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Tacked GSG/ATI vs H&K the Poll (Page 1 of 2)
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Posted: 9/23/2009 9:42:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ATICSR_Christopher]
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 10:53:54 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 11:01:14 AM EDT
[#2]
I think it's lame HK is suing, they are but hurt they didn't come out with a .22lr first. I wish you guys the best and I truly hope there is reasonableness in the litigation and it's outcome.

One interesting thing to me is this, if you guys lost the case and and no more GSG's were allowed to be sold in the U.S. where does that place the value of the GSG's current owners have Do we foresee the price of existing GSG's to increase in value

And lastly I am still assuming even if the outcome is not in your favor are you going to continue to have Ray and the others work on them no matter what problems arise even though you would not currently be selling them
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 11:05:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ATICSR_Christopher] [#3]
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 11:27:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: haLfLiFe] [#4]
Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:

And thanks for getting in on this right away Halflife, I had a feeling you'd be up first ;)


No problem, I am usually the one to stick my head in first. I appreciate the honesty you have given surrounding my questions. I do wish you guys the best and look forward to seeing this thread update as info becomes available
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 11:39:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: REDMASTA] [#5]
The H&K lawsuit is ridiculous. It is just another display of how little they care about the civilian market. Its funny because isn't the purpose of a trade dress to prevent people from buying something under the belief that it is something else? First of all, HK does not even sell the MP5 to civilians. Secondly you have to be a complete moron to confuse a GSG or a clone as an HK. With their thinking I guess there must be thousands of people buying DPMS AR-15's thinking they are Colt's since they look 100% identical. Give me a break GSG is not using their logos or calling it an MP5 so there is no way anyone with an IQ above 50 would think for a second it was an HK. I find it unfortunate that in America people and companies can sue without consequence. Big companies like HK who are in the wrong can muscle around smaller companies because they have the money and time to do so.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 12:22:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Im not sure of the details of the law suit, but heres what I think............

I'd say 99% of all who have bought a GSG, bought it because it looks cool (like a MP5) and because they cant afford a H&K.  So H&K cant look at the current GSG buying craze as potential lost customers. If anything, the GSG would stir interest in the customers that could actually afford a real H&K.............So, IMO H&K should look at this as 1- copy is the purest form of flattery, 2- a free market anallisis for if they ever come out with thier own .22 version (which would have great potetial, even if cost slightly more)

If H&K proceeds with the law suit, whether they win or lose, it will not be good for them.......Most people will read between the lines and see it as H&K being greedy, jealous or just plain jerks .......even if thats not H&K's intentions.

So do the "right" thing H&K.......Take a bow for your awesome design.......then re-direct your law suit resources to making a Badass .22lr or an affordable 9mm/.45acp version.......(or a .40, 5.7, .17hmr, etc.), imagine a .17hmr w/ 50rd banana mags for $799 +/-

DB&G
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 12:35:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Bottom line where you lie on the issue......HK didnt step up to the market and fill the void or " match the hatch".....therefore a great company like gsg made a play and made  a helluva mark.  Until HK makes a .22lr in the mp5 series....CAPITALISM rules the US!
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 4:18:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 556sniper] [#8]
I am behind ATI all the way. Plus there customer service is second to none!  H&K is just salty because someone else outside there bubble actually produced something the civilian market wanted at a reasonable price! You know damn well if the GSG was never released here and HK marketed there own .22 MP5 first the price point would be way higher. Its funny how HK never gives 2 shits about the US civilian market, until they saw how many people actually bought a GSG5 and love it. As for the actual HK designed "clones" they are just an afterthought because no one has really been able to duplicate the real deal with reliable function. But a win in court can guarantee no one ever will. My new slogan for H&K  -some compromise others improvise-. ATI did just that and now H&K has got the sniffles! GO GSG!    Dan
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 6:50:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Looks the poll is speaking for itself
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 7:16:26 PM EDT
[#10]
HK are a bunch of asshats that sue everyone whenever their feelings are hurt.  Kick their asses ATI!  Then make a GSG FNP90!

