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Posted: 6/23/2014 10:37:49 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Yes. You read it correctly. I discovered the Holy Grail........ well, not all on my own - I did have an ammo company give me some hints way back when. I have come up with a 223/5.56mm ammo that is subsonic, fits in a standard magazine, and cycles without modification to the rifle. I've been at this since 2007 working with cast and jacketed projectiles from 53gr to 100gr. You do have to pay attention to having the correct buffer and spring in your rifle. My loads work in 16" carbines and 10.3" SBR's with a suppressor. I am not using Trail Boss, Clays or Tightgroup - these are published non-cycling loads. My load is not duplex - which is just silly stupid to be doing........ and one of the reasons I am posting this. I don't like the idea that someone is experimenting with duplex loads and will probably hurt themselves when I am sitting on a safe load. MY ISSUE - I spent 7 years working on this........... I would like to get more out of it than knowing 10,000 people copied my load post and are taking credit for my work. Any ideas? Anyone have a point of contact at an AR or handloading magazine? From what I have read on other forums - the sooner I get this out into the wild - the better. Some folks are doing some pretty hair brain things. That - and I need to get it out - and not deal with liability. Ideas? |
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Posted: 6/23/2014 11:10:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Form an LLC for $300. Register w/ your state for sales tax. Start a website on GoDaddy for $80. Sell your load via your website. If someone blows their gun up, they sue the LLC, and win, they now own the website. Or you could just go screw it, I'm gonna put it out there, good luck.
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Posted: 6/23/2014 12:09:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Alternatively, do what backbencher said, and also get yourself a Type 6 FFL and sell loaded ammo and pray that nobody figures out your powder type and charge, assuming you are using a commercially available projectile.
Once the load gets out there, even if person 1 pays for it, they will tell person 2 and then the world will know. TR |
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Posted: 6/23/2014 12:25:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Contact member Gunwritr.
User name matches his job. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/649619_WOLF_STEEL_CASE_6_5MM_GRENDEL_PRODUCTION_AMMO_ARRIVED_UPDATE_with_pic_IN_OP.html One of his threads. (easy way for you to IM him) |
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Posted: 6/23/2014 1:35:37 PM EDT
[#5]
You can also go here and see what these Gun Writers have to say.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/forums/34/1/Ask_The_Gunwriters I hope you load is not a case full of a Slow for Cartridge powder that produces plenty of port pressure with minimal chamber pressure? It is my understanding that this scenario is the reason for SEE or Secondary Explosion Effect. |
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Posted: 6/23/2014 2:35:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Yes. You read it correctly. I discovered the Holy Grail........ well, not all on my own - I did have an ammo company give me some hints way back when. I have come up with a 223/5.56mm ammo that is subsonic, fits in a standard magazine, and cycles without modification to the rifle. I've been at this since 2007 working with cast and jacketed projectiles from 53gr to 100gr. You do have to pay attention to having the correct buffer and spring in your rifle. My loads work in 16" carbines and 10.3" SBR's with a suppressor. I am not using Trail Boss, Clays or Tightgroup - these are published non-cycling loads. My load is not duplex - which is just silly stupid to be doing........ and one of the reasons I am posting this. I don't like the idea that someone is experimenting with duplex loads and will probably hurt themselves when I am sitting on a safe load. MY ISSUE - I spent 7 years working on this........... I would like to get more out of it than knowing 10,000 people copied my load post and are taking credit for my work. Any ideas? Anyone have a point of contact at an AR or handloading magazine? From what I have read on other forums - the sooner I get this out into the wild - the better. Some folks are doing some pretty hair brain things. That - and I need to get it out - and not deal with liability. Ideas? so your worried about people getting hurt with unsafe loads, but dont want to post the "safe" load. the sooner you get it out the better.... just post it. get it out without liability, post and say use at your own risk. if you put it in a magazine where LARGE amounts of people will read you open yourself to more liability, assuming people buy reloading magazines (I dont) "i blew my gun up after reading that article Glacierwolf posted in xxxxx magazine" |
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Posted: 6/26/2014 5:41:17 AM EDT
[#7]
So...are you going to post the load?
