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Willz
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Posted: 5/31/2012 6:03:58 PM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2012 6:12:34 PM by Willz]
Would someone please share their .308 Win Load data for the Hornady 208 gr A-Max? I'm looking for the Re 15 recipe specifically.
I'm guessing it's in the 8th edition.
I have the 7th but this bullet and loading is not listed.
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ArmyOrdGuy
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Posted: 5/31/2012 6:15:04 PM
That's for a bolt rifle, right?
Willz
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Posted: 5/31/2012 6:28:03 PM
Originally Posted By ArmyOrdGuy:
That's for a bolt rifle, right?


Yes

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ChrisGarrett
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Posted: 5/31/2012 9:04:57 PM
Originally Posted By Willz:
Would someone please share their .308 Win Load data for the Hornady 208 gr A-Max? I'm looking for the Re 15 recipe specifically.
I'm guessing it's in the 8th edition.
I have the 7th but this bullet and loading is not listed.


Reloder 15 is probably a bit too fast for the 208gr AMAX in a .308Win case, so that's why you don't see much published data for that combo.

If you must shoot 208 AMAX in a .308, Reloder 17 is the 'go to' powder for that bullet/cartridge combo.

Chris

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Posted: 5/31/2012 9:44:05 PM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2012 9:49:42 PM by 1911smith]
At mag length IMR-4064 is the best load. All my manuals are packed away for move to another house or I'd look. Same with notes and rifle handloads.

Reloder 15 will work but not as good as IMR-4064.

Reloder 17 is the powder to load under 208 A-Max if loading out close or tad over 3".

You will be fine using 17 for short range. Long range case capacity at mag length will be an issue.

I sat across dinner table last Saturday night from ATK's manager for shooting promotions/commercial products and all things related. Dick Quisenberry is supposed to be in touch on this issue. Last year I was working same issue with zero support from Hornady or ATK. Call it a proprietary clash of commercial interests.

My final solution was to ditch R17/208 combo and start a .300 Win-Mag.

ATK rep clearly didn't care much to discuss Hornady bullets and ATK powder.
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ChrisGarrett
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Posted: 6/1/2012 12:59:40 AM
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
At mag length IMR-4064 is the best load. All my manuals are packed away for move to another house or I'd look. Same with notes and rifle handloads.

Reloder 15 will work but not as good as IMR-4064.

Reloder 17 is the powder to load under 208 A-Max if loading out close or tad over 3".

You will be fine using 17 for short range. Long range case capacity at mag length will be an issue.

I sat across dinner table last Saturday night from ATK's manager for shooting promotions/commercial products and all things related. Dick Quisenberry is supposed to be in touch on this issue. Last year I was working same issue with zero support from Hornady or ATK. Call it a proprietary clash of commercial interests.

My final solution was to ditch R17/208 combo and start a .300 Win-Mag.

ATK rep clearly didn't care much to discuss Hornady bullets and ATK powder.


Interesting story.

Those ~210gr bullets are a bit heavy for most powders in the 308 case. You can get them to shoot, but that 208gr AMAX is a really long bullet and probably needs a 1:10" twist for starters. As you mentioned, you'll want to load them long if one's mag will handle the longer COAL, or just single feed them for fun. Longer seated bullets gives a reloader a bit more room in the case to handle the higher charges.

Many guys that I've read, who get the 208gr AMAX to shoot from a 308 are mostly doing it at higher altitudes, where the air is thinner. They are approaching 50grs of propellant, if memory serves, but 47-49grs seems to be where most of the better results, fall.

RL-17...the miracle powder for stuff like the 260 Rem, can yield a bit more velocity out of the 208 to get it to stabilize, so that's where my suggestion is coming from. Something like 2450-2550 fps, which necessitates having a 24"-26" tube, will all be part of the equation.

In the 30'06, or 300WM, the sky's the limit.

Chris

Willz
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Posted: 6/1/2012 3:17:17 AM
[Last Edit: 6/1/2012 5:32:51 AM by Willz]
This is exactly why I'm asking, I do not have the Hornady 8th edition but I've read there are Re 15 loads for the 208gr A-Max , but I've yet to see any specifics.

