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 sardo_67
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Joined: Jun 2008  CT, USA
 Posts: 2653 Feedback: 100% (34) |
Posted: 8/10/2012 10:01:56 PM
[Last Edit: 8/13/2012 2:56:55 PM by sardo_67]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT i fired them out of my 10in SBR with and without an AAC M4-2000 can as well as my friends 16in AR with BC break. i only loaded up 20 of them to test different loads, didn't have my chorno with me but all the shells looked good with no signs of damage or over pressure. now i loaded up a few up to 24.2gr but the lower 23.5gr loads worked fine and cycled both guns, should i just stick with the lower one or test more with a chrono to get a certain velocity? |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:12:47 PM
You're always going to have X amount of duds with pull down tracers.
Try using a hot stick powder with them. It is what it is. Chris |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:22:40 PM
[Last Edit: 8/10/2012 10:28:06 PM by scottedward58]
What twist barrel and what bullet weight tracers. Tracers are really long for their weight that is why they went with a 1-7 twist for the À2, M4 and SAW otherwise they wouldn't have been able to use a tracer anywhere near the weight of the 62 grain ball.
ETA: tracers are also very susceptible to moisture, they are fine in sealed cartridges but once they are pulled they start sucking up moisture like a desiccant pack. If your oven goes down really low you can put them in there for a while and dry them out but stay well below the ignition temperature of the tracer composition. |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:27:10 PM
Ditto on the fast twist required. Your "going all over the place" may be due to stabilization of bullet problem, particularly in your 10" bbl. rig.
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sardo_67
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Joined: Jun 2008 CT, USA
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Posted: 8/11/2012 12:29:47 AM
Oh, I didn't think of that. Both of ours are 1-9 barrels, I'll try some in my M4 SOCOM upper, it's legit Colt and 1-7.
I live in CT where it's rather humid now although these just came in yesterday. I'll Rey some from another place that I ordered a few months ago that look brand new, but I'm not sure if that is because they are or have been tumbled. They are 62gr. So what lights the tracer, powder, heat from barrel spin/friction or both? I will try them out again with my M4 and loaded up with the WC 844T. Also I should stick with the lowest powder charge that cycles the rifle? Or get the chrono out and go for a specific speed? |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 1:01:01 AM
really with tracers you should match their ballistics/poi as closely as possible to another bullet that you may load them in a mag with,
load em in the mag so every third round is a tracer. I dunno why you'd run an all tracer mag. the mil would run them in a mag with ss109 i believe... and ditto on the twist rate the mil also went with the 1:7 for the extra long tracer rounds specifically to stabilize them in arctic conditions I believe using a 20" barrel so a little warmer with a 16" 1:7 and they should fly right. |
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KB7DX
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Posted: 8/11/2012 10:31:07 PM
The powder lights the tracer, not rotation or speed. You may try to place some of the tracer bullets in a sealed baggy with some rice or a dessicant pack to "suck out" moisture. At least you could test the moisture theory as to why yours don't light regularly.
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Posted: 8/12/2012 10:42:40 PM
I bought a couple thousand tracers from midway a while ago. I tried WC844 and only got about 1/10 to light. I tried a second batch and put a crimp on them with a lee FCD and I went 50 for 50. As others have said you need some room for them to light, I was shooting them at about 400yds.
As I understand it the whole point of the 1/7" barrel was to stabilize the 62gr tracer round. Bullet length is what counts not weight. Try a crimp to get them to light and try a 1/7" barrel to keep them from going all over the place. |
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sardo_67
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Joined: Jun 2008 CT, USA
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Posted: 8/13/2012 2:28:02 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456506/lee-factory-crimp-die-223-remington
so i found that and am going to order it. now i would use this as the 5th station on my XL650? also when using one of these i would make sure the crimp is on the cannelured section of the bullet? this is the batch i first loaded up, they look like they aren't seated far enough into the case 
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Posted: 8/13/2012 7:36:31 PM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456506/lee-factory-crimp-die-223-remington so i found that and am going to order it. now i would use this as the 5th station on my XL650? also when using one of these i would make sure the crimp is on the cannelured section of the bullet? this is the batch i first loaded up, they look like they aren't seated far enough into the case http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/190068_10151020136118212_597096094_n.jpg Yeah, put the FCD in the last station, seat them further and put enough of a crimp on it you can't push the bullet into the case when you press the tip down on the bench. That should do it. |
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Posted: 8/13/2012 8:22:30 PM
Are those m196 or m856?
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sardo_67
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Posted: 8/13/2012 10:18:27 PM
[Last Edit: 8/13/2012 10:19:33 PM by sardo_67]
Originally Posted By Rearwardassists:
Are those m196 or m856? They are the 62gr tracers, I'm not sure of the military number for them though So I am guessing that the crimp holds the bullet in the case just a little bit longer to build heat for the tracer element to light? |
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Posted: 8/13/2012 11:59:48 PM
I have some old orange tip tracers that stick to a magnet, loaded with a near max charge of AA2200. I get about 90% lights, but they dont light up until 300 or so yards. Accuracy is on par with other machine pulled bullets I have shot.
