Site Notices
9/18/2014 11:03:27 AM
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2
Author
Message
hkusp9
Offline
Posts: 4355
Feedback: 100% (9)
Posted: 4/24/2010 4:07:34 PM
so im going to a pistol class next week in which we will be focusing on accuracy with a pistol from 2-200 yards. With factory ammo i can hit a target pretty consistently at 100 but with my reloads, 230 gr fmj in front of like 4.7 of titegroup or something (cant remember the exact charge) its such low velocity that i have to aim several feet above the target.

Does anyone have a powder and powder charge recommendation for hot .230 gr FMJ load?
wildearp
Simple solutions to complex problems...
Offline
Posts: 18751
Feedback: 100% (36)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/24/2010 4:18:48 PM
.44 Magnum.
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much room!
Semper Fi, do or die!
NRA Life Member
SASS Life Member
Parrot32
Member
Offline
Posts: 1601
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/24/2010 4:31:46 PM
Go into your reloading book…

You are after something around the 850+ fps range, not some mortar round target load.

Still not going to shoot like a laser but it will help. Of course it still has to be accurate so you better get hopping to get a decent load developed.
hkusp9
Offline
Posts: 4356
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/24/2010 5:15:01 PM
Originally Posted By Parrot32:
Go into your reloading book…

You are after something around the 850+ fps range, not some mortar round target load.

Still not going to shoot like a laser but it will help. Of course it still has to be accurate so you better get hopping to get a decent load developed.


yeah thats my problem. I can dump a bunch of powder into any load and make it go fast, but i still have to be able to hit something with it....
uzisandfloozies
Offline
Posts: 69
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/24/2010 9:47:39 PM
you gotta use around for what it was intended. 45acp is not intended for 200 yards. even 44 mag is not a 200 yard round. shit, 45-70 is barely a 200 yard round

if you want to try blowing up a perfectly good pistol, go right ahead.
skink
Offline
Posts: 546
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/24/2010 10:06:38 PM
I shot at the Lackland AFB range a few times (pre 9/11/01). There was a large tanker out a "ways" (something like 800yrds, they would use it to practice with the M-79s). The RO told me and a buddy to try to hit the tanker w/ our .45s. He swore it could be done. I held several feet over the tanker with a USGI Colt (circa 1944) thinking this is a waste of ammo. Holy Crap! It took some time from report to "Thuck", but you could hear it hit!!!

Btw, I shot better than my buddy, but he could clear a Pin table quicker than I could (and he only used one mag...)

skink
1911smith
Member
Offline
Posts: 2085
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/24/2010 11:02:25 PM
45acp to 200 yards isn't so much a problem as 500 yards. Get your Google on and you'll find what I'm talking about. Your point of aim is wild @ 500 yards but can be done. I'd think 900 fps will get you what your looking for. I like SR-4756 for power loads.
Building 45acp is like building 350 Chevrolets. It can be the end all, be all, do all round. You can build it to be anything.
Chas8008
Member
Offline
Posts: 3048
Feedback: 100% (90)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/25/2010 4:05:36 AM
200 yds w/45 is fun
I'm up. Put my pants on so I have something to hang a holster on._ A-FREE-MAN


This is arfcom. If we don't know the answer , there is no answer. _WilliamGray

abpt1
46 75 63 6b 20 59 6f 75 &
Offline
Posts: 2632
Feedback: 100% (18)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/25/2010 9:09:22 AM
200gr SWC cast from a H&G68BB with a BNH of 27 on top of a nice charge of tight group .
Lost in PA ....


Μολών Λαβέ
AeroE
Member
Online
Posts: 26807
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/25/2010 10:35:37 AM
Either take more than one handgun, or take .45 ACP loads that are all identical.

The reason for using the same .45 ACP ammunition at all of the ranges is so your training has a baseline from which the come ups make sense. There's no way I would attend a class like that without running the ammunition across a chronograph first, and shooting to the longest distance available before going. I would also make some runs through a ballistics program to get a look at the ballistics at long ranges. Unless your gun has unusual sights, hold overs with a 1911 are going to be a guess, I don't know if the front sight can be marked with elevation bars that will get you that far out - I would be surprised, but I wouldn't know until I did some work.

I know Elmer Keith was an advocate of training for shooting the 1911 at much longer ranges (to 200 yards, I recall) when he worked for the government in Salt Lake City than the bosses thought a pistol was good for, and he demonstrated that it was possible, but never gained much traction amongst that bureauracracy.