I've seen the Re17 loads on Snipers Hide but I'd like some "published" data not wildcatting at this point having never used this bullet, yet.
:rifle to be used Rem 700 SPS Tactical 20" barrel not the newer AAC 1:10 but the 1: 12
So it sounds like I might have issues stabilizing the 208. Once again my need for real data.
Of course I won't know if my barrel will stabilize them until I actually try them.
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robpiat
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Posted: 6/1/2012 1:59:07 PM
Originally Posted By Willz:
This is exactly why I'm asking, I do not have the Hornady 8th edition but I've read there are Re 15 loads for the 208gr A-Max , but I've yet to see any specifics.

I've seen the Re17 loads on Snipers Hide but I'd like some "published" data not wildcatting at this point having never used this bullet, yet.
:rifle to be used Rem 700 SPS Tactical 20" barrel not the newer AAC 1:10 but the 1: 12
So it sounds like I might have issues stabilizing the 208. Once again my need for real data.
Of course I won't know if my barrel will stabilize them until I actually try them.


There won't be published data anytime soon but there 100s of people over on Snipers hide including me that have had good results. I am getting 2550 out of a 22" 1:10 broughton barrel on a Savage 10FP.

Just try it and see how it goes. Its not rocket surgery and you aren't inventing something. I'd start around 40 Grains and work up from there. In my Lapua brass, pressure signs started showing up slowly around 45.5 IIRC
Willz
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Posted: 6/1/2012 4:08:54 PM
I spoke to Hornady today.
Yes there is .308 Win 208 grain A-Max load data in the Hornady 8th edition handbook.
I guess I'll be ordering it.
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ChrisGarrett
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Posted: 6/1/2012 5:44:33 PM
Originally Posted By Willz:
I spoke to Hornady today.
Yes there is .308 Win 208 grain A-Max load data in the Hornady 8th edition handbook.
I guess I'll be ordering it.


I just checked my Sierra V, they only go up to their 200gr bullets, for the 308 and RL-15.

34.4grs to 39.2grs of RL-15. For a slightly heavier bullet, you'd want to start a tad lower.

Personally, I'd ditch RL-15 with the 208 AMAX, but what do I know? I have 2# of RL-17 and 400 208gr AMAX, but I haven't fiddled with them yet.

As I said, RL-17 is where it's at and you can reread the threads on SnipersHide.

What works with the firearm that one guide uses, might not always work with your particular weapon, anyhow.

That's why they're referred to only as 'guides'.

Good luck.

Chris

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Posted: 6/1/2012 6:18:52 PM
[Last Edit: 6/1/2012 7:05:58 PM by 1911smith]
Chris,

Both barrels tested have been 10 twist. Both over 20". I've got enough experience with 208 A-Max to know R17 at maglength is not enough case capacity for long range use. My son is what you might call a precision rifleman. He was loading them to 2.95.

I'm of a mind if cartridge won't fit magazine it's not practical use.

I've gone through Snipers Hide data and nowhere could I find maglength data.

My home range is 600 yards. When visiting my son we use Liberty Hill range, north of Austin. There is where we put 208s to the test out to 1000 meters. Loading long results were excellent out to 800 meters. From 800 & beyond required a lot of skill reading wind and some luck.

I had an opportunity to visit with Sierra last week. I've got just under a thousand 208s stashed at home. Have sub-moa results at 600 yards using 4064. Am saving remainder of 208s for 300 Win Mag. Going with 155 Palma for .308 per Sierra's suggestion.


P.S. My IMR-4064 data came from Hornady 8th edition. Hornady says 4064 is the best powder THEY, Hornady tested. I asked about R17 & made reference to Snipers Hide data only to be circled back to Hornady test data.
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Willz
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Posted: 6/2/2012 4:00:43 AM
[Last Edit: 6/2/2012 4:21:23 AM by Willz]
I just ordered the Hornady 8th handbook.

My intent is to use the 208 to shoot F-class at my local club out to 1000 yards with my .308 Win Rem 700 SPS Tactical.
I realize the 208 in .308 Win is an attempt to squeeze as much distance and accuracy out of the .308 Win as possible.
If I had a .308 WSM or .30-06 or any other pumped up .308 I'd use that, but the 208 A-Max info has intrigued me.

