I am using this load in some .38 specials. All the data says this should be an OK load , even "mid-range" for non +p

I am getting squibs and very low velocities on it .

I have a DIllon 550  , Dillion dies . I have measured these loads after getting a few squibs . They have 5.0gr of unique in them .

Looks like I have  a crimp ...

Any ideas ??

shot in S&W 686 2.5" and Ruger Security Six 4"

Doesn't sound normal, but that is reloading for you.

Have you tried slightly higher loads?

Were you shooting them in unusually low temperatures?

I would bump it up .2 to .3 grains, and see what happens.

Or, you could try a faster powder.  Unique works well at higher pressures.  For years, it was used for light revolver loads, but faster powders were usually better.

Indoor range ~70 degrees . I am thinking I can go to 6.0 safely since I shoot them in .357 guns .

Also considered switching to Bullseye

did you make sure the scale was correct?  I have heard of guys doing this and the scale was off,  unique burns pretty quick.....

Bullseye and Unique are both originally 19th century powders, and it does my heart good to see some one using them.

When I first started reloading, in the late 1970s, well, except for a few obsolete powders, I was using what the gurus in the 1930s recommended.

Yes, I used Bullseye, Unique, and 2400.  (To be fair, 2400 was introduced some time in the early 30s, but Bullseye and Unique are both 19th century smokeless powders, though improved, but you could use them with 100 year old loading data, except for the balloon head case volume, and the difference in primers.

Try Bullseye, or 231, or some thing faster than Unique.  I think you will find what you are looking for.

Yup, Dillon digital scale , weighed the  bullets on it and came to 130 gr

Hand measure each load, don't use your powder measure.  Retest.  It could be something simple like debris clogging your powder measure.  

I had three squibs in one day.  This was in the middle of tens of thousands of rounds.  I had changed my powder settings three times that day and while measuring and advancing my press, moved three empty cases through my press during the process of working up a load.  It only happened once due to a mistake and has not happened again in over 15 years.

I would strongly suggest purchasing the Dillon powder check die.  

I used to use Unique a lot with .38.  I will review my logbooks in a few hours.

4 grains of Unique in a 38 special case with a lead 158 SWC crimped at the crimp groove gets me a solid 750+ fps out of an SP 101 2.5" and will tear out the center of a target.

I am having trouble with 5 grains squibbing on you, but you are working with a lighter bullet.

If you have any remaining cartridges from the "batch" that caused you the squibs then I would pull them all down and check each powder charge, one by one.

My guess if you will find your answer by doing so.

jonblack

I did this, measured at 5.0 put powder back in and reseated . Squib


I'll add that I have loaded 1000s of round before . 45 colt, 45 acp, 30-06 , .223 , 40sw , 357 sig, 50 Beowulf, 7.62x51mm .

This is my first try at 38 and I am stumped .

Looking at my ancient load data from 1991, I used a lot of 125gr lrn or tcfp lead with 5.0 gr of Unique with plenty of good results.  

OK just checked my log and the bench, I don't know why I had 130 in my head, but they are 125 and the load data I used it for 125 . This is why I write stuff down

The primers are Tula , the Powder (and primers) run 9mm 147gr all day long . I have shot about 200 rounds of that combo .

ETA , I just pulled 11 and weighed the powder for S&G ... 55.4 gr

When you say you are using Berry's I am guessing you are using their plated bullets and not their lead pullets. Is that correct?

Just a wild thought, have you measured the bullet to make sure it is .357 and not .356? I am not sure if that would make that much difference just trying to brainstorm and help you work through the problem.

If you are sure the Unique is good based on the fact that it runs your 147gr 9mm load then the next thing i would do is further develop the 38 SPL load and work up the powder charge in small increments.

jonblack

do you wet tumble your brass?  

any chance of moisture?

Plated bullets?  Lee FCD?

Plated , Dillon dies .


I am going to tear everything down, reset dies and powder measure I think

Negative

Its almost always plated bullets.  My guess is the primer firing moves the bullet because of light neck tension. When the bullet moves, pressure can not build to make the powder burn correctly. Smokeless powder needs lots of pressure to burn correctly. Magnum primers may move the bullet to soon or get a better burn faster??   To fix, use a heavier bullet with a longer bearing surface to grip the case walls. Seating of the bullet should expand the case at least  .002"    http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

Thanks this is the best theory I think I have seen .

Going to pull these and reload with 158 (and different charge ) I think.

I agree with 243winxb that the issue is more than likely the bullet tension in the case. Even with adequate powder charges loose bullet tension WILL cause wild erratic velocities. Even a good crimp won't help much. The primer moves the bullet and increases the volume for the powder to burn in and velocity can get so low to cause a squib. It's worse with medium or slow speed .38 powders. If your expander is doing no expanding your cases may be too thin and your sizing die isn't reducing the case enough. Some .38 Special brass is thinner than others. I don't like combination 38/357 dies as they sometimes won't size thin brass enough. On thin .38 Special brass I size with my 38/357 die THEN I use my 9MM sizing die and run the case into the 9MM sizing die just past where the bullet would stop in the case. Then use your regular expander die. The 9MM sizing die is only about .002" smaller than the .38 die. .355 versus .357" That will increase bullet tension in thin .38 brass and stop squibs and erratic velocities. Watch and feel your expander die to see if it's doing any expanding?

