Author
Message
JosephTurrisi
Offline
Posts: 190
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 8/24/2009 4:28:48 PM EST
I am going to reload some 223 and was wondering what is everyone opinion for the best bullet to load for a shtf situation. The rifles use would be a 16" car hbar and a 20" hbar I all ready have some m855,m193, and 55gr vmax. I am looking for a hard hitting good all around use round and am interested in the hives ideas.
rn22723
Team Member
Offline
Posts: 5514
Feedback: 100% (16)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/24/2009 5:00:37 PM EST
Why not just go and work up a load using OTM 77gr Nosler or Sierra.......the Sierra can be had with a factory cannelure.........or look at the Hornady 75gr OTM. My suggestion would be TAC, CCI 450 Primer........and the Sierra
jme and I am a NRA Endowment Member

Don't be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better.
R W Emerson
Artifex
Team Member
Offline
Posts: 984
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/24/2009 5:15:29 PM EST
Hornady 68 OTM, Sierra 69 match king
...While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
MikeinGA
Offline
Posts: 565
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/24/2009 5:30:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By JosephTurrisi:
I am going to reload some 223 and was wondering what is everyone opinion for the best bullet to load for a shtf situation. The rifles use would be a 16" car hbar and a 20" hbar I all ready have some m855,m193, and 55gr vmax. I am looking for a hard hitting good all around use round and am interested in the hives ideas.


I have a AR CAR with a 16" barrel with 1 in 9 twist. The Hornady 60 gr V-MAX with H4895 works great for me, sub mao's. With a 55gr bullet a slower burning powder (ie, H322) would work better with a 1 in 9 or a 1 in 8 twist. That's IMHO.


Mike

CBR900
Offline
Posts: 4758
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/25/2009 4:54:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2009 4:54:48 AM EST by CBR900]
Best round in the field these days are using the heavy SMK MK IIs WITH the cannalure; seat to the cannalure and CRIMP like Black Hills does. That should be your focus.
Overton-AR
Member
Offline
Posts: 372
Feedback: 100% (83)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:34:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2009 5:34:51 AM EST by Overton-AR]
Originally Posted By MikeinGA:
Originally Posted By JosephTurrisi:
I am going to reload some 223 and was wondering what is everyone opinion for the best bullet to load for a shtf situation. The rifles use would be a 16" car hbar and a 20" hbar I all ready have some m855,m193, and 55gr vmax. I am looking for a hard hitting good all around use round and am interested in the hives ideas.


I have a AR CAR with a 16" barrel with 1 in 9 twist. The Hornady 60 gr V-MAX with H4895 works great for me, sub mao's. With a 55gr bullet a slower burning powder (ie, H322) would work better with a 1 in 9 or a 1 in 8 twist. That's IMHO.


Mike



I agree with all of this, except H322 is one of the faster powders. (IIRC) Hodgdon BLC2 would be slower or even slower and better yet would be Hodgdon 335 or Ramshot TAC.
"Liberals are just little kids who never grew up!!"
StewartTR
Member
Offline
Posts: 1828
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/25/2009 6:29:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2009 6:30:21 AM EST by StewartTR]
If you have a 1 in 7 the I say the Hornady 75gn OTM or the Nosler 77gn. The Siera 77 does not fragment as fast has the Nosler.

If you have a 1 in 9 you may be ok with the 75/77 but if not the get the Siera 69gn OTM as it's performs better than the Hornady 68gn.
Skg_Mre_Lght
Expatriated Southerner
Offline
Posts: 2191
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/25/2009 6:52:06 AM EST
My SHTF bullet is the Barnes TSX...unlike the Match bullets, such as the Sierra Matchking, and FMJ such as M-193 spec bullets, or Hornady FMJ BT w/c, the TSX was designed with terminal performance in mind. The problem with Match bullets is that they were designed to punch paper, and be very accurate, and what happens to the bullet after those two criteria is not really even in the thought process of the manufacturer. The reason that SMKs are so popular with SOCOM and other units is that it still conforms with the Geneva Convention and Hague CHronicles, which prohibit the use of expanding (or dum-dum bullets) for use in battle, and this is the best compromise over a FMJ bullet. The TSX, and other hunting bullets, on the other hand, make terminal performance priority, with accuracy coming in a very close second. Having used TSX bullets on various game, in various calibers, I can tell you that they are tough, will not break apart when hitting bone, or auto glass, for that matter, and expand reliably.