All that being said I may need to order some Re17

I'll post my data as I shoot'em up.
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Willz
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Posted: 6/6/2012 5:28:38 PM
Ok I received the 8th edition today.

It lists the 208 gr A-Max with RL-15 as follows:

COL: 2.800"
RL-15: 38.2 gr––43.2 gr MAX
2100fps––2400fps

I understand that the RL-17 loads are an effort to keep the 208 gr A-Max super sonic out to 1000 yards.
I'm curious to know how far the RL-15 loading will keep the 208gr A-Max super sonic.
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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:08:44 PM
I'm sorry. Reloder15 is the wrong powder.

I'm basing that on a bit more than opinion. I'm anxious for range report and I hope you're right and me wrong cause I got a metric shit ton of R15 needs using up.

Be neat to see R15 data next to IMR-4064 data. Last lot pushed 2500 fps using 8th edition data.

Had called Hornady before selecting 4064. We had a long discussion and had an even longer discussion with Hodgdons.
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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:14:13 PM
Originally Posted By Willz:
Ok I received the 8th edition today.

It lists the 208 gr A-Max with RL-15 as follows:

COL: 2.800"
RL-15: 38.2 gr––43.2 gr MAX
2100fps––2400fps

I understand that the RL-17 loads are an effort to keep the 208 gr A-Max super sonic out to 1000 yards.
I'm curious to know how far the RL-15 loading will keep the 208gr A-Max super sonic.


There are tons of published loads in mauals that might 'work', but don't shoot well.

2100-2400 fps is a waste, IMO.

Just buy some 155 Scenars and get them up to 2900-2950 fps if you can.

Go to JBM.com and plug the numbers into their great program and crunch the numbers.

Don't forget, with a 208gr bullet, you're going to have much more perceived recoil, so if you can't get them up to a speed that works for you and your calculations, you're just spinning your wheels.

Remember, the barrel used in their testing, isn't the one that you'll be using.

As I said above, if you're not going to seek out RL-17, don't bother with the 208 AMAX in a 308 case, unless you shoot at 6000'-10,000' ASL.

Chris

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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:25:48 PM
I wanted Hornady's published data for RL15 because I have quite a bit on hand, it's been a great powder for my 77gr. .223 loads and my 178gr .308 loads.

I'm not dodging the RL17 or saying I'm not interested in trying the RL17 loads but from what I've read on Sniper's Hide, the guy who seems to be doing phenomenal things with the 208 gr and RL17 is using an overbore chamber to allow him to seat out to 3.00" .

I just want to see what my rifle will do with the RL15 data and if ANYONE had tried the RL15 loads.

Apparently not.
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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:46:37 PM
Originally Posted By Willz:
I wanted Hornady's published data for RL15 because I have quite a bit on hand, it's been a great powder for my 77gr. .223 loads and my 178gr .308 loads.

I'm not dodging the RL17 or saying I'm not interested in trying the RL17 loads but from what I've read on Sniper's Hide, the guy who seems to be doing phenomenal things with the 208 gr and RL17 is using an overbore chamber to allow him to seat out to 3.00" .

I just want to see what my rifle will do with the RL15 data and if ANYONE had tried the RL15 loads.

Apparently not.


I have a bunch of RL-15 on hand, as well as a bunch of nice bullets.

I don't consider RL-15 an appropriate powder for shooting the 208 AMAX out of a 308 Win based rifle, even if your rifle has a 28" barrel.

We're trying to help you here. There's a reason why RL-15 isn't an appropriate powder for that bullet.

Because Hornady can get the 208s to exit their test barrel, doesn't mean it's the best choice for that bullet.

You seem to take the position, that because you have X amount of RL-15, you're going to make it work.

Hey, more power to you, but I and 1911 are trying to save you some money, as those bullets are probably costing you between $40-$50 for a box of 100.

Heck, we can get a fast pistol powder to work in rifles, if we spend enough time experimenting, but that's not part of the bigger picture.

Quit being obstinate and go locate some RL-17 and buy it if you must shoot your 208s out of a 308 Win rifle.

Save the RL-15 for your 150s-185gr bullets and move on.

We're only here to help. If you choose to waste your resources on some combo, it's no skin off of our backs.

