User Panel
Posted: 8/1/2016 11:01:40 PM EDT
I did a search for various keywords but I didn't turn up a topic related to the one I'm posting about. I originally posted this in the AR-15 section and another member (borderpatrol) directed me here and supplied some information. I've copy/pasted his response below.
Our department has two M16A1s and as armorer, I'm doing some research on replacing or upgrading them to SBRs. Both of these rifles in particular were had under the 1033 program. Is there anybody here familiar with law enforcement Form 1 procedures? I assume Form 1 is required but, I'm not certain of the particulars regarding agency/government use. Being a small department, we're strapped for cash but want to give our guys firearms that are easier to wield. I have already suggested returning the M16s and purchasing SBRs straight out and was told no. By the way, in case you're wondering, they are both GM Hydra-Matic Division rifles that look like they might have been shot a hundred or so times and then stored. Quoted:
Check the "Armory" section for Class III questions. Being a police agency you will not be required to pay the $200 NFA fee, but probably will have to get a Form 1 approved in advance by the BATFE. ADCO Firearms, Sylvania, OH. does excellent work with quick turn around times. I like 11.5" and you will too. Check the rules you have to follow under the 1033 program, you may not be allowed to modify the rifle if the Federal government considers themselves the "owner" and that it's on "loan" to your agency. If that's the case you will have to build a complete SBR upper, after you get your approved Form 1, saving the original upper should the USA ever want their rifle back. View Quote |
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Wait are these M16A1 semi autos? Full autos can use any upper they want anyways.
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I'm pretty sure machine gun Trump's sbr you could put a 3 inch barrel on it with no extra paperwork
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At least for civilian transferable M16's, you can put whatever length upper you want on it without additional paperwork.
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Machinegun supercedes short barrel. A machinegun may have any length barrel without the need for additional paperwork. Your department may swap uppers without issue.
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Keep current rifles...buy two of these kits and install them. Put whatever uppers you want on the weapons and leave the original uppers in the armory if semi auto only is such a big deal...
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First, bear in mind that those rifles don't belong to your department- they still belong to DOD and can be recalled any time the Feds want to. You can make whatever modifications you want to them, but you should keep the original components stashed away in the (unlikely) event that you get a call and Uncle Sugar wants his guns back.
Since these are DOD guns and they are already machine guns, the barrel length on them is totally irrelevant. Slap a replacement upper on them or rebarrel them to whatever barrel length you want. A lot of PDs do that and they disable the full-auto also to turn them into patrol carbines. It's still a lot cheaper than buying an SBR. |
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They are owned by the us gov and on loan to your department technically. No need to form 1 as SBR, MG can have any length barrel. Keep it simple, take off the current uppers and store somewhere for if/when you have to return the MG. then buy/build your own short barreled upper of your choice to use on them. Best of luck and happy shooting!
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Well, that is a discussion I had with my chief. When these firearms were sent to the department through the 1033 program, long before I was here, they came with a U shaped insert between the lower receiver and the pistol grip. This insert had a tab that prevented the fire selector from being able to rotate to full auto. They have never removed the insert, I forget the name of the thing, out of NFA concerns.
Are they machine guns if they came from the 1033 program like that? By that, I mean their classification through ATF/1033. We're trying to find answers but, we're having a tough time getting responses to our inquiries from both the BATFE and through 1033 reps, I can't say that this is a huge surprise to me. That's why I came here, to see if I could gather more information and maybe find something somewhere I missed in my own research. Other departmental armorers in my area have not responded to my emails yet and the ones I have spoken with aren't very knowledgeable on NFA items. The thing is, there are plenty of online resources on civilian NFA items but, not much in the way of information pertaining to law enforcement. Once we have the blessing to do so, we'll be buying new uppers and storing the current ones. |
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I am a Deputy Sheriff and am one of the people on the department that has to help keep track of the 1033 stuff.
One, you can take out the insert. You can modify the rifles in any way you want, so long as you retain the OEM parts and are able to put it back to the original configuration if/when they go back to the federal.gov. Most of ours are plaine jane 1/7 twist 20" A1 rifles, with the selector in full use of semi automatic or full automatic. We also have one or two that are the 1/12 twist, but I don't remember if those are department owned or 1033, but we have to be careful of the ammo we buy because anything heavier than 55 grain will start tumbling (I'd personally be okay getting rid of those just so we don't have to worry about it, as we have a bunch of M855 on hand). As I said in your other thread, I'd buy new uppers for them and swap those out, keeping the original uppers in a secure location. |
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Thanks for the response AJE, my chief believes we cannot remove the insert, I'll read the 1033 agreement when I go in later today. I don't disbelieve you, I just haven't read it myself as I was handed this project recently.
We're still trying to get in touch with someone who can give us an "official" answer. I appreciate everyone's response to this. |
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They are machine guns, they have the sear pin hole, regardless of what extra dodads are installed or removed.
You can use whatever barrel length you want on them. Civilian NFA does not even apply to these firearms, they are DOD property and exempted from the NFA. |
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Is this another cop hate thread?
