What is with this obsession with gages? It seems like every other thread has some mention of a gauge for something. Is this the latest fad like "wet tumbling" or what.

I've been reloading since the 1980's, own over 30 sets of dies and have loaded over 140 pounds of powder for everything from plinking to competition, yet I don't own a single gauge. (Except the one I made to measure zero bullet jump.)

Yeah I know what I sound like but I just don't get it. Just seems like a new way for equipment manufacturers to make money.

AeroE, If you feel this is too much like GD go ahead and lock it. I'll understand.

Reloading is by nature an exercise in precision...that is trimming to a precise length, measuring to the fraction of a grain, seating to a certan depth, and youre asking why people use gages to verify the rounds they load?  Something a tad bit ironic about your post.   (No, there was no GD type of cynicism intended in my post)


EDIT: Spelling

General discussion response:  F**k it I'll just eyeball it.



Actual
response:  Why not take advantage of the technological advancements
available.  Reloading is an obsessive activity so much so that many will
look for any avenue available to improve the end product.  Many "fads" become the more modern accepted practice.



This thread could easily become a thread more deserving of general discussion but lets take it for what it is and discuss the benefits of the modern tools.



Your post sounds like those that cant stand fuel injection and still wants their carburetors.


 

I think the OP has a valid point....but. When I first started reloading for 45 ACP I was stoked to test out the rounds. My lightly used XD tactical shot every round, but when I tried some rounds in a custom 1911 there were occasional feed jams. One of the older reloaders at the range asked if I had used a case gauge. Well, of course not :) So the next week I picked up a mix of dillon and wilson gauges for my calibers and found that some of the shells either had a small bell remaining on the mouth or had an ejector burr from previous firing. The 1911 tolerances were much tighter than the XD, but after dropping each round through the gauge I was able to get 0 jams next time out.

For me the case gauges are an extra bit of insurance that the rounds will chamber in different firearms. On bottleneck cartridges it helps me to make sure that the shoulder setback is within specs and that I am not over or under sizing.

Now if you are talking about other gauges such as OAL, neck thickness, concentricity... Then that is just a search for precision and the gagues are tools to collect data. You can go as far down that rabbit hole as your funds and time allow :)

Well I've been reloading and casting for 30+ years,other than a set of beam scales and a pair of dial calipers recently upgraded to digital,thats about my extent of me using guages.  I'm sure all of those individuals that use all the new fangled gizmo's find a purpose for doing  so and get the results there after.  

For me I've loaded both rifles and pistol in all actions type in modern,C & R and antique versions  and haven't had any issue from day one with my loads doing what they were intended to do.   Could the use of special guages help me,it's possible but highly unlikely in the type of shooting situations I'm in and firearms  I use.  I'm neither Pro or Con on there use,I simply just don't have the need for anything other than  those I mentioned.

But the key there is you do not turn your nose up at the idea that tools have their uses.



 

Over half the threads in this forum could be avoided by the posters had they had the proper gages to set up their dies BEFORE reloading.  The "obsession" is just the more experienced reloaders pointing the less experienced towards the gages they need and should have purchased on day one, when they bought their reloading gear.

"Want and need" comes to mind.

A digital concentricity gauge comes to mind.  Did I need it?  No.  I have an older NECO gauge.  Did I like the look of the new Sinclair version?  yes.  Do I like it and use it?  Yes.

And on and on.

How far should you drive a car without a fuel gauge?



How much air would you put in your tires without a tire pressure gauge?



How would you adjust your valves and set your points without a feeler gauge? (basic motor 101 on a 54 Chevy)



Would you want your house built without a level and a square?



More INACCURATE ammunition is reloaded than any other cause because the expander button is locked down off center creating excessive case neck run out.



In Briton at one time an inch was so many kernels of corn, so many grains of barley, so many grains of wheat, etc.



I have gauges to keep my hairy knuckles from dragging on the ground, and know how long to make my spears and arrows when hunting Woolly Mammoths.



How would you make reloading dies without gauges?



How would a Doctor measure your blood pressure without a gauge and then tell you to take up a relaxing hobby like reloading?









<removed> off topic comments and pic. Please stay on topic. dryflash3

There's nothing "new-fangled" about case gages. They've been around for longer than my 48 years can account for. You've been gaging cases for as long as you've owned a caliper. Doesn't matter how you do it, just as long as it's done or your barrel chamber will likely give a "no go" on the range much to your surprise or likely embarrassment.