I was doing some load development with 844 last weekend and got 2702 FPS w/ 55gr FMJ's in a 16" barrel. |
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Posted: 8/14/2012 12:18:11 AM
I'm not a reloader, but I bought a box of XM856, fired 10 of them at 200 yds in the daylight, and never could see any tracing. I don't know if it was too bright outside, or the distance was too short, or it just happened so fast, or what. Have iPhone video a buddy shot, can't tell anything in the video either.
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sardo_67
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Posted: 8/14/2012 12:37:31 AM
Originally Posted By nordberg222:
I have some old orange tip tracers that stick to a magnet, loaded with a near max charge of AA2200. I get about 90% lights, but they dont light up until 300 or so yards. Accuracy is on par with other machine pulled bullets I have shot. I was doing some load development with 844 last weekend and got 2702 FPS w/ 55gr FMJ's in a 16" barrel. what was the powder charge you used for that? i just loaded up 10 rounds with 55gr FMJ and 23.5gr of 844 to test out tomorrow. it's just plinking ammo so i would like to use the smallest powder amount i can so the 8lb kegs go further. so are these tracers like the 308 ones? don't light till 100yrds or so? last 240 shoot we had they were starting like 100yds down range all the way out to 900+ or hit the berm at 300 and then bounce around. |
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Posted: 8/14/2012 3:32:29 PM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By nordberg222:
I have some old orange tip tracers that stick to a magnet, loaded with a near max charge of AA2200. I get about 90% lights, but they dont light up until 300 or so yards. Accuracy is on par with other machine pulled bullets I have shot. I was doing some load development with 844 last weekend and got 2702 FPS w/ 55gr FMJ's in a 16" barrel. what was the powder charge you used for that? i just loaded up 10 rounds with 55gr FMJ and 23.5gr of 844 to test out tomorrow. it's just plinking ammo so i would like to use the smallest powder amount i can so the 8lb kegs go further. so are these tracers like the 308 ones? don't light till 100yrds or so? last 240 shoot we had they were starting like 100yds down range all the way out to 900+ or hit the berm at 300 and then bounce around. That would be very light in my hands. I run 26g W844, 55gr mil pull downs in mil pull down brass. Out of a 16 in 1/9 twist AR I get 3000 f/s, just about what mil spec would be. Your batch of w844 & components will not be the same but you should be able to match mil spec ammo with that powder and mil components. |
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Posted: 8/15/2012 9:33:08 AM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By nordberg222:
I have some old orange tip tracers that stick to a magnet, loaded with a near max charge of AA2200. I get about 90% lights, but they dont light up until 300 or so yards. Accuracy is on par with other machine pulled bullets I have shot. I was doing some load development with 844 last weekend and got 2702 FPS w/ 55gr FMJ's in a 16" barrel. what was the powder charge you used for that? i just loaded up 10 rounds with 55gr FMJ and 23.5gr of 844 to test out tomorrow. it's just plinking ammo so i would like to use the smallest powder amount i can so the 8lb kegs go further. so are these tracers like the 308 ones? don't light till 100yrds or so? last 240 shoot we had they were starting like 100yds down range all the way out to 900+ or hit the berm at 300 and then bounce around. That was with 24gr of 844. A co-worker was chronoing some loads at the same time and he was getting almost 100 fps less than I was with the same load. I can post my results tonight if you want to see them. |
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TxLewis
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Joined: Mar 2001 TX, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2012 10:02:50 AM
For me, I always had a much better tracer to dud ration when I used IMR 4064.
4064 lights up both 223 and 308 tracers for me. Good luck. TXL |
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Posted: 8/15/2012 11:39:24 AM
Originally Posted By TxLewis:
For me, I always had a much better tracer to dud ration when I used IMR 4064. 4064 lights up both 223 and 308 tracers for me. Good luck. TXL would hotter burning powders have a better chance of lighting tracers? or would a slower powder because of the extra time it requires to burn through the material covering the tracer compound? |
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sardo_67
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Posted: 8/17/2012 4:24:01 PM
Ok loaded up a few more with 23.5 to 25.5gr of 844 and used the crimp die. Still didn't get any to light.