It's true, Obama is the Leader of Fools deluded to believe, "Everything is going to change now".
As for me, I will embrace what is Right more tightly than ever.


1 lbf = 32.174 lbm-ft/sec^2
hkusp9
Offline
Posts: 4363
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/25/2010 4:05:56 PM
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Either take more than one handgun, or take .45 ACP loads that are all identical.

The reason for using the same .45 ACP ammunition at all of the ranges is so your training has a baseline from which the come ups make sense. There's no way I would attend a class like that without running the ammunition across a chronograph first, and shooting to the longest distance available before going. I would also make some runs through a ballistics program to get a look at the ballistics at long ranges. Unless your gun has unusual sights, hold overs with a 1911 are going to be a guess, I don't know if the front sight can be marked with elevation bars that will get you that far out - I would be surprised, but I wouldn't know until I did some work.

I know Elmer Keith was an advocate of training for shooting the 1911 at much longer ranges (to 200 yards, I recall) when he worked for the government in Salt Lake City than the bosses thought a pistol was good for, and he demonstrated that it was possible, but never gained much traction amongst that bureauracracy.



im going to use my chronograph to test some loads in a few hours. I want to get these rounds hot enough to shoot somewhat flat, but im more concerned about accuracy at that range. With my reloads i have to aim about 3-4 feet high at 100 yards, and the instructor said with factory ammo out of a 1911 you should aim for the neck/bottom of chin at 100 and 3-4 ft high at 200 so i really need to turn up the velocity on my rounds while still maintaining accuracy.
COSteve
G20L - 10mm Goodness!
Offline
Posts: 5753
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/25/2010 4:37:22 PM
While they still have a significant drop, I use 200grn bullets and Power Pistol powder to hotrod for 45acp+P loads. You can't get much velocity out of TiteGroup without spiking the pressure way over what is safe because its such a fast burning powder. A slower powder like Power Pistol won't spike the pressure so you can load a hotter round.
“Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.” - Buckaroo Banzai 1984
"When you find a find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it." - Dilbert 2009
hkusp9
Offline
Posts: 4364
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 2:54:14 AM
yeah im thinking im going to have to buy another 20 dollar bottle of powder for this damn class. I loaded up to 5.1 grains of titegroup behind a 230 gr FMJ with no really noticable signs of overpressure, but most load books list 5.2 as max so i guess i was kind of pushing it. Also i was only getting 800-820 fps and not the 850 that i was hoping for...

i have some 230 gr LRN laying around but im not sure how much accuracy that im going to get out of those and i figure they're not really going to fly any faster than the 230 gr FMJ's.
Although i guess i could trade them for some 200 gr. LSWC and buy some faster powder.

Could i get good accuracy out of that slower burning load you think?
ECS
Offline
Posts: 4799
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 8:05:50 AM
In 45ACP I'd forget about "flat shooting". You can't get the speed high enough with standard loadings to do that.

If you want "flat" shooting at 200 yards you need a bigger gun. Like a rifle.
RDTCU
Member
Offline
Posts: 2860
Feedback: 100% (17)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 8:46:55 AM
10mm
hkusp9
Offline
Posts: 4368
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 2:24:30 PM
very funny guys, ill admit that i thought about how nice it would be to show up to the class with a 10mm or a 5.7 pistol but i dont have that luxory. I take my .45 to work and I should train with it too, so basically no cutting corners.

Since Im stuck with this big slow moving boat, can anyone suggest any light hot loads?
kevins_garage
Offline
Posts: 2956
Feedback: 100% (34)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 3:44:44 PM
You could try a 185 at about 1000 fps. Probably going to be a lot flatter than a 230 at 850fps...
AeroE
Member
Online
Posts: 26834
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 5:26:00 PM
Originally Posted By hkusp9:
very funny guys, ill admit that i thought about how nice it would be to show up to the class with a 10mm or a 5.7 pistol but i dont have that luxory. I take my .45 to work and I should train with it too, so basically no cutting corners.

Since Im stuck with this big slow moving boat, can anyone suggest any light hot loads?


Light and hot will probably not do as well in the wind as heavy and pretty hot. They're all going to be subsonic, so I don't think I would worry about any weird drag problems from a transition from supersonic. That means 230 grain ball is probably the lowest drag best bet.

It's true, Obama is the Leader of Fools deluded to believe, "Everything is going to change now".
As for me, I will embrace what is Right more tightly than ever.


