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Posted: 3/11/2012 2:47:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2012 2:48:49 PM EST by BIGGDAWG]
I got out to the range today to test out cfe223 and i think i am going to really like this powder.

it was very consistent over the full ladder with very nice groups.

i went up to 27.8 with the 55's with no pressure signs what so ever so i plan to go back and run up to 28.5 and see how they do

With the 52smk i went to 28.5 again with no pressure signs.

i shot some 69smk's also but wasn't happy at all with the groups. my gun just don't like the 69's i have tried several powders and can't get much better than 1-1.5 groups at 100yds

28.5gn CFE 223 52gn smk
1)2917
2)3039
3)2917
4)2930
5)2938

High:3039
Low:2917
E.S.:122
Ave.:2948.2
S.D.:46.1

27.8gn CFE 223 55 horn sp
1)2904
2)2942
3)2911
4)2914
5)2935

High:2942
Low:2904
E.S.:38
Ave.:2921.2
S.D.:14.7



here are the load specifics

60 degrees overcast with 8-15mph winds at 4-6 o'clock

rifle lmt cqb mrp 16" 1/7 twist 8-26x50 scope

shot from caldwel led sled with 50lbs of lead ballast

1 fire lc 10 cases
rem 7 1/2 primers
light crimp with lee fcd
hornady 55gn sp with canalure an 52gn sierra match kings



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Posted: 3/11/2012 3:53:02 PM EST
Good deal man. Where did you find the CFE223? and how much? (if you dont mind) my loacal guy still has not got any yet. from what i read and heard about this powder after 64 grains of bullet weight the powder doesnt do so well. It looks like you had some decent shooting with the hornady bullets. the match kings not so much. how does this gun shoot with other ammo. how was the flash? were the cases clean? is it very differet than BLC-2? have you noticed any of the benifits of the CFE?
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Posted: 3/11/2012 3:55:55 PM EST
also what was the velocity work up like? i mean if you add half a grain what was the velocity gain? when does the velocity gain taper off? wondering because # gun is killing my varget stash and i would love the CFE to work as it proposed.
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Posted: 3/11/2012 4:28:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By black_m4:
Good deal man. Where did you find the CFE223? and how much? (if you dont mind) my loacal guy still has not got any yet. from what i read and heard about this powder after 64 grains of bullet weight the powder doesnt do so well. It looks like you had some decent shooting with the hornady bullets. the match kings not so much. how does this gun shoot with other ammo. how was the flash? were the cases clean? is it very differet than BLC-2? have you noticed any of the benifits of the CFE?


how does the gun shoot well with the same bullet i have it shooting pretty consistent .8 5 shot groups at 100 and down to .5 sometimes.




i have been using benchmark and h335 with good results along with re15. with this powder as you could see the groups all stayed pretty good for first rounds out. i jerked a few.



as far as work up here is the complete data


26.3gn CFE 223 55 horn sp
1)2670
2)2702
3)2720
4)2694
5)2625

High:2720
Low:2625
E.S.:95
Ave.:2682.2
S.D.:32.8


26.6gn CFE 223 55 horn sp
1)2717
2)2741
3)2735
4)2711
5)2715

High:2741
Low:2711
E.S.:30
Ave.:2723.8
S.D.:11.9


26.9gn CFE 223 55 horn sp
1)2767
2)2753
3)2771
4)2765
5)2725

High:2771
Low:2725
E.S.:46
Ave.:2756.2
S.D.:16.7


27.2gn CFE 223 55 horn sp
1)2798
2)2825
3)2823
4)2847
5)2824

High:2847
Low:2798
E.S.:49
Ave.:2823.4
S.D.:15.5


27.5gn CFE 223 55 horn sp
1)2864
2)2888
3)2824
4)2954
5)2866

High:2954
Low:2824
E.S.:130
Ave.:2879.2
S.D.:42.7


27.8gn CFE 223 55 horn sp
1)2904
2)2942
3)2911
4)2914
5)2935

High:2942
Low:2904
E.S.:38
Ave.:2921.2
S.D.:14.7


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Posted: 3/11/2012 4:30:35 PM EST
here is the full 52 smk data i am going to go up to 29.5 in the next test because it was just getting it stride at 28.5



no pressure signs even at 28.5gn
27.5gn CFE 223 52gn smk
1)2786
2)2831
3)2849
4)2833
5)2854

