cost per bullet is less of an issue.

I don't plan on shooting these in much volume.

Quoted:
Speer makes a 180 gr TMJ bullet.  With a jacketed bullet, there's no leading issues.  I've used them in my 357 magnum for plates and bowling pins.  

Hodgdon has loading data for 180 gr loads using H110, W296 and H4227.  They show a range of 13.0 to 13.5 gr of H110/W296 for that bullet weight.

Thanks, but I'm really looking for something hard cast with a very wide meplat.  That might be a good practice load though.
Link Posted: 7/28/2014 12:22:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Thanks, but I'm really looking for something hard cast with a very wide meplat.  That might be a good practice load though.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Speer makes a 180 gr TMJ bullet.  With a jacketed bullet, there's no leading issues.  I've used them in my 357 magnum for plates and bowling pins.  

Hodgdon has loading data for 180 gr loads using H110, W296 and H4227.  They show a range of 13.0 to 13.5 gr of H110/W296 for that bullet weight.

Thanks, but I'm really looking for something hard cast with a very wide meplat.  That might be a good practice load though.


The TMJ is a thin copper plating that completely encloses the lead bullet.  It is not a jacketed bullet like an FMJ.  They have a long bearing surface, like the hard cast bullets you show in your links.  It also uses your preferred powder, your H110.  The loading is specific to the bullet weight you want to use, too.

With those facts taken together, I think the loading data on the Speer web site would be a good guideline for loading of 180 gr hard cast lead bullets - a starting point, at the very least.  At least, I think so, which is why I pointed it out.

There is no substitute for proper load development in your firearm,... in your barrel.


If none of this helps, feel free to ignore it.
Link Posted: 7/28/2014 12:58:17 PM EDT
[#12]
I have used 16 grains of H110 with the excellent Ranch Dog 175 grain 357 bullet.    Ranch Dog's data maxes out at 16.4 grains, so my load is stiff, but showed no signs of pressure in either my 4" GP100 or my 18.5" 1894c.
Link Posted: 7/28/2014 3:12:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Six inch GP100. Hornady 180gr XTP. 15.5gr Hodgon Lil' Gun.  1300fps, and VERY accurate.

With H110, I couldn't get the speed, or accuracy with the 180's.

110 worked very well with 125's.

Haven't loaded any heavy cast.
Link Posted: 8/4/2014 6:45:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Check out the Beartooth Bullets website.   He makes a 185 gr WFNGC.   The loading data is there.  The owner has extensive experience with that bullet.

I managed to get 1300 fps from a 4 inch S&W 686 with the Cast Performance 187 gr WFPGC bullet.   That was with AA#9 powder.  At that speed, you will start to feel the recoil.   Groups ran about 1 inch from a rest at 25 yards.   I was only able to get 1260 fps with WW296.

I think the 180-190 gr range is about right for a serious 357 load.   I have used plain based 180 gr bullets at 1200 fps with no leading.  I prefer the gas checks for serious loads as they have given the best accuracy for me.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 11:31:40 AM EDT
[#15]
If you can find it, VV N110 will give you that velocity with ease.  Their original book listed a GP 100 4" launching a 158 JHP at 1600 fps+.
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