I'm just going to load up all my 55gr plinking ammo and then mess with the tracers and the correct 844T powder or the other mentioned hotter powders. I bought 40 rounds of the American Eagle tracer ammo to see if those light in the 200yd range I have, tried out 4, none lit. I'm guessing that I just need a longer range. Does anyone think it would help if I made a hole in the back of the bullet so the tracer element gets exposed easier to th powder? |
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Posted: 8/17/2012 9:59:16 PM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Ok loaded up a few more with 23.5 to 25.5gr of 844 and used the crimp die. Still didn't get any to light. I'm just going to load up all my 55gr plinking ammo and then mess with the tracers and the correct 844T powder or the other mentioned hotter powders. I bought 40 rounds of the American Eagle tracer ammo to see if those light in the 200yd range I have, tried out 4, none lit. I'm guessing that I just need a longer range. Does anyone think it would help if I made a hole in the back of the bullet so the tracer element gets exposed easier to th powder? If you want to swap some bullets it may help figure out what is going wrong. I'll send you 20 or so of my tracers, using my bullets may help you figure out whats going wrong. If you want to send me some of your tracers I'll load them up using the method that's been secusful for me and see how it goes. I thought I read somewhere that poking a hole helped some people get more to light. |
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sardo_67
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Joined: Jun 2008 CT, USA
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Posted: 8/18/2012 2:00:55 AM
Originally Posted By Mblades:
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Ok loaded up a few more with 23.5 to 25.5gr of 844 and used the crimp die. Still didn't get any to light. I'm just going to load up all my 55gr plinking ammo and then mess with the tracers and the correct 844T powder or the other mentioned hotter powders. I bought 40 rounds of the American Eagle tracer ammo to see if those light in the 200yd range I have, tried out 4, none lit. I'm guessing that I just need a longer range. Does anyone think it would help if I made a hole in the back of the bullet so the tracer element gets exposed easier to th powder? If you want to swap some bullets it may help figure out what is going wrong. I'll send you 20 or so of my tracers, using my bullets may help you figure out whats going wrong. If you want to send me some of your tracers I'll load them up using the method that's been secusful for me and see how it goes. I thought I read somewhere that poking a hole helped some people get more to light. hmmm that's not a bad idea, but what range are you getting yours to light at? i am limited to 200yd max with the end of it in the shadows of trees and of the ones i shot to day none lit, the first batch a few of them were. |
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InfiniteGrim
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Posted: 8/18/2012 2:05:57 AM
[Last Edit: 8/18/2012 2:08:34 AM by InfiniteGrim]
I think the shorter barrel has something to do with the light rate. Paying close attention to this video shows a majority of mine lighting with H335 through a 16". My barrel is 1:9 and gets ok inaccuracy, but with a slower twist rate you want a higher velocity to make up for it which is why your getting poor accuracy with the SBR
Also load to the middle-top of the cannelure  |
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Posted: 8/18/2012 9:20:34 AM
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Originally Posted By Mblades:
Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Ok loaded up a few more with 23.5 to 25.5gr of 844 and used the crimp die. Still didn't get any to light. I'm just going to load up all my 55gr plinking ammo and then mess with the tracers and the correct 844T powder or the other mentioned hotter powders. I bought 40 rounds of the American Eagle tracer ammo to see if those light in the 200yd range I have, tried out 4, none lit. I'm guessing that I just need a longer range. Does anyone think it would help if I made a hole in the back of the bullet so the tracer element gets exposed easier to th powder? If you want to swap some bullets it may help figure out what is going wrong. I'll send you 20 or so of my tracers, using my bullets may help you figure out whats going wrong. If you want to send me some of your tracers I'll load them up using the method that's been secusful for me and see how it goes. I thought I read somewhere that poking a hole helped some people get more to light. hmmm that's not a bad idea, but what range are you getting yours to light at? i am limited to 200yd max with the end of it in the shadows of trees and of the ones i shot to day none lit, the first batch a few of them were. Most of the time I use them to help judge the wind when I'm shooting 500-800m and don't have someone to spot for me. I know I've shot them closer and if I recal they light somewhere in the 100y/m range. I'm going to go shooting sometime in the next couple days, I load some up, test them out at 100 & 200 and let you know what I find out. |
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sardo_67
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Posted: 8/18/2012 5:41:55 PM
i went shooting with a guy today who has a lot of MGs, and loaded up some 62gr tracers for a shoot a while back for his MM23E machine gun. he used the 844T powder and it worked for him
once all my 55gr ball ammo is done i'll mess with the tracers again. |
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Posted: 8/18/2012 8:30:35 PM
It's not easy for the shooter to see the 62 orange tipped tracer light in sunlight. It's not a bright tracer and it does take 75 or so yards for them to get bright. Often someone standing to the side of the shooter can see the tracer easier? Higher powder charges won't make a difference in the light rate. If the tracer compound is good H335 or WC844 will light them reliably. Some have mentioned taking a pin and poking a hole in the cup closure in the rear of the tracer bullet for more reliable lighting on poor condition tracers? I would try this on rounds I intend to shoot soon but wouldn't do this on tracers to be stored and I don't know if it would make a difference. Only a small pin hole thru the cup and not deep into the primer compound.
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