Another substitute for case gages are factory crimp dies, although I still case gage those rounds too. Having a three to five thousand dollar 1911 jam on a fail to gage cartridge at range just ain't an option. Neither is being embarrassed on range with a five hundred dollar Glock and I've seen both fail with poorly loaded ammunition.

Anyway, case gages aren't for everyone I guess, just respect the need others have for gages when suggested. Both forum moderators use case gages as do most of us in forum. Easy way to trouble shoot a lot of ammunition real fast. I've been seen walking around competition with an L.E. Wilson case gage in hand.

It seems strange that a machinist is asking why reloaders use gauges when the accuracy of the end product is all that matters.

I use gauges to measure uniform case wall thickness instead of using a paper clip for thinning in the web area.



I use gauges to check case neck and bullet runout and thus reloading accuracy.



Without a gauge cartridge headspace is nothing more than a WAG.



The alternative to not using gauges and proper cartridge headspace is this.............................

+1. I'd say this is one of the biggest advantages. Gauges allow new reloaders to produce quality ammo early on in their loading career. I know my rcbs case mic has paid for itself many times over. Ads a safety factor as well.

Gages.

We use gages to gauge something.

Chris

Using a case or cartridge gauge allows me to be sure that my loads will chamber consistently, that the cases are not too long or too short, and that the headspace datum point on my sized cases is consistent with my chamber, thus ensuring that the loaded rounds will be safe with a safe load.  Not an obsession, just "avoiding SWAG and supposition."

I too have reloaded for decades, and only in the last few years did I pick up case gages (never heard of them until a few years ago).  I set up my sizing dies just like everyone else:  screw them down until they contact the shell holder, then screw them in another 1/4 turn or so to cam over, as most of the manufacturers recommended.  I reloaded thousands of .223 that way, and didn't understand why I started to get case separations.

I value my Dillon chamber check gauges and my dial calipers as I value my junk.

I only reload .45 and .223.  Have never shot a reloaded .45 that has not been though my Dillon case gauge.  The .223 on the other hand only gets checked with the gauge  and a caliber about every 50 or so case's as the brass is being processed as part of my QC.  Those are the only 3 gauges I use to reload.  Many people at the range have commented about how reliable my ammo is.

all my pistol ammo goes through a Dillon case gage for quality control



It'll catch an occasional missing or upside down primer, split case, a round that just won't chamber


 

Reloader, know thy ammo.
After you figure it out, you won't use it as much, even if it's your barrel.

All very good replies.

For me reloading is making custom ammunition for the use in a specific firearm. The rifle or pistol I am working up the load for is my gauge and always has been. Sure my pistol ammo is used in various guns and have always worked fine. I did have an issue with cast bullets in a XD (seems like a common thing) but there again, if I had the pistol (which I should have but didn't) then the problem would have never made it to the range. I don't believe any gauge would have caught it either.

I suppose if you are loading for all your buddies or you have a safe full of 9mm or 45 auto pistols or what ever and have to have your ammo fit them all then sure gauge it but it seems to me the ammo your manufacturing isn't going to be any better although cheaper than the standard fodder you buy down the street.

The point made about sizing more than needed is a good one though many on here would argue that a semi auto rifle case should be fully sized and some even suggest and use small base dies.

My thoughts when writing the OP was centered around case gages or loaded ammo gauges.

The run-out gauges and such have a lot of merit. It is widely believed that the concentricity of a loaded round or the lack of has more effect on accuracy than any other single thing.

I personally have to wonder though what is the sense of having perfect concentricity when your chambered round rattles around in the chamber in the name of reliable functioning.

BTW: I think fuel injection is wonderful.

Your bucket of logic regarding case gages is leaking Motor1.

I've tried several times to respond to this thread and I keep coming up with nothing else than this - I think it's reckless to proceed in this hobby without the measuring equipment necessary to insure the proper function and safe performance of the tools you are using to reload with and the ammunition you are building.

I have never seen a single report demonstrating that runout (lack of concentricity) is a big factor in accuracy.  I think a good argument could be made that runout gages are one gage the reloader could live without*.  That is, they have no merit, at all.  

It is the cartridge and case gages and calipers that are needed by the reloader.




*  I have three but that is just because I like them as toys.  They all suck in one way or another, IMO.  NECO is the best.

Starrett depth gage that I found for a bargain at a pawn shop.    I use it for measuring primer cup below case head distance.

