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Posted: 5/7/2012 7:38:10 PM
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT -mixed brass, but mostly Federal or Winchester -Winchester small pistol primers -Rainier Ballistics 9mm 124 gr Flat Point projectiles -4.1 gr of Titegroup -Speer says 1.120" COAL, I just measured my control cartridge and it measured 1.118" -crimp is .373 (That is what I measured factory Federal 9mm rounds at, but is there a better way to know what it should be?) So, when I was at the range, I was shooting some lead rounds that I loaded so I had my Lone Wolf barrel in. Well, I loaded some jacketed rounds with the above specs, but they did not fully chamber in my Lone Wolf barrel. I tested them in my S&W M&P9, so I loaded them in my M&P9 and they went and shot fine. So, then I put my factory Glcok barrel in and loaded the rounds again and they loaded fine. So, I am wondering what is going on? Can anyone tell me? Also, please let me know where I can get the proper crimp info. thanks for your help guys. |
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Posted: 5/7/2012 7:54:41 PM
Drop a sized case (case only) into the barrel if it drops in fine and drops out fine the problem is the oal or the crimp.
If it doesnt drop in nice and drop out easily you need to size it a little more. More than likely its the oal. I doubt the crimp is causing the problem Different barrels sometimes have tighter chambers. If you load them to fit that barrel they will probably work in all the barrels. |
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Posted: 5/7/2012 8:13:03 PM
[Last Edit: 5/7/2012 8:18:49 PM by goldeneye]
Originally Posted By AKABARON:
Drop a sized case (case only) into the barrel if it drops in fine and drops out fine the problem is the oal or the crimp. If it doesnt drop in nice and drop out easily you need to size it a little more. More than likely its the oal. I doubt the crimp is causing the problem Different barrels sometimes have tighter chambers. If you load them to fit that barrel they will probably work in all the barrels. I think the problem is the OAL as well so I need to load it shorter then right? My concern is that doing so will increase the pressure, so I won't know whereto start with how much powder to drop. Any thoughts? ETA: Just checked and a sized case does fall in and out easily. |
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Posted: 5/7/2012 8:20:44 PM
Drop it in the Wolf barrel by hand and see if it chambers. If not find out where it's rubbing against the chamber. Also, the .373 crimp might be a bit too tight for a plated bullet. I'm loading jacketed bullets, and mine is around .377 to .378. Semi auto pistol rounds generally do not need to be crimped. You're just straightening out the flare you put on the case to seat the bullet. But like he said, I don't think it has anything to do with the crimp. Most likely the OAL of the cartridge, or the ogive of the bullet.
If you do shorten the OAL to chamber, be sure to back off the powder, and rebuild your load data. A chrono definitely helps in this regard. The quick and easy way I do, to determine the overall crimp, is to load a couple of dummy rounds, pull the bullets and see how much of a mark it leaves on the bullet from the case mouth. The bullet should not be deformed/pinched, and no deep crimp mark around the waist. Once I find a setting I'm comfortable with, I then do the thumb push test against the table to check for bullet set back, and if none is present, then I load up a magazine, fire three shots, check the OAL of the remaining rounds in the magazine, fire three more, check OAL again, and so on. GlockMonk |
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Posted: 5/7/2012 8:43:02 PM
Originally Posted By GlockMonk:
Drop it in the Wolf barrel by hand and see if it chambers. If not find out where it's rubbing against the chamber. Also, the .373 crimp might be a bit too tight for a plated bullet. I'm loading jacketed bullets, and mine is around .377 to .378. Semi auto pistol rounds generally do not need to be crimped. You're just straightening out the flare you put on the case to seat the bullet. But like he said, I don't think it has anything to do with the crimp. Most likely the OAL of the cartridge, or the ogive of the bullet. If you do shorten the OAL to chamber, be sure to back off the powder, and rebuild your load data. A chrono definitely helps in this regard. The quick and easy way I do, to determine the overall crimp, is to load a couple of dummy rounds, pull the bullets and see how much of a mark it leaves on the bullet from the case mouth. The bullet should not be deformed/pinched, and no deep crimp mark around the waist. Once I find a setting I'm comfortable with, I then do the thumb push test against the table to check for bullet set back, and if none is present, then I load up a magazine, fire three shots, check the OAL of the remaining rounds in the magazine, fire three more, check OAL again, and so on. GlockMonk Do you have a recommendation on where to start with the powder. The reason I am asking is because I was putting 4 gr in, which is what Speer says to start with initially, so should I go down to 3.9 or 3.8? |
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Posted: 5/7/2012 9:03:28 PM
Lone wolf barrels have tight dimensions. I have seen three and none will chamber cast lead bullets that were properly made. KKM barrels will no problem. LW is well aware of this and will fix it for $30 plus shipping.
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Posted: 5/7/2012 9:08:19 PM
Originally Posted By reelserious:
Lone wolf barrels have tight dimensions. I have seen three and none will chamber cast lead bullets that were properly made. KKM barrels will no problem. LW is well aware of this and will fix it for $30 plus shipping. Is it just a polishing issue? My LW barrel chambers every other 9mm round I have shot, which is why I thought it was my reloads. |
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Posted: 5/7/2012 9:49:38 PM
Do you have a recommendation on where to start with the powder. The reason I am asking is because I was putting 4 gr in, which is what Speer says to start with initially, so should I go down to 3.9 or 3.8? Never go below the minimum, and never above the maximum. I usually start with mid range to high mid range. GlockMonk |
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Posted: 5/8/2012 12:02:52 AM
if you are using a FP bullet, then i would say that the OAL is too long for the LW barrel. LW barrel are notorious for short throats. make a dummy round and keep shortening it till it drops in and out of the LW barrel cleanly.
