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mrpoupon
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Posted: 3/4/2012 11:20:31 PM
So this is being released in a couple of weeks. Midway has it as coming soon. Has anyone seen it anywhere yet?

I thing it will be going for $80. It will obviously compete against the Dillon 600 which is about $100.

Hope someone can review it because I hate using my Hornady PP Reamer.
MastaMarksman
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Posted: 3/5/2012 12:39:42 AM
Yeah, pretty much looks like a copy of Dillon's.


I say support the origional and proven product/manufacture.. Lead not follow..

-Masta
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Muddydogs
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Posted: 3/5/2012 8:28:38 AM
Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:
Yeah, pretty much looks like a copy of Dillon's.


I say support the original and proven product/manufacture.. Lead not follow..

-Masta


+ 1. This is what I was thinking. I mainly use RCBS stuff but the Dillon swagger is great.

If you what a review so bad why not be the first to buy and try? Want other people to waste there money so you don't have to?
GWhis
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Posted: 3/5/2012 11:32:05 AM
[Last Edit: 3/5/2012 11:48:59 AM by GWhis]
Personally, I'm all for competition. That's what has given us all the great tools we have now.

I saw the shotshow video demonstration of the RCBS tool, and here's my take so far:

Though very similar to the Dillon tool, the leverage method is not the same. The sideways lever is very short...yet effort is...well, not effort at all....that's impressive. The Dillon has a pretty long handle requiring a lot of space in front of the bench and a lot of movement to work the handle. A possible plus to the RCBS design is you don't have to move much at all to work the machine, nor do you have to get out of the way of the lever (reloading press style).

One more plus, is that though both tools retail for about the same. For Dillon that's the price +/- $5. For RCBS, price at Midway is $20 less. Dillon and Apple seem to have that mentality in common.

What does bother me is that Kent Sakamoto of RCBS either didn't know how to work the machine well, the tool at the shot show wasn't adjusted right, or the RCBS tool doesn't align the case as well, unassisted, as the Dillon unit. IMO that feature would be worth the extra $20 Dillon gets. But I'm willing to wait and see....that may be just a shot show screw up.

Watched the video once more....it appears the tool is adjusted to drop the case a smidgen to far down...both times he had to raise it a tad. I'm betting that's an adjustment. Who ever set that up is in trouble with Kent. If that's the case, I'd say the RCBS tool is more than competitive.

Video links below....

RCBS Video
Dillon Video
MastaMarksman
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Posted: 3/5/2012 11:47:10 AM
I do like the short handle, but it makes me wonder how they are getting the leverage, I know with the Dillon you have to put a bit of force on the handle, so with that short of a handle I can't imagine it would be as easy as the video shows... I'm going to say, I think in the video they are likely not even using crimped brass and are just showing it's operation on new uncrimped brass, and that actually removing a crimp will require alot more force.

I also don't like their long handle to rotate the case up and down, it's way bigger than needed. The Dillon just used a short stub that you can flip back anf fourth, much easier/faster if you ask me.

-Masta
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angus6
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Posted: 3/5/2012 12:20:24 PM
Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:
Yeah, pretty much looks like a copy of Dillon's.


I say support the origional and proven product/manufacture.. Lead not follow..

-Masta


Where would we be if Dillon hadn't copied off of Star
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Dourtyb
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Posted: 3/5/2012 12:44:50 PM
I'm going to give the RCBS unit a go as soon as it is available. I've been watching Midway for months now and they keep moving the available date out by 2 weeks. What's taking RCBS so long to get these out the door?

Brian
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Posted: 3/5/2012 2:53:15 PM
Originally Posted By angus6:
Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:
Yeah, pretty much looks like a copy of Dillon's.


I say support the origional and proven product/manufacture.. Lead not follow..

-Masta


Where would we be if Dillon hadn't copied off of Star


History has a way of repeating its self. Have noticed that too.
" God Bless Our Snipers ".
GWhis
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Posted: 3/5/2012 3:24:21 PM
[Last Edit: 3/5/2012 3:29:54 PM by GWhis]
If you watched the RCBS video to its end you might have noticed one more thing.

They lurk here. AlliedArmory's $28 bullet feeder idea went........noticed. RCBS was quick about that one. That lists @ $35. I wonder if they will beat $28 at Midway???
wilNva
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Posted: 3/5/2012 3:37:28 PM
[Last Edit: 3/5/2012 3:38:18 PM by wilNva]
There's only a few ways to remove a primer crimp, I don't really see it as them ripping Dillon off. You need an internal support rod and a swaging nub pressed in with either a cam action or direct pressure. Given those two requirements there's only a couple ways to package it. It's about time someone else made a unit to compete and lower the price.

