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Posted: 1/10/2016 12:12:41 AM EDT
[#1]
The problem comes from the fact that the shell plates are not flat on the bottom. The shell plates that drag are warped. You can try to return the shell plate to Hornady and see if you get a flatter plate. The shimming should really have nothing to do with the shell plate as you are trying to set the distance that the drive hub sits above the sub-plate. You can help yourself by wet sanding the bottom of the shell plate on a glass plate, but since the shell plate is hard it takes some time. If you do this punch the balls up in the plate so they don't get flat spotted.
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LA, USA
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Posted: 1/10/2016 12:27:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dbrevelle]
[#2]
I'll probably just get another #16 shell plate and see what it does. I tried to sand the high spots that showed rubbing but, like you say, its hardend steel so it wasn't doing much to increase clearance.
The shimming exposed the difference with individual shell plates. The more warped (#16) dragged while the straight one (#6] had the clearance I set when I shimmed it. |
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Posted: 1/10/2016 1:28:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dbrevelle:
I'll probably just get another #16 shell plate and see what it does. I tried to sand the high spots that showed rubbing but, like you say, its hardend steel so it wasn't doing much to increase clearance. The shimming exposed the difference with individual shell plates. The more warped (#16) dragged while the straight one (#6] had the clearance I set when I shimmed it. This mirrors my experience. I have one really good plate, two medium, and one difficult child. |
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Posted: 1/10/2016 3:59:32 PM EDT
[#4]
I wonder if Hornady would exchange a plate with flatness issues? I haven't really tried to do any diagnostics on any of my plates, they all seem to work. I did have an issue with the shims, I used a fairly thin shim .003 or .002 and it worked great for the 9mm, but not very good for .223 (binding IIRC). It could be that my .223 plate needs some work, though the only cartridge I have any issues with is the 9mm because my cases are full. If I ever run out of Blue Dot, I'll find a better 9mm powder.
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Posted: 1/10/2016 4:27:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TZ250]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57:
I wonder if Hornady would exchange a plate with flatness issues? I haven't really tried to do any diagnostics on any of my plates, they all seem to work. I did have an issue with the shims, I used a fairly thin shim .003 or .002 and it worked great for the 9mm, but not very good for .223 (binding IIRC). It could be that my .223 plate needs some work, though the only cartridge I have any issues with is the 9mm because my cases are full. If I ever run out of Blue Dot, I'll find a better 9mm powder. Try applying a small amount of heavy grease under the shell plate near the dive hub. This will serve to damp the movement of the shell plate when the pawls let go and the balls attempt to enter the detents. |
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Posted: 1/10/2016 6:52:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57:
I wonder if Hornady would exchange a plate with flatness issues? I haven't really tried to do any diagnostics on any of my plates, they all seem to work. I did have an issue with the shims, I used a fairly thin shim .003 or .002 and it worked great for the 9mm, but not very good for .223 (binding IIRC). It could be that my .223 plate needs some work, though the only cartridge I have any issues with is the 9mm because my cases are full. If I ever run out of Blue Dot, I'll find a better 9mm powder. Give them a call. Although their customer service is only available by phone (1-800-338-3220) during business hours (and they don't say what time zone), they are quite responsive. I've gotten very quick responses from them from their online inquiry form. |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 10:34:22 PM EDT
[#7]
I've had the case feeder for my LnL AP for almost as long as I've had the press. The bracket that the output bin hangs on, which is also the base for the cam wire that operates the case feed "pusher" slide, seemed to be "springy" when I tried to bottom the press for priming.