Link Posted: 9/23/2009 7:33:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: deadduck357] [#11]
Im very pleased with my 2 GSG-5's and Im sure I couldnt and wouldnt afford a HK .22 even if it was offered. It took HK over 6 months to change my USPc from one variant to another, this was way to much time for such a minor alteration. This is more BIG company trying to squash little company crap like Colt tried with the "M-4". Its very good that you offered the GSG-5, until then the .22 market was old and all the same, boring. Good luck, to bad your having to spend much $$$$$$ defending yourselves.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 8:01:12 PM EDT
[#12]
I've got 4 gsg's....    pk, p, carbine and sd, I will back ATI all day long. good product and good customer service.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 9:03:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 775Patriot] [#13]
As far as I'm concerned HK can suck a fat one on this, I mean, come on, They are nationally known for there crap ass customer service in the civilian market.  They have never cared about the civilian market and the only reason they are raising a stink now is that they are butt hurt they didn't do it first!!!  It's still all about money to them.  ATI in my opinion has gone and continues to go above and beyond for there customers no matter who they are.  That being said, I love your products and will continue to purchase them and support you any way I can.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 9:13:28 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By 775Patriot:

As far as I'm concerned HK can suck a fat one on this, I mean, come on, They are nationally known for there crap ass customer service in the civilian market.  They have never cared about the civilian market and the only reason they are raising a stink now is that they are butt hurt they didn't do it first!!!  It's still all about money to them.  



Seems to sum it up nicely, IMO.

Link Posted: 9/23/2009 9:57:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 10:50:22 PM EDT
[#16]
I might have different feelings if the suit was over a mp7 or UMP look alike, but we are talking about old technology.  assuming that the suit is over purely cosmetic features it would seem that maybe HK needs sued over there 416 since it looks an awful lot like a few other guns which have been made for a couple years (which I also think is a ludicrous idea).
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 7:35:36 AM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:

....but....are any of the H&K supporters willing to throw in comment wise here?  




I already did...................    

No one is a bigger kool-aid drinker for H&K than *I* am. They build THE best handguns in the world, bar none! Having said that, they screwed the pooch when they got left behind on the GSG series. Much as when Federal Ordnance, etc. came out with the G3 rifle copies for 1/4 or less than what a real H&K rifle would cost, H&K could've subbed out some mfg work to do the same but didn't.  

Heck, even Armalite made their Eagle brand AR's for a long time as a cheaper alternative to their name brand AR-10's. Now there's other .308 AR makers & I don't see Armalite sueing DPMS or whomever...................    

Anyone with the sense of a gnat knows that there's no comparasion between the GSG-5L & the MP5. Do they look similiar? Certainly. Do the work the same? Are the internals the same or even similiar? Obviously we all know that question.

I own multiple H&K's & will never part with them. Having said that, I think their lawsuit is nothing more than them getting butthurt by their engineering & marketing staff by missing the boat on making an affordable .22 cal version. Tough titty said the kitty, as we used to say in the Marines.

Tell 'em to go pound sound, IMO.  

My .o2




Link Posted: 9/24/2009 8:50:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 10:47:36 AM EDT
[#19]
I think it's crazy that HK is going after paintball, airsoft and airgun manufactures in particular and real firearms manufactures to a lesser degree. Nobody is confusing these with the real deal, there is no HK trademarks on them and they are not trying to fool anybody. It is an old design that is basically unobtainable here in the US and was never available in 22 caliber. If HK was going to make these in a 22 what the hell were they waiting for? I guess for somebody smaller to take the risk to see if it would be a seller or not?!