High:2854
Low:2786
E.S.:68
Ave.:2830.6
S.D.:24


27.8gn CFE 223 52gn smk
1)2847
2)2854
3)2851
4)2918
5)2842

High:2918
Low:2842
E.S.:76
Ave.:2862.4
S.D.:28.1


28.1gn CFE 223 52gn smk
1)2920
2)2925
3)2872
4)2928
5)2907

High:2928
Low:2872
E.S.:56
Ave.:2910.4
S.D.:20.5


28.5gn CFE 223 52gn smk
1)2917
2)3039
3)2917
4)2930
5)2938

High:3039
Low:2917
E.S.:122
Ave.:2948.2
S.D.:46.1

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Posted: 3/11/2012 5:42:57 PM EST
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Posted: 3/11/2012 5:53:54 PM EST
and i payed 19 a lb at a local fun show. i have never shot blc-2

had to getup to 27gn or so to get the soot down on the cases.
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:07:31 PM EST
thanks for the write up and all of the info. It looks like the velocity keeps climbing with the more powder you put in the case. At 28.5 grain how full is the case? any room for any more powder? were there any pressure signs at 28.5? what chrono are you using? any loss of fouling?
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:09:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By dryflash3:

Originally Posted By black_m4:
Good deal man. Where did you find the CFE223? and how much? (if you dont mind) my loacal guy still has not got any yet. from what i read and heard about this powder after 64 grains of bullet weight the powder doesnt do so well. It looks like you had some decent shooting with the hornady bullets. the match kings not so much. how does this gun shoot with other ammo. how was the flash? were the cases clean? is it very differet than BLC-2? have you noticed any of the benifits of the CFE?
Got CFE 223 from Powder Valley. $132 per 8lbs. IIRC $18.50 a pound.

Only bullet I have tried with CFE 223 is the 69 gr SMK. I was getting .75 10 shot 100 yd groups with work up loads.

This matches results with IMR-8208 XBR with the same bullet, primer, case combo.

Flash? didn't notice, I was shooting groups. Cases get dirty just like with other powders.

I like BLC2, but CFE 223 is more accurate in my AR with precession loads.

Benefits; great accuracy and since it's a ball powder, it measures great. No premium price.

You don't need a $250-$300 electronic powder dribbler to drop charges. A powder measure works fine.





have you shot enough to notice the difference coper fouling? Is it more or less smoky/ dirty than say H335 or BLC-2?
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:13:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By black_m4:
thanks for the write up and all of the info. It looks like the velocity keeps climbing with the more powder you put in the case. At 28.5 grain how full is the case? any room for any more powder? were there any pressure signs at 28.5? what chrono are you using? any loss of fouling?


i am using a ced m2 chrono. i think i can get another grain in the case we will see and i will report back. i had no pressure signs period so i am going to go up at .3 intervals till the case is full or i get to 29.5 with the 52

and i am going to go to 29 with the 55sp. i just like to see what i can get safely and then i will back off to the best group.

barrel looks real good i think i am going to leave it and not clean it till i am done with the cfe testing then i will run my borescope in it to see what it looks like.
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:16:34 PM EST
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:21:46 PM EST
heck yeah man leave it dirty. Im placing a order tomorrow with powder valley. Im going to use it for the 1500 z-max bullets i got. Man with those velocities in a 16 inch they are going to be great for 3 gun. What primers are you using? can you get some pics of the cases. Sorry to ask so many questions.
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:26:31 PM EST

have you shot enough to notice the difference coper fouling? Is it more or less smoky/ dirty than say H335 or BLC-2?
[/div]No. Every time I shoot CFE 223, I also shoot other powders. Not something I worry about.[div]
[/div][div]All powders in an AR make it dirty. I really don't understand why this question is asked. Must be important to some, to me a non issue.[/div][div]
[/div][div]I clean my AR after each range outing. Just old school.