The $100 was too much for me so I made my own setup. Mines a bit slower but it gets the job done just fine.
Wingman26
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Posted: 3/5/2012 6:05:50 PM
I was watching the RCBS video and they talked about the universal chuck on their trimmer, almost the exact same system I got 45+ years ago on my Lyman case trimmer! I guess if you give them another 50 years they might get up to date (2012) on some of that stuff...
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GWhis
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Posted: 3/6/2012 1:42:32 AM
[Last Edit: 3/6/2012 1:50:30 AM by GWhis]
Originally Posted By Wingman26:
I was watching the RCBS video and they talked about the universal chuck on their trimmer, almost the exact same system I got 45+ years ago on my Lyman case trimmer! I guess if you give them another 50 years they might get up to date (2012) on some of that stuff...


exact same system? A bit of a stretch isn't it? Does Lyman make a 3-way cutter yet? No. Nor is their "universal" shell holder without its problems, or as easy to use.

But back to the swager.... Perhaps RCBS kept their old swager design too long, but on the other hand, what other swager can a person on a tight budget buy...that works? Lyman makes a soft steel reamer that dulls really fast, but I don't think they ever made a swager, did they?
MastaMarksman
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Posted: 3/6/2012 10:11:30 PM
[Last Edit: 3/6/2012 10:15:07 PM by MastaMarksman]
Originally Posted By GWhis:
But back to the swager.... Perhaps RCBS kept their old swager design too long, but on the other hand, what other swager can a person on a tight budget buy...that works? Lyman makes a soft steel reamer that dulls really fast, but I don't think they ever made a swager, did they?


The Dillon? The new RCBS swager isn't ALOT cheaper, and there's nothing soo much better than Dillon's that required it to be remade, so other than to take market share from Dillon I don't see much need for them to even make it..

Now if they sold it for $50, then we would be talkin.. But to come to market years later with basically the same product and sell it for virtually the same price, What's the point? Just so the green crew can purchase the same color?

Don't fix what ain't broke.. There are PLENTY of other things RCBS could work on that would have made alot more since, but instead they introduce their "new" products like they are completely innovative and first to market!

Now with that said, I'm glad to see anything new in the reloading market, I just wish instead of measuring the stroke of their presses *wink*, these companies would put more time, effort, money, and R&D into truly NEW products and not just remake a product that wasn't broke to begin with.

-Masta
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I'll Keep My Guns, My Rights and My Money. You Can Keep The "Change"!

Scott_R
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Posted: 3/6/2012 10:19:39 PM

Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:
Originally Posted By GWhis:
But back to the swager.... Perhaps RCBS kept their old swager design too long, but on the other hand, what other swager can a person on a tight budget buy...that works? Lyman makes a soft steel reamer that dulls really fast, but I don't think they ever made a swager, did they?


The Dillon? The new RCBS swager isn't ALOT cheaper, and there's nothing soo much better than Dillon's that required it to be remade, so other than to take market share from Dillon I don't see much need for them to even make it..

Now if they sold it for $50, then we would be talkin.. But to come to market years later with basically the same product and sell it for virtually the same price, What's the point? Just so the green crew can purchase the same color?

Don't fix what ain't broke.. There are PLENTY of other things RCBS could work on that would have made alot more since, but instead they introduce their "new" products like they are completely innovative and first to market!

Now with that said, I'm glad to see anything new in the reloading market, I just wish instead of measuring the stroke of their presses *wink*, these companies would put more time, effort, money, and R&D into truly NEW products and not just remake a product that wasn't broke to begin with.

-Masta

Where he says: "old swager". I think he's talking about the $30... ugh, wait for it... OLD swager.


"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone." Frederic Bastiat
GWhis
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Posted: 3/6/2012 11:55:25 PM
[Last Edit: 3/6/2012 11:59:24 PM by GWhis]
I think we all would love to see every manufacturer come up with really new and better stuff, but sometimes when they try they get burned by the typically traditionalist reloader, who won't try new technology. (Unless it is made by Dillon that is). The RCBS/CCI APS venture into a safer, faster primer system comes to mind. It's one of those try it and you'll love it sort of things, but many won't.

As far copy cats in the industry, that's been going on for...ever. RCBS invented the double leveraged press....remember? Everybody else was using a single lever system. They ALL copied that one. I expect that the moment the RCBS/CCI patents on APS is done, it will suddenly become popular. Maybe a Dillon/Winchester deal?

I'm wondering how long Dillon has been making their swager......is it that time??? If not, RCBS probably has licensed it. That's pretty common in the industry.