I've got a couple of reports from the Swiss and Austrian ammo industries, where they did controlled runout testing in a 300m underground, enviromentally regulated shooting tunnel.

High (15-20 thous T.I.R.) runout does matter, a couple of thous either way, not so much so.

Chris

20 thou runout is HUGE!  You could easily see that without a gage.  Just roll them on a flat surface (mirror, piece of glass, flat bench top,...)

Can you post links to the source of the documents, so I can get copies and read them.  If nothing else, I'd be interested to see their method of support for the case during the measurements and where on the cartidge the runout was measured.  Withpout specifying these two things, you cannot know what someone means by their runout measurements.  <–– See, I said I like to play with these things. like toys

I got a couple of pages of info when I bought my Bersin gage from a private party.  I also got some articles/reviews written by ML McPherson, who BTW, wrote the manual for the NECO concentricity gage, from Precision Reloader, or Accurate Reloader magazines, discussing runout and its effects.

Sorry, I have no links to provide, but if the documentation is to be believed, the results from 'highish' runout is not insignificant at 300m.

Chris

Even bigger difference between 300 meters and 600 meters with rifle. More so at 1000 meters.

We control the things we have the will or skill to control, leaving as little as possible to chance. It is sometimes difficult to relay why we do the things we do when loading precision. It's a mindset you are born with or aquire. We don't expect everyone in forum to aspire to higher hand loading methods. That's never been the intention of the handful who work hard to make this forum what it is.

It is our desire to show what's possible, how far an individual pushes the envelope is up to the individual. Just don't be upset when you for whatever reason are stuck on a ladder rung by your choice or aptitude while we work with those still wishing to climb the ladder.

I was new here once, still far from mastering the craft but I am a sponge and learned a ton since joining here. Along the way I've made a few associations that accelerated my learning curve. I thought runout was useless too until my son taught me different. Then with a new direction folks like Chris Garret started making sense. Not sure of Garret's history, but I can fill you in a bit on my boy. LaRue bought the footage to Ft. Bennings, 10th Annual Sniper Competition featuring 40 teams from around the world. Son and Sr. Partner names are listed three times as finishing three of the ten events first. DVD has been made available on LaRue website.


Want to know where that boy, who's now a man started ?

On my knee feeding brass to a shellplate. Trollslayer and Motor1, you might not see a need for the tedious things we post about measures and gages. Those posts, given your stated interests obviously are not for you evidently. But, this constant distraction repeatedly made in reference to or inside technical Ops are distracting and perhaps stealing from someone like the boy who used to sit in my lap feeding brass.

You guys and guys like you make it hard for a few to return what was given to us, knowledge.

I've been posting quite a bit in another forum lately. The comment was made from one of the more boisterous posters who is a regular. He just didn't see the need for single stage since he didn't like reloading all too much anyway.

My response. Then why bother hanging out in a reloading forum ?

There's all types of methods to reloading and types of shooting disciplines. It's rare when finding two people operating within the same discipline on the same level. If someone's method is a bit more tedious than mine I won't berate him for it. I either absorb what he has to say or backspace out. I know there's others in forum who have an interest in his methods.

Well, there's also the 'law of diminishing returns' to contend with and I guess that's a different 'bar' for different people?

My Bersin gage has a 4/10,000ths Swiss made dial on it and I'll allow '+ & -' 2 for my target stuff, which is just my own arbitrary number.  I've not done the testing, as I don't have the time (or the inclination) to test this parameter out to the Nth degree, others do, so good for them.

The OT is about gages and I have a decent amount that I often use.  Some I got later in the game, others I got earlier, but I have them.  

There are a couple more gages that I'd like to acquire, like another Bersin body, or two (223/308 & 338LM,) a Hornady 338LM modified case and possibly the Sinclair Concentricity gage (just to fiddle with for other measurements that the Bersin won't do,) but I'm pretty well equipped.

Chris

I'm still measuring concentricity  with the Hornady gauge which most serious rifle loaders consider to be better than nothing. After purchasing the 90 grain Harrells measure my next area of focus will be concentricity at the level Garret takes it too.

I believe there's three or four here when discussing concentric values, I listen.

I think your "reckless" statement is way off base. Guys like me and the generation before me who have been reloading for years were not being reckless. We fallowed the instructions in our manuals and learned to make custom ammo for our firearms that would constantly and safely out perform any we could buy.  