Just my $.02
virtus junxit mors non separabit
HBruns
كاف's can jihad, too!
Offline
Posts: 5261
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/25/2009 7:07:13 AM EST
In my opinion, LOTS of ammo is a critical factor in a SHTF situation.... even more important than using the "best" bullet.

With this in mind, I recommend a MilSurp bullet. They can be had cheaper than premium bullets, and they are much easier to buy in quantity. I prefer a 55-gn M193 type bullet over the 62-gn M855 type bullet. With the 55-gn bullet you have a decent chance it will penetrate and break in two rather than just punch a clean hole.

After you get a sufficient supply of SHTF ammo, then worry about terminal performance..... As mentioned, the Barnes TSX would be a favorite. The downside is they are expensive!
[Makarov_Mami, 3/30/09]
And do NOT slide your hand into your wife's panties with habanero on your fingers, either. Or eat a habanero and then get your mouth anywhere near the pink bits.

EVER.
sherdog16
Offline
Posts: 236
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/25/2009 10:12:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
My SHTF bullet is the Barnes TSX...unlike the Match bullets, such as the Sierra Matchking, and FMJ such as M-193 spec bullets, or Hornady FMJ BT w/c, the TSX was designed with terminal performance in mind. The problem with Match bullets is that they were designed to punch paper, and be very accurate, and what happens to the bullet after those two criteria is not really even in the thought process of the manufacturer. The reason that SMKs are so popular with SOCOM and other units is that it still conforms with the Geneva Convention and Hague CHronicles, which prohibit the use of expanding (or dum-dum bullets) for use in battle, and this is the best compromise over a FMJ bullet. The TSX, and other hunting bullets, on the other hand, make terminal performance priority, with accuracy coming in a very close second. Having used TSX bullets on various game, in various calibers, I can tell you that they are tough, will not break apart when hitting bone, or auto glass, for that matter, and expand reliably.

Just my $.02


FWIW It's my understanding that you WANT fragmentation and not weight retention when,for lack of better words, shooting people. I also believe that those bullets were meant to penetrate thick tough animals without ruining a lot of meat, the opposite of what we're looking for.

On that note it's common belief that 75gr Hornady OTMs are among the best for fragmentation. I would recommend you read the Ammo Oracle for "better" info than you'll get here. .02
Skg_Mre_Lght
Expatriated Southerner
Offline
Posts: 2192
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/25/2009 4:53:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2009 5:10:03 PM EST by Skg_Mre_Lght]
Nah...I have read through the ammo oracle, and hunting bullets are meant to kill game, not save meat, which is why hunters know bullet placement is critical. I will stick with bullets that were designed to expand reliably, not fragment due to outside forces not dreamed of during the design phase of a bullet. On that note, although the AO has good information, it is not the be all, end all of bullet performance...ballistic gelatin is not real flesh and bone, just a reasonable facsimile thereof. I would like to add that your average southern white tail deer is similar in size through the chest cavity as a full grown male human, and "fragmenting" bullets are shunned as poor performers on deer sized game and up. I stand by my belief that match bullets are, when used outside of their design parameters, a compromise, and there are better bullets designed to make a large permanent wound cavity.


ETA - The part about weight retention is a little more critical than one would think...it is the driving force behind the bullet. Ever notice how everyone has a "Bonded" pistol bullet that is supposed to perform better through light barriers, such as auto glass? I mean, even the vaunted Ranger T bullets now have a bonded line-up. You hit a bone with a bullet that relies on fragmentation as an incapacitation mechanism, and it is more than likely game over for that shot. Will it kill the person? Maybe. Will it reach the vitals? Maybe. I know that the likelyhood of a hunting bullet reaching the vitals after hitting a human bone is far higher than that of a bullet that fragments. We never know if we are going to be put into a situation that we will have to defend our lives, or that of a loved one, and we don't know if we will get more than one shot at it. I would like to send a package downrange that will likely perform within it's design parameters, and perform the way I want it to.

