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strokethebigtree
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Posted: 12/18/2009 2:25:28 PM EST
Hi everyone,

I'm new to the reloading scene and I just started off with reloading .45ACP using a Lee classic loader, and I've come across some issues. Paraphrasing, I reloaded 8 rounds of .45, each with a length of 1.24-1.25" total length. When I tried cycling them through my 1911 (with it pointed in a safe direction, of course), I noticed all of the bullets got seated in deeper into the casing, some dropping to a total length of as short as 1.14".

Are the rounds still safe to shoot even with the bullet jammed in so deep? And is this normal? What can I do to (and should I) prevent this? Thanks in advance.
JedYonkers
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:17:49 PM EST
You maybe over flaring your case mouths. back the die out a bit and try again . You may also need to adjust the seating die to crimp a little tighter.
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WizzBang07
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:28:40 PM EST
If the bullets are seated to far into the case, an overpressure can result. It is best to pull those bullets and reload them. I don't know much about pistol reloading but you can probably get a crimp die for 45ACP and lightly crimp the brass around the bullet.
strokethebigtree
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:45:38 PM EST
I thought it might have been because I didn't crimp the casing like as the instructions said, but the Lee Classic instructions specifically said to not crimp the case on .45ACP. Should I go ahead and crimp them?
1911smith
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:47:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 3:54:19 PM EST by 1911smith]
Do yourself a huge favor.... buy a Lee Factory Crimp die... check the diamater of your rounds after seating.... I'm betting big that your diamater is too wide. I seat with the bullet seater and crimp with factory crimp die... Otherwise your going to need a consistant OAL for feed reliability.

ETA: and yes you need a good crimp to avoid set back, especially in a semi auto.
ETA to ETA: The problem crimping with bullet seating die is that it's meant to roll crimp. Roll crimping is good for revolvers but not semi-autos.
Disclaimer: The advice of this poster is that of an amateur, not a professional. Meanining his advice might be shit.. not full of shit as some professionals you might know.
kingston_fisher
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:55:11 PM EST
Just to make sure we are all on the same page, I think the OP is using the lee classic loader where use use a rubber mallet to size the cases. He isn't using a 3 or 4 die pistol set in a single stage press.

The Lee classic loader is great for neck sizing and reloading rifle brass but I wouldn't reccomend using one for pistol rounds over a cheap single stage or hand press with a 3 die set.

I think the last stage of using the lee loader is to flip the die body over and use the other side of the die to crimp the bullet. If it is like the ones I have for rifle brass you will need to give it a light to moderate whack with a mallet to get a good crimp. From the description I don't think he is crimping the bullet enough or at all.

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strokethebigtree
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:56:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 3:57:59 PM EST by strokethebigtree]
So should I try roll-crimping the .45ACP's as provided in the Lee Classic design? I really want to try some reloads ASAP. Would roll-crimping the cartridges cause failures, mundane or catastrophic?

EDIT: Yes, I am not crimping the cases at all, because the instructions explicitly say, "Do not crimp 30 M-1 carbine, 38ACP and Super, 45ACP, and 9mm Luger. These headspace on the end of the case and a crimp would be harmful."
joedapro
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:57:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 4:00:55 PM EST by joedapro]
Originally Posted By strokethebigtree:
Hi everyone,

I'm new to the reloading scene and I just started off with reloading .45ACP using a Lee classic loader, and I've come across some issues. Paraphrasing, I reloaded 8 rounds of .45, each with a length of 1.24-1.25" total length. When I tried cycling them through my 1911 (with it pointed in a safe direction, of course), I noticed all of the bullets got seated in deeper into the casing, some dropping to a total length of as short as 1.14".

Are the rounds still safe to shoot even with the bullet jammed in so deep? And is this normal? What can I do to (and should I) prevent this? Thanks in advance.



i haven't worked with a lee loader in 35 years. is there a way to adjust the crimp? perhaps it is too loose. 45 acp uses the taper crimp and head spaces on the case mouth so you can't use a roll crimp.

have you used your barrel as a chamber checker? i guess i am trying to suggest you break your gun down and just using the barrel, drop each cartridge in to see if it fits. if it fits fine, then the bullet is being compressed into the case during its trip up the feed ramp.

what bullet are you using? what is the bullet profile? lead or jacketed. what 1911? polished feed ramp? what does the manual suggest as the cartridge overall length? what powder? charge weight? this all matters when giving advice as to whether or not your cartridge is safe to shoot.