[/div][/div]

I ask this questions because the ammo will be shot suppressed and i also like to clean my guns offen but if the gun is half way clean then thats less time I spend doing it. Im mostly concerned with sopper fouling. Thanks.
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:31:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2012 6:34:37 PM EST by BIGGDAWG]
Originally Posted By black_m4:
heck yeah man leave it dirty. Im placing a order tomorrow with powder valley. Im going to use it for the 1500 z-max bullets i got. Man with those velocities in a 16 inch they are going to be great for 3 gun. What primers are you using? can you get some pics of the cases. Sorry to ask so many questions.


here are the pics of the cases. 55sp on the left and 52 smk on the right

eta: they are rem 7 1/2 primers i noted that in the original post




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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:33:48 PM EST
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:46:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By BIGGDAWG:
Originally Posted By black_m4:
heck yeah man leave it dirty. Im placing a order tomorrow with powder valley. Im going to use it for the 1500 z-max bullets i got. Man with those velocities in a 16 inch they are going to be great for 3 gun. What primers are you using? can you get some pics of the cases. Sorry to ask so many questions.


here are the pics of the cases. 55sp on the left and 52 smk on the right

eta: they are rem 7 1/2 primers i noted that in the original post

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/BIGGDAWG800/main%20album/IMG_4705.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/BIGGDAWG800/main%20album/IMG_4704.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/BIGGDAWG800/main%20album/IMG_4703.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/BIGGDAWG800/main%20album/IMG_4702.jpg


Thanks very much. Man now i can wait even more. when are you going back with the loads with 29 grain?
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Posted: 3/11/2012 6:49:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By black_m4:

Thanks very much. Man now i can wait even more. when are you going back with the loads with 29 grain?



i may get out this week sometime if not it will be 2 weeks, busy next weekend but it is supposed to be in the 70's tues wed so hopefully i can get out.
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Posted: 3/11/2012 7:08:53 PM EST
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Posted: 3/12/2012 4:42:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By black_m4:
thanks for the write up and all of the info. It looks like the velocity keeps climbing with the more powder you put in the case. At 28.5 grain how full is the case? any room for any more powder? were there any pressure signs at 28.5? what chrono are you using? any loss of fouling?


i did some measuring tonight and a lc 10 case trimmed to 1.752 will hold 31.5 grains completely full and 30gn to the bottom of the neck

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Posted: 3/12/2012 5:19:10 PM EST
man that is some dense powder. thanks very much for the write up.
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Posted: 3/13/2012 6:20:32 AM EST
I trim my .223 brass to 1.748. Looks like 26.4g of CFE223 stops right where the brass stops straight walling.

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Posted: 3/13/2012 9:33:48 AM EST
CFE 223 has been very accurate so far. 52 gr.SMK's in .520 (5 shot) groups, 68 gr. BTHP's at .528 and 50 gr V-Max in similar size groups. This is out of a 20" 1/8 twist mid length(Sabre).

In my new 16" 1/8 P3 stainless barrel, I am getting near one hole 3 shot groups. Sadly, the other two shots are puzzling me with the wild out of group placement. After more testing I will know if the optic on this gun is the issue or the nut behind the trigger. I played with 5 different powders on that outing. I am going to stick with CFE until I know what's up. Wind has been bad here for the last month, with wind warnings today. Looks like a load ammo day. Cheers :)
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Posted: 3/13/2012 4:00:33 PM EST
Got out again today to go for max load. and retry a couple of charges. so far it looks like 27.5 and 28.2 are going to be the loads. i am going to load up 20 of each and take them out to 200 yards

and see what they will do.

I went to 28.6 with the 55 sp and it started showing ejector marks at that point but it did hit 3000 out of my 16" barrel but the group opened up a lot. don't see any need to load that hot again 28.2-28.4 would

be considered max in my gun with this bullet.