Originally Posted By sherdog16:
Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
My SHTF bullet is the Barnes TSX...unlike the Match bullets, such as the Sierra Matchking, and FMJ such as M-193 spec bullets, or Hornady FMJ BT w/c, the TSX was designed with terminal performance in mind. The problem with Match bullets is that they were designed to punch paper, and be very accurate, and what happens to the bullet after those two criteria is not really even in the thought process of the manufacturer. The reason that SMKs are so popular with SOCOM and other units is that it still conforms with the Geneva Convention and Hague CHronicles, which prohibit the use of expanding (or dum-dum bullets) for use in battle, and this is the best compromise over a FMJ bullet. The TSX, and other hunting bullets, on the other hand, make terminal performance priority, with accuracy coming in a very close second. Having used TSX bullets on various game, in various calibers, I can tell you that they are tough, will not break apart when hitting bone, or auto glass, for that matter, and expand reliably.

Just my $.02


FWIW It's my understanding that you WANT fragmentation and not weight retention when,for lack of better words, shooting people. I also believe that those bullets were meant to penetrate thick tough animals without ruining a lot of meat, the opposite of what we're looking for.

On that note it's common belief that 75gr Hornady OTMs are among the best for fragmentation. I would recommend you read the Ammo Oracle for "better" info than you'll get here. .02


virtus junxit mors non separabit
sherdog16
Offline
Posts: 237
Feedback: 100% (12)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 5:06:47 AM EST
Fair enough. I'll buy that for the most part
JSG
Offline
Posts: 341
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 5:27:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By HBruns:
In my opinion, LOTS of ammo is a critical factor in a SHTF situation.... even more important than using the "best" bullet.

With this in mind, I recommend a MilSurp bullet. They can be had cheaper than premium bullets, and they are much easier to buy in quantity. I prefer a 55-gn M193 type bullet over the 62-gn M855 type bullet. With the 55-gn bullet you have a decent chance it will penetrate and break in two rather than just punch a clean hole.



1 in 9 = 55
1 in 7 = 62
I agree that SHTF requires a lot of good ammo in my mind. The Hornady 55 FMJBT with cannalure will shoot right at 1 inch (110 yards) in my toys and Zombies require multiple hits no matter which bullet you choose.
RareBear
Offline
Posts: 146
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 7:17:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By HBruns:
Zombies require multiple hits no matter which bullet you choose.


There may be some truth to that statment. From an account of events in 1969, "MarineSniper" , by Charles Henderson, p. 238-239.
JamesP81
Member
Offline
Posts: 3384
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 11:53:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2009 12:02:32 PM EST by JamesP81]
Out of a 16 inch barrel, the Hornady 55gr soft points with cannelure would be my choice. They don't rely on velocity for expansion, are cheap, and reasonably accurate. Load up to max velocity with TAC, 748, or BL-C2.

ETA: Widener's sells the Hornady 55gr soft points for $83 per thousand. The 55gr FMJ-BT (an M193 type bullet) sells for $82 per thousand. For SHTF ammo, I wouldn't even consider an FMJ or open tip match bullet (such as Sierra Matchkings, or Hornady 68gr BTHP).
JamesP81
Member
Offline
Posts: 3385
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 11:58:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
My SHTF bullet is the Barnes TSX...unlike the Match bullets, such as the Sierra Matchking, and FMJ such as M-193 spec bullets, or Hornady FMJ BT w/c, the TSX was designed with terminal performance in mind. The problem with Match bullets is that they were designed to punch paper, and be very accurate, and what happens to the bullet after those two criteria is not really even in the thought process of the manufacturer. The reason that SMKs are so popular with SOCOM and other units is that it still conforms with the Geneva Convention and Hague CHronicles, which prohibit the use of expanding (or dum-dum bullets) for use in battle, and this is the best compromise over a FMJ bullet. The TSX, and other hunting bullets, on the other hand, make terminal performance priority, with accuracy coming in a very close second. Having used TSX bullets on various game, in various calibers, I can tell you that they are tough, will not break apart when hitting bone, or auto glass, for that matter, and expand reliably.

Just my $.02


+1.