Never ask ARFCOM for legal advice. |
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Nah, this is more of a "do some research and see what others are saying" kind of thing and I'll see where that information leads me. No offense to anyone here.
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Quoted:
Thanks for the response AJE, my chief believes we cannot remove the insert, I'll read the 1033 agreement when I go in later today. I don't disbelieve you, I just haven't read it myself as I was handed this project recently. We're still trying to get in touch with someone who can give us an "official" answer. I appreciate everyone's response to this. View Quote I don't blame you... please let me know if I'm wrong! My dept just ordered some new rifles, so it wouldn't hurt my feelings if we sent all of ours back and I didn't have to keep track of them anymore. |
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Many depts want FA disabled, which is probably why they are shipping them with the little restrictors on there.
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Quoted:
Well, that is a discussion I had with my chief. When these firearms were sent to the department through the 1033 program, long before I was here, they came with a U shaped insert between the lower receiver and the pistol grip. This insert had a tab that prevented the fire selector from being able to rotate to full auto. They have never removed the insert, I forget the name of the thing, out of NFA concerns. Are they machine guns if they came from the 1033 program like that? By that, I mean their classification through ATF/1033. We're trying to find answers but, we're having a tough time getting responses to our inquiries from both the BATFE and through 1033 reps, I can't say that this is a huge surprise to me. That's why I came here, to see if I could gather more information and maybe find something somewhere I missed in my own research. Other departmental armorers in my area have not responded to my emails yet and the ones I have spoken with aren't very knowledgeable on NFA items. The thing is, there are plenty of online resources on civilian NFA items but, not much in the way of information pertaining to law enforcement. Once we have the blessing to do so, we'll be buying new uppers and storing the current ones. View Quote Regardless of whether the selector is block, autosear removed/semi fire control group is installed, those are machine guns due to the fact that the hole for the autosear axis pin was drilled and they were manufactured as factory machineguns. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for the response AJE, my chief believes we cannot remove the insert, I'll read the 1033 agreement when I go in later today. I don't disbelieve you, I just haven't read it myself as I was handed this project recently. We're still trying to get in touch with someone who can give us an "official" answer. I appreciate everyone's response to this. View Quote You most certainly can remove the selector restriction. They are machineguns on loan from the federal government. They just happen to have the selector restrictor. |
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By the way, in case you're wondering, they are both GM Hydra-Matic Division rifles that look like they might have been shot a hundred or so times and then stored.
Please, a pic of these would be so nice. |
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I'll get a picture of them up tomorrow for those interested.
Also, it appears as if y'all are correct regarding the removal of the full-auto-neutering device. Now I'm just waiting for final word... Again, I appreciate everyone for chiming in, it helped. |
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Idk if it'll help now if I chime in, but...
AJE (and others) are correct. I am the LESO/RTD accountable person and armorer for my agency. Before that I was a gunsmith for FFL/SOT manufacturers. You will not find anything in the LESO State Plan of Operations agreement, other than something to the effect of requiring your agency to maintain control of all the original parts, as you were advised above. LESO allows modification of the weapons. They are legally considered machineguns (or Title II or NFA firearms) due to the receivers. This is their BATFE classification. They are DOD weapons still owned by the federal government and exempt from the NFA, however, per LESO guidelines ours are registered with the ATF on either Form 10 or Form 5. It is up to your agency whether they're configured to fire fully automatically or not. This is only authorized for SWAT members at my agency. I just picked up 15 additional M16's from the state police armory last week. They had already installed AR-15 safeties in them, but each came with its original selector and autosear as well. I do not remove the autosears when I swap the safeties, but their spring leg can be aggravating if not held out of the way. I just loosen the grip screw and it only takes a minute to swap them. I strive not to do that where the patrolmen can see how easy it is. lol The selectors are all accounted for in armory storage, but obviously an M16 selector isn't difficult to come by, nor is it a controlled part. None of the M16 parts are restricted on the open market. Weapons modification should be addressed via policy restrictions and disciplinary action IMHO. No, it's not technically illegal for end users to convert them back to auto, but it could be a policy violation. Somewhere I have a document detailing the nomenclature for that stupid aluminum selector block. It is crap. It snags on slings and other gear and is generally a liability. They can break off (or sometimes people break them off) and then it's a sharp crappy piece. They also interfere with aftermarket grips. The National Guard used to retrofit them after big Army got the M16A2 and they didn't want troops firing auto anymore. I've never seen them come with LESO M16 and M16A1 rifles, but they used to be available to government armorers for free by writing to some obscure Army program. Anyway my point is that if you want to restrict them to semi-automatic fire, just install a semi-auto AR safety and be done with it. It won't snag, aftermarket grips work, and there will be no confusion about the weapons' capabilities when it stops firmly in the fire (semi) position. It actually makes it more difficult for the user to render auto again than by breaking off the tab on the silly block. That Specialized Armament conversion kit is just a big waste of money. All you need to swap