all groups were rapid fire from my lead sled

again brass is lc 10
primer rem 7 1/2
loaded to 2.20
no crimp this time


temp 74 wind 5-10 from 9 o'clock sunny



NO CRIMP
26.6 cfe223 horn 55sp
1)2739
2)2773
3)2759
4)2754
5)2735

High:2773
Low:2735
E.S.:38
Ave.:2752
S.D.:13.8

27.5 cfe223 horn 55sp
1)2875
2)2840
3)2821
4)2832
5)2848

High:2875
Low:2821
E.S.:54
Ave.:2843.2
S.D.:18.2

27.8 cfe223 horn 55sp
1)2860
2)2876
3)2865

High:2876
Low:2860
E.S.:16
Ave.:2867
S.D.:6.7

28 cfe223 horn 55sp
1)2895
2)2907
3)2894

High:2907
Low:2894
E.S.:13
Ave.:2898.7
S.D.:5.9

28.2 cfe223 horn 55sp
1)2913
2)2944
3)2932

High:2944
Low:2913
E.S.:31
Ave.:2929.7
S.D.:12.8

28.4 cfe223 horn 55sp
1)2991
2)2976
3)2952

High:2991
Low:2952
E.S.:39
Ave.:2973
S.D.:16.1

28.6 cfe223 horn 55sp
1)3003
2)3000
3)3017

High:3017
Low:3000
E.S.:17
Ave.:3006.7
S.D.:7.4
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Posted: 3/14/2012 2:56:26 PM EST
Went back out today with 20 rounds each of 27.5 and 28.2 the best loads from yesterday. and i can say with confidence

the 27.5 is the load for my gun. here is the target from today. i shot 2 5 round groups of each then i shot 10 round group of each.

all in all i am very happy with cfe 223 i also checked my barrel, i hadn't cleaned it since i started shooting the cfe and with 200 rounds down range there is zero copper in the barrel.


with an average of 2850fps out of my 16" it should be a pretty decent load for the varmits.

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Posted: 3/14/2012 5:33:23 PM EST
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Posted: 3/14/2012 6:00:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2012 6:01:16 PM EST by black_m4]
man that is bad ass. 27.5 looks like a winner. and no copper! I found 16 pounds in town im picking up friday. are you shooting a pistion gun?
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Posted: 3/14/2012 6:05:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By black_m4:
man that is bad ass. 27.5 looks like a winner. and no copper! I found 16 pounds in town im picking up friday. are you shooting a pistion gun?


no it is a gas gun lmt cqb mrp with the quick change barrel and monolithic upper.

be sure to work up but i would start around 26.5 and work up from there. start watching close after 28 if you go that high.



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Posted: 3/14/2012 6:16:10 PM EST
Im going to maybe 27.5 seeing as how this will be shot in a short barrel . My longest barrel is 14.5 shortest is 8 so im not too crazy about pushing them too fast. Are you going to start pumping any out in volume?
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Posted: 3/14/2012 6:20:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By black_m4:
Im going to maybe 27.5 seeing as how this will be shot in a short barrel . My longest barrel is 14.5 shortest is 8 so im not too crazy about pushing them too fast. Are you going to start pumping any out in volume?


yep going to a gun show next weekend and going to pick up 8lbs and a couple thousand hornady 55sp to load up. also loading up some benchmark loads i get about 75fps faster out of it on my accuracy

node about 2920fps at 25gn but the groups are just a bit larger 1/4-1/2 inch larger.
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Posted: 3/15/2012 6:06:57 AM EST
I haven't done as much testing as you, yet, but my first tests with Hornady 55 FMJs seem to agree with yours. My best groups by far were with 27.5 grains at about .75" shooting from a 16" RRA 1/9" with Eotech and 3x magnifier. (I know, not the best set up for testing accuracy. I have a scope now). I don't have a chrono, so I don't know what the velocities were. I went up to 27.8 grains (book max) and never saw any pressure signs at all. I also found an accuracy node somewhere in the 26s (don't remember the exact charge atm), but it wasn't as good as the 27.5 ones. Apparently this powder likes to be pushed.

I have some 50gr Vmaxs to try out, too.
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Posted: 3/15/2012 9:08:21 AM EST
Nice! My 20" 1/8 likes the 52 gr SMK and 28.0 gr of CFE. The 68 gr Hornady is putting 5 into .5-.6, but I haven't done as much shooting as above to find a sweet varmint load.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 1:53:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/26/2012 2:18:11 PM EST by xtreme762]
53gn V-max @ 2.240, CCI #41, LC 11, 24" 1x8

28.5 CFE223

ES: 74
SD: 29

1- 3519
2 - 3520
3 - 3540
4 - 3466
5 - 3490

A - 3507

No pressure signs. 1MOA 5 shot group @ 100. Gonna go up to 29gn in increments of .3 and see how they do.