For example: Ever wonder why Hornady's P.M. and RCBS's Uniflow are so similar? Hornady Licensed it from RCBS. Hornady then invented the sweet linkage that makes it work trouble-free on their progressives.....it works better than RCBS's old system. Therefore, RCBS licensed the linkage from Hornady ,.....on and on. I've heard that several patents owned by Richard Lee are used industry wide..
AssaultRifler
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Posted: 3/7/2012 8:16:12 AM

Originally Posted By GWhis:

As far copy cats in the industry, that's been going on for...ever. RCBS invented the double leveraged press....remember? Everybody else was using a single lever system. They ALL copied that one. I expect that the moment the RCBS/CCI patents on APS is done, it will suddenly become popular. Maybe a Dillon/Winchester deal?

I'm wondering how long Dillon has been making their swager......is it that time??? If not, RCBS probably has licensed it. That's pretty common in the industry.

For example: Ever wonder why Hornady's P.M. and RCBS's Uniflow are so similar? Hornady Licensed it from RCBS. Hornady then invented the sweet linkage that makes it work trouble-free on their progressives.....it works better than RCBS's old system. Therefore, RCBS licensed the linkage from Hornady ,.....on and on. I've heard that several patents owned by Richard Lee are used industry wide..

Patents expire after 17 years so no need to license anything after that date. My Dillon swager is from the early 90's
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GWhis
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Posted: 3/7/2012 11:42:57 AM
[Last Edit: 3/7/2012 11:43:39 AM by GWhis]
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Patents expire after 17 years so no need to license anything after that date. My Dillon swager is from the early 90's


That answers that question, then. Maybe Hornady will make a red one next year.

With a little google search, I discovered that RCBS and CCI bought the APS primer system patent in first quarter 1998 (I have no idea who the inventor was, except that obviously it wasn't RCBS or CCI). The Pro 2000 press was introduced at the shot show in Y2K. I don't know what tool it was, (bench primer maybe?), but they sold an APS primer tool on the market earlier than the Pro 2000's intro.

That means, according to your 17 year rule, that APS will be patent-free in 3 more years (or less....depending on when the original inventor's patent was dated).....interesting.....wonder what that will bring. Will Dillon get tired of their primer tube blowups, and the bad press from the same?....or having to replace blown up parts for free? Even better maybe Hornady will invent the mother of all strip loaders. The RCBS striploader isn't bad really, but it could be improved.
AssaultRifler
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Posted: 3/7/2012 12:45:02 PM
Correction on patents: Patents afer June 8, 1995 are for 20 years, before then they're 17

http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/patents.jsp

How long does patent protection last?

For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees. Design patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent. No maintenance fees are required for design patents.

Note: Patents in force on June 8, 1995 and patents issued thereafter on applications filed prior to June 8, 1995 automatically have a term that is the greater of the twenty year term discussed above or seventeen years from the patent grant.





"Bullets change governments far surer than votes.." - Lord of War 2005

"The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" – Margaret Thatcher
Dourtyb
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Posted: 3/7/2012 3:28:44 PM
Midway updated their expected in stock date to 6/11/2012. RCBS alluded to packaging problems holding up the release in the video but indicated the product was done. This seems very odd to me, how long does it take to package a product? Doesn't seem like rocket science. Maybe a legal battle or product issue? Pure speculation though.

Brian
Wingman26
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Posted: 3/7/2012 6:23:51 PM

Originally Posted By GWhis:
Originally Posted By Wingman26:
I was watching the RCBS video and they talked about the universal chuck on their trimmer, almost the exact same system I got 45+ years ago on my Lyman case trimmer! I guess if you give them another 50 years they might get up to date (2012) on some of that stuff...


exact same system? A bit of a stretch isn't it? Does Lyman make a 3-way cutter yet? No. Nor is their "universal" shell holder without its problems, or as easy to use.

But back to the swager.... Perhaps RCBS kept their old swager design too long, but on the other hand, what other swager can a person on a tight budget buy...that works? Lyman makes a soft steel reamer that dulls really fast, but I don't think they ever made a swager, did they?

Does Lyman make a 3 way cutter? No, but they don't come with the RCBS either, you have to buy it on the aftermarket extra, so you can add it, just like the RCBS. Lyman's universal chuck works just fine, if there was a problem with it, I think I would have found it in the last 45 years...

I bought one of those RCBS press mounted swagers about 45 years ago, I have posted my dissatisfaction with its poor performance a number of times on this board, that's why I was so happy when I tried the Dillon Super Swage, only regretting I had waited so long to buy one.

