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Posted: 8/23/2010 11:58:49 PM EST
Hey gang. I wanted to show you something that they have been talking about over at CastBoolets for a while. I do not intend to take any credit for coming up with this, just wanted to show you a picture of some .40 S&W projectiles I made from 9mm brass and a cast bullet. The core is made from a LEE 125gr cast bullet, inserted upside down in the belled 9mm case. The swaging is done using a CH4D die that is modified by a guy that goes by BT Sniper over at Cast Bullets. The die is $150 and I used a Lyman Crusher II press to do the swaging.

Anyway, thought you guys might be interested in this facet of casting/swaging/reloading.

jonblack

Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:01:35 AM EST
I seriously need to learn how to do this stuff...

Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:03:57 AM EST
pretty cool, how do they shoot?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:05:56 AM EST
Not sure what the point is, but that's cool as hell.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:10:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Claybrook:
Not sure what the point is, but that's cool as hell.


I'd think they'd be quite a bit cheaper to reload than buying JHP bullets.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:12:54 AM EST
Neat. I knew some people made bullets for .223 Rem out of .22 LR cases + lead wire by a similar process, but hadn't seen it done for anything larger.

What about the fact that a 9mm case is significantly smaller than .400" diameter, both at the rim and farther up the case? The diagram in my Lee reloading manual shows a case diameter of 0.391" at the web, just forward of the extractor groove.

Of course, those are dimensions for new, unfired 9mm cases. Does 9mm brass expand enough when fired to make up the difference? I know my 10mm brass expands near the web, going from 0.420-0.421" on new brass to near 0.429" after the first firing. Sizing gets it back down to about 0.425". I don't reload 9mm, so I don't know the numbers for it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:14:29 AM EST
Seen this before, but always amazed at how cool it is that this stuff can be done.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:49:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 12:53:47 AM EST by jonblack]
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
pretty cool, how do they shoot?


Not sure how they shoot. I just got my die and have only made a few, and have not gotten a chance to load any yet. However, the guys over at the CastBoolits forum are pleased with the performance, even if it is only a plinking round. Here is a picture posted by BT Sniper that shows how they expand in wet newspaper.


Photo by BT Sniper - He says they retained 100% of their weight.

Originally Posted By Claybrook:
Not sure what the point is, but that's cool as hell.


It costs a few cents in raw materials (not counting equipment) to make your own. Buying jacketed hollow points costs considerably more. Plus it's fun, which has a value.

Originally Posted By Objekt:
What about the fact that a 9mm case is significantly smaller than .400" diameter, both at the rim and farther up the case? The diagram in my Lee reloading manual shows a case diameter of 0.391" at the web, just forward of the extractor groove.


When you swage the pressure causes the case to fill the cavity of the swaging die. So, you are actually using pressure to squash the case and make it swell. Plus the lead core is swelling inside the case from the hollow point tool going into it. For lack of a better way to describe it, it just works!


You can see there is enough pressure on the micrometer anvils to suspend the case with no support.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:54:55 AM EST
Can you imagine the chaos these would cause if used in a crime? CSI would go into a full tailspin with these bullets.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:57:07 AM EST
Sure looks like a lot of work.... How much time to swage brass and cast bullet to finished product
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:01:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Sure looks like a lot of work.... How much time to swage brass and cast bullet to finished product


Well, you can cast bullets with a LEE 6-banger pretty darn fast. Takes 2-3 seconds to drop in the core and 3-4 seconds to swage the bullet. Put it this way, it would take me less time, start-to-finish, to make a few hundred of these than it would take me to make the money to buy them.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:11:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 1:14:03 AM EST by glorifiedG]
Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL:
Can you imagine the chaos these would cause if used in a crime? CSI would go into a full tailspin with these bullets.


Crime lab on the phone with other crime lab... " yeah, the whole thing, case, bullet and all,where did the powder go, WTF? " BTW those look Bad Ass
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:15:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 1:16:24 AM EST by 1911smith]
Assuming those pictures are yours and pictures are of your finished product, Purely from... I might be interested in doing some day. How much time to take a cast bullet and a piece of brass to swage together to finish. Curious. Looks like a lot of work and for all I know you might be working for a nickle an hour and all the water you can drink like me. If that;s the case it would take some time.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:39:42 AM EST
Would they swage out far enough for .45 bullets?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:43:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By ontheback:
Would they swage out far enough for .45 bullets?