I had issues with priming consistently, and sometimes unprimed cases (fine ball powder makes a HUGE mess when it trickles all over your press), and I was thinking it was just that I wasn't doing something right. Maybe that was the case - I was putting up with the bracket being in the way. I finally got tired of fighting it and examined it in detail. The bracket has a flat piece that goes under the sub plate, which is supposed to act as a ramp for cases to fall from the shell plate into the output bin. Mine was bent upward, just enough that when I tried bottoming out the ram, it resisted. So I unmounted the whole press - necessary to get the bracket off - and re-bent the ramp section of the bracket so that it's now pretty close to level. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Tonight I ran some cases through the press, sizing them and seeing how well the press operated. It's almost effortless, and bottoming the press to operate the priming punch is so natural and smooth, I'm really looking forward to my next session with the press. |
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Posted: 1/15/2016 11:17:49 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
I've had the case feeder for my LnL AP for almost as long as I've had the press. The bracket that the output bin hangs on, which is also the base for the cam wire that operates the case feed "pusher" slide, seemed to be "springy" when I tried to bottom the press for priming. I had issues with priming consistently, and sometimes unprimed cases (fine ball powder makes a HUGE mess when it trickles all over your press), and I was thinking it was just that I wasn't doing something right. Maybe that was the case - I was putting up with the bracket being in the way. I finally got tired of fighting it and examined it in detail. The bracket has a flat piece that goes under the sub plate, which is supposed to act as a ramp for cases to fall from the shell plate into the output bin. Mine was bent upward, just enough that when I tried bottoming out the ram, it resisted. So I unmounted the whole press - necessary to get the bracket off - and re-bent the ramp section of the bracket so that it's now pretty close to level. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Tonight I ran some cases through the press, sizing them and seeing how well the press operated. It's almost effortless, and bottoming the press to operate the priming punch is so natural and smooth, I'm really looking forward to my next session with the press. Good information! |
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Posted: 1/15/2016 10:20:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TZ250:
Good information! Thanks! I felt like a fool when I finally figured it out, but I didn't have anything else to compare ti too, so I guess I'll give myself a pass this time. 
Further information on this part: it is formally called the Main Bracket, and it's part 42 (shown on page 5 of the LnL AP Case Feeder manual. The part that got in the way is at the front of the bracket, the trapezoid section right next to the cam wire fitting tab. The rest of the bracket's form makes it difficult to just clamp the section in a vise and bend it - the section just behind that twists too easily. I had to clamp the output bin lip in the vise and whack the trapezoid part with a mallet to get it to bend cleanly. That trapezoid part should be parallel with the base section of the bracket as well as the cam wire tab. I don't know why mine wasn't that way, but I think it's important for someone installing a case feeder to look at that part with a critical eye before they get as frustrated as I did. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2016 1:10:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
Further information on this part: it is formally called the Main Bracket, and it's part 42 (shown on page 5 of the LnL AP Case Feeder manual. The part that got in the way is at the front of the bracket, the trapezoid section right next to the cam wire fitting tab. The rest of the bracket's form makes it difficult to just clamp the section in a vise and bend it - the section just behind that twists too easily. I had to clamp the output bin lip in the vise and whack the trapezoid part with a mallet to get it to bend cleanly. That trapezoid part should be parallel with the base section of the bracket as well as the cam wire tab. I don't know why mine wasn't that way, but I think it's important for someone installing a case feeder to look at that part with a critical eye before they get as frustrated as I did. Take a look at the vastly superior bracket from Inline fabrications with single/double bin holder |
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Posted: 1/16/2016 3:23:34 PM EDT
[#11]
I have, and if my play money wasn't as tight as it is, I'd have replaced my bracket already.
I think the LnL AP started out as "a product to compete with Dillon's 550 press," (at least in concept), with the case feeder being an afterthought. It's not a "bad" afterthought, and it's quite adaptable, but there are compromises in the design that give users some challenges. |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2016 1:25:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Did this yesterday. Turns out mine needed a 5 thou shim; indexing is very smooth now. I probably need to adjust the pawls a little bit but it has improved the jumping action I've been seeing on my shell plates.
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Posted: 2/2/2016 1:37:02 PM EDT
[#13]
I have another thread on this, but I though I'd put a note in here as well.