is the safety. Speaking of money... We are also very low-budget. I was fortunately able to acquire some CQBR complete upper receiver groups which had been surplussed by NSWC Crane. They were in Anniston, AL and I was able to drive there and hand pick them. I got enough to convert our M16's into 10.3" carbines for all of SWAT and patrol. Thread/pics/It happened. We only paid $6 each, but that's because someone had listed the item NSN as a stripped flat top upper receiver, so that's what they charged us for. In general, we pay 10% of initial DOD acquisition cost (or current unit replacement cost) on any RTD items. This is certainly not limited to weapons parts. For small arms in my state, we are charged $100 per M14 or M16 rifle and $50 per M1911A1 pistol. Shotguns are not available now, but if some old ones are transferred from another agency they're $75. They're apparently not transferring M79's anymore, but I think some agencies still have them from when the getting was good. Prior to scoring the CQBR uppers, I was building carbines using 14.5" M4A1 SOCOM barrels, which are easy to find in RTD and frequently available. I talked the agency into purchasing carbine stock assemblies. Initially we had purchased a few stripped uppers also. Flat top uppers (M4A1 and M16A4) are about the rarest item to find in RTD. We just got really lucky. The Condition Codes don't mean anything, although they're supposed to. The CQBR barrels were supposedly rejected (per a couple hang tags) from failing a TE gauge, but so far they're all good. If one is shot-out, I can replace its barrel with an M4 barrel we already had. Those barrels can be shortened too. They're not under any restriction. My personal theory is that someone didn't wish to rebuild them into Block II CQBR uppers with the RIS II, so they just rejected the whole lot. (Not that I mind, of course). You'll see things too, like the TACOM M4A1 PIP guys sending take-off H buffers into DRMO under the H2 buffer NSN. All kinds of things get entered incorrectly. (Just get extra H buffers, and you can swap the tungsten weights to make whatever buffer is needed). Sometimes good optics are available, but mostly they're junk. We got 12 Aimpoint Comp M4 (M68 CCO) sights from RRAD for $33 and they were all in excellent condition. Some items such as plain old double-heatshield M4 handguards, Remington 870 synthetic LE fore ends, and RAS rail covers they have at Columbus LTS and those are always available. They'll even pack and ship FedEx for you if you email them an account number. We recently received some UDT life preservers from them for our boat crews and SAR operations. If you want some PEQ IR lasers/illuminators, those are sometimes found also. DLA/DRMO will not insert batteries to check function. You can go on-base during the weekly RTD screening days/hours and screen property yourself at any listed DRMO. Working NVD's are another unicorn item. I've seen individual image intensifier tubes listed at distant locations, but not in-person. One of the NV vendors kindly typed up a list of all relevant NSNs including parts, for LE searches. Different made a similar list for M14 parts and accessories. We have 8 Sage EBR stocks waiting for when they finally approve our M14 transfers. That was probably more than you wanted to know. |
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Quoted:
Actually, this was incredibly useful. I may message you for more details on what you did. I'll post pictures tonight of the two M16s, I assume Dropbox image hosting will work with this site? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Idk if it'll help now if I chime in, but... Actually, this was incredibly useful. I may message you for more details on what you did. I'll post pictures tonight of the two M16s, I assume Dropbox image hosting will work with this site? I have been using this site for hosting images, works quite well: https://postimg.org/ |
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I use tinypic.com but there are several free options. Yes send me a PM or email. Glad to help.
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You used the wrong Source in the image box.
Use this: https://s19.postimg.org/q7w0y3zhv/IMG_2071.jpg |
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Do you have any of the other side of the receivers?
The front and underside of the magwell would be nice to see as well. |
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It's unlikely that commercial M4 stock was swapped before it left a DOD facility. Some 0000 steel wool, lots of oil, and small rapid circles with moderate pressure will make short work of that surface rust. I use RIG on the outside surfaces to prevent that. It stays way better than CLP.
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Quoted:
It's unlikely that commercial M4 stock was swapped before it left a DOD facility. Some 0000 steel wool, lots of oil, and small rapid circles with moderate pressure will make short work of that surface rust. I use RIG on the outside surfaces to prevent that. It stays way better than CLP. View Quote I thought it looked odd too...I expected a fixed stock... Until I checked our copy of the posting for the rifles our chief made when he got them...and sure enough it shows them with the collapsible stocks on. Some of the parts look better than those on my rifles...others look like they've been chewed on by a rabid robot dog... |
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I was pretty impressed with these rifles...until I looked over the photo thread at the top of this topic...now they just look sad...
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Quoted:
I know you guys on this part of the forum will hate me for saying this but, I'm promoting neutering them with a semi-auto only fire control group and storing the current setup. As one person said, that little tab is more of a frustration than anything. View Quote Simply replacing the selector with a semi selector will do the trick. Can also remove and store the auto sears, so that they can't be rendered full auto again just by removing the disconnectors. |
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Toss the restrictor plate and A2 upper into a bag. Convince the Dept to buy MK18 uppers, optics, and lights. Train.
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So, we've got our answers. Now I'm off to find some uppers and play the official waiting game.
I appreciate everyone's input and willingness to talk to a new member as they did. |
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