A few years back I bought some Berry's plated 9mm bullets. I had very little reloading experience and I did not have good luck with the bullets. Same issue, not enough neck tension. I never mentioned here it because I figured I was doing something wrong and other folks seemed to like the Berry's plated bullets. I, however, was scared of them.

It was probably just me, and the fact I really didn't know what I was doing when I set up my dies. I set those aside and started using 147gr LRN bullets and have been using those ever since.

It would be interesting to see if your problems go away should you use another bullet.

BTW, the load data you are using, is it an interpolated load something between lead and jacketed bullets or do you have load date specific to plated bullets?

jonblack

The last round in the cylinder, after firing the other 5,  is the one you want to check.  Recoil may make it move  forward,  if neck tension is to. Light.

Not sure if this helps , but here is a pulled bullet

I have had some issues with lighter plated bullets needing higher weight charges than I expected . As others have said the suckers are slippery and are likely starting to move before the whole powder charge is ignighted .

Be real carefull you are not sticking a bullet in the barrel and then sending another behind it . This will almost always give you a bulge in the barrel .

Other things to watch for are the already mentioned powder charge hanging up in the measure (although the Dillon measure is solid
                                       
Any chance the powder itself got contaminated or mixed up with some other powder?

I never used Tula primers- could they be the weak link?

Could be one thing or a combination.

Could be a bullet a bit slippery that isn't getting a great crimp with primers that are a bit weak with powder charge on the mild side.

I like old school powders but generally when shooting mild loads in cases like 38sp which are pretty big compared to the amount of powder I like to stay with the very fast powders like bullseye .

If you can lay your hands on a chrono You might find velocities as low as 500 or 600fps . With such a mild load small varriences in charge weight can cause issues.

Chronos are pretty cheap if you get the basic model without all the bells and whistles and they can give you great solid info.

As much as we depend on loading books and charts there are in fact many factors that lead to the end result and without a chrono there is
some amount of guesswork.
Your load through your gun with a number in front of your face is a good solid end result that can answer many questions

Neck tension- I would check the  powder funnel/expander diameter. Should be about .356" to .3565"    Also measure the case neck area where the bullet will sit. Measure before and after seating the bullet. Has it expanded  about .002"  This might tell you if its a die problem??      " />

My experience was that plated bullets are not friendly to light loads and they tend to stick in the bbl.  You think getting a 125 out of a barrel sucks try doing it with a 158 with 2x the bearing surface.  I don't think it is a neck tension issue. If you look at the pulled bullet you can see that there is a significant crimp on the bullet.

Here is my theory on this. When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras...

A 38SPL is a very old black powder based cartridge and being such it has a much larger case volume than most other modern smokeless powder cartridges. What I have encountered is that this difference in volume has a HUGE difference in how the powder is ignited, how the pressure builds and how complete the burn is. I did some experiments with 2.8gr of Bullseye and found that there was a huge extreme spread when it came to small charges in large case volumes. One way to increase the consistency was to point the muzzle up just before each shot.

What I started doing was when loading light bullets I started seating them flush with case mouth like a wad cutter and all of a sudden my shot to shot consistency was very stable. This was a tip I got from a long time 38SPL shooter.

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that plated bullets were recomended to be used with medium to heavy loads (that's something for you to look into, not me telling you a hard fact )

I have shot 500 plus rounds of Xtreme 158g SWCs out of a 5" barrel 686 on 4g of Unique.  What a powder puff load that is.  Super accurate as well.

I myself have never heard of light load plated bullets sticking nor experienced it.  

This is definitely an interesting thread OP.  Hope you get to the bottom of it.

That looks about like the crimp groove I got on that exact same bullet from Berry's. Used Lee Factory Crimp Die. I will say that when I pull mine, they have more scuff marks than your picture shows on yours.

Delete duplicate.
 

I have always been under the impression you should not roll crimp plated bullets.  The Lee FCD is a roll crimp die.  I've been using an RCBS taper crimp die on my plated 38 special loads.  

Interesting. I bought the Lee 4 die set and went throughhotos of different crimpn settings with the board here. Here's a link to that thread

 

This is an odd problem.
Assuming it isn't human error (didn't get powder in the cases)
Whether there is a crimp on the plated bullets or not shouldn't cause a squib. It may cause poor performance, but not a squib.
5gr of unique will shove whatever is in front of it down the barrel :)
Are we sure this powder is good? Does it smell a bit like a solvent, paint thinner etc?
Are we sure there is no corncob or walnut in the flashholes?

I can't see this being anything more than one of those (DUH) moments when the realization hits you that something absolutely silly is happening.

I once had a dead fly in the bottom of my powder measure. Some cases would get some powder, but not a full charge. Some would be fine. Some were empty. Kept cycling and watching it..... couldn't figure it out for the life of me.

Update of sorts ....

I was borrowing the dies from a friend , and the bullets were free . So....

I bought a new set of Lee 4 die deluxe (usually use Lee and was planning on buying anyways)
Ordered 158gr plated bullets from RMR (158 was original plan )
Paid my 9 year old to pull about 150 rounds with an impact puller


Probably will not get  a definitive answer as to the problem, but I will let you know how the new load works.

Nope didn't work...



Then I checked the crimp. I have no idea how I forgot how to crimp, but twice on two sets of dies I did not crimp good enought. I put a decent turn on the seat/crimp die (lee) and I think I might be sorted now