I've been having problems with indexing. I've adjusted pawls every which way possible and I can't seem to shake the problem. What is happening is the primer is starting to lift and catching on the case before the plate has fully indexed. I have the pawls set so that you can run a smooth even stroke up through the push back to seat a primer and it works perfectly with an unprimed case and no primer in the shuttle. As soon as you put a primer in the shuttle, however, it jams just before the plate indexes. So I have to pause the stroke and take any pressure off of the handle, then the detent balls will index the plate. This is not conducive to a smooth reloading stroke or operation. Using a depth micrometer I made some measurements and figured out that with the handle in the neutral position and the shell plate indexed the primer seating post is about 0.104" below the bottom of a case (I can get a 0.004 feeler gauge between a case and the subplate) A normal primer depth is 0.115 - 0.125. I think this is the problem - the primer is too high too soon. I took a silicone carbide grinding burr on my trusty dremel tool and ground a bit of material off of the press housing where the primer punch seats. Through trial and error I eventually ground down about 0.020". The few test cases I've run seem to work. I still have 0.020 protrusion of the primer post through the shuttle so I should not have created a new problem of not being able to seat primers fully. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 2/2/2016 2:34:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57:
I have another thread on this, but I though I'd put a note in here as well. I've been having problems with indexing. I've adjusted pawls every which way possible and I can't seem to shake the problem. What is happening is the primer is starting to lift and catching on the case before the plate has fully indexed. I have the pawls set so that you can run a smooth even stroke up through the push back to seat a primer and it works perfectly with an unprimed case and no primer in the shuttle. As soon as you put a primer in the shuttle, however, it jams just before the plate indexes. So I have to pause the stroke and take any pressure off of the handle, then the detent balls will index the plate. This is not conducive to a smooth reloading stroke or operation. Using a depth micrometer I made some measurements and figured out that with the handle in the neutral position and the shell plate indexed the primer seating post is about 0.104" below the bottom of a case (I can get a 0.004 feeler gauge between a case and the subplate) A normal primer depth is 0.115 - 0.125. I think this is the problem - the primer is too high too soon. I took a silicone carbide grinding burr on my trusty dremel tool and ground a bit of material off of the press housing where the primer punch seats. Through trial and error I eventually ground down about 0.020". The few test cases I've run seem to work. I still have 0.020 protrusion of the primer post through the shuttle so I should not have created a new problem of not being able to seat primers fully. I could see this being an issue with casting thickness in the area where the primer installer pushes down on the actual press casting. I also took a look at mine and the dance between the shell plate locking out and the primer starting to come up is crazy narrow. Your solution of making the divot deeper is exactly what I would do. |
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Posted: 2/17/2016 3:19:32 PM EDT
[#15]
I have not had much of a chance to test my re-timing of the primer seating punch- but I did run about 40 9mm loads through it yesterday. It seems to have had a major impact on the operation of the machine. It moves and indexes without any hesitation or hang up. In fact I think I can back off on the left pawl slightly as it seems to be over indexing now. Case drag may have been an issue with my particular press all along.
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:20:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Has anyone tried turning .010 or so off the bottom of the primer nut assembly? Seems to be working great and primers are noticeably deeper.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 2:31:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mach1soldier:
Has anyone tried turning .010 or so off the bottom of the primer nut assembly? Seems to be working great and primers are noticeably deeper. I have done that to mine to get the primers to seat a little deeper. I removed the e-clip to disassemble and I sanded the bottom of the nut to allow the plunger to travel further. It did seem to help. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 6:18:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Once I got the case catcher bin bracket to stop limiting my press's downward travel, primers are all clearly going in below flush. Make sure you don't have something keeping you from bottoming the ram before you modify parts.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 7:57:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Are-O-Be]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
Once I got the case catcher bin bracket to stop limiting my press's downward travel, primers are all clearly going in below flush. Make sure you don't have something keeping you from bottoming the ram before you modify parts. On my press the sub plate never gets close enough to touch the bin bracket. It was bottoming out on the primer plunger assy. In my case, modifying the plunger assy. did help along with the shimming described in this thread. One thing I did do slightly different was to shim the drive hub more than what is required for the shell plate to still rotate. And then use an appropriate shim under the shell plate so that it can just rotate freely. This way I can just keep the right shim with each shell plate. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:39:50 PM EDT
[#20]
My shell plates must be more consistent than some folks'. I just put in a single shim and all of my plates move fine. I do recommend following Hornady's instructions and applying a little bit of a light grease on the sub plate now and then. I wipe it down and re-apply a small dab of plumber's silicone grease whenever I change shell plates.