I stated in my last post that the OP was more centered around ammo gages. Anything beyond that I consider to above and beyond and to that end there is no limit. Knock yourself out. That is what custom ammo is all about.

Also. This thread title is a question and the thread has provided many answers.

I have nothing against ammo gages although it may have sounded that way but I can SAFELY load ammo for any caliber pistol or rifle without the need for a ammo gauge. The firearm I'm loading for is my gauge.

PS: I will try to find the source of the concentricity vs accuracy testing and post it. I was a disbeliever too. It seems the bullet would center itself but it don't. If it hits the rifling off center it stays off center which in turn causes it to wobble in flight.

Personally I don't do this test. My ammo for varmint hunting is sub-moa and most of my deer hunting ammo is 1 1/2 moa or less so I never dabbled into it.

Plunk test is an old school method Motor1, I'll give you that.  

Stating the use of case gage will somehow render handloads less accurate is, well wrong.

I can get 1" to 2" groups at 50 yards from my .38 super laying in prone position. Case gage when used with my straight wall pistol cartridges insures a uniform crimp.

I can also expect 1" groups at 25 yards using my .45acp cartridges fired from Ransom Rest. All having passed an L.E. Wilson case gage.

OK, You are right. I was mixing rifle and pistol methods. And then again bolt action vs semi auto rifle too have their own set of tweeks to increase accuracy.

One of the guys who replied questioned why a machinist, which I am, would be questioning the use of gauges. I guess the answer to that is the same one you get on the "build it yourself" forum if you ask " Do I need to check the headspace on my AR 15 which I built using all new parts?

The answer is "sure if you want to". But if the parts were made to spec then it should be good.

It's the same for your reloads. If you used the equipment according to the manufactures and reloading manuals instructions your ammo should fit in your gun.

BTW: If your just starting out don't use the Speer #10 manual as a reference. That RECKLESS book has no mention of ammo gauges.

If you are plunking your reloads into a barrel to see if they fit you are using that barrel as a gauge.

Agreed, and when I suggested just rolling the cartridges on a flat surface to watch for run out, the surface is a gage, too.

I think the distinction is one of commonly available gages (no purchase required), as opposed to special purpose tooling sold to the reloader (which may or may not be necessary).  At least, I thought that's the distinction the OP was getting at.

I respectfully disagree with you on that one.

The NRA for one has performed tests and here is one of their published findings as of many years ago.



My take on gauges. If I were a reloader, I'd have no need for them. I would just be replacing the spent components and hoping for the best, which is good enough.

Since I'm a handloader, I want to know my ammo is the best that it can be and gauges help me know this. I have custom chambered precision rifles, why not custom precision ammo?

Danny

How can you possibly disagree that I've never seen a report on this subject?  





Now, back to the real matter at hand.  Do you have a copy of the full report?  How do I get one?

That graphic does not appear to be a presentation of accuracy data.  It is a specification of allowables and of their runout measurements results.  
Did they spec how the cartridge was supported during the measurements and where the measurement was made?

Additionally, if one has to keep runout under 0.001" to be useful as match ammo, we better send everyone home.  I don't know many people who produce ammo that would meet those criteria.  At least, not the way I support the cartridge.


This discussion of runout seems to be off-topic.  We should take it to a different thread.  This is supposed to be about gages.

The horizontal scale is titled "EXPECTED PRECISION," which would mean "accuracy" to me, especially when certain ranges are marked with "1/4 min", "1/2 min", and so on, referring (since it says "precision") to "minutes of angle" in POI distribution...

The 2D plot is axis titled, "Axial Tilt".  One would expect (assume)  the two probability distributions are backed up with real data.

The "Expected Precision" stuff is just an overlay of their "requirements"" or "allowables" onto the plot.  To me, it does not imply it is backed up with real data.  One would hope it is but I don't see that as authotritative, especially since it is presented divorced from the report, itself.  

I am concerned about the validity, too. as their allowables are not consistent with my own observations relating runout to accuracy. However, without knowing how they supported the cartridge, where the indicator was placed, even which cartridge they are measuring, it is difficult to compare my measurements to theirs.

Still, I would like to read the report, it's a hobby of mine.  As I said, I have three different runout gages.  Do you have the full report or a link to its source?

I had that scan saved a long time, I'll see if I can pull the book it came from out of the catacombs and get the whole section for you. It was in the NRA Handloading hard back book from many moons ago.

Danny

Nice article on the 38 super by Sweeney in Oct 2012 Guns and Ammo.