I am just waiting for Colt or CZ or whoever to go after all the 1911, AR15, CZ75 or what have you clones out there. Get over it HK and leave these guys alone...unless you can bring HK94s back to the states, have a 22 version ready to ship, and plan on branching out to airsoft and painball.
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 12:34:14 PM EDT
[#20]
When will we know the outcome of this suit?
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 12:38:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 9/24/2009 10:00:35 PM EDT
[#22]
H & K is just doing what they need to do to ensure that none of us ever give them any business. Must be nice to be so successful that you don't care how many people you piss off.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 2:09:14 AM EDT
[#23]
did ati/gsg steal a potential mp5 customer?  no.

they don't cater to folks such as myself.  i will never be able to afford their mp5.  furthermore, it's not like a have a gun that even compares to the real deal.  what i do have is an outstandingly fun carbine modeled after the real deal.  they oughtn't cry and whine over this as THEY never offer me anything that i can afford.  period.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 3:42:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Can they really claim ownership of a shape? Seems as unlikely as Donald Trump copyrighting "You're fired"...
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 9:34:19 AM EDT
[#25]
HK can bite me.

I'd love for a real 9mm MP-5 to come my way. Pricing and silly laws regarding full-retard weapons prevent this.

GSG/ATI found a niche, and filled it. Very successfully.

Does purchasing a GSG5 dilute the trademark of HK?

Nope. Not a whit.

It makes me drool more for the real thing, but I know, and you know, we all know, it's not an MP-5.

I went to scout camp this summer with a PD range master. He's on the SWAT team and uses an MP-5 for CQB. He couldn't put the GSG5 down. We had a blast (pardon the pun) and went through 2k rounds of ..22 in our off time.

He was like a kid with a new bike, and it wasn't even his. I know he's got one now, "just for fun"

Then you start looking at customer service.

I'm told that HK has craptastic turn around times, and "Ve are HK. Ve vill fix it, ja, but you must vait until we finish conquering a small nation before ve vill" kind of attitudes.

ATI/GSG has been johnny-on-the-spot in identifying and resolving issues.

So - ATI/GSG all the way, HK can take a long walk off a short pier as far as I'm concerned.

Link Posted: 9/25/2009 9:59:26 AM EDT
[#26]
I think that the HK lawsuit is B/S. Although I'd like more details on it, I am guessing they are suing because the GSG has the same relative appearance as their MP5. The internal workings and nomencalture are totally different and nowhere does ATI/GSG claim it is an MP5....to try to push sales. It is kinda like Ford suing all the other car makers because they made cars after the model T. HK makes a product that is unattainable for the civilian market. Just cause they dick danced and dropped the ball releasing a 22 version after GSG/ATI .......is their own fault.....likely, this 22 version was inspired by the GSG and would not have come to fruition without it. After you win the suit.....counter sue for them copying your 22. I would say that is more of a realistic lawsuit than theirs.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 3:20:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MadDogDan] [#27]
PimpedGSG:  You are correct about HK suing just because the GSG "looks like" and MP5.  In fact they are suing every company who makes even a toy airsoft gun that looks like an MP5.  Very close to where I live is a shop called Iron Ridge Arms and they make, in house, here in the USA, their "own" receivers and use surpluss HK parts to sell "complete" MP style 9mm.  They are not cheap and run between $3,000 and $3,500 before tax stamp (they do not make 16" carbines, only SBR's).  They were sued by HK as well and HK wants them not only to stop making their version but want Iron Ridge to pay HK all the profits they ever made on every sale.

HK Blows
MadDog
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 10:49:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Originally Posted By Choadlywan:

Does purchasing a GSG5 dilute the trademark of HK?



Actually, I think one could make the arguement that the GSG enhances the value of the MP5 series, IMO. Rare is the hardcore gun owner whom wouldn't sleep with Rosie "where's my food?" O'Donnell for a chance at a semi MP5, never mind a full auto version.

Much like the car kits that take a fiberglass body on top of a VW, everyone with a gnat's IQ knows it ain't the real deal.  
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 10:13:36 AM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 10/10/2009 2:10:30 PM EDT
[#30]
I'll never buy an H&K product and think "looks" and design have nothing to do with each other.

I'm more concerned about your limited 2 year warranty considering the issues of durability. Though I LOVE my GSG-5 I'm afraid to put too many round through it!  Do us all a favor and put a life time warranty in writing like most manufactures.
Link Posted: 10/11/2009 1:18:25 AM EDT
[#31]
H&K is just ticked off that you had the idea to come with the design of a .22lr that shares the same platform and it sold extremely well.