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Posted: 2/19/2016 1:01:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
My shell plates must be more consistent than some folks'. I just put in a single shim and all of my plates move fine. I do recommend following Hornady's instructions and applying a little bit of a light grease on the sub plate now and then. I wipe it down and re-apply a small dab of plumber's silicone grease whenever I change shell plates. The grease acts as a viscous damper that will lessen the jerky movement. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2016 6:00:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TZ250:
The grease acts as a viscous damper that will lessen the jerky movement. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TZ250:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
My shell plates must be more consistent than some folks'. I just put in a single shim and all of my plates move fine. I do recommend following Hornady's instructions and applying a little bit of a light grease on the sub plate now and then. I wipe it down and re-apply a small dab of plumber's silicone grease whenever I change shell plates. The grease acts as a viscous damper that will lessen the jerky movement. I don't like any thought of any grease near my cases, primers, any of it. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2016 6:13:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Are-O-Be:
I have done that to mine to get the primers to seat a little deeper. I removed the e-clip to disassemble and I sanded the bottom of the nut to allow the plunger to travel further. It did seem to help. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Are-O-Be:
Originally Posted By mach1soldier:
Has anyone tried turning .010 or so off the bottom of the primer nut assembly? Seems to be working great and primers are noticeably deeper. I have done that to mine to get the primers to seat a little deeper. I removed the e-clip to disassemble and I sanded the bottom of the nut to allow the plunger to travel further. It did seem to help. Look at your press where the plunger makes contact. On mine the plunger made a divot that wouldnt allow the primers to seat deep enough. I ended up gluing a dime on the press over the divot and that fixed it on mine |
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Posted: 2/19/2016 8:41:23 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Bossman:
I don't like any thought of any grease near my cases, primers, any of it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Bossman:
Originally Posted By TZ250:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
My shell plates must be more consistent than some folks'. I just put in a single shim and all of my plates move fine. I do recommend following Hornady's instructions and applying a little bit of a light grease on the sub plate now and then. I wipe it down and re-apply a small dab of plumber's silicone grease whenever I change shell plates. The grease acts as a viscous damper that will lessen the jerky movement. I don't like any thought of any grease near my cases, primers, any of it. No problems encountered after thousands of rounds. If I were loading self defense or critical hunt ammo I might begin to be concerned, but 99.99% of my rounds go downrange for three gun training so even if I did have a FTF it would be NBD. |
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Posted: 2/19/2016 9:55:56 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Bossman:
I don't like any thought of any grease near my cases, primers, any of it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR-Bossman:
Originally Posted By TZ250:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
My shell plates must be more consistent than some folks'. I just put in a single shim and all of my plates move fine. I do recommend following Hornady's instructions and applying a little bit of a light grease on the sub plate now and then. I wipe it down and re-apply a small dab of plumber's silicone grease whenever I change shell plates. The grease acts as a viscous damper that will lessen the jerky movement. I don't like any thought of any grease near my cases, primers, any of it. Silicone grease does not affect anything - powder, primers, anything. That's why I use it. The worst it does is to make any spilled powder easy to clean up. Further, I only grease the subplate inside the diameter of the notches on the shellplate, so the bottoms of the cases don't get greased. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2016 3:57:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: acon308]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57: I wonder if Hornady would exchange a plate with flatness issues? But it seems I'd have to sand/polish the subplate w a whetstone. The shellplates appear to be hardened and difficult to remove material. Is the subplate the same way? What do people recommend to use to polish/flatten/smooth the subplate...I was thinking a 400/1000 grit whetstone, perhaps w higher grit paper wrapped around the stone if needed. Stones with this fine grit are usually soft and will not likely hold up to smoothing the hardened shellplates. Shellplates also have the ball detents to deal with. So this all makes me think it's best to ask Hornady to exchange shellplates to get flatter ones, if they are a problem. Theoretically, their hardness will make them resist wear spots, anyway. Bottom line: is the the subplate hardened or difficult to smooth-out? what procedure (and grit stone) do you recommend to do this? How often might it be needed? ..prob very infrequently. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2016 4:05:45 PM EDT
[#27]
added: has anyone consider chamfering the holes on the subplate into which the shellplate ball detents rest..a little more than they already are? I know there is already a chamfer there, but I'm saying make a slightly more angled chamfer at the "top" of the rest-hole without making the existing chamfer any deeper. The purpose would be to add a little more gradual ramp for the detent to ease home more gradually which should make indexing slightly smoother. ...but the risk v reward, from doing this, may not really be worth it. there's a part of me that'd want to try it, w just a very tiny extra beveling on the rest-holes.