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Posted: 5/8/2012 12:30:39 AM
Originally Posted By Wash-Ar15: if you are using a FP bullet, then i would say that the OAL is too long for the LW barrel. LW barrel are notorious for short throats. make a dummy round and keep shortening it till it drops in and out of the LW barrel cleanly. This. |
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Posted: 5/8/2012 6:38:48 AM
Originally Posted By TimpAR:
Originally Posted By Wash-Ar15:
if you are using a FP bullet, then i would say that the OAL is too long for the LW barrel. LW barrel are notorious for short throats. make a dummy round and keep shortening it till it drops in and out of the LW barrel cleanly. This. Yep. The throats or leade in the Lone Wolf barrels is very short. You have to be careful that the full diameter portion of the bullet doesn't extend too far past the case or it will hit the rifling before fully chambering. |
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Posted: 5/8/2012 7:01:30 AM
[Last Edit: 5/8/2012 7:01:59 AM by reelserious]
Originally Posted By Wash-Ar15:
if you are using a FP bullet, then i would say that the OAL is too long for the LW barrel. LW barrel are notorious for short throats. make a dummy round and keep shortening it till it drops in and out of the LW barrel cleanly. this nail on the head don't get a lone crap barrel if you plan on shooting cast lead. trust me. |
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Posted: 5/8/2012 7:05:45 AM
Originally Posted By reelserious: Lone wolf barrels have tight dimensions. I have seen three and none will chamber cast lead bullets that were properly made. KKM barrels will no problem. LW is well aware of this and will fix it for $30 plus shipping. why I went with KKM barrels for my Glocks for lead shooting, plus they look cool, I love the satin finish on the KKM bbls and they don't have that stupid cartoon wolf on it |
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Posted: 5/8/2012 8:08:53 AM
I just happen to do a little pistol work. I don't want to go back through well intentioned posts to pull good information or terms from bad. All made at least one good point.
I run into this a lot. Barrel chambers manufactured close to minimum SAAMI spec. One way or another both LW and KKM are gonna catch hell from someone not happy. Most of their customers prefer match chambers for one reason. Accuracy. I sold a G34 while back with both factory and KKM barrel. What fit in Glock barrel didn't fit in KKM barrel. So custom hand loads were made for each barrel. Could've reamed barrel except accuracy was the cat I was hunting. Tune barrel for cartrage or tune cartrage for barrel. My suggestion ? Do one or the other, either way chronograph as you adjust powder and/or oal. What might work for KKM barrel maybe warm for Glock barrel. Answering your question ? Yes, back oal down |
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Posted: 5/8/2012 11:13:25 AM
[Last Edit: 5/8/2012 11:13:56 AM by reelserious]
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
I just happen to do a little pistol work. I don't want to go back through well intentioned posts to pull good information or terms from bad. All made at least one good point. I run into this a lot. Barrel chambers manufactured close to minimum SAAMI spec. One way or another both LW and KKM are gonna catch hell from someone not happy. Most of their customers prefer match chambers for one reason. Accuracy. I sold a G34 while back with both factory and KKM barrel. What fit in Glock barrel didn't fit in KKM barrel. So custom hand loads were made for each barrel. Could've reamed barrel except accuracy was the cat I was hunting. Tune barrel for cartrage or tune cartrage for barrel. My suggestion ? Do one or the other, either way chronograph as you adjust powder and/or oal. What might work for KKM barrel maybe warm for Glock barrel. Answering your question ? Yes, back oal down good answers, however seating a 9mm deeper drastically increases pressure.
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Posted: 5/8/2012 6:31:04 PM
[Last Edit: 5/8/2012 6:32:51 PM by 1911smith]
This is why we rework loads. OAL is most often determind by feed channels. Example being differences in barrels used by manufactuers. If pressure concerns determined oal, don't you think there would be more conformity in barrel chambers ?
Feedability comes before all other concerns. If weapon is tolerance stacked by oal, how can pressure be of concern ? 1.20 is too long in this case. Am suspect 1.10 is where he needs to be. 1.10 is nothing out of the ordinary for 115 grain, 9mm. Think of it this way. Stay higher than 1/32nd of an inch from ogive base to top of case mouth. That's your watermark. Right now I'm behind schedule on .38 super load development. Am using 121 grain, Hornady hap bullet. Powder will be N320 or 3N37. Have no idea what oal will be. It's not important what Hornady lists for oal. Not looked it up, doesn't matter because Hornady didn't test with gunsmith fit barrel. Chamber has been reamed to minimumum SAAMI spec. Now its up to me to develop an accurate, feedable, safe cartrage. Will work my oal, start charge weight at basement and develop a load that stays below max listed velocity. In my case I will measure by where empty cases fall while watching velocity on chronograph. This stuff doesn't come wrapped up all neat in a package if desiring maximum performance from your weapon. I'm not refering to max velocity either. Most all my loads fall below max published velocities. |
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Posted: 5/8/2012 8:07:08 PM
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
. Right now I'm behind schedule on .38 super load development. Am using 121 grain, Hornady hap bullet. Powder will be N320 or 3N37. Have no idea what oal will be. It's not important what Hornady lists for oal. Not looked it up, doesn't matter because Hornady didn't test with gunsmith fit barrel. Chamber has been reamed to minimumum SAAMI spec. Now its up to me to develop an accurate, feedable, safe cartrage. Will work my oal, start charge weight at basement and develop a load that stays below max listed velocity. In my case I will measure by where empty cases fall while watching velocity on chronograph. I ran a lot of 3N37 with 124 ball and some Gold Sabers.. I think I was at 8.2 or 8.3gr to make USPSA major of 165PF.. Might give you a rough where to start idea maybe.. |
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