1 lbf = 32.174 lbm-ft/sec^2
Rich_V
Member
Offline
Posts: 2922
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 6:37:23 PM
Here is what you can expect for the 45

Link to balistic calculator

230 gr @ 1000 f/s (hot)

zero @ 100 yards
Drop @ 200 yards = -42 inches

zero @ 50 yards
Drop @ 200 yards = - 60 inches

zero @ 25 yards
Drop @ 200 yars = -67 inches

Good luck!
223 gets the job done, 308 makes a statement, 50 BMG shows an attitude!
ECS
Offline
Posts: 4800
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 6:40:16 PM
67 inch drop = Kentucky Windage
machinisttx
machinist and highly agitated observer
Offline
Posts: 18820
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 8:18:21 PM
[Last Edit: 4/26/2010 8:22:16 PM by machinisttx]
Originally Posted By uzisandfloozies:
you gotta use around for what it was intended. 45acp is not intended for 200 yards. even 44 mag is not a 200 yard round. shit, 45-70 is barely a 200 yard round

if you want to try blowing up a perfectly good pistol, go right ahead.




Damn fine work can be done with even the lowly .22 long rifle from a handgun at that distance. The 45-70 will bring down buffalo at well over 200(think 500+) with the right loads and a competent shooter.

ETA: OP, I hope you have high profile sights. With most autoloaders, you'll be looking at the slide once you get out that far.
Originally post by 2theLeft: If done right, there is no taste, because it goes right down the throat..

IM me to find out about SSA's poor customer service
Chris_1522
TEH DOOSE IS LEUSE!
Offline
Posts: 12014
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 9:14:18 PM
[Last Edit: 4/26/2010 9:18:04 PM by Chris_1522]
It won't make any real difference. You're going to have to aim several feet high to hit at 200 yards with a .45 no matter what loads you use. You're best off finding a load that shoots well at any range and learning to compensate for whatever drop it may have.

I can hit a man sized steel plate at 400 yards with my Savage Mark II FV (.22 LR). I have to hold over about 25 feet, though.
hkusp9
Offline
Posts: 4372
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/26/2010 11:58:58 PM
[Last Edit: 4/26/2010 11:59:52 PM by hkusp9]
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
It won't make any real difference. You're going to have to aim several feet high to hit at 200 yards with a .45 no matter what loads you use. You're best off finding a load that shoots well at any range and learning to compensate for whatever drop it may have.

I can hit a man sized steel plate at 400 yards with my Savage Mark II FV (.22 LR). I have to hold over about 25 feet, though.


Im really starting to look forward to this class. Its going to be comical trying to lob bullets out there at that range!

so are yall just saying that i should go with my 820 fps 230 gr. FMJ loads and aim for the hills?

Im really more focused at hitting at 100 anyway, i think hitting at 200 is going to be more of a "lets screw around at the end of class for shits and giggles" kind of thing. Although you could definately kill a guy cold dead at that distance, it would be from sheer luck of hitting him in head and you would have to do it on the first shot cause hes sure as fuck not going to be standing still after the first one skips off the ground in front of his feet. (although, honestly a few years ago if you pointed a pistol at me from 200 yards, and i knew it / recognized the object in your hand as a gun, i probably would have laughed and stood there).

If i could pepper people with bullets at 100 and break out car windows / pop tires at 200, ill be a happy camper after this class anyway.
machinisttx
machinist and highly agitated observer
Offline
Posts: 18839
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/27/2010 12:03:16 AM
Originally Posted By hkusp9:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
It won't make any real difference. You're going to have to aim several feet high to hit at 200 yards with a .45 no matter what loads you use. You're best off finding a load that shoots well at any range and learning to compensate for whatever drop it may have.

I can hit a man sized steel plate at 400 yards with my Savage Mark II FV (.22 LR). I have to hold over about 25 feet, though.


Im really starting to look forward to this class. Its going to be comical trying to lob bullets out there at that range!

so are yall just saying that i should go with my 820 fps 230 gr. FMJ loads and aim for the hills?

Im really more focused at hitting at 100 anyway, i think hitting at 200 is going to be more of a "lets screw around at the end of class for shits and giggles" kind of thing. Although you could definately kill a guy cold dead at that distance, it would be from sheer luck of hitting him in head and you would have to do it on the first shot cause hes sure as fuck not going to be standing still after the first one skips off the ground in front of his feet. (although, honestly a few years ago if you pointed a pistol at me from 200 yards, and i knew it / recognized the object in your hand as a gun, i probably would have laughed and stood there).

If i could pepper people with bullets at 100 and break out car windows / pop tires at 200, ill be a happy camper after this class anyway.