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Posted: 2/20/2016 9:42:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By acon308:
added: has anyone consider chamfering the holes on the subplate into which the shellplate ball detents rest..a little more than they already are? I know there is already a chamfer there, but I'm saying make a slightly more angled chamfer at the "top" of the rest-hole without making the existing chamfer any deeper. The purpose would be to add a little more gradual ramp for the detent to ease home more gradually which should make indexing slightly smoother. ...but the risk v reward, from doing this, may not really be worth it. there's a part of me that'd want to try it, w just a very tiny extra beveling on the rest-holes. Off the top of my head I'd be reluctant to try it. One of the things I battle is shell plate jump causing powder to shake out of the cases. More lead in MAY lead to more jump. The shell plate can jump ahead of the pawls. If you were to chamfer them more than they are, I believe you'd have to decrease the set on the indexing balls so they were not as heavily sprung. Then you would or might have the problem of the plate being prone to over-travel. my $0.02 anyway. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 8:14:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By acon308:
added: has anyone consider chamfering the holes on the subplate into which the shellplate ball detents rest..a little more than they already are? I know there is already a chamfer there, but I'm saying make a slightly more angled chamfer at the "top" of the rest-hole without making the existing chamfer any deeper. The purpose would be to add a little more gradual ramp for the detent to ease home more gradually which should make indexing slightly smoother. ...but the risk v reward, from doing this, may not really be worth it. there's a part of me that'd want to try it, w just a very tiny extra beveling on the rest-holes. If you read the entire thread you will see that I did that very thing. I used a brand new center drill and did little more than break the edges. The sub-plate is easily stoned. I used a small diamond hand lap. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2016 12:07:39 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TZ250: If you read the entire thread you will see that I did that very thing. I used a brand new center drill and did little more than break the edges. The sub-plate is easily stoned. I used a small diamond hand lap. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2016 1:59:33 AM EDT
[#31]
Amazon had the press on sale for $380 shipped, so I got one. I just ordered the shim pack today. For the record, my hub measures 0.945 and my subplate measures 0.944.... Which seems untrue or incorrect. Now, my measurements could be off a few thou bc measuring that drive hub is difficult. But I can also tell you my shellplate measures 0.002 above the subplate which seems to fit w the above measurements. To get this, I used the depth gage w the shellplate mounted and then measured the thickness of the shellplate, and subtracted the smaller number from the bigger number and got 0.002 (this is my 9mm plate b/c the other two haven't arrived yet). So anyway, I may not need the shims but it was $7. My point is, I can't still press on the shellplate and feel a slight give. It makes an audible clicking souand...a bit more than I'd expect for 0.002". Also, to get the two drive shaft screws off to remove the subplate, I used a regular L-shaped 5/32" hex wrench and one of the primer tubes as a cheater bar. Was this dumb? Yes. But it worked out wo me bending the tube bc I gripped the middle of the tube rather than the end. I also unscrewed all the zerk fittings and used this super lube 51004 high viscosity oil rather than cheap lithium grease gun. http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-51004-Synthetic-Viscosity/dp/B000UKUHXK I like the food machinery grade aspect of it; I got at least 30 or 40 more years of reloading. I don't wanna get cancer. Lol. I hope to post my shim experience by next week. |
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Posted: 3/7/2016 9:49:13 AM EDT
[#32]
It sounds like you may not need the shims. It may be that Hornady has taken notice of the excessive clearance issue and made a running fix to the problem.
If you don't want to risk damaging a primer tube, a box end wrench makes an OK cheater bar ;) |
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Posted: 3/7/2016 3:51:57 PM EDT
[#33]
I'd say its very likely that many (maybe most) of the LNL's don't need shims but this thread does fix an issue if needed, or for fine tuning. Mine runs fine but I keep this thread bookmarked should I ever feel the need to tinker with it.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2016 7:26:52 PM EDT
[#34]
TZ250,
Thank you for starting this thread and to everyone else who has also contributed their insight into tuning the AP press through their input here. I spent the day reading the whole thing. I got my press about two weeks ago and after setting it up, noticed the variation in the C.O.L. of my product was considerably more than I was accustomed to with my Hornady single stage press. I was directed to this thread by a fellow press owner as a source of info regarding the press operation and tuning. I started with 45 acp and didn't notice any powder jumping out of the case during indexing but after switching over to 9 mm this weekend, I noticed some powder jumping out as it indexed...so I have the problem discussed in this thread. Funny, without realizing this was a problem, I started to place the projectile into the case before it finished indexing..before the jerk occurred...necessity being the mother of invention :-) I ordered the shims and will endeavor to address the issue more throughly as described throughout this thread. I had already noticed the spacing between the shell plate and the baseplate and thought that might cause an issue but now I understand why. I did see the link in this thread that talks about the C.O.L. issue and another shim fix that addresses that problem. I was wondering if the shimming discussed in this thread has any effect on the consistency of the overall length of the finished product? Thanks again for all this info.... |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2016 3:23:01 AM EDT
[#35]
1) My shell plate has very little gap between the shell plate and subplate. I tried using thin brass shims but it dragged.