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Posted: 6/26/2014 6:08:03 AM EDT
[#8]
My suggestion is to call Lyman explain what you have and see if they will test/confirm/publish with a footnote of how the load/loads were developed.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 6/26/2014 7:25:04 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm torn. I WANT THE LOAD DATA NOW.
But I also understand the free market, and if you found the holy grail through extensive testing and cost, you should be rewarded. I would get the load pressure tested, to make sure that it conforms to SAAMI for the entire length of the barrel. Good luck OP. TXL |
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Posted: 6/26/2014 10:33:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Note to all, this poster (OP) can no longer post on this site. He was banned.
Lets just say he chose his words in an email poorly, and leave it at that. |
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Posted: 6/26/2014 10:40:48 AM EDT
[#11]
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless?
Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? |
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Posted: 6/26/2014 12:03:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Dryflash,
When you say this poster, do you mean the OP? I had a bad feeling this was a "troll" to get us all going/ hopes up in an elaborate way 
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Posted: 6/26/2014 12:05:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Yes, and no. Think of all the applications for 22LR- then think of how great it would be to be re-load 22 LR, and if what the OP was saying is true, you could use these low-powered reloads in existing .223 semi-auto weapons without modification kits/adapters. |
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Posted: 6/26/2014 1:52:07 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dryflash, When you say this poster, do you mean the OP? I had a bad feeling this was a "troll" to get us all going/ hopes up in an elaborate way Yes, OP. Will edit my post, didn't mean to confuse. |
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Posted: 6/26/2014 3:18:17 PM EDT
[#15]
I suspect this thread was BS anyway.
taking into the account all the reloaders there are now, and the powders that are available (not many) someone would have probably stumbled across it by now. |
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Posted: 7/26/2014 3:33:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Note to all, this poster (OP) can no longer post on this site. He was banned. Lets just say he chose his words in an email poorly, and leave it at that. Banned for an email? Soul d like to know know more. Txl |
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Posted: 7/26/2014 4:06:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm torn. I WANT THE LOAD DATA NOW. But I also understand the free market, and if you found the holy grail through extensive testing and cost, you should be rewarded. I would get the load pressure tested, to make sure that it conforms to SAAMI for the entire length of the barrel. Good luck OP. TXL Judging by the OP's lack of either good grammar or interpersonal skills, it probably wasn't anything special! |
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Posted: 7/26/2014 5:31:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Banned for an email? Soul d like to know know more. Txl Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Note to all, this poster (OP) can no longer post on this site. He was banned. Lets just say he chose his words in an email poorly, and leave it at that. Banned for an email? Soul d like to know know more. Txl They went to the Pit, and the now banned member posted something that got him the ban hammer. If you don't know what the "Pit" is, click on the General Tab and it's the bottom forum on that list. (not talking to you TxLewis, talking to the new guys) All I'm going to say. Check the archives for more. dryflash3 |
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Posted: 7/26/2014 6:21:57 PM EDT
[#19]
I thought the pit was a safe area to call people at or say what ya want.
Back to the op's ammo. There is already ammo out there that will cycle and is sub sonic. Unless its something better in a way its just another sub ammo. I would have got a pat. and went to hornady. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 1:55:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Oh yeah, accuracy is not good if you drop the velocity that low. You are much better off with a .22. |
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Posted: 7/27/2014 2:09:51 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Now you have me confused. Subsonic .22LR is not useless, so why would a sub-sonic 5.56 round be useless? I understand that its applications would be seriously limited, but it is certainly not useless. Look at the PS90, FN won't sell the sub-sonic round to mere civilians, (even though it would be legal to do so). It can easily be cloned by reloaders, however. Basically, these 2 center fire sub-sonic cartridges would have the same applications. And both would most likely have the same level of effectiveness. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 7:51:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Thanks Dryflash.