It's incredibly easy to hit something the size of a man at 100 yards, even with a snubby revolver. Hold up a bit of front sight on the first shot and adjust as necessary. I doubt you'll be able to hold everything in a 20" circle at 200 though if the gun doesn't like the ammo, and it's your first time shooting long range.

A load that shoots well at 25 might not at 100+.
Originally post by 2theLeft: If done right, there is no taste, because it goes right down the throat..

IM me to find out about SSA's poor customer service
AeroE
Member
Online
Posts: 26850
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/27/2010 11:20:29 AM
Originally Posted By hkusp9:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
It won't make any real difference. You're going to have to aim several feet high to hit at 200 yards with a .45 no matter what loads you use. You're best off finding a load that shoots well at any range and learning to compensate for whatever drop it may have.

I can hit a man sized steel plate at 400 yards with my Savage Mark II FV (.22 LR). I have to hold over about 25 feet, though.


Im really starting to look forward to this class. Its going to be comical trying to lob bullets out there at that range!

so are yall just saying that i should go with my 820 fps 230 gr. FMJ loads and aim for the hills?

Im really more focused at hitting at 100 anyway, i think hitting at 200 is going to be more of a "lets screw around at the end of class for shits and giggles" kind of thing. Although you could definately kill a guy cold dead at that distance, it would be from sheer luck of hitting him in head and you would have to do it on the first shot cause hes sure as fuck not going to be standing still after the first one skips off the ground in front of his feet. (although, honestly a few years ago if you pointed a pistol at me from 200 yards, and i knew it / recognized the object in your hand as a gun, i probably would have laughed and stood there).

If i could pepper people with bullets at 100 and break out car windows / pop tires at 200, ill be a happy camper after this class anyway.


If I have any idea where the bullets are landing, a man that stands still long at 200 yards is going to have a rude introduction after the second or third shot. I've shot a 9mm pistol into the Missouri river many times, and hitting logs way out there (and probably closer than I would estimate now) was not hard at all. Elmer Keith wrote about his experience with .45 ACP in "Hell, I Was There". It might be worth a look to see if he comments on the amount of hold over needed.

You probably will have fun with the long shots, but I would try to take away the trials as experience that might be useful later, too.

It's true, Obama is the Leader of Fools deluded to believe, "Everything is going to change now".
As for me, I will embrace what is Right more tightly than ever.


1 lbf = 32.174 lbm-ft/sec^2
machinisttx
machinist and highly agitated observer
Offline
Posts: 18853
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 4/27/2010 12:25:02 PM
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Originally Posted By hkusp9:
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
It won't make any real difference. You're going to have to aim several feet high to hit at 200 yards with a .45 no matter what loads you use. You're best off finding a load that shoots well at any range and learning to compensate for whatever drop it may have.

I can hit a man sized steel plate at 400 yards with my Savage Mark II FV (.22 LR). I have to hold over about 25 feet, though.


Im really starting to look forward to this class. Its going to be comical trying to lob bullets out there at that range!

so are yall just saying that i should go with my 820 fps 230 gr. FMJ loads and aim for the hills?

Im really more focused at hitting at 100 anyway, i think hitting at 200 is going to be more of a "lets screw around at the end of class for shits and giggles" kind of thing. Although you could definately kill a guy cold dead at that distance, it would be from sheer luck of hitting him in head and you would have to do it on the first shot cause hes sure as fuck not going to be standing still after the first one skips off the ground in front of his feet. (although, honestly a few years ago if you pointed a pistol at me from 200 yards, and i knew it / recognized the object in your hand as a gun, i probably would have laughed and stood there).

If i could pepper people with bullets at 100 and break out car windows / pop tires at 200, ill be a happy camper after this class anyway.


If I have any idea where the bullets are landing, a man that stands still long at 200 yards is going to have a rude introduction after the second or third shot. I've shot a 9mm pistol into the Missouri river many times, and hitting logs way out there (and probably closer than I would estimate now) was not hard at all. Elmer Keith wrote about his experience with .45 ACP in "Hell, I Was There". It might be worth a look to see if he comments on the amount of hold over needed.

You probably will have fun with the long shots, but I would try to take away the trials as experience that might be useful later, too.



He had quite a bit to say about both the 9mm and .45 ACP in Sixguns. He took jackrabbits with a target sighted 1917 S&W out past 100 yards. I don't recall any specific mentions of holdover, but what worked for him is unlikely to work for anyone else due to differences in grip pressure, grip shape, etc..

Originally post by 2theLeft: If done right, there is no taste, because it goes right down the throat..

IM me to find out about SSA's poor customer service
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2