OP, you didn't sign the Hague Convention. The SMK bullets are poor terminal performers compared to soft points, hollow points, or other dedicated hunting bullets. The military uses them because they are bound by a treaty that you aren't.

As I stated before, a good low cost option is the Hornady 55gr soft point with cannelure. The TSX is even better, but more costly. Also better but more costly is the Winchester 64 grain power point, which is a bullet that really thinks it's a 243 instead of a 223.

The Winchester 64gr power point is also used a lot by law enforcement, which also isn't bound by the Hague Convention.

A good but very expensive option would be the Speer 55gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC). Reliable expansion and excellent penetration. Also take a look at some of the Nosler Ballistic Tips.
JosephTurrisi
Offline
Posts: 194
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:03:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By rn22723:
Why not just go and work up a load using OTM 77gr Nosler or Sierra.......the Sierra can be had with a factory cannelure.........or look at the Hornady 75gr OTM. My suggestion would be TAC, CCI 450 Primer........and the Sierra


What is meant by OTM as I did not see anything like that listed at Midway or Hornadys web site or my Midway catalog.
Scotts556
Offline
Posts: 130
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:44:56 PM EST
open tiped match

Barnes triple shock is what i would use
JosephTurrisi
Offline
Posts: 197
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 4:25:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By Scotts556:
open tiped match

Barnes triple shock is what i would use


Thanks
JamesP81
Member
Offline
Posts: 3389
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 4:52:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2009 4:53:30 PM EST by JamesP81]
Originally Posted By JosephTurrisi:
Originally Posted By rn22723:
Why not just go and work up a load using OTM 77gr Nosler or Sierra.......the Sierra can be had with a factory cannelure.........or look at the Hornady 75gr OTM. My suggestion would be TAC, CCI 450 Primer........and the Sierra


What is meant by OTM as I did not see anything like that listed at Midway or Hornadys web site or my Midway catalog.


OTM = Open tip match

OTM bullets are technically hollowpoints, but they are hollowpoints in appearance only. They don't expand like hollowpoints. They behave more like FMJ upon impact. Examples of OTM bullets would be any of the Sierra Matchkings, or the Hornady 68gr BTHP.
AZspirit
Offline
Posts: 249
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/26/2009 5:12:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
Nah...I have read through the ammo oracle, and hunting bullets are meant to kill game, not save meat, which is why hunters know bullet placement is critical. I will stick with bullets that were designed to expand reliably, not fragment due to outside forces not dreamed of during the design phase of a bullet. On that note, although the AO has good information, it is not the be all, end all of bullet performance...ballistic gelatin is not real flesh and bone, just a reasonable facsimile thereof. I would like to add that your average southern white tail deer is similar in size through the chest cavity as a full grown male human, and "fragmenting" bullets are shunned as poor performers on deer sized game and up. I stand by my belief that match bullets are, when used outside of their design parameters, a compromise, and there are better bullets designed to make a large permanent wound cavity.


ETA - The part about weight retention is a little more critical than one would think...it is the driving force behind the bullet. Ever notice how everyone has a "Bonded" pistol bullet that is supposed to perform better through light barriers, such as auto glass? I mean, even the vaunted Ranger T bullets now have a bonded line-up. You hit a bone with a bullet that relies on fragmentation as an incapacitation mechanism, and it is more than likely game over for that shot. Will it kill the person? Maybe. Will it reach the vitals? Maybe. I know that the likelyhood of a hunting bullet reaching the vitals after hitting a human bone is far higher than that of a bullet that fragments. We never know if we are going to be put into a situation that we will have to defend our lives, or that of a loved one, and we don't know if we will get more than one shot at it. I would like to send a package downrange that will likely perform within it's design parameters, and perform the way I want it to.

Originally Posted By sherdog16:
Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
My SHTF bullet is the Barnes TSX...unlike the Match bullets, such as the Sierra Matchking, and FMJ such as M-193 spec bullets, or Hornady FMJ BT w/c, the TSX was designed with terminal performance in mind. The problem with Match bullets is that they were designed to punch paper, and be very accurate, and what happens to the bullet after those two criteria is not really even in the thought process of the manufacturer. The reason that SMKs are so popular with SOCOM and other units is that it still conforms with the Geneva Convention and Hague CHronicles, which prohibit the use of expanding (or dum-dum bullets) for use in battle, and this is the best compromise over a FMJ bullet. The TSX, and other hunting bullets, on the other hand, make terminal performance priority, with accuracy coming in a very close second. Having used TSX bullets on various game, in various calibers, I can tell you that they are tough, will not break apart when hitting bone, or auto glass, for that matter, and expand reliably.