I do have a USP however if H&K wins this and keeps everyone else like you guys at ATI from producing affordable products that we want, I will never touch another H&K firearm as long as i have a choice.
simple as that.


Ive had 10 times the fun with my GSG as I have my usp, and mags and parts are a heck of alot easier to find, and priced fair as well.
Link Posted: 10/13/2009 5:55:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:
Thanks to everyone for their support!


So lets hear the update on the lawsuit Chris. We are hearing that Jan. 31st is the last day to buy a GSG....is this true
Link Posted: 10/13/2009 6:00:47 PM EDT
[#33]
hearing the same, this is not good.
Link Posted: 10/13/2009 6:41:42 PM EDT
[#34]
well not to stir the pot here...............

Christopher I own quite a few h/k products and have zero problems with any warranty work from them ... none at all . i have sent my 5ds back to them after many thousands of rounds with some " unfactory modifications"  and never once did they question anything about it . they fixed it and shipped it back to my ffl guy ..........

now i have a major "warranty  as stated in a email that my problem would be repaired as it came with a 2 year warranty" . and now i am told not so . i have to pay out of pocket to get it fixed.........

MY LOYALTY STANDS WITH WHOEVER GIVES THE MOST OUTSTANDING CUSTOMER SERVICE !!

bottom line ........

you want backers and believers then give SUPERB customer srevice...........  like I have received from the other manufacturer.............
Link Posted: 10/15/2009 12:25:57 PM EDT
[#35]
screw H&K.  If they would have given a rats backside about civilian/public sales  years ago they would not be having these issues.  ATI delivered a product the public likes and will buy based in a void in the market left by HK.

HK's design is decades old and really the only beef HK has is that it looks like the same gun,  despite being a completely different animal.


If only I could boycott HK,  I would. But after refusing to sell the 416 to lowly civilians I sold all my HK stuff and vowed that I would kiss Rosie O'Donnells fat, stinking ass before I'd ever buy another HK. So I can't boycott them.

I *CAN* however influence other shooters.  I teach concealed weapons permit classes,  I am also an NRA certified instructor who spends lots of time with the young, impressionable youth in the scouting program. I am also shooting coordinator at a local range as well as being my company's "gun guy" as well as my church's "gun guy".


I will continue to talk anyone and everyone I can out of buying HK crap.  The scouts specifically,  when they shoot the GSG5 and like it want to know the history of the gun etc. I explain the MP5 and how it's a visual clone of the gun and explain that it's good companies like GSG and ATI exist so you can buy that stuff because HK would not want us owning them and refuse to sell  some guns to civilians. The scouts universally agree that sucks.


so I will continue my little one man crusade to take a small chunk out of HK whenever and wherever I can.  I know it won't matter to HK at all,  but it makes me happy.  I know I have personally cost them between 4-6 K worth of revenue by talking people out of buying their stuff and steering them towards other companies and support the civilian firearms market better.  

eventually the wars will stop, and .mil sales will slow down or dry up, and HK will be courting civilians more,  well they can suck rocks.  



screw HK.
Link Posted: 10/15/2009 7:32:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
screw H&K.  If they would have given a rats backside about civilian/public sales  years ago they would not be having these issues.  

I know I have personally cost them between 4-6 K worth of revenue by talking people out of buying their stuff and steering them towards other companies and support the civilian firearms market better.  




Care to give some specific examples of their attitude, please?

Link Posted: 10/16/2009 4:07:09 PM EDT
[#37]
H&K are just pissed because ARI beat them to the punch.
Link Posted: 10/19/2009 1:25:29 AM EDT
[#38]
I don't care for this whole mess and I wish ATI would have won the lawsuit. I know that there is a limit on patents. Why isn't there some for the looks of MP5's. Didn't they steal the design from the Spanish's CETME first? Not that the roller locking system has any influence on the GSG since its a blowback .22 lr design with some cool looks.