2) However I had issues with over tightening the screws securing the subplate to the ram. Hornady told me they must be tightened to 65 inch pounds and no more. You will strip them as I did resulting in the subplate rocking and significant COL variation and priming problems. The heads of the screws draw the subplate down onto the ram by the way the hole is drilled in relation to the ram. A new subplate and screws has fixed my stripped subplate ($62). 3) Also beware of "camming" the sizing die on the shell plate. With a case in place the die can touch but shouldn't press the shell plate or you'll end up stressing the subplate. 4) BTW I have never been able to get consistent, reliable function of my LNL priming system. The old one or the new one. My press is 16 years old and been upgraded with time. I've done the tricks recommended. Polish, bevel, etc... It drove me to madness. The main issue is a primer getting stuck jamming the slide, which would pop the slide cam out. I'd have to empty the primers out and put it all back together, deal with the primers all over the place... Grrrrr. Since I now decap the cases before wet tumbling, I hand prime before putting the cases in the LNL (decapper is removed) and skip the hassle on the AP and I've never been happier. 5) Tip: to remove the primer waste tube, grab it with a pliers gently below the hole in the press and raise the ram. It will pop right off. To put it back, grab it with pliers above the hole in the press and lower the ram onto it. Presto! Leverage is wonderful.... |
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Posted: 3/8/2016 10:05:38 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Maycotek:
TZ250, Thank you for starting this thread and to everyone else who has also contributed their insight into tuning the AP press through their input here. I spent the day reading the whole thing. I got my press about two weeks ago and after setting it up, noticed the variation in the C.O.L. of my product was considerably more than I was accustomed to with my Hornady single stage press. I was directed to this thread by a fellow press owner as a source of info regarding the press operation and tuning. I started with 45 acp and didn't notice any powder jumping out of the case during indexing but after switching over to 9 mm this weekend, I noticed some powder jumping out as it indexed...so I have the problem discussed in this thread. Funny, without realizing this was a problem, I started to place the projectile into the case before it finished indexing..before the jerk occurred...necessity being the mother of invention :-) I ordered the shims and will endeavor to address the issue more throughly as described throughout this thread. I had already noticed the spacing between the shell plate and the baseplate and thought that might cause an issue but now I understand why. I did see the link in this thread that talks about the C.O.L. issue and another shim fix that addresses that problem. I was wondering if the shimming discussed in this thread has any effect on the consistency of the overall length of the finished product? Thanks again for all this info.... You are welcome!! To get consistent COAL you need to make sure that the seating operation is done as the press will be run. If you are FL sizing and dropping powder and crimping during a normal run then all those operations need to be happening during the seating process from which you take your measurement. |
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Posted: 3/8/2016 10:17:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By faldoc:
1) My shell plate has very little gap between the shell plate and subplate. I tried using thin brass shims but it dragged. 2) However I had issues with over tightening the screws securing the subplate to the ram. Hornady told me they must be tightened to 65 inch pounds and no more. You will strip them as I did resulting in the subplate rocking and significant COL variation and priming problems. The heads of the screws draw the subplate down onto the ram by the way the hole is drilled in relation to the ram. A new subplate and screws has fixed my stripped subplate ($62). 3) Also beware of "camming" the sizing die on the shell plate. With a case in place the die can touch but shouldn't press the shell plate or you'll end up stressing the subplate. 4) BTW I have never been able to get consistent, reliable function of my LNL priming system. The old one or the new one. My press is 16 years old and been upgraded with time. I've done the tricks recommended. Polish, bevel, etc... It drove me to madness. The main issue is a primer getting stuck jamming the slide, which would pop the slide cam out. I'd have to empty the primers out and put it all back together, deal with the primers all over the place... Grrrrr. Since I now decap the cases before wet tumbling, I hand prime before putting the cases in the LNL (decapper is removed) and skip the hassle on the AP and I've never been happier. 5) Tip: to remove the primer waste tube, grab it with a pliers gently below the hole in the press and raise the ram. It will pop right off. To put it back, grab it with pliers above the hole in the press and lower the ram onto it. Presto! Leverage is wonderful.... The FL die issue is common with most progressives. The die should only barely touch the shellplate at the top of the stroke. If the case is not sufficiently resized with the die next to the shellplate then the die will need to be modified. I had to remove .010" from the bottom of my Redding Type S .223 die to get the correct sizing. The die manufacturers set the proper shoulder length so that when a die is used in a cam over situation on a single stage that proper headspace will be maintained. This is a safety guard against excessive sizing. The AP will not tolerate a cam over condition. If you choose to modify your FL die then it must never be used in a situation where excessive sizing would be possible. Remember that cases sized to the proper dimension are the responsibility of the man pulling the handle and not th die maker. |
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Posted: 3/8/2016 10:12:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By faldoc:
4) BTW I have never been able to get consistent, reliable function of my LNL priming system. The old one or the new one. My press is 16 years old and been upgraded with time. I've done the tricks recommended. Polish, bevel, etc... It drove me to madness. The main issue is a primer getting stuck jamming the slide, which would pop the slide cam out. I'd have to empty the primers out and put it all back together, deal with the primers all over the place... Grrrrr. Since I now decap the cases before wet tumbling, I hand prime before putting the cases in the LNL (decapper is removed) and skip the hassle on the AP and I've never been happier. I had trouble with the slide not moving smoothly when I first set the press up, and when I tore down the slide and feed base, I saw that the wheel on the slide wasn't riding properly on the wire. I wiggled the wire and POOF! The wheel lined up nicely. Faldoc, this may not have anything to do with your problem, but it's something to look at. |
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Posted: 6/14/2016 10:22:35 AM EDT
[#39]
I had to come back to this thread for some help.