Lyman's reamer that you say won't last very long, has lasted me 45 years and shows no evidence of wear at all, the bluing has worn off but that's to be expected, cutting on brass doesn't really cause much wear, but I'll be sure to post a report if it ever shows any actual wear.
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Blacktail-8541
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Posted: 3/7/2012 8:45:50 PM
I have seen the product availeable at Huntingtons' in Oroville. Next door to RCBS
gman556
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Posted: 3/7/2012 8:50:41 PM
I'd like to see this come out, and give it a try. It looks like it would be a little more quiet than the Dillon, because of the side lever motion?. The bump the Dillon makes is a little bit too loud for an apartment.

I also tried the RCBS press swager, and that was even louder. My bench it pretty solid too, and doesn't move at all, so it's not my bench. The bumping sound it would make was the equivalent of me lightly stamping on my floor. I live upstairs.
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MastaMarksman
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Posted: 3/7/2012 8:57:47 PM
Originally Posted By gman556:
I'd like to see this come out, and give it a try. It looks like it would be a little more quiet than the Dillon, because of the side lever motion?. The bump the Dillon makes is a little bit too loud for an apartment.

I also tried the RCBS press swager, and that was even louder. My bench it pretty solid too, and doesn't move at all, so it's not my bench. The bumping sound it would make was the equivalent of me lightly stamping on my floor. I live upstairs.


Uhh, I've never heard anyone complain about the Dillon being loud before..... I guess theresa a first for everything..

Personally mine is not loud at all. As a matter of fact, throwing the brass into the bucket when finished is about 10x louder than the swager..

-Masta
Dear Obama.

I'll Keep My Guns, My Rights and My Money. You Can Keep The "Change"!

gman556
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Posted: 3/7/2012 9:46:35 PM
Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:
Originally Posted By gman556:
I'd like to see this come out, and give it a try. It looks like it would be a little more quiet than the Dillon, because of the side lever motion?. The bump the Dillon makes is a little bit too loud for an apartment.

I also tried the RCBS press swager, and that was even louder. My bench it pretty solid too, and doesn't move at all, so it's not my bench. The bumping sound it would make was the equivalent of me lightly stamping on my floor. I live upstairs.


Uhh, I've never heard anyone complain about the Dillon being loud before..... I guess theresa a first for everything..

Personally mine is not loud at all. As a matter of fact, throwing the brass into the bucket when finished is about 10x louder than the swager..

-Masta


I guess I should of said that I never had the Dillon, but figured it would be just as noisy? From the vids I seen on it, it seemed to make a bumping sound that would be annoying for my downstairs neighbor. If you never lived in an apartment, than you wouldn't understand. If you have than I would love some input as to weather the dillon would be ok to get for me? I don't feel like waiting for the RCBS to come out in june, just to save a few dollars.
Thanks.
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Scott_R
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Posted: 3/7/2012 10:18:45 PM
I happen to email RCBS about another matter ( in which they exemplified outstanding customer service, btw ) and inquired about the release date for this swager. Their answer:

Scott, you are welcome but we don’t have an exact date yet. Should be out within a month. Have a great day and enjoy your reloading.


"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone." Frederic Bastiat
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Posted: 3/8/2012 7:09:09 PM
[Last Edit: 3/8/2012 7:10:38 PM by MastaMarksman]
Originally Posted By gman556:
Originally Posted By MastaMarksman:
Originally Posted By gman556:
I'd like to see this come out, and give it a try. It looks like it would be a little more quiet than the Dillon, because of the side lever motion?. The bump the Dillon makes is a little bit too loud for an apartment.

I also tried the RCBS press swager, and that was even louder. My bench it pretty solid too, and doesn't move at all, so it's not my bench. The bumping sound it would make was the equivalent of me lightly stamping on my floor. I live upstairs.


Uhh, I've never heard anyone complain about the Dillon being loud before..... I guess theresa a first for everything..

Personally mine is not loud at all. As a matter of fact, throwing the brass into the bucket when finished is about 10x louder than the swager..

-Masta


I guess I should of said that I never had the Dillon, but figured it would be just as noisy? From the vids I seen on it, it seemed to make a bumping sound that would be annoying for my downstairs neighbor. If you never lived in an apartment, than you wouldn't understand. If you have than I would love some input as to weather the dillon would be ok to get for me? I don't feel like waiting for the RCBS to come out in june, just to save a few dollars.
Thanks.


As a matter of fact I have lived in apartment, but always downstairs, and I never reloaded back then..

I can't imagine the Dillon swager making enough noise to bother anyone.. As I said chucking the cases into the bucket after swaging makes far more noise than the swager it self..

I can almost guarentee your press makes more noise than the swager would..

-Masta
Dear Obama.

I'll Keep My Guns, My Rights and My Money. You Can Keep The "Change"!

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