ATI while I love my AK's and will most likely pick up a 1911 .22 I would like to see more .22 versions of guns that you just can't find anymore. AK's are around but I haven't seen a galil or .22 UZI, mac 10, UMP or the best idea would be one that never made because they lost the war the SG-44. Any of these would be nice plinker guns to see again even in the .22 form. I finally got my MP5 even though it was through no fault of my own it turns out the makers of them don't trust the civilian market. So be it, spend all your money on law suits. I just hope that you license ATI to make a gun in your MP5's likeness even though its as old a design as the M-16 and its roots go back to before WWII which would make it an antique firearm.
Link Posted: 11/22/2009 4:44:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Mosin_Nagant] [#39]
I think the only reason HK is going after every little toy and paintball gun that looks like an MP5, is so that they can have a legitimate case against their prime target, ATI. A judge could say, "Well, why are you suing ATI, and not so-and-so for doing the same thing?".





I'm not siding with HK, nor ATI. But I can see HK's side of this, the only reason I bought a GSG-5 over a .22lr upper was because it looks like an MP5, and I can't afford the real thing. I know if I made a very popular, and expensive firearm I would be mad if someone if someone else used my design to sell their own cheaper version.




I think HK would be better suited making their own version to compete with the GSG-5, rather than a lawsuit. Being that the GSG-5 is wildly popular, the market is already defined, and all they would need to do is make a comparable version to compete with.





 
Link Posted: 11/22/2009 11:24:10 AM EDT
[#40]
HK has never viewed the civilian market with anything less than disdain, as if mere civilians can't be trusted with their "fine" firearms.  Screw them and the horse they rode in on.  It's too bad they can't be sued for violating anti-trust laws or something like that, because, after all, that is what they are attempting to do.  Instead of offering a competing product, they move to shut down all sales and offer nothing in its place.  
Link Posted: 11/22/2009 5:26:05 PM EDT
[#41]
HK IS releasing a .22lr MP-5 as well as a couple others, made by Umarex (the people who made that M4 abortion). That is probably why they are forcing GSG to stop selling them in the US. So there is no competition in the market...
Link Posted: 11/22/2009 9:56:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Originally Posted By Ghost-Shooter:
HK has never viewed the civilian market with anything less than disdain, as if mere civilians can't be trusted with their "fine" firearms.  Screw them and the horse they rode in on.  It's too bad they can't be sued for violating anti-trust laws or something like that, because, after all, that is what they are attempting to do.  Instead of offering a competing product, they move to shut down all sales and offer nothing in its place.  


I'll second that notion on the floor, and precede to strike HK from any damn gun conversation i ever have!!!!  If they just simply had a gun of there own that was in direct comp. with ATI/GSG than it would make a little since, but since this(lawsuit) was sprung well before i at least ever sniffed a rumor of them a there own .22lr mp5......HATERS if you ask me!
Link Posted: 11/22/2009 10:00:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
screw H&K.  If they would have given a rats backside about civilian/public sales  years ago they would not be having these issues.  ATI delivered a product the public likes and will buy based in a void in the market left by HK.

HK's design is decades old and really the only beef HK has is that it looks like the same gun,  despite being a completely different animal.


If only I could boycott HK,  I would. But after refusing to sell the 416 to lowly civilians I sold all my HK stuff and vowed that I would kiss Rosie O'Donnells fat, stinking ass before I'd ever buy another HK. So I can't boycott them.

I *CAN* however influence other shooters.  I teach concealed weapons permit classes,  I am also an NRA certified instructor who spends lots of time with the young, impressionable youth in the scouting program. I am also shooting coordinator at a local range as well as being my company's "gun guy" as well as my church's "gun guy".