if you are any where near long island i would be willing to help you out. drop me a message.
1911smith
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Posted: 12/18/2009 3:59:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 4:00:57 PM EST by 1911smith]
no.... roll crimping won't cause a catostrophic failure.. just watch your round diameter in relation to your chamber. It really helps feedability if all your cases have the same height to avoid buckling cases. The above posters information is dead on.
Disclaimer: The advice of this poster is that of an amateur, not a professional. Meanining his advice might be shit.. not full of shit as some professionals you might know.
strokethebigtree
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Posted: 12/18/2009 4:00:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By joedapro:
i haven't worked with a lee loader in 35 years. is there a way to adjust the crimp? perhaps it is too loose. 45 acp uses the taper crimp and head spaces on the case mouth so you can't use a roll crimp.

have you used your barrel as a chamber checker? i guess i am trying to suggest you break your gun down and just using the barrel, drop each cartridge in to see if it fits. if it fits fine, then the bullet is being compressed into the case during its trip up the feed ramp.

what bullet are you using? what is the bullet profile? lead or jacketed. what 1911? polished feed ramp? what does the manual suggest as the cartridge overall length? what powder? charge weight? this all matters when giving advice as to whether or not your cartridge is safe to shoot.


I'm using the Rainier Ballistics FMJ, 230gr. Tried it in a Kimber TLE-II (which has functioned perfectly with factory ammo since day 1), and the manual suggested a minimum OAL of 1.19". Powder is HS6, charge weight is 7gr, as specified in the Lee Loader manual.
joedapro
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Posted: 12/18/2009 4:28:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By strokethebigtree:
Originally Posted By joedapro:
i haven't worked with a lee loader in 35 years. is there a way to adjust the crimp? perhaps it is too loose. 45 acp uses the taper crimp and head spaces on the case mouth so you can't use a roll crimp.

have you used your barrel as a chamber checker? i guess i am trying to suggest you break your gun down and just using the barrel, drop each cartridge in to see if it fits. if it fits fine, then the bullet is being compressed into the case during its trip up the feed ramp.

what bullet are you using? what is the bullet profile? lead or jacketed. what 1911? polished feed ramp? what does the manual suggest as the cartridge overall length? what powder? charge weight? this all matters when giving advice as to whether or not your cartridge is safe to shoot.


I'm using the Rainier Ballistics FMJ, 230gr. Tried it in a Kimber TLE-II (which has functioned perfectly with factory ammo since day 1), and the manual suggested a minimum OAL of 1.19". Powder is HS6, charge weight is 7gr, as specified in the Lee Loader manual.


what is the range for the hs6? are you at the min or maximum? if you are at or close to the minimum charge you should be ok. remember the plated bullets you are loading produce less friction than jacketed bullets. this is why you use cast bullet data for plated bullets.

not having a lee loader in 45 acp handy, i can't advise you on the method for crimping but if the crimp system is a roll crimp then give it a mild roll crimp. just a light tap with the mallet. this should provide sufficient crimp retention. remember the 45 acp is supposed to head space on the case mouth –– but –– just about every 45 acp is actually head spaced by the extractor. so a mild roll crimp will be ok. just don't go overboard.

where in new york are you?



ma96782
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Posted: 12/19/2009 7:13:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/19/2009 9:08:51 AM EST by ma96782]
IMHO for .45 ACP........

IF, you know how to use/adjust your three die set correctly. You don't NEED a Lee FCD.

Die Adjustments, How to..........

http://www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm

So........LEARN. If you still find it too difficult...........well, go ahead and spend the money on a FCD (it's your money).

________________________________

BTW...........the crimp that you're looking for on a .45 ACP is a "taper crimp" NOT a roll crimp (which is usually for revolver cartridges).


Q. What is the difference between a roll crimp and a taper crimp?

A. With a roll crimp the seater die actually rolls a very small portion of the case mouth into the bullet cannelure. If the seater die is set too low or the bullet does not have a cannelure, the die will attempt to form the crimp. However, it may turn too much of the case mouth in, or eliminate space to roll the neck into, which will distort or crush the case. The taper crimp die actually squeezes the case around the bullet. There should not be any indentation or other indication of a visible crimp. The die merely removes the bell from the case mouth that was used to ease seating of the bullet and pushes the case mouth parallel to the bullet. Anymore than that and the die begins to push down on the case wall and causes a bulge, preventing it from chambering.

Taken from: The RCBS web site.

Line Drawing- crimps..........(Q. What is the difference between a roll crimp and a taper crimp?)