Just my $.02


FWIW It's my understanding that you WANT fragmentation and not weight retention when,for lack of better words, shooting people. I also believe that those bullets were meant to penetrate thick tough animals without ruining a lot of meat, the opposite of what we're looking for.

On that note it's common belief that 75gr Hornady OTMs are among the best for fragmentation. I would recommend you read the Ammo Oracle for "better" info than you'll get here. .02





Skg_Mre_Lght

You are spot on the otm's were not designed to perform as a defensive bullet, I am a avid hunter and have used a wide variety bullets as a reloader since 1980 I tried the match bullets in several calibers and never had good luck with terminal ballistics but accuracy was good. With partitioned bullets & tapered jacket bullets that are bonded terminal performance is better depending on velocity and if bone was struck or not. I used the Barnes X with good results but the TSX with the fouling grooves are much better as far as copper build up in the bore accuracy is good. Actual performance on game with the SMK 77gr. Is pretty weak from an 18” ar-15 on coyotes and big antelope jack rabbits it kills them but nothing spectacular. using the TSX 53gr. Flat base or a Nosler 55gr. Ballistic tip now you get instant devastation and explosive results with the Barnes not as explosive as the Nosler but it has traveled from the pucker hole to the base of the skull before exiting on a big coyote and internal organs near the bullet path are bruised or ruptured. So the military can use the best bullet they are allowed but I will not restrict my self. I don’t have any experience with the Hordany or Nosler match bullets but I would expect them to perform like the SMK 77gr.
sleepercaprice1
Member
Offline
Posts: 2471
Feedback: 100% (11)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/27/2009 1:51:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Out of a 16 inch barrel, the Hornady 55gr soft points with cannelure would be my choice. They don't rely on velocity for expansion, are cheap, and reasonably accurate. Load up to max velocity with TAC, 748, or BL-C2.

ETA: Widener's sells the Hornady 55gr soft points for $83 per thousand. The 55gr FMJ-BT (an M193 type bullet) sells for $82 per thousand. For SHTF ammo, I wouldn't even consider an FMJ or open tip match bullet (such as Sierra Matchkings, or Hornady 68gr BTHP).


+1. I have found the Hornady 55 SP to be very accurate. They should be very good defensive bullets. They are designed to expand.

fefu23
Offline
Posts: 617
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/27/2009 3:00:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By JosephTurrisi:
I am going to reload some 223 and was wondering what is everyone opinion for the best bullet to load for a shtf situation. The rifles use would be a 16" car hbar and a 20" hbar I all ready have some m855,m193, and 55gr vmax. I am looking for a hard hitting good all around use round and am interested in the hives ideas.


are you looking to punch holes in body armor or blow a whole thru a deer?
fefu23
Offline
Posts: 618
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/27/2009 3:05:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By JosephTurrisi:
Originally Posted By rn22723:
Why not just go and work up a load using OTM 77gr Nosler or Sierra.......the Sierra can be had with a factory cannelure.........or look at the Hornady 75gr OTM. My suggestion would be TAC, CCI 450 Primer........and the Sierra


What is meant by OTM as I did not see anything like that listed at Midway or Hornadys web site or my Midway catalog.


OTM = Open tip match

OTM bullets are technically hollowpoints, but they are hollowpoints in appearance only. They don't expand like hollowpoints. They behave more like FMJ upon impact. Examples of OTM bullets would be any of the Sierra Matchkings, or the Hornady 68gr BTHP.


word!, that is one thing that the faggot dems dont understand

we use to use them in sniper rounds but switched due to them being "hollow points"

in my mind i would rather have a otm than a fmj to penetrate armor, thicker jacket from what i hear

ECS
Offline
Posts: 4653
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 8/27/2009 3:19:34 AM EST
Maybe a Nosler Partition.