I will continue to talk anyone and everyone I can out of buying HK crap.  The scouts specifically,  when they shoot the GSG5 and like it want to know the history of the gun etc. I explain the MP5 and how it's a visual clone of the gun and explain that it's good companies like GSG and ATI exist so you can buy that stuff because HK would not want us owning them and refuse to sell  some guns to civilians. The scouts universally agree that sucks.


so I will continue my little one man crusade to take a small chunk out of HK whenever and wherever I can.  I know it won't matter to HK at all,  but it makes me happy.  I know I have personally cost them between 4-6 K worth of revenue by talking people out of buying their stuff and steering them towards other companies and support the civilian firearms market better.  

eventually the wars will stop, and .mil sales will slow down or dry up, and HK will be courting civilians more,  well they can suck rocks.  



screw HK.


ITS NOW A 2 MAN ARMY HOMEY!!! Just tell me the beat and i'll be marching
Link Posted: 11/25/2009 8:15:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Its two totally different types of guns! Its bullshit! Are they going to sue everyone who makes a semi-auto handgun cause they all look like the USP..... or maybe colt should sue HK for the 416.....


get off your high horse HK! Make a MP5 for civi's and they'll buy it, I can guarantee it! But HK doesn't even make anything comparable that we can buy.
Link Posted: 11/30/2009 9:41:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Wouldn't this fall into the same category as the AR-15?? Did Armalite and/or Stoner ( i think that was his name) sue Colt and the other thousand companies that make AR-15 copies?? Am I missing something here??
Link Posted: 2/10/2010 12:38:52 AM EDT
[#46]
Honestly, I will  never buy another HK product as long as I live. Have sold off every HK I owned.  Gun companys should not be  doing this to each other and especially based on looks. Come on, that is BS.
Link Posted: 2/10/2010 12:47:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DLaw] [#47]
Originally Posted By Speedinc:
Its two totally different types of guns! Its bullshit! Are they going to sue everyone who makes a semi-auto handgun cause they all look like the USP..... or maybe colt should sue HK for the 416.....


get off your high horse HK! Make a MP5 for civi's and they'll buy it, I can guarantee it! But HK doesn't even make anything comparable that we can buy.


Exactly! They make the 416 a copy of an AR and that's ok, but don't you dare do the same to them oh no..

Bastards

Link Posted: 12/14/2010 1:25:16 PM EDT
[#48]
HK is full of s$%^.
Link Posted: 12/14/2010 1:33:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Originally Posted By DLaw:
Originally Posted By Speedinc:
Its two totally different types of guns! Its bullshit! Are they going to sue everyone who makes a semi-auto handgun cause they all look like the USP..... or maybe colt should sue HK for the 416.....


get off your high horse HK! Make a MP5 for civi's and they'll buy it, I can guarantee it! But HK doesn't even make anything comparable that we can buy.


Exactly! They make the 416 a copy of an AR and that's ok, but don't you dare do the same to them oh no..

Bastards

I agree...HK are a  bunch of hypocrites.

Link Posted: 12/23/2010 2:51:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By BobCole:
Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:

....but....are any of the H&K supporters willing to throw in comment wise here?  




I already did...................    

No one is a bigger kool-aid drinker for H&K than *I* am. They build THE best handguns in the world, bar none! Having said that, they screwed the pooch when they got left behind on the GSG series. Much as when Federal Ordnance, etc. came out with the G3 rifle copies for 1/4 or less than what a real H&K rifle would cost, H&K could've subbed out some mfg work to do the same but didn't.  

Heck, even Armalite made their Eagle brand AR's for a long time as a cheaper alternative to their name brand AR-10's. Now there's other .308 AR makers & I don't see Armalite sueing DPMS or whomever...................    

Anyone with the sense of a gnat knows that there's no comparasion between the GSG-5L & the MP5. Do they look similiar? Certainly. Do the work the same? Are the internals the same or even similiar? Obviously we all know that question.

I own multiple H&K's & will never part with them. Having said that, I think their lawsuit is nothing more than them getting butthurt by their engineering & marketing staff by missing the boat on making an affordable .22 cal version. Tough titty said the kitty, as we used to say in the Marines.

Tell 'em to go pound sound IMO.  

My .o2



its pound sand btw
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Tacked GSG/ATI vs H&K the Poll (Page 1 of 2)
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