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellg.htm#crimp

Pic- .38 Special roll crimped vs. 45 ACP taper crimp (almost to the bottom of the page)......

www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/frc_ataurus1911/index.asp



Then...........the manufacturers of dies will make their standard three dies set with the final product in mind. They know that most of use use .45 ACP in auto loading pistols. So, when the die is manufactured they take that into consideration and when properly adjusted the die will deliver a good "taper crimp" (for auto pistol ammo) or "roll crimp" (in the case of revolver ammo).

Thus, it goes back to KNOWING HOW TO make the correct adjustment(s).
________________________________

Then............

DID YOU KNOW that the .45 ACP through a M1911 may take "some tuning" to get things reliable?

That's RIGHT..........the M1911 was made with "military ball ammo" in mind. So IF you want to use anything else, you may have problems.

So........your reloads may need to me tuned to your pistol OR you may need to tune your pistol, at some point.

But for now..............let's stick with your reloads. BTW.........you never mentioned the bullet that you were using.

And, for someone starting out........well, it's a good idea to copy a KNOWN.

Can I ASSUME that you're attempting to make a copy of US MIlitary ball ammo?

Anyway, check out some of these measurements I took awhile back.............



Humm......you got me thinking (dangerous)........so, I measured a variety of different 45ACP rounds. I got these for FREE w/o the boxes.

NEW WW silver colored HP
1.213"
1.212"
1.206"
1.211"
1.215"

NEW WW black colored HP
1.208"
1.209"
1.209"
1.209"
1.209"

*NEW WW SWC Jacketed looks like the Match 185 gr.
1.185"
1.184"
1.184"
1.183"
1.184"


NEW FED SWC Jacketed looks like the Match 185 gr.
1.265"
1.263"
1.264"
1.265"
1.265"

NEW FED FMJ 230 gr.
1.265"
1.265"
1.266"
1.267"
1.268"

CCI Blazer FMJ 230 gr.
1.260"

And my RE-Loads 200 gr. LSWC
1.236"
1.246"
1.248"
1.243"
1.250"

FYI.......and the ONLY cartridge that DIDN'T PASS my M1911 barrel hood test is noted *in red. The case head stood a little higher than the barrel hood extension. YES, even though the OAL is shorter……it actually was too long and sat higher than the barrel hood extension (the actual bullet shape made the difference).


So, what do you think about YOUR COAL? Then agian, like I said.............you never mentioned what bullet you were using.
________________________________

Then............

Do you know about the barrel hood test?



Barrel Hood Test


Seating depth can be determined by dropping a loaded round into the chamber of the barrel. The barrel must be removed from the gun, and held with the chamber facing up. The back of the cartridge case should just line up with the hood of the barrel, but not project up above the edge of the barrel hood. Adjust the seating down a bit at a time, checking the round in the barrel until the back of the cartridge case just lines up with the hood of the barrel. Crimping is also a critical factor in loading for a parallel sided “rimless’ case.


Pictures of the test (almost to the bottom of the page)...........

http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/frc_ataurus1911/index.asp

I've used that test for my 2700 match ammo. It's not a 100% guarantee but, as I mentioned before.......some TUNING may be needed.



________________________________

OK..........that all being said............

YOUR rounds need to be crimped well (so it won't telescope back into the case) and take another look at your COAL.

Aloha, Mark

PS.............OK I see that you subsequently posted that you were using Rainier Ballistics FMJ 230 gr. bullets. IF they are "PLATED BULLETS"..............be careful.

As for your pistol..........well, you do know about "break in"........right. And, not all pistols are the same. A reload may function perfectly well in one M1911 style pistol and that same reload may give you trouble in another. The same can be said about some factory ammo.

Anyway........most people will use factory rounds to break in a new firearm. And, NEW reloaders will usually attempt to mimic a good "Factory Load/Round." Then.......TUNING might still be needed.


"Guns don't kill people......the Government does."

Dale Dribble
ma96782
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Posted: 12/19/2009 8:06:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/19/2009 9:11:23 AM EST by ma96782]
OK I didn't read this thread very closely............

So, you said LEE Classic Loader........

Are you really using this?

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1261245930.4920=/html/catalog/cleeloader.html

Not that there is anything wrong with it.

BUT IF you are........IMHO, seriously consider an up grade for more production. Pistols tend to use up a lot of ammo.

Aloha, Mark

PS.........my post above (about die adjustments) was meant more for the reloader using a standard press and dies, NOT a LEE Classic Loader. I've never owned or used a LEE Classic Loader. So, I have no idea about how to get a good "taper crimp" with it.

BUT, regardless of the method you use to reload.............IMHO, you should be striving for a good taper crimp with .45 ACP ammo.







"Guns don't kill people......the Government does."

Dale Dribble