Grendlebane. Yeah, IMO, a 55 gr pellot going 1000 fps is basically a .22LR For the cost, I'll stick with real 22lr subsonic. TXL |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 8:51:52 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh yeah, accuracy is not good if you drop the velocity that low. You are much better off with a .22. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Oh yeah, accuracy is not good if you drop the velocity that low. You are much better off with a .22. Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 9:17:04 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now you have me confused. Subsonic .22LR is not useless, so why would a sub-sonic 5.56 round be useless? I understand that its applications would be seriously limited, but it is certainly not useless. Look at the PS90, FN won't sell the sub-sonic round to mere civilians, (even though it would be legal to do so). It can easily be cloned by reloaders, however. Basically, these 2 center fire sub-sonic cartridges would have the same applications. And both would most likely have the same level of effectiveness. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Now you have me confused. Subsonic .22LR is not useless, so why would a sub-sonic 5.56 round be useless? I understand that its applications would be seriously limited, but it is certainly not useless. Look at the PS90, FN won't sell the sub-sonic round to mere civilians, (even though it would be legal to do so). It can easily be cloned by reloaders, however. Basically, these 2 center fire sub-sonic cartridges would have the same applications. And both would most likely have the same level of effectiveness. While not useless, i'd say less practical than a 22lr. I load [ IIRC] 2.8gr TG (not near load data) 55gr fmj @ 2.20 OAL using a tight crimp. 18" MVP shooting @ 100 yds POI averages 6-8" low with 2-3" right of target. Same for my AR's. It makes great Kentucky Windage practice ammo. Nice for shooting get togethers where you're limited distance wise. There are some practical uses, if you don't have a suppressor. Other than that, it's time better spent doing standard 223 loads, and using hand gun powder in hand guns. NOW if 22lr is not available and you want something fairly quiet ( sounds like a cap gun) out of a 16" bbl, for vermin, by all means load away. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 10:01:52 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Oh yeah, accuracy is not good if you drop the velocity that low. You are much better off with a .22. Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 2:16:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Oh yeah, accuracy is not good if you drop the velocity that low. You are much better off with a .22. Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? Yes, they had an 80gr bullet with a slightly oversized band around the bullet. There was a thread about it a couple of months back with pics. ETA: here's the thread http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=415363 |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 4:48:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Oh yeah, accuracy is not good if you drop the velocity that low. You are much better off with a .22. Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? I know that Gemtech states very firmly to NOT shoot Aguila 60 grainers through their Outback II suppressor as it apparently doesn't stabilize well enough in handguns. Dunno about rifles, cuz it shoots very well in my Glenfield 60 and 10/22. |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 5:00:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know that Gemtech states very firmly to NOT shoot Aguila 60 grainers through their Outback II suppressor as it apparently doesn't stabilize well enough in handguns. Dunno about rifles, cuz it shoots very well in my Glenfield 60 and 10/22. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? I know that Gemtech states very firmly to NOT shoot Aguila 60 grainers through their Outback II suppressor as it apparently doesn't stabilize well enough in handguns. Dunno about rifles, cuz it shoots very well in my Glenfield 60 and 10/22. I imagine most pistol bbls don't have a fast enough twist to for it to stabilize @ that low velocity. |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 6:30:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know that Gemtech states very firmly to NOT shoot Aguila 60 grainers through their Outback II suppressor as it apparently doesn't stabilize well enough in handguns. Dunno about rifles, cuz it shoots very well in my Glenfield 60 and 10/22. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't the lack of energy of a subsonic 5.56 round make it just about useless? Like, your just as well off using subsonic 22 LR? Oh yeah, accuracy is not good if you drop the velocity that low. You are much better off with a .22. Weren't the Soviet's using a suppressed AK-74 w/ subsonic ammo in Afghanistan? The heaviest .22"LR I'm aware of is Aguila's SSS w/ a 60 grn. Does 75/77 grn not stabilize in a 1/7" bbl subsonic? I know that Gemtech states very firmly to NOT shoot Aguila 60 grainers through their Outback II suppressor as it apparently doesn't stabilize well enough in handguns. Dunno about rifles, cuz it shoots very well in my Glenfield 60 and 10/22. 75/77 grain 223 bullets have a good stability factor in a 1-7 barrel at 1050 fps. |
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Posted: 8/1/2014 6:36:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Meh I don't worry about subsonic 5.56mm when I have better options like subsonic 9mm and 300BLK subsonic calibers that I can run in my AR-15's suppressed for hearing safe shooting.
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