No, but BT Sniper just made a set to make .45 bullets from .40 S&W cases.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 2:01:07 AM EST
Totally kewl.

When I get moved back into a place that allows me to reload, this will be on my list.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 8:28:10 AM EST
bt sniper makes the swage dies and parts to convert your rp to use them,pretty cool stuff
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 8:40:55 AM EST
That is pretty cool.

Link Posted: 8/24/2010 9:04:43 AM EST
Can he make a die to make a .32 into a 9mm?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 9:08:56 AM EST
Pretty cool. I don't reload for pistol calibers right now but when I do I might have to start making my own bullets like this.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 9:26:12 AM EST
so would this work with shot out 9mm (read: reloaded to much) or is this only for relatively new?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 9:38:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Originally Posted By ontheback:
Would they swage out far enough for .45 bullets?


No, but BT Sniper just made a set to make .45 bullets from .40 S&W cases.

jonblack


ok, now I'm intertested, where's this at??
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 9:47:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 10:12:00 AM EST by DanishM1Garand]
Originally Posted By andr3w:
so would this work with shot out 9mm (read: reloaded to much) or is this only for relatively new?


This would be perfect for brass case berdan primed stuff and stuff that looks a little too bad to reload. I need to see if he can work this voodoo on 9mm to .410 bullets....
Voodoo
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 9:57:01 AM EST
Pure lead for the core?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 9:59:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By Crowkiller:
Pure lead for the core?


Whatever you have handy.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 10:02:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 10:13:10 AM EST by GWhis]
I just knew 9mm was worth something. Just didn't know for what until now. Finally, a worthwhile reason to pick up 9mm brass!

BTW, can't you just use lead wire instead of casting boolits first?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 10:49:13 AM EST
Do you have a link handy? I am extremely interested in the .40 brass into .45 projectiles swager.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:28:20 AM EST
This is SOOOO tagged.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:30:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By andr3w:
so would this work with shot out 9mm (read: reloaded to much) or is this only for relatively new?


You are simply making a jacket. Shot out cases are fine, and would obviously be more cost effective than new ones. As long as there are no splits, there should be no problems.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:30:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By tdowell:
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Originally Posted By ontheback:
Would they swage out far enough for .45 bullets?


No, but BT Sniper just made a set to make .45 bullets from .40 S&W cases.

jonblack


ok, now I'm intertested, where's this at??


Here you go.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:33:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
Originally Posted By andr3w:
so would this work with shot out 9mm (read: reloaded to much) or is this only for relatively new?


This would be perfect for brass case berdan primed stuff and stuff that looks a little too bad to reload. I need to see if he can work this voodoo on 9mm to .410 bullets....
Voodoo


I'm pretty sure that they are making them for .41 for 9mm. I know they are making them for .44 mag, too, but using .40 S&W cases, if I recall correctly. Step on over to the Swaging Forum at CastBoolits to learn more.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:35:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL:
Originally Posted By Crowkiller:
Pure lead for the core?


Whatever you have handy.


Yes, that is correct. Pure lead is going to be easier to swage than WW, but it will also be heavier. You determine your core alloy by what you want to final weight to be.

I think WW makes them in the 185gr range and pure lead makes them in the 190gr range.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:35:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By GWhis:
BTW, can't you just use lead wire instead of casting boolits first?


Sure, if you have lead wire in the right diameter.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:37:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sharpest:
Do you have a link handy? I am extremely interested in the .40 brass into .45 projectiles swager.


Yes, here is the link. Unfortunately it is much more expensive than making 40 from 9. There is more equipment involved and I am sure more labor.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:38:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By 96Ag:
Can he make a die to make a .32 into a 9mm?


I think they are making 9 from .380, which, in my opinion, is not cost effective.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:43:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 11:58:36 AM EST
Let me clarify. BT Sniper does not make the dies themselves. He buys swage die bodies from CH4D (no I'm not going to Google them for you) and then makes internal parts like the hollow pointing punch. He sells them as a complete ready to use kit.

This concept really isn't anything new. However, advances are being made in the process that makes using spent cases as jackets more easy and affordable.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:48:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 12:49:07 PM EST by jonblack]
Now you know what to do with that AMERC, S&B, and Non-Toxic brass you have been throwing away.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 12:56:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 1:09:58 PM EST by GWhis]
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Originally Posted By GWhis:
BTW, can't you just use lead wire instead of casting boolits first?