I picked up another used LNL that the prior owner couldn't get going. This one has me stumped. The primer is rising up out of the shuttle before the shell plate indexes fully. With no brass, this doesn't matter. With brass, it causes the primer to drag or bind against the brass and stops the plate from indexing. A quick thumb bump will get the detents to click in. Adjusting the pawl to the point that it indexes far enough results in the pawl binding when I go the other way. Talked to Hornady and they are going to send me another primer ram and spider gear, although I tried the ram from my other press and it didn't change anything. I read an older post about the toggle being out of spec, but Hornady says my serial number isn't part of that range. |
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Posted: 6/14/2016 11:27:40 AM EDT
[#40]
I spent a couple hours measuring things with a depth micrometer and finally figured out mine was doing this as well. Mine would index - but I had to pause the stroke at the neutral position and allow the detent balls to finish moving the plate, I had the left hand pawl set as high as I could without binding the machine. I took about .020 off of the body of the press where the primer ram hits. Now I can operate the handle without stopping or pausing at neutral. This makes for a much smoother operation.
I did enough measuring to convince myself I was not going to have a problem with primers not seating deep enough. By removing the material it allows the shell plate to move around a bit further before the primer starts to lift. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 6/14/2016 11:59:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AR-Bossman]
[#41]
n/m
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Posted: 6/14/2016 12:15:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: johnh57]
[#42]
Should be easy enough to inspect though. Take out the primer seating assembly and measure from sub-plate surface to the casting. There has to be a 'correct' dimension and a certain tolerance. I'll try to get a measurement on mine. Mine has to be close to a minimum, though I took off a bit more than I had originally planned to.
I keep thinking there should be an insert there that could be adjusted for timing the primer ram. I just don't have the right tooling to make it. ETA: On my press with the material removed. Platen / handle in neutral position : Distance from platen to casting body is 0.787" Platen / handle full back: Distance from platen to casting body is 0.604 |
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Posted: 6/14/2016 11:37:22 PM EDT
[#43]
John57, on your press, when was the last time you pulled the ram apart to check the wear between the drive shaft and the ram channel it goes through on the bottom for it?
If the wear is bad enough with too much slop between the two, you can just bore the bottom of the ram channel for a bronze bushing to resolve the slop, but bearing mod is better yet. As for getting Hornday to send you a new ram and drive rod for free if the wear slop is bad enough, might happen, but more often they call it standard operator wear and tear isntead. And a note, when you get a press brand new, if you take the time to pull it apart to at least de-bur the top and bottom edges of the ram channel for the drive rod, it will make the standard channel last a lot longer to begin with. Same goes for polishing the top of the drive wheel and where it going to rub against the bottom of the ram as well. As for the bearing mod, needle bearing in the ram channel for the drive rod that goes through it for a tight fit, then the bottom ram channel slightly depth stepped to accept a thrust bearing between it and the index wheel. On the top of the rod channel you could add another thrust bearing, but between just keeping the wave washer and C clip greased, they will last long enough/can be replaced when needed to not causing any problems. As for the drive hub, after you tear enough of them up with replacements, easy enough to just make a new on that uses a ball bearing instead. Plus, with a pin in the top of it, instead of the cast detent for the shell carrier indexing, it solves the detent shear problems. Note, the bearing mods may be over the top if you can get Hornady to replace the worn parts, but is a idea to keep in the back of your mind when the disconnite the press, and comes time to rebuild one when you can get factory parts instead. |
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Posted: 6/16/2016 9:58:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: miker84]
[#44]
^^^^ This is interesting. The benefit of having two presses side by side is that I can compare the two.