Chris

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Posted: 6/6/2012 8:00:46 PM
[Last Edit: 6/6/2012 8:06:27 PM by 1911smith]
Hornady 8th edition has both R15 data and IMR-4064 data. Hornady lists IMR-4064 as best. I visited with Hornady as I always do when working loads for Hornady bullets.

My first successes in rifle was R15 in .223, like you. Later when I bought my first .308 (new to me rifle) I had phenominal success with R15 & 180 grain Sierra bthp bullets. It was a tackdriver combination inside 100 yards. The two I was shootin with didn't like my groups with a first guess load and stock Win 70 rifle. So out to 600 yard range we go. These two are dialing scopes back and forth from 100 to 600 & everything in between while making plates ring with every shot.

That experience took me to SMK 190 grain and IMR-4064. Works good out to 750 meters then math starts to be more than I'm trained for.

All the above brought me to IMR-4064 & 208 A-MAX. This is a good load for long range but still falls off terribly after 800 meters. At 600, submoa is very doable.

What can be said. You gotta a lot of powder, lotta bullets. Look forward for update.

btw, my barrel is 1/10 @ just short of 27".
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Posted: 6/6/2012 8:11:00 PM
Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
Originally Posted By Willz:
I wanted Hornady's published data for RL15 because I have quite a bit on hand, it's been a great powder for my 77gr. .223 loads and my 178gr .308 loads.

I'm not dodging the RL17 or saying I'm not interested in trying the RL17 loads but from what I've read on Sniper's Hide, the guy who seems to be doing phenomenal things with the 208 gr and RL17 is using an overbore chamber to allow him to seat out to 3.00" .

I just want to see what my rifle will do with the RL15 data and if ANYONE had tried the RL15 loads.

Apparently not.


I have a bunch of RL-15 on hand, as well as a bunch of nice bullets.

I don't consider RL-15 an appropriate powder for shooting the 208 AMAX out of a 308 Win based rifle, even if your rifle has a 28" barrel.

We're trying to help you here. There's a reason why RL-15 isn't an appropriate powder for that bullet.

Because Hornady can get the 208s to exit their test barrel, doesn't mean it's the best choice for that bullet.

You seem to take the position, that because you have X amount of RL-15, you're going to make it work.

Hey, more power to you, but I and 1911 are trying to save you some money, as those bullets are probably costing you between $40-$50 for a box of 100.

Heck, we can get a fast pistol powder to work in rifles, if we spend enough time experimenting, but that's not part of the bigger picture.

Quit being obstinate and go locate some RL-17 and buy it if you must shoot your 208s out of a 308 Win rifle.

Save the RL-15 for your 150s-185gr bullets and move on.

We're only here to help. If you choose to waste your resources on some combo, it's no skin off of our backs.

Chris



First of all, I appreciate your considerable efforts to help someone as obstinate as myself.

Secondly do you have ANY RL17 load data to contribute? COL?

I'm sure I'd appreciate that too.

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Willz
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Posted: 6/6/2012 8:41:15 PM
[Last Edit: 6/6/2012 8:43:40 PM by Willz]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Hornady 8th edition has both R15 data and IMR-4064 data. Hornady lists IMR-4064 as best. I visited with Hornady as I always do when working loads for Hornady bullets.

My first successes in rifle was R15 in .223, like you. Later when I bought my first .308 (new to me rifle) I had phenominal success with R15 & 180 grain Sierra bthp bullets. It was a tackdriver combination inside 100 yards. The two I was shootin with didn't like my groups with a first guess load and stock Win 70 rifle. So out to 600 yard range we go. These two are dialing scopes back and forth from 100 to 600 & everything in between while making plates ring with every shot.

That experience took me to SMK 190 grain and IMR-4064. Works good out to 750 meters then math starts to be more than I'm trained for.

All the above brought me to IMR-4064 & 208 A-MAX. This is a good load for long range but still falls off terribly after 800 meters. At 600, submoa is very doable.

What can be said. You gotta a lot of powder, lotta bullets. Look forward for update.

btw, my barrel is 1/10 @ just short of 27".


Thanks, 1911smith I have IMR-4064 on hand as well.

The guy on Sniper's Hide was claiming be able to stuff 50 gr. of RL17 in a .308 case using 3.00" COL and "roomy" Winchester brass and his fat chamber.