Sure, if you have lead wire in the right diameter.

jonblack


Corbin has Lead wire for sale in 70,000 grn spools for $39.00/spool. Less Shipping???? They have .312", .340", .365" plus other sizes of course. Corbin Link

Noticing that the ram presses into the tip to make the hollow point, I can see why your upsidedown bullets are used...gives somewhere for the swaged metal to go. So it would seem that lead wire would have to be smaller in diameter.
So what diameter is the lead bullets you used?....or you could link us to the thread that says. (for 9mm to .40 cal)

Corbin also makes swage dies for .22 cases to .223 bullets.....was really tempted about the time the Obama nightmare started. http://www.corbins.com/kit-224.htm Their all you need kit is $180.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:12:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Originally Posted By ontheback:
Would they swage out far enough for .45 bullets?


No, but BT Sniper just made a set to make .45 bullets from .40 S&W cases.

jonblack


WOW, they should be able to make a swagging die for the .429 form .40 S&W too!
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:27:41 PM EST
I would be very interested if this is a viable option for forming 10mm auto bullets...
Has anyone tried that?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:30:30 PM EST
That's awesome. Would the bullets be safe in poly rifling?
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:34:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Wayward_Texan:
I would be very interested if this is a viable option for forming 10mm auto bullets...
Has anyone tried that?


Here's a secret: 10mm bullets are the same as .40 bullets. There is at least one person over there using these in 10mm.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:35:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheMountaineer:
That's awesome. Would the bullets be safe in poly rifling?


They are jacketed. IIRC, the whole poly rifling thing revolves around lead buildup.

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:42:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheMountaineer:
That's awesome. Would the bullets be safe in poly rifling?



Not sure why they wouldnt be
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:42:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 1:43:21 PM EST by jonblack]
Originally Posted By GWhis:
Noticing that the ram presses into the tip to make the hollow point, I can see why your upsidedown bullets are used...gives somewhere for the swaged metal to go. So it would seem that lead wire would have to be smaller in diameter.
So what diameter is the lead bullets you used?....or you could link us to the thread that says. (for 9mm to .40 cal)


The bullet cores for the 9->40 are from the LEE 356-125-2R mold. I did not measure them as the bullet diameter isn't real critical. The weight matters more.

The bullet cores are inserted upside down as the case dimensions are smaller at the bottom of the inside of the 9mm case. Look inside of one and you can see what I am talking about. When the hollow pointing tool presses in, it swages the lead core and causes it to completely fill the inside of the cases.

Here is a picture posted by BT Sniper. It is some of the 44 cal 255 grain (ww core). Again, this is not my pic, it is BT Sniper's.


jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:47:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2010 1:52:15 PM EST by jonblack]
Originally Posted By GWhis:
Corbin also makes swage dies for .22 cases to .223 bullets.....was really tempted about the time the Obama nightmare started. http://www.corbins.com/kit-224.htm Their all you need kit is $180.


While that sure would be nice, your price is not accurate. Straight for the price list on Corbin's site: * KIT-224R –––––– Make free .224 bullets from fired .22 cases ––- 803.00

You may have been thinking about the jacket maker die alone, which derims the .22 cases, but does nothing else. Again, from the price list at Corbin's site: * RFJM-22R –––––– Rimfire Jacket-Maker, FREE .224 jackets. –––––– 179.00

jonblack
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:56:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By GWhis:
BTW, can't you just use lead wire instead of casting boolits first?


Hey GWhis

Here is some food for thought:

I read about another guy who just dunked the 9mm brass into the lead pot. He said it would fill the case and anneal the brass at the same time for easier swaging. Of course I tried it. I couldn't get it to work right dunking so I started filling the cases with a ladle (not fun). It does anneal the case, but it seemed to put too much lead in the case. I did it just for fun as I have the mold to cast the cores anyway.

Maybe if the cases were shortened, but that adds more work.

jonblack

Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:57:20 PM EST
This is SO cool, I am going to need to do this when I have the time .... (20 years from now when I am retired)
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 1:57:56 PM EST
very cool.
Link Posted: 8/24/2010 2:04:14 PM EST
Wicked.
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