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Posted: 3/26/2012 3:11:30 PM EST
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Posted: 3/26/2012 4:12:12 PM EST
i really need to get my hands on 8# of this stuff
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Posted: 3/26/2012 4:26:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By xtreme762:
53gn V-max @ 2.240, CCI #41, LC 11, 24" 1x8

28.5 CFE223

ES: 74
SD: 29

1- 3519
2 - 3520
3 - 3540
4 - 3466
5 - 3490

A - 3507

No pressure signs. 1MOA 5 shot group @ 100. Gonna go up to 29gn in increments of .3 and see how they do.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2589/imag0081w.jpg



velocities look great. some pics of the targets would be great.

i really like this powder going to try it in my new 6.5 grendel and see what it does.

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Posted: 3/26/2012 4:42:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/26/2012 4:51:19 PM EST by xtreme762]
Originally Posted By BIGGDAWG:
Originally Posted By xtreme762:
53gn V-max @ 2.240, CCI #41, LC 11, 24" 1x8

28.5 CFE223

ES: 74
SD: 29

1- 3519
2 - 3520
3 - 3540
4 - 3466
5 - 3490

A - 3507

No pressure signs. 1MOA 5 shot group @ 100. Gonna go up to 29gn in increments of .3 and see how they do.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2589/imag0081w.jpg



velocities look great. some pics of the targets would be great.

i really like this powder going to try it in my new 6.5 grendel and see what it does.



Just got to actually measure the 28.5gn group with a tape, not a micrometer. But the tape says 1 1/8" edge to edge. So a hair over 1MOA actual. But for hunting ammo, I think it's good to go. If your not pushing this bullet to 3400+, I don't think it's worth using for hunting.
I'm hoping that pushing the charge a little further will open another accuracy node. As you can see, 27, and 27.3 were a real good accuracy zone. All these groups were on a warm barrel and high winds.
No comp. for wind on my part at all, which leads me to believe the groups could have been better if I had the time to mess around longer.



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Posted: 3/26/2012 4:48:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By xtreme762:
Originally Posted By BIGGDAWG:
Originally Posted By xtreme762:
53gn V-max @ 2.240, CCI #41, LC 11, 24" 1x8

28.5 CFE223

ES: 74
SD: 29

1- 3519
2 - 3520
3 - 3540
4 - 3466
5 - 3490

A - 3507

No pressure signs. 1MOA 5 shot group @ 100. Gonna go up to 29gn in increments of .3 and see how they do.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2589/imag0081w.jpg



velocities look great. some pics of the targets would be great.

i really like this powder going to try it in my new 6.5 grendel and see what it does.



Just got to actually measure the 28.5gn group with a tape, not a micrometer. But the tape says 1 1/8" edge to edge. So a hair over 1MOA actual. But for hunting ammo, I think it's good to go. If your not pushing this bullet to 3400+, I don't think it's worth using for hunting.
I'm hoping that pushing the charge a little further will open another accuracy node. As you can see, 27, and 27.3 were a real good accuracy zone. All these groups were on a warm barrel and high winds.
No comp. for wind on my part at all, which leads me to believe they groups could have been better if I had the time to mess around longer.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7153/imag0082sw.jpg






looks very good. you may find another node. this powder looks very forgiving to me.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 4:55:50 PM EST
I gotta thank you BD. You put me on this powder, and so far it's been great with the chosen bullet. If all goes well, I may end up with a 30gn compressed hunting load. I'll report back when I complete the tests.
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Posted: 3/27/2012 9:50:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/27/2012 9:55:57 AM EST by xtreme762]
Just got around to cleaning my rifle after yesterdays testing. The barrel was squeeky clean; no copper, no carbon, no nothing before the range! I found it interesting that I found this in the barrel:



The following 3 patches after this one, came out nearly the same.

All this after 30 shots using CFE223. On any other day using factory loads or my loads, the barrel would be the same as the above. Now, I realize CFE223 is suppose to "help" keep the copper out, and not keep it out completely. But it doesn't look to me that it did anything for the copper. I'm still gonna use it because it burns real clean, and my bullets like the velocity. Quite frankly, so do I..

Figured I would show my findings.
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Posted: 3/27/2012 10:50:00 AM EST
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