I'm highly sceptical of his claims. eta He claims no pressure signs as well.
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Posted: 6/6/2012 11:25:33 PM
[Last Edit: 6/6/2012 11:33:09 PM by Trollslayer]
I used to use H4831 for the 210 Sierras and Bergers.

Here's one load I tested. It had stout recoil but inadequate velocity to make it worthwhile.

Berger 210 VLD (moly coated?)
46.3 gr H 4831
F210M primer
Winch case
sample = 9 rounds
MV avg = 2167 fps <–––– that's very slow
SD = 11.9
ES = 43.3


In the end, I found the 190 SMK to be a better bullet. Many say the 175 SMK is a bit better than the 190, too. The 308 case just does not have what is required (more case capacity) for the super-heavy bullets. Save those for the 30-06 or 300 WM.
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Posted: 6/7/2012 12:17:46 AM
Originally Posted By Willz:

:rifle to be used Rem 700 SPS Tactical 20" barrel not the newer AAC 1:10 but the 1: 12
So it sounds like I might have issues stabilizing the 208. Once again my need for real data.
Of course I won't know if my barrel will stabilize them until I actually try them.


What twist barrel do they use in the hornady 8? Your 1:12 sounds marginal for a 208 AMAX. I wouldn't blow money on more than 1 box until you know if they'll stabilize. You are going to want better than 2400 fps to take advantage of the 208 anyway.
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Posted: 6/7/2012 6:41:01 AM
Originally Posted By Willz:
Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
Originally Posted By Willz:
I wanted Hornady's published data for RL15 because I have quite a bit on hand, it's been a great powder for my 77gr. .223 loads and my 178gr .308 loads.

I'm not dodging the RL17 or saying I'm not interested in trying the RL17 loads but from what I've read on Sniper's Hide, the guy who seems to be doing phenomenal things with the 208 gr and RL17 is using an overbore chamber to allow him to seat out to 3.00" .

I just want to see what my rifle will do with the RL15 data and if ANYONE had tried the RL15 loads.

Apparently not.


I have a bunch of RL-15 on hand, as well as a bunch of nice bullets.

I don't consider RL-15 an appropriate powder for shooting the 208 AMAX out of a 308 Win based rifle, even if your rifle has a 28" barrel.

We're trying to help you here. There's a reason why RL-15 isn't an appropriate powder for that bullet.

Because Hornady can get the 208s to exit their test barrel, doesn't mean it's the best choice for that bullet.

You seem to take the position, that because you have X amount of RL-15, you're going to make it work.

Hey, more power to you, but I and 1911 are trying to save you some money, as those bullets are probably costing you between $40-$50 for a box of 100.

Heck, we can get a fast pistol powder to work in rifles, if we spend enough time experimenting, but that's not part of the bigger picture.

Quit being obstinate and go locate some RL-17 and buy it if you must shoot your 208s out of a 308 Win rifle.

Save the RL-15 for your 150s-185gr bullets and move on.

We're only here to help. If you choose to waste your resources on some combo, it's no skin off of our backs.

Chris



First of all, I appreciate your considerable efforts to help someone as obstinate as myself.

Secondly do you have ANY RL17 load data to contribute? COL?

I'm sure I'd appreciate that too.



You have a 1:12" twisted barrel. Like the other guy said, you're probably barking up the wrong tree with the ultra long 208 AMAX. Forget about seating them to magazine length, so figure on loading out as far as you can go with your particular chamber and single feeding them.

I'm going to start at 45grs and work from there. If I have to single feed them to get some data, that's fine by me, as these are just an experiment on 'velocity' and 'stabilization'––nothing more.

I can get the 155s up to 2925-2950, so for 1k yds, I'm not hurting, but I also shoot a 26" tube with a 1:10" twist, so I'm OK on that front.

It does seem that people can get 48gr-50gr of RL-17 in a 308 case when seating the bullet out long, which is high for sure, but in my limited research, it's probably just a high density propellant, so it's heavy for any given volume.

Anyhow, I'm sounding like a wet blanket, so I'll leave you to your own device and let you tell us how things go.

Remember, it's always the pioneers who take the first arrows.

Chris