On the one that is having indexing issues, I can definitely wobble the index/spider gear much more than the one that runs smoothly. I went ahead and disassembled the ram just out of curiosity. Now I'm tempted to bore out the bottom of the ram for a bushing while it is apart. Edit: Thinking through this, if there was excessive wear in that lower ram hole, then it may be likely that the pawl moves the shaft within the worn bore while indexing before the index gear turns, therefore resulting in the appearance of needing excessive pawl adjustment. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 6/16/2016 7:35:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Great thread.....had a LnL for several years and when it runs good it's great...but seems like more and more constantly have some issue or another.
I also hand prime then run the cases through but off and on indexing seems to at times be an issue for me. I plan to follow the advise given here to see if I can correct it. |
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Posted: 6/17/2016 9:45:46 AM EDT
[#46]
I try to watch the shell plate's indexing pretty consistently. If I see that it "slips" into the detents instead of being there when the pawl finishes moving the spider gear, it's time to either a) tighten the shell plate retainer bolt (most common issue) or b) tweak the pawl - the downstroke pawl is the one that is most likely to give you problems with primer alignment.
Typically the shell plate retaining bolt gets a little bit loose and it lets the plate "float" a little bit over the sub plate. That prevents the detent balls from aligning the plate properly. I usually see this show up in the case feed not lining up straight, but if that happens, priming isn't going to be right either. I stop, tighten the bolt, and everything goes great after that. But you can't over tighten the bolt, because that will make the shell plate drag. I'm "getting ready to" get a split lock washer for this bolt. I just haven't managed to put the intention into action yet...kinda busy. 
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Posted: 6/17/2016 9:51:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: miker84]
[#47]
I measured the hole in the bottom of the ram as best I could with my digital calipers. It was .5030. The drive shaft measured .4990. For a loose fit that isn't really under load or high rpm, that still seems like the upper end of what I'd expect the tolerance to be.
Update: I bored out the hole/channel in the ram to accept a bronze sleeve. After reassembling, the pawls had to be adjusted back to the normal start position. It was pretty close to working but I could feel some resistance. I took it back apart and removed the shim that is between the index wheel and the ram base because the shaft was in a bind. Now it is as smooth as my other one and the shell plate gently clicks into place before the primer rises up. I've heard that some don't have that shim so I'm not sure I need to find a thinner one. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 7:25:48 AM EDT
[#48]
There should just be the wave spring washer (#41) on the top section of the ram, which pulls the index wheel up tight against the bottom of the ram to take that play out.
Page 5 http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manuals-current/metalic-reloading/LNL_AP.pdf After a while when the top of the index wheel/bottom of the ram starts to wear and you loose the wave washer tension pulling the index wheel up firmly against the bottom of the ram, then you add in a thin washer between the index wheel and the ram. And if the machine came with a washer to begin with, it may have been added since there was a dimension problem with the rams thickness on the bottom channel section, and it was needed to get the correct wave washer tension when the machine was being assembled to begin with. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 7:32:27 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523:
There should just be the wave spring washer (#41) on the top section of the ram, which pulls the index wheel up tight against the bottom of the ram to take that play out. Page 5 http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manuals-current/metalic-reloading/LNL_AP.pdf After a while when the top of the index wheel/bottom of the ram starts to wear and you loose the wave washer tension pulling the index wheel up firmly against the bottom of the ram, then you add in a thin washer between the index wheel and the ram. And if the machine came with a washer to begin with, it may have been added since there was a dimension problem with the rams thickness on the bottom channel section, and it was needed to get the correct wave washer tension when the machine was being assembled to begin with. It does have the wave washer. It makes sense that this could be a tolerance stack issue. No single piece out of spec, but the sum total is. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 7:57:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
Typically the shell plate retaining bolt gets a little bit loose and it lets the plate "float" a little bit over the sub plate. Yep, split lock washer will solve the shell plate bolt back off problem, but double check the drive hub height to figure out if it needed to be shimmed. When you have the sub plate off to shim (or to just clean up the mating surfaces of the drive hub to the bottom of the sub plate and grease the two) double check the fit of the sub plate to the top of the ram as well. The side Head taper draw bolts should pull the sub plate down tight to the top of the ram, and if needed, you can shim here as well. Lastly, double check the slop of the drive shaft to the ram through channel for it. If the slop is bad enough (BB in a box car), then instead of the pawn cleanly turning the index wheel on contact, it just shoves the drive shaft around in the sloppy channel to begin with instead. Also, make sure